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Hobby etiquette. Where has it gone?
Short vent. I have been trading cards in the Hobby since I was just 8 years old in the late 70's. It used to be a smaller world of buyers and a much smaller world of sellers for pre-war cards. I used to be mostly just a buyer and now I am just as much a seller as a buyer but always try and treat buyers as I would wanted to be treated when I am buying cards. I always put myself i their shoes.
When I reach out to a seller to find out what I can buy a certain card by making an offer or asking for their best fair price I try and do so with COURTESY and with words not just "$xxxx?" Or "I'll offer $xxxxx." (70% of comps). When a buyer reaches out to me, I try and counter at a fair price and give some data as to why the price is fair. Lately, I am finding more an more that buyers will ask for better scans or your best price and I am always quick to reply with what they want but then they will just GHOST. Not even a "Thank you for the offer but it doesn't work for me." or "Thank you for your time..." etc. Basic COURTESY and TREAT OTHERS AS YOU WISH TO BE TREATED should be thought of when dealing with other people in the hobby. If you are a buyer or a seller and you engage another member on the forum please have the courtesy to reply when they give you an offer or vice versa. It is SIMPLE human kindness and it goes a long way. Obviously, 90% of people are awesome on here. If this applies to you....Be better. |
I agree, Geoff.
I think it goes with the territory of how the hobby has gone, especially the younger generations. It's almost always about the quick flip for money and much less about collecting. I might be wrong but the guys in it only for the money are mostly the culprits. It's just a business to them. :eek: . |
If the first thing they ask is your best price I would just ghost them right off the bat, they are trolling, if someone’s truly interested they know what they want to pay and they can make an offer - You already set a price it’s their turn
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I find myself in this situation a lot as a buyer. If I engage a seller usually on here or the FB groups and request better pics or ask a question that extends the transaction a little bit, but ultimately back out for whatever reason I always say thank you for the pics or whatever it is I requested. For the simple reason I may circle back and end up buying at a later time. It’s a small world here in our hobby.
I typically don’t buy much on eBay & keep it under two fiddy so I don’t die in authentication process. Plus there’s not a whole ton of negotiations in that small bracket I work in. Danny |
this is the way the world has become...not just the hobby.
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Offers
I've gotten away from making offers anymore. It always seems like a get a diatribe back about how much they have into the card, or something like that, even with solid VCP comps to back up the offer. I could care less what you have into it...your poor decision is not mine to fix. When somebody prices a card now and says they are taking offers, I just wait for them to cut the price instead, until it reaches my would-be offer.
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Related, but I am often amused even if just showing off cards on social media - how quickly I get some version of "HOWMUCH" thrown out in a comment. It's so rude.
No, mouth breathers - not everything you see a picture of is always for sale, but thank you for playing. :D |
It is worse at shows. This may come as a shock to some of the newbs out there, but there is a level of consideration and politeness towards your fellow show-goers that is expected of you when you are at a table. If a collector is looking through a box it is rude to look at the same row in the box ahead of him. He got there first, so be an adult and let him finish. This has a practical reason, too: every time you pull cards out of that row you lose the other guy’s place. I was a hockey goalie as a kid, and when I had some bozo doing that to me at a show, I was seconds away from throwing an elbow to his ribs to clear the crease. I nearly got into a fight at the Natty because a guy tried to pull away a box I was looking through. The newbs need to learn that a little courtesy is the social lubricant that makes it a community. Don’t behave like you are a Vandal pillaging Rome, show some basic consideration for your fellow collectors.
In my view, the main reason that some people act rudely in the hobby when offering is that those people don’t know how to negotiate properly. That is a characteristic that many Americans share and is one that they need to get past if they are going to thrive in today’s hobby. Polite negotiating is not disreputable or wrong, it is a necessary skill set. |
I like watching vendor POV videos on YouTube where dealers work with the youth on how to properly negotiate. Adults that exhibit abhorrent etiquette will most likely only learn by being shut down enough times. It is our job as adults, however, to help educate the youth on hobby and negotiating etiquette, doing so with patience and understanding.
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Every generation bemoans the manners of the next one, it seems.
From 1960: Kids, I don't know what's wrong with these kids today Kids, who can understand anything they say? Kids, they are disobedient, disrespectful oafs Noisy, crazy, sloppy, lazy, loafers And while we're on the subject Kids, you can talk and talk till your face is blue Kids, but they still do just what they want to do Why can't they be like we were, perfect in every way? What's the matter with kids today? |
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Well I certainly didn't post this to be trolled and I wouldn't be rude and call someone out like that on the forum but now that you brought it up, let's shed light on the specific interaction. I had a bunch of worch cigars listed and you proposed a trade of some 50's and 60s old grade cards that honestly, I really wasn't interested in. You wanted full blown retail for your cards and in comparison wanted to assess mine at about 70% of value. Your statement was "that's the worst trade offer that I have ever received." Well, I didn't propose a trade...You did. I posted my cards to sell not trade and sold all but one. I have literally had ONE deal interaction with you and I save all of my PMs so am happy to post them. I have probably bought almost 500 cards off of this site over the past year and I strive to be fair. This was simply meant to be a dialogue about courtesy and kindness in communication and you just FAILED the test. Maybe look in the mirror before attacking a fellow member of the forum. I don't take failed trades PERSONALLY as they happen and I certainly wouldn't treat a fellow forum member this way over a failed trade. Finally, I see that you live in Chicago. I will be at the Sports Spectacular next month in Rosemont. Would love to buy you a beer or a coffee and meet you face to face. With a little effort, I think you and I could be friends as obviously we both share the same passion for cardboard and have both likely spent a good chunk of our kids' inheritance on it. Thank you |
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The vendor POV videos are excellent and very useful. I've learned a lot personally on how to deal with both buyers and sellers by watching them. At the card shop I work at on weekends, we also take it upon ourselves to educate kids on etiquette. Cultivating that aspect of the hobby will go a long way in maintaining the hobby as a whole. |
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I would suggest doing it for some clarification, but I also would suggest not doing it because it's tiring to sit through...
...but if you look at videos from other "flipping" and profit-taking hobby endeavors that are similar...specifically jumping to mind, the sneaker community...some of this stuff becomes more clear. The sellers are jerks. The buyers are jerks. Everyone is acting like they're being robbed half the time and wasting their time the other half... Transactions are quick, emotionless, and painless...or quick, mean, and dismissive. Buyers and sellers act like they have limited time to deal with anyone and they act like everyone is trying to dupe them. Some of it is fake and created for views, but it's led to influencing the culture. Just like it's always been in the card hobby, some people are only here to flip and make money. Fine...but some of the people in the hobby are adjacent to or coming from more "hostile" parts of the flipping world. |
The saddest thing to me are the youngins who don’t know a dollar sign goes BEFORE the number. We’ve clearly failed them, including their inability to sign their name, so we must deal with the repercussions, especially their shorthand communication techniques.
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What's the tale, nightingale? |
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Well said. |
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I don't recall in the 70's, when we were riding our bikes in the neighborhood, and a car was coming, that we would remain in the middle of the road and stare the driver down. We moved on our own and waived to the driver. |
It's not about the hobby. It's just the direction our modern society has gone. And it's not about a lack of ettiquatte or decency. Because as the 21st century has unfolded, and the world has become more digital with vastly more access to communication platforms, the short-form communication you bemoan has become normal. So what was considered poor etiguette to us is considered appropriate ettiguette to the current generation. They are actually acting appropriately under the norms of the society they were raised in. So it's hard to hold it against them that they don't conform to our norms, because that is a society they have never lived in. We can accept that things change and adapt, or we can shake our fists at the clouds. The latter just makes us miserable. Just understand, when they talk/text/message that way, it is not their intent to be rude. It's literally how they have been taught to communicate. It's no different than a person from a culture who requires you to take your shoes off when you enter a house. If you have never heard that etiquette, you might unkowingly break it. Does that make you a bad person? Or should the person who holds to that etiquette be patient and understanding as both of you try to adapt to one another?
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Humility is becoming increasingly more difficult to find. |
I rarely see people helping each other out. Those stories are far and few between.
I have a "friend" that I have had dealings with for over 20 years. He had a very unique card that he knew I would like to buy. I asked him over the years to just let me know when it would come up for sale so I can first crack. Well, earlier this year, it came to auction in a major auction house. When I asked him about it, he stated "Well, I didn't want to squeeze you on price, so I just sent it to the auction house to sell". Sigh, no, you wanted to maximize all the profit and not give me the opportunity to buy. |
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I don't think ive done a deal yet with Geoff, but i see his posts and interactions frequently here and on FB and find him to be reasonable, fair, and friendly....just the kind of person you would want to deal with. To be attacked directly in this particular thread is just so ironic I first thought it might be a joke.
I mostly hang around the t206 threads here and on fb, and find those groups of collectors (which do span all ages) to be 99% reasonable and friendly. When i venture into other more modern threads it can get dicier, so i don't disagree with the assessments. But let's not let the actions of few spoil the experiences of the many. It's sadly a part of modern society and social media influence...and our general segmentation into us vs. them...algorithms focus on bombarding people with confirmation of their existing viewpoints which pushes them further to whichever side they start near. I'll stop short of further analysis and "committing sociology". Theres always a chance to help teach others, and maybe a few can be affected. |
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I always show up for free beer. Drop me a note and let me know when you're in town. Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk |
Seems like if one is having so many negative experiences as to warrant the creation of a thread, at least part of it can be attributed to their own actions or style of conduct in the hobby.
Reminds me of the guy who was ranting about having 60 sales canceled by the ebay authenticity guarantee and thinks he is absoloutely not any part of the problem. |
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I think the difference between the terse younger generations with their poor communication skills and the older generations who exhibit courtesy and empathy is the advent of cell phones, video gaming and social media.
They text rather than talk, they shorten commonly used words into abbreviations, and they won't even answer the phone if they don't recognize the caller. Part of the reason is that life is faster-paced today, so multi-tasking has become a necessity. I never even heard the term "multi-tasking" until the early 2000s, come to think of it. I do agree there is a bigger divide between the generations today than ever before. But that's likely because (for the first time in our history) cell phones and social media were part of their up-bringing and childhood... making it more difficult for older people with good manners to relate to them. |
Geoff, it has always been a pleasure to deal with you. And there is nothing wrong with bartering on the price, that’s been a part of collecting since time began….as others have said, be respectful, maybe even explain why you can only pay X for the card to the dealer ( again, explain, not say , “ it’s a piece of s- - t” ) and let them decide, because, at the end of the day, it’s still their card and apparently , you wanted it for some reason. I always thank the seller, even if they aren’t the friendliest on their end. They took the time to respond regardless of whether I like the response or not. Those sellers that just say a flat , curt “ I don’t deal” “ my price is firm” , great. I like dealing with folks and when I sell a card, I pay forward the favor of a seller that gave me a break in the price. For those that don’t want to deal with you, maybe don’t go back to them…….why go thru that frustration. There are PLENTY of righteous sellers ( tons here) who will deal with you, so let the “ I don’t deal” guy sit on that card. Life’s too short and there are too many out there who literally want to sell their cards at a reasonable price…..and Geoff, you are certainly one of the latter, always enjoy dealing with you.
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[emoji106] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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It is his card and he can do what he pleases, I just thought he would give me the courtesy. Lesson learned. |
Just curious
Just wondering….. did you bid on the card at auction? If so, were you the high bidder? I ask because if his final sale price was way higher than what you would have paid ( like double or triple) maybe he just didn’t want to make you angry with too high an ask…… although I do not like the way he handled it. I have a pretty rare card that a member asked me about 3 years ago….. I’m in the process of making a deal with him now directly rather than selling it elsewhere because I know he really wants the card to complete a set and helping each other out is a big part of the fun of this hobby. I’m hoping that will be my legacy when it’s time for my final curtain call.
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It definitely isnt just the “youth” of the hobby.
Anyone who interacts with people a lot knows that the majority of assholes aren’t the younger ones. |
Some of you guys have nailed it!!
It's funny, but I have an ongoing Net54 thread about my observations from the front lines of card shows, and I can say without question that 99% of the showgoers and dealers I approach have the same look on their faces (as they look up from their phones) when I start engaging them, "Wait, is this human being actually trying to talk to me in person...and not text...or Insta or Facebook me??!! I'm not ready for this. What am I supposed to do???" :D:eek::D |
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There are still many good folks out there. Also many good FB groups outside of here with good followings and members. Weed out the bad and deal with the good..
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That's a very good point about communications etiquette being generational. Still, there has to be some common sense regard for others. When my mother died, I was onstage at a comedy club doing a set (she wasn't there, in case you maybe thought I killed her with bad jokes) and had my phone off for the show. Since the dementia facility couldn't reach me right away, the Millennial hospice nurse thought that "your mother has passed away" was an acceptable text to send me to notify me of her death. No. That's like breaking up with a post-it on the bathroom mirror. "I will be late for dinner" is a text. "Your mother is dead" is a phone call. Now, when I tell that to anyone over 40 the response is horrified; under 40 they say "so what happened next?" Doesn't faze them in the slightest.
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There are plenty of good people in the hobby just as there always has been. And there are plenty of money-grubbing scumbags too — just as there always has been.
We have people on the board who look out for each other and there are people who try to resell a card for 3x what it sold for in a public auction a week earlier. Same as it ever was. Be a positive in the hobby and usually people tend to treat you better. |
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It is just a really sour time in the hobby. |
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When people inquire about cards, they might be evaluating a potential purchase, or they might simply be gathering information. You have a PSA 5 green Cobb? What's the lowest you'd sell it for (I'm not a buyer, just keeping track of where the market is at on that key card.) There are a lot of people who enjoy this hobby but don't have the money to buy most, or any, of the things they would really like to own. But they can derive enjoyment by window-shopping, and maybe one day a real bargain will come along. I also think that hobby courtesy cuts both ways. There have been times when I've wanted to discuss collectibles a little bit with a seller, and received a terse, brief, rejection. But there have also been times when a customer has wanted to settle in and tell me about his fond memories of opening packs of cards as a kid, when I am busy with other things/thoughts and frankly, am not interested in his childhood reminiscences. What I learned long ago is to just let people do their thing, whatever it is, and not be overly annoyed by their behavior. Maybe they can't afford something they really want, so obtaining a scan of it is the closest they can come. Maybe they want to participate in the hobby, or interact with people in the hobby. Maybe they're just bored, or lonely. Maybe their dog and/or best friend recently died and they're looking for a distraction from that. Bottom line is unless someone is trying to cheat me, or being ridiculous (like offering $500 on a $1300 item) I try to remember they are a person navigating through life, and I have no idea what their goals or circumstances are. I certainly don't get overly annoyed. |
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Great thread! Enjoyed reading the different views on this topic.
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I need to make a bumper sticker from that. Well Said! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
I do think there's a bit of a generational disconnect between the newer and older collectors of this hobby. Many of the younger generation not looking at it as a hobby, and looking at it as a vehicle to make a profit is certainly part of the problem, but I'm sure some older folks view it that way as well.
I think a good chunk of the issue certainly comes from technology and how many of the younger generations were/are raised. Short and terse interactions were pointed out already, but many of them are quite frankly obsessed with their phones and rather communicate that way, than through in person conversation. I work with children and it's startling how few of them nowadays can pay attention to things that take up more than 15 seconds of their time. We no longer emphasize in person communication skills as a society. We no longer emphasize empathy, in my opinion, either. Two things we are sorely lacking. Do I think nastiness can transcend the generations? Absolutely. I've seen it occur all the time. Though I am very fearful for what's coming down the pipe in terms of the newer generations and their socialization skills. |
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On the etiquette part I love how people are OK to purchase from you but send a detailed list on how they want you to ship the item. They must think the seller has never shipped an item before. On eBay they get instantly blocked because they are the type that generally cause most of the problems. |
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Now we just check each others' ebay feedback rating. P.S. The correct answer was Cheryl Ladd. |
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