Happy Festivus! Airing of Grievances 2024 Edition
 

December 23 is Festivus! Time for the annual airing of grievances. What grinds your gears in the collecting hobby?

Here is the 2022 post: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=329338

Here is the 2023 post: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ghlight=airing

For me this year, it was the Memory Lane tragedy wayyyy back in May 2024: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ht=memory+lane

My grievance is not with the shipment of cards to a Best Western Plus (which it could be) but rather the fact that a major auction house in 2024 knowingly ran an auction with items that they were not in possession of when the auction ended. And the defending of this practice? Yeesh. I have seen a lot of lows in the hobby over the my collecting career, but this might be the lowest.

What’s yours?

I'm no fan of ML, but as previously stated I don't get the "grievance" or whatever you want to call it. Who was hurt? Even if the cards had not been recovered, who would have been hurt? This was done out of pragmatic considerations and because it was better than the alternatives, not to defraud anyone. Or maybe ML even knew the cards had been recovered before they could say so publicly, for all we know. Hardly an annual highlight IMO. Not in a hobby where countless altered cards are being bought and sold for huge sums every single day, and new ones being made I should add.

With the abundance of asshats and crooks in the hobby, it is so hard to choose just one, but let me 'honor' all of the sneak thieves, burglars, opportunistic thieves, and car robbers who have plagued card shows all year. It seems like you cannot go a single big show without someone getting ripped off. It has basically chased me out of the desire to set up at shows, which is a shame because I generally enjoy having a table and looked forward to doing it more often in retirement.

Honorable mention to people shit-posting the hobby. If card collecting sucks so much, stop doing it, or if not, at least STFU about it, Debbie Downer.

You must get it, because you and every single person in that thread knew, and knew why, it would be wrong for me to do the exact same thing for the exact same reason. Not a single poster thought it would be okay for me to do the same thing. You all just wanted a different standard for the auction house run by a convicted fraudster that was not applicable to everyone else. If you know and know why it is wrong for me to do it, then you must know why it is wrong. Is it the worst behavior in card land in 2024? No, but you all surely get why some people objected and held a consistent standard with carve outs for certain corporations and persons.

Scotch Tape on......welll, damned near anything card related.

B.T.

I don’t have any grievances really this year, just saddened by all the thefts in person at shows and the break-ins of vehicles in transit to and from shows. People for the most part have been pretty nice on the board. There hasn’t been any major battles between members which is a good thing :-).

Also, let’s not forget all the greats who died this year, which will be missed.

It's very different for a business that has consignors it will potentially need to reimburse, an ongoing auction with hundreds of bidders, and an insurer (or more than one) it potentially will need to deal with and agree with (or not) on values of stolen cards. It's not at all the same thing as one guy selling one card on the BST. Just because you can construct some overly simplistic analogy does not make the analogy meaningful. Again, who was, or could have been, hurt in this massive outrageous fraud?

Note these differences are claims about convenience. We all know that something is not okay just because honesty might be less convenient. That convenience is magnified the more items there are, surely. But you would also surely not accept ethics by convenience for other issues.

We all know they did not have an insurance claim that required hosting a fraudulent auction, as so many people claimed. I am still to this day, after like 1,110 posts and dozens of emails with people over it, still awaiting a single solitary example of any insurance policy from all of human history that requires hosting fake auctions to value items :rolleyes:. We all know perfectly well they could be valued another way.

If you want to have a standard where it is okay to do because the winners did not get their money stolen, frankly, that would be understandable and I would simply disagree. But that was not and is not the line - because you all know 100% perfectly well why it would be wrong for me to do the exact same thing. If this was your sincere view, you all wouldn't have understood why it would be wrong for me to do it. The thread could have been like 200 posts if you guys had been consistent, instead of insisting on inconsistent standards to justify it only for certain people.

What about collectors bidding on cards that ML didn't have? What if collectors had bid on those cards and not bid on other cards in the auction? If the cards had not been found, collectors would have passed on other cards they wanted to think they bought a card that they would never get. Consigners cards may have sold for less due to people bidding on these stolen cards.

+1

I think, at least, we would all call continuing the auctions without cards in hand "deceptive."

Some will go on to rationalize it.

And if they shut the auction down, or took every stolen card off the table, both collectors and consignors are deprived of potential purchases/sales if the cards are found, and if they aren't, ML owes 100 card owners money and the valuation process starts at ground zero and it well could have worked to the disadvantage of consignors. It's a no win.

Straw man. The issue is not did the policy require it. The issue is, was it a pragmatic thing to do under the circumstances to establish values for a worst case scenario.

I’ve noticed a few members here who frequently post about how much they despise the hobby and are done with it, because they are evidently so through with the hobby that they can’t stop posting about it.

You will find that in a situation, most fraudulent responses to it are easier to do than honest ones. That does not justify it, and you all would not think that for other things. Nor does it render you incapable of "get[ting] the "grievance" or whatever you want to call it", when you actually understand it perfectly well because you knew why it would be wrong for other people to do it. Not a single person ever argued that it would be easier to be honest. Your argument was not, until possibly right now months later, that the bullshit was merely more convenient. Your argument up to just a few minutes ago was explicitly that you did not even get what the grievance is - even though you get it 100% perfectly fine when it's not Memory Lane doing it. If you want to reduce your position to this much lesser one, I would still posit the apparent violations of state law it seems they committed in doing it would render it not pragmatic or advisable, but that's another issue.

Not just the part i made bold but an owner of some of those stolen cards posted in the original thread that he was told by the AH both the PoPo and the insurance company told them to run the auction. The naysayers completely ignored that post even when I pointed it out more than once. But hay what do the professionals know?:rolleyes:

I get what you and others think is technically wrong with it. But if the intent was not to hurt anyone and no one in fact would have been defrauded no matter what the outcome, I'm not understanding the magnitude of the grievance. I mean the OP is calling it the worst thing that happened in the hobby all year (worse than all the actual thefts? really?)and maybe you agree. Again, IMO, it's a complex problem with various interested parties and without a great solution, but applying simple moral platitudes is not necessarily the best way to look at it I don't think. You can repeat the "they sold what they didn't have" mantra 1000 times but in these unique circumstances it doesn't really tell the whole story.

Right. And if that happened, the fact that it might not have been an express requirement of the policy (Greg's favorite straw man) again is not the issue. Under these circumstances, an insured is likely to do what its insurer requests. And you can see why the insurer would have requested it, to simplify the potential upcoming claims process. Best case, the cards are found and no claims are made; worst case you get valuations.

I’ll go with just about everyone’s favorite:

The cards are too damn high (priced)!!!

Just seems like to get anything nice requires a 6-figure outlay these days. And I struggle to convince myself that it’s a good idea to part with so much cash for so little in return.

So I keep biding my time, hoping that someday the everything rally will end. And in the meantime, just keep plugging away towards my retirement goals.

Dude if you can't find anything nice for under 6 figures, you must be collecting some very very elite cards. :)

Six figures for anything nice ?! You must have expensive taste in cards :D

+1 to your overall point though.

"Grinds your gears"; it might be this one even though it is nowhere near the top of the pile of things that are 'wrong'. For example, the robberies. But robberies don't 'grind my gears', because I take that as an unfortunate part of humanity that is not going to change. There will always be theft in civilization, and there will always be a small number of people operating outside of the law or decency for a quick take. It's materially worse, but it's not like I expect better from those people. A few shitbags are always going to commit theft, utopia doesn't exist.


The ML incident was so frustrating/funny because of how people who knew perfectly well exactly how and why it was wrong for others to do (again - you all, 100%, know exactly why and how it is wrong for me to do - and thus you know perfectly well why it is wrong for someone else as well), rushed to carry water for Memory Lane with blatantly and openly double standard opinions. Usually when an auction house does something wrong, somebody goes 'my bad', and it ends with a mixed 'well they shouldn't have done it, but we mostly recognize that' to end it, usually with great reluctance to criticize very much, but not endorsing the act. This one was just so transparent an example of the broad hobby impulse to justify anything corporations or 'authorities' in the hobby do, even if it required blatant inconsistency and absolute bullshit (like the obviously fictional insurance policy that could have forced them to run a fraudulent auction so many in that thread clung too - no such policy has ever existed anywhere in human history). That's the gear grinding element - the transparency of the wagon circling of utter bullshit by the vast majority of this board and the double standards while pretending they couldn't figure out why anyone would even object. The act itself doesn't get anywhere near the list, but the response was pretty bad. This response would have been entirely different if it wasn't an organization that it was desirable to defend. If some person or group undesirable did it, it would have been unanimous or near-unanimous against, and it wouldn't even be mentioned in this thread, much less immediately become the central focus. To this day you all are still pretending it's perfectly acceptable and fine - but only for the right people, of course. That will always grind gears, and always has. It's not the original thing that was done, but the circle of bullshit trying to justify what was obviously and transparently wrong.


We even had blatant screeching and religious discrimination (seriously!) and shitting on the doors (or I guess anyone poorer than the poster) in an obvious effort to get it locked to shut down conversation (credit to the board for not censoring it) from corporate suck-ups. I received more angry emails for being against this farce, for the blatantly obvious reason that it is dishonest and a lie, than for the covid thread, the thread where I advocated reading bills and read the Florida bill, and any other time I've had an unpopular opinion. Still amazes me that that was the one that made the most people endorse deception, fraud and lies - even as 100% of them know exactly why it was wrong. That's the gear grinding - the transparency of the extreme dishonesty from people who did not need to be dishonest or endorse this cynical display of dishonesty.

My grievance is that this guy gets on almost every thread on the main page and says something negative or argumentative. 32k posts

For me, personally, it is what shipping fees have become. Especially purchasing from U.S. sellers and the use of the global shipping program.
I've cried about these fees before but they are seriously getting out of hand. $35-$50 dollars+, U.S., to ship one card that can cost a 1/3 of the shipping fee.

It's rare now, unless it is from a CDN seller, to find shipping less than $25-$30 dollars, which, of course, has really deterred me from looking at cards from many U.S. sellers.

But, all that aside, Merry Christmas everyone. :)

Six figures will buy a collector some nice cards on the non-sports section of the hobby. Apparently, not an unpunched 1932 U.S. Caramel McKinley, but some nice stuff nonetheless. ;)

+1 on this.

+1 on this also

They could have run them in another auction when the cards were recovered. If not, the card owners are reimbursed by ML and their insurance company.

Tired of all the people that overhype everything in the (what's left of it) hobby. Many times it just doesn't seem like much of a hobby anymore.

When's somebody going to bring up PSA's wonderful customer service? Or grading price structure? Or lack of true accountability for grading undersized cards with razor sharp corners and calling them mint.

Attachment 644668

As they say - every thread should have a picture of a card:

Agreed, but not before a whole valuation process on cards many of which did not exactly have a lot of comps. I'm not saying it was not a bad look -- it was -- just that at that point no alternative was great and they probably had reasons including insurance company input for doing what they did.

Happy Festivus!

Ooh man, I'm sorry but.. I got problems and your gonna hear about it! ;):)

1) Placement of TPA Stickers

TPA stickers on the front of photos...it looks horrible. It takes away from the actual photo and autograph. Place it on the back, if you don't have a letter. I promise it'll still work the same.

2) I can't stand online card breakers. *slow reveal....slow reveal.....*
LEEETTTTSSSSSSSS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
*cringe*

3) How many parallels does a card really need?

4) Charging $6.25 for shipping and then ship my order with a PWE and .73 stamp...not cool.

5) High prices on new modern product. Makes it tough for kids and new people coming into the hobby.

whew...okay, I think I'm good now...thank you!

Happy Holidays & New Years! Cheers! :)

What bothers me the most is that what I frequently post seemingly requires rhyming, and is often somewhat off-topic to the point of being a tad misanthropic.

Brian (opening up a whole unexplored avenue of the airing of Festivus self-grievances)

complaint
 

Yes, thats fascinating !

“Book Price”

“Grading is a scam”

Grading cards and encapsulation in blocks of plastic is total BS

The hobby is gone, cards are a country club for VERY wealthy people

The hobby is not gone.

It never went anywhere.

I’m poor and enjoy this thing we have here called the hobby

"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded." - Yogi Berra

Hmm, lots of responses from said naysayers since this post, but not a single one acknowledged it. I wonder why? :rolleyes:

I also find it very strange that the entire premise of the complaint seems to be that an individual selling their own cards couldn't do it, so why should a consignor be able to, as if there aren't extremely major legal differences in those two roles.

There is a reason both the police and the insurance company said to run the auction. There are a lot of legal rights at play here from many different parties. Running the auction and sorting out the fallout in court later was the only valid play from a legal standpoint.

I would love love to get confirmation on this statement. The insurance company maybe, but I am pretty sure the police did not weigh in on this.

I'm not rich -- I just like encapsulation (specifically SGC) because it presents well and protects the item. And I suppose when I'm dead, it'll give my kids an exact idea of what it's worth.

Here is one…..COMPS!!!!!

I don’t give a tinkers damn about the comps, I want to know what you want for dang card!@!!!!!@!@!@!@!@@

Ugh……..

That will never happen :D. As I recall, these hypotheticals were raised so much in the thread that a speculative statement became read by the ML fanboys desperate to defend them for any reason as an actual fact. I still find it extremely dubious that they would be ordered, via the world's most unique insurance policies, or insurance company decisions that surely violate the actual contract that absolutely does not require this method of valuation, or the police, to host a fraudulent auction that is illegal under state law and then also would never point to that to justify their course in their announcements. We all know, very obviously, that this was not the only valid play from a legal standpoint. Running fake fraudulent auctions illegal under state law was not the only thing they could have done.

I know you aren't intersted in truth. You are only interested in confirming your own pre-determined beliefs. So I won't bother. I've gone down that road with you before, and I'm not going to do it again. But just know that I'm a prosecutor. I not only know the law, but I advise police. And your assertions are incorrect on both counts.

If you read the thread you would see we had lawyers in the correct state, not a different one, post the actual relevant laws without appeal to self-authority. Memory Lane hosting a fraudulent auction was not and never was "the only valid play". No real insurance company in the entire history of the world has ever demanded a customer run a fake, fraudulent auction for items they do not have nor had a policy requiring such to value items. If the police required it, which seems highly dubious they also would demand commission of a crime, Memory Lane would have been able to point to that event. They never did. All we have is a double standard by Memory Lane's fans to excuse them by lying about events or assuming unique events for which there is not a shred of proof forced their hand and required the auction, which of course wasn't wrong in the first place, but only not wrong for them.

Nolan Ryan and Gaylord Perry posted pretty similar career values to each other, using the old stats or the new. I'm sorry. A lot of things are true that I don't like either.

I'm not saying they were "ordered" to run the auction by the insurance company or that the contract required it. What I am saying is that I can well envision a scenario where ML discussed its predicament with its insurer, and the insurer advised that as a practical matter, it would be much easier and cleaner for all concerned if it let the auction continue to establish valuation benchmarks. And perhaps ML agreed and followed that recommendation. IMO that does not make them dishonest, nor does having that opinion make ME dishonest or a ML fanboy (I most definitely am not). I am fine if you disagree, I am not fine with you denigrating everyone who disagrees with you as dishonest, and you really don't need to go there to make your points. This is a complex situation as to which people can reasonably differ.

As for the police, I just don't know, not my area, but my opinion does not depend one way or another on that aspect.

My favorite part is how he makes stuff up and then argues that it isn't true. I am not sure who he is in real life but he expects everyone on here to tell him everything with proof yet has nothing in return to offer. I appreciate all his posts. The good ones and the ones that cause me to laugh out loud like the ones in this thread.

So my airing of grievances is those complaining about those complaining. Without all the beyond silly complaining about grading and AHs this place would not be near as fun to read.:eek::D

You keep using this description, but that's not at all what happened in this case.

Any lawyer in that thread claiming it was criminal to run those consignment auctions either doesn't know what they are talking about, or are like you, in that they made up their minds and weren't interested in thinking through the legal issues of the case.

I replied to Parkplace, regarding a source claim from Ohio, not you. If you go back to the thread, you will see the argument I alleged in there made numerous times. I do not recall if you had this extra nuance at the time or not or were smart enough not to get trapped by the ridiculous insurance policy claim. Probably the later lol.

I think that lying to your customers by hosting fraudulent auctions for items they did not have and could not possibly deliver, even if you like that as the correct course, is quite obviously "dishonest". This is why it is so ridiculous and gear grinding - even this has to be denied and we have to pretend that that isn't dishonest. That is absurd, and dishonest itself. Where I implied dishonesty from you was your claim that you couldn't even understand the grievance - while knowing full well why it is wrong for people who are not Memory Lane to do the exact same thing. Of course you get it, you just disagree with it.

Don't confuse James with facts. His mind is made up.

I do think it's quite plausible the insurer recommended and stated a preference for continuing the auction. I don't think it was required by the policy or that the insurer "ordered" them to do it. And again, I think there are significant differences between a single BST seller committing intentional fraud and this very complex situation that make it a poor analogy. And your argument has become circular -- it's dishonest to host a fraudulent auction.