This Probably Won't Go Anywhere, But...
 

Why pay for the "privilege" of making someone rich by grading your cards? After listening to all the BS associated with grading, the time, the money, the anxiety, the annoyances and irritations, why do it?

You know your cards better than some evaluator.

If for some reason I were to decide to sell any of my high-value cards; Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, DiMaggio, Williams, Mantle, etc., etc. etc., I would ask what any like card(s) would sell for, graded or otherwise. If someone doesn't buy it or them, guess what? I don't give a flying f!

Of course I keep my high value items either in a professional grade safe in my house or the bank safe deposit box.

My wife and daughter know what is in my collection, and like me, believe that grading is nothing more than a means to make someone rich.

I don't want my cards encased in ridiculous slabs. I don't care what someone else's opinion(s) of my cards are. If you want to buy them, you'll pay up, or take a walk.

Grading is a way to make someone rich...you. It has been proven time and again that graded cards sell for more than raw. There's no point in fighting that whether or not you agree with it.

Do what you want and let others do what they want. Easy peasy.

I believe what he is saying is that he will price his cards at what he believes the graded value would be based upon his own evaluation of condition. Hence, obtaining the "graded" price without the cost of grading. And that buyers are welcome to pay his price or not. He doesn't give a "f".

And fwiw, I agree with him.

Thank you!

...

I agree with everything you said, James. There are countless thousands of undergraded, overgraded and altered cards sitting in slabs. Trusting graders is like trusting one of the three-letter news channels or Google's fact-checker to deliver objective news.

Like it or not, for many people spending more than $20-$100 on a card they care more about PSA/SGC/etc opinion on a specific card moreso than almost any dealer or collector.

If this issue needed to be dealt with by the hobby, it should have been done 20+ years ago. Barring some extremely significant scandal it's probably not going anywhere...and we're not talking about a scattering of over-grading or missed alterations of cards.

At this point it's not only ingrained, but it's rudimentary entry-level collector stuff. The amount of new/novice collectors asking "Should I get this graded?" is extremely common.

Anyone can choose to make their own stand, but the hobby is strongly standing on the ground of grading services having a voice in the value of cardboard.

Once in a while I'll try and articulate this point, and I'm never quite sure if I'm getting it across the way I want. But I keep trying.

I view things like registry competition, protection from damage, etc. as byproducts (whether good or bad) of the real advantage that grading provides, which is the ability to buy online with some degree of confidence in what you're getting. For those of us who've been in the hobby for a while, of COURSE we know our cards better than anyone, and of COURSE the plastic holder prevents people from really getting to know an issue (i.e. paper stock, printing, etc).

Not long ago, our ability to collect was driven by the cards we had access to, either in our own geographic areas (via shows, trading groups, friends, etc) or folks that advertised in hobby publications. The internet gave us access to an entire universe of cards! Building a complete 1933 Goudey set once was a pursuit that might take a person his entire life. With the internet, and enough money, you could do it in a week!

The problem with this, of course, is that it could be more trouble than it's worth to buy online if all the cards were ungraded. One man's VG/EX is another man's EX/MT. I still remember buying a 1949 Bowman Johnny Vander Meer as a kid from a dealer that called the card MINT. I owned it for a while, and then tried to include it in a trade it back to him, and he told me it was VG at best.

Having that third party evaluation isn't going to be 100% accurate 100% of the time, but if you're buying online, sight unseen or through a scan, having a slab that says "this card is in near mint condition" can give you a reasonable amount of confidence in what is going to arrive in the mail.

Yes, grading has created an entire group of problems that didn't exist in the hobby beforehand, but at its core, I truly believe that grading has done far more good than bad, by allowing us to trust technology and grow our collections.

-Al

We've already had the major scandal. Nothing changed.

My only issue with grading is that if a card is more valuable then it costs more to grade, which I think is preposterous. Why should it cost me more if I'm grading a 1952 Topps Mantle, then it would if I was grading a 1952 Topps Johnny Mize? The process is identical, it's not like anything should be done inherently different for one card than the other.

agree...this is my #1 gripe with TPG.

You know the answer.

Getting a loan from a loan shark is more reasonable than having to cough up the kind of coin for grading a 52 Mantle. That is freaking highway robbery.

Butch Turner

James, you can feel that way, but I truly believe that a majority of the vintage collecting group want high dollar cards in slabs. Period. End of story.

If you want to sell and it is worth over lets say 1k, it should be slabbed. It is just the way it is.

...

While your opinions on the topic are understandable I do believe that you are doing your wife and daughter a disservice by relaying those feelings. At some point they may have to deal with selling a collection should you leave it behind and there is just no way you would be able to convince me that (unless they are deeply involved in the hobby with you) they will be able to navigate selling raw cards without getting taken advantage of. I would imagine an attempt which will end in either underselling the material or not being able to sell it at all (if they believe that they not getting a fair offer) ending with ultimately selling for far less than it is worth just to end the frustration.

It’s Unfortunately The Reality
 

I don’t like having to grade cards. The reality is you need to if you want someone to buy your high value cards. I was burnt in the early days of my collecting finding many of my raw cards were trimmed, altered, or over graded. So now I only buy graded cards and am happy to do so. Eventually me or my heirs will need to sell the collection I have built. When that happens I know it will be a lot easier to get a fair price.

There will be no revolt against the grading companies. It is in high value collectors’ interest to use them.i don’t understand grading commons, reprints or many modern cards with massive supply.But if you have a 52 Mantle you have to get it graded given few ungraded pass the authenticity test.

?Peter, you wouldn't have a RC of Sancho Panza available by any chance?

Of course, Peter. I think we all do. It just doesn't sit right with me. I know the rose tinted nostalgia glasses only highlight the good and not the bad, but the Hobby was in a significantly better place in terms of being just a hobby, years ago.

Does an art restorer charge more to restore the Mona Lisa than some random painting in your living room? It's not about the exact action they are performing, it's that they are being entrusted with the possession and care of a very valuable item and have to take that in consideration in pricing. Potential liability is a part of a business's overhead. And all overhead is baked into the pricing structure. The only other way would be to raise grading costs for every card and spread the cost out. But that would be too big a pill for their average consumer to swallow, so they won't do it. Their bread and butter is grading a million base cards a month, not 5 52 Mantles.

In my opinion this comparison should be like comparing apples to oranges. Our hobby should not reflect what goes on the art world. But that's neither here nor there. I know Why it costs more, I'm saying it shouldn't, it's not fair to the average collector.

Remove the art restorer analogy. You are getting caught up in it. I wasn't treating cards like artwork. I just randomly chose a service where the same action performed costs different depending on how valuable the item they are performing it on. It could literally be any service. It costs more to change the oil on a Lambourgini than it does a Chevy. If you know why it costs more, then you wouldn't say it shouldn't. It costs more to the consumer because it costs more to PSA. Simple as that. And I just explained why it is actually more fair to the average collector. The average collector isn't sending 52 Mantles to get graded. If they spread the cost of risk for those grading 52 Mantles across the board, the average consumer would be paying $99 to grade a base card instead of $20.

My collection is exclusively made up of collector grade cards. I don't really run into registry issues and I think people who do are doing it to themselves. I have no issue with TPA's and appreciate having my cards in a slab.

So do I!

:cool:

But neither am I selling any of the cards in my collection. Nor will I be in the foreseeable future.

;)

From an original collection.

It's a shame but if, and when, I sell these they will need to be put in slabs. The answer is always the same, money.

Very tough short print, on my grail list.

This. All of this.

If the cards are valuable it's highly likely the OP's family will eventually be taken advantage of, or, the cards will eventually be consigned by a family member and graded anyway.
Even if a "honest" dealer buys the cards for what the OP or his family thinks is a fair price, but then grades the cards and sells them for multiples of what was paid for them, hasn't the OP still been robbed? Only in the last scenario the OP robbed himself.


No one has to participate but grading is here to stay. At this point it's like riding around horse pulled buggy and complaining about the horseless carriage.

I’m just always confused why people that spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on essentially pictures of dudes are so aghast that other people spend a couple dozen more dollars to put the picture of the dude in a plastic case.

Because they think that by facilitating the transition of cards from collectibles to investments, grading has caused their acquisition costs to increase.

Haven't they always been investments though? The Wagner T206 has been an expensive card since it was printed. We've all seen the old Wanted Ads where people are constantly offering big money even at a time when cards were selling for pennies.

I would also hope the person cleaning your random living room painting is not the same guy working on the Mona Lisa.

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For me, there's a simple way of looking at this particular issue...

Getting a card graded isn't about ME as a collector, it's about the NEXT PERSON who will eventually own it - whether it is me selling it in the future or my eventual heirs doing it after I’ve become nothing but the dust on someone’s coffee table.

Ninety nine times out of a hundred (yes, this a generalized stat, so keep your pants on, contrarians, and don't start doing a deep dive into the numbers to try to disprove it - just finding enough supporting data showing the same card being sold before and after grading will be an extremely tough hill to climb, but I digress), a graded card will sell for more than its ungraded counterpart, so it just makes moving cards on to the next owners (for me or said heirs) that much easier.

I have cracked out north of 1,000 graded cards, submitted 0 (if I was selling something high grade nice, I might do it because it might be more profitable, but there is 0 point in grading until you sell), and have ~75 or so in slabs now largely because I've had to promise sellers I will not crack them out in order to get them from people who know my penchant to liberate everything:). I agree it is a stupid game, paying money for an appeal to authority to an unknown person at a company who is demonstrably incompetent over and over and over and over again. It's stupid, but if it makes money people will do anything, so it isn't going to change and while it can be fodder for some amusement it's not worth getting angry over or telling your buyers to fuck off for not paying graded prices for your raw cards or that you don't give a flying fuck what they think or want. Not many deals are closed for anything that way. You can't control other people, nor should anyone, so let them do what they want, have a laugh when PSA does something funny, and collect how you like.

Precisely!

Not to me they don't. I won't pay a premium for a card just because it's slabbed. As a result, I usually just pass over slabbed cards.

:(

graded
 

Agreed !

When was this? And surely the trimmed/altered cards you bought weren't from standard post-War Topps sets?


You really think so? Reprinted/counterfeit or just trimmed? And have the grading companies not demonstrated abject incompetence, fraud even, at detecting trimming?

:confused:

Huh?! I don't understand. Why would the seller be the least bit interested in you cracking the card out of its slab?

:confused:

What happens when you die and the cards fall into the hands of people who aren't well-versed in value of baseball cards? Do you trust people in the hobby to pay your survivors fair market value for a raw card? I don't.

Based on the information we have seen to date, unfortunately we can't take them with us.......

Exactly...while I'm not a fan at all of TPG'ing...I will not live forever...and even if I did...there's a high likelihood I will be selling my cards before I die...I have noone to leave them to.

This is why grading is important to me...so my cards are liquid/set up to receive maximum return when I decide to sell.

What incidentally is the cost of grading/slabbing a NM common from 1959 or 1960?

:confused:

At the moment, $15-20 (give or take) for PSA, depending on whether you get a bulk deal or not, and whether they're running a special. There's a chance it could run you a bit more if it grades for higher than you expect, or if there's something really special about the card that causes it to be worth more than your average common from those years.

I certainly understand why James is so aggravated by the grading racket. And I have nothing against his consistent desire to avoid it, and disparage the whole business every chance he gets.

As others have noted, the world has changed since we were kids. Back then, most cards changed hands in person, and you could inspect them until you were really confident about condition. Plus your total outlay was usually pennies, unless you were buying something really special, so the price tag associated with being wrong was small. Any deal that didn't happen in person probably only occurred between a buyer who really trusted the seller and their ability to accurately grade cards and weed out the doctored stuff.

These days, if you want to get top value when you sell, particularly if you have really nice stuff that will command top dollar, then grading is the most likely path to make it happen. You can certainly try to sell them for top dollar as top condition raw cards. While the Biebs taught us to "never say never", my experience is that will be a really heavy lift.

Naturally, if you have stuff that is really low grade and not particularly valuable, then you probably don't give up much by skipping the grading. Particularly if a buyer has a chance to inspect your cards in person before they buy. And if I understand James' collecting habits, this might be the case, so maybe it will work fine for him and/or his successors in cardboard.

This Probably Won't Go Anywhere, But...
 

It's intriguing to me that this subject never seems to go more than a few months without rearing it's ugly head again. But it's well-tilled ground at this point. For James, it's really well-tilled ground...

When I first became aware of graded cards in the early 2000's, I hated slabs and the entire concept too. I thought they looked clinical and clunky and extremely out of place, and the information they divulged on the flip was something that I thought informed collectors should be mostly aware of in the first place. But as others have pointed out, over the years - the means to the end for the slab - particularly for those of us who buy online without being able to physically inspect every single thing first, and the ability to get something at least somewhere in the correct condition ballpark for the price we are paying - is extremely helpful. For me beyond that, slabs are a decent holder with an opinion on it. Nothing more. I too have cracked many slabs, sometimes because I just don't like the aesthetic of the particular slab, or the way the card moves in it, or something pretty trivial. But I understand their purpose now.

I would also agree with those who have said that ship has sailed, automobiles are here to stay, etc. etc. There are many things I still dislike about grading today, even without the noted scandals - grading is a human endeavor and thus far from perfect - but at some point you either put up with the way the world works, or you increasingly have a hard time living in it.

I also think that it's just foolish today if you have Ruths, Cobbs, Gehrigs, Mantle rookies, what have you in any condition, and you don't have them in slabs. Sorry. Sure, you can collect "not for the money", but to just be seemingly totally ignorant of some cards and their value for your future, or your future heirs at this point is dumb. Keep your heads in the sand if you like, but nobody is going to live forever, even if you don't get hit by a bus next week. If you just "don't care" and whoever winds up with the cards after you are gone gets taken or loses money and oh well, that's that! - fine, but you are being silly and irresponsible IMO.

As others have echoed many times before - wouldn't it be boring if we all collected the same thing? Wouldn't it also be boring if we all collected in exactly the same WAY?

LOL Don Q.

Some people like to collect vintage, some modern.

Some prefer baseball, others basketball or football or (really?) wrestling. Or Pokémon.

Some grimace if a card isn't centered to near perfection, others will happily scoop up a stack of beaters.

And ... some people will only put raw cards in their binders and boxes while others prefer their cards graded and encased in plastic. Still others of us have a healthy mix of the two.

Honestly, my baseball card collection is no better or worse than your rookie quarterbacks or ultra-modern hoops. Good restaurants have a varied menu for a reason. I never would criticize your collecting taste. I bristle when someone criticizes mine.

The only person with a better collection than yours is you when you add your next card.


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Probably a stupid question - but...

How many people have purchased an over-graded slabbed card because they thought the card would be valued for future sale based on the number on the flip (rather than on the technical grade it really should be)?

If you own raw cards and don't want to spend the money to have them graded, then nothing wrong with having the ability to hold the actual cardboard rather than a cold plastic slab.

I feel the same way. That said, I’m not going to sit here and pretend I don’t understand why people feel differently. During WWII, your priorities were God, country, family in that order. Now they’re money, money, family (maybe).

Take into consideration a collector and/or investor financial state.

Some of us are wealthy enough outside of our cards that we are more free to do as we please with our cards. If you are fortunate enough to have a good paying job, own a home(s), have a retirement pension, and have a significant chunk of change in other investments, then go ahead enjoy the hobby as you like - slab or raw, pass your cards down, take them to the grave, whatever your heart desires.

However, some of us are not that fortunate. For us our cards represent an honest part of our retirement savings. We need to maximize our card value holdings to help fill out our retirement income. Thus we grade our cards so we can realize all we can out of our holdings. We are trying to do the best we can with what we have.

We are all in different boats in this thing called life.

My situation is we own our pool home outright, no mortgage, have 3 very lucrative pensions. Since I retired from the Navy, my medical is free other than the mandatory Medicare, which is automatically deducted from my Navy retirement. I'm doing fine.

I have some very nice, highly desirable, high end cards and memorabilia. Yes I have some beaters. None of my high end cards are anything less than high end, and would grade accordingly.

I'm not trying to set up cards as some sort of investment. I don't care about that sort of thing. That's when it stops being a hobby for me. Your mileage may vary, and that's fine, just not my bag.

Thus, I'm not going to pay one cent for someone's opinion of my cards. When either I or my wife or daughter ever sell them, they will go for whatever like graded examples go for or they won't be sold. Period, end of discussion.

Every graded card I have ever had has been cracked. I like raw cards; I have no desire for bulky, cumbersome slabs of plastic.

As Howard Cosell would have said, I told it like it is. For me. I am not going to help someone, somewhere get inherently rich opinonating or verifying the authenticity or whatever over my cards.