Banned in Florida
 

Well my choices of on-line vendors to purchase pre-war has been reduced by two:
1. PWCC - It is impossible, at least in my experience, to deal with these people under their new management with a flawed business model. I was barred for not making payment less than 10 hours after an auction ended and things went downhill after that. I will spare you the details but my head still hurts.
2. Greg Morris - I have been barred here because of perceived negative comments made on our board about current grading standards when my '49 Bowman Spahn, bought from them, got kicked back by the Ebay authentication program.
PWCC is certainly for the best, and I will say Greg certainly has thin skin for such a mild comment I made.

You really shouldn't care this much. PWCC is a criminal fraud ring; being banned by them is really not that big of a problem.

In April, you made a thread calling out a relatively small issue with them and said you would not do business with them: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=334797

In September, you were back with them and making a new thread about them, complaining about the result of sending them an insulting email : https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=339913

In October, you made thread #3 complaining about a ban. https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=342064

This is thread #4 of the year on the PWCC issue.


Greg Morris gave wrong information about a card's condition, the authentication program rejected it, and then you made a thread with a series of claims about the card and experience that didn't make sense and turned out to be mostly false (https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=327430). It was not rejected for not being authentic as you claimed, and your refund story where you again appear to have sent rude memos to the wrong people in your own telling.


I know I'm going to sound like an ass, but if you make false accusations about people or send them insulting memos they are likely to not want to do further business with you for the obvious reasons. At least know that if you do that to people they aren't going likely to continue dealing with you. You really should stop letting fraudsters live rent free in your head for peace of mind. There are plenty of decent folks out there selling and trading cards to enjoy and make good mutually beneficial deals with; you don't need PWCC.

To the bold part. Are you referring to the current, former, or both owners of PWCC? Aren't they the PSA/Goldin/PWCC triangle of greatness now?

Greg, you certainly didn't take long to take me to task. I wish now I didn't make the post but thought others might find it interesting. You are right about my confusion and expressed exasperation about the the '49 Bowman Spahn, where I really got the wrong end of the stick. The thing is I still wanted the card, regardless of Ebay's ruling, but had no say in the matter. The fact that I kept looking in the wrong account for my refund is on me. I don't recall anything insulting said about Greg Morris only that I and others felt that his card grading standards had slipped a bit.
Can we declare a truce? This is not worth prolonging.

Oh No .
 

A lot of us just made popcorn.

..

I'm definitely eager to see where this goes as well.

At the same time, it does seem like Yoda has more than his fair share of trouble with various sellers. Of course, my first post here was about a major AH and some excitement I was having. They didn't officially ban me, but I suspect the CEO won't be sending me a Christmas card anytime soon. So I suppose we all are due for some unnecessary nonsense from sellers from time to time.

Maybe Yoda just buys a lot more, so if 1% of his deals go bad, it happens more often than with the rest of us?

I can assure you that PWCC does not ban anyone for non-payment within 10 hours of auction end.

Also, several people have expressed concern about GM grades not being quite as reliable as they used to be. Even Greg himself made note of how difficult it is to find good graders or to train graders in a recent podcast interview where he stated that he is no longer doing the grading himself (or at least no longer doing all the grading, which he used to do). I don't know of anyone else that has been banned for making such statements. I've even said this myself, yet no repercussions have come my way.

I suspect if you're being banned, it likely has something to do with something other than not paying within 10 hours of auction end and something other than saying someone's grades aren't as accurate as they used to be.

I am reminded of the following and not singling out any particular person or entity. This pertains to any business, but not adhering to it doesn't seem to affect companies in this hobby:

If you wish to expand, you can't expect success if you thin out your talent pool to the point of consistently making sloppy mistakes. Ha ha.

There are a finite number of knowledgable and talented people to do this work with a strong amount of proficiency. Growing too big and expanding too fast ends up making you look bad as you struggle to hire new "experts" whose actual knowledge base may range from semi-compitent to mediocre to worse. But everyone has their eye mostly on that C-note on the end of the fishing hook and that's what they care about the most.

In our industry, it's become all but laughable, yet people are still spending untold amounts for little pieces of sealed plastic.

Yoda, you are always welcome here on Net 54 at least. I for one hope you please keep posting your Emily Litella tributes.

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Thanks, Al. I needed that.

I don't recall what # PWCC auction it was, say 2 mos. ago, I was the leading bidder on a '55 Bowman Kiner in extended bidding when I went to bed. The following morning I checked the results, found that I did win the card but was now blocked from further auction participation because of non-payment, so it happened to me. I suspect it was a systems glitch that endless exchanges with Customer Service failed to rectify.
As far as Greg Morris is concerned, I believe the reason I am persona non grata is because I said on the board, several here concurring, that I thought his grading standards had slipped a little. End of story.

Hey John, I mean Yoda… use the force! I hope you’re well!

Many years ago I was banned by Lew Lipset from participating in his auctions. I had purchased an American Publishing PC of Wagner, this was before PSA, it was raw. He had over graded it so badly that I sent it back. He was furious and banned me from his auctions! I was crushed… I had studied his reference guides obsessively and had looked up to him and not to mention his auctions usually had ridiculously awesome vintage baseball cards!

So what did I do, you ask? I got permission from my brother-in-law to use his name and address! So whenever I called and talked to Lew I disguised my voice and used my brother-in-law’s name.

Shhhhhh! Don’t tell anyone…

banned
 

Ha,
like that now famous NFL coach rant after a tough loss about " we knew who the were !, They knew who we were supposed to be !, etc...

Typically if someone has a ton of disagreements with many people and businesses and its a pattern, it's NOT usually those being complained about that are the problem, there is always one common denominator...

Bingo.

So I take it the last couple of guys to post don’t believe “the customer is always right”?

The 2 companies mentioned by John (Yoda) would rather turn their backs on a well established collector who has been buying rare vintage baseball items for at least the 30 years I’ve known him instead of finding a mutually satisfactory solution. Hmmmmm, not a great way to grow their companies. I’m glad I don’t have stock in them.

I’ve been a business man since I was a business kid. Even as a youngster I knew that “the customer is always right” - even when they’re wrong - they’re still right!

Anyone who believes that the customer is always right is an idiot. Full stop.

Unfortunately much of the world -- be it businesses or professionals -- doesn't seem to work this way any more. Customer service is frequently poor to non-existent, and even doctors frequently don't respond to calls or messages.

Than I for one am an idiot. Of course this is based on the opinion of a Snowman.

Aaron good for you. It's a true friend who will stick up for somebody, right or wrong. I commend you for it.

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The full quote is actually "the customer is always right, in matters of taste."

And...heck no. It's gotten so much worse since Covid too. Customers are more rude, eager to yell, and even threaten violence. The vast majority are still good...but the "bad customers" are much much worse than even just five years ago. I invite anyone that believes "the customer is always right" to work a week at my retail store and see how quickly their mind changes. :) :eek:

From Wikipedia:

“The customer is always right" is a motto or slogan which exhorts service staff to give a high priority to customer satisfaction. It was popularised by pioneering and successful retailers such as Harry Gordon Selfridge, John Wanamaker and Marshall Field. They advocated that customer complaints should be treated seriously so that customers do not feel cheated or deceived. This attitude was novel and influential when misrepresentation was rife and caveat emptor ('let the buyer beware') was a common legal maxim.[1] Variations include le client n'a jamais tort ('the customer is never wrong'), which was the slogan of hotelier César Ritz,[2] who said, "If a diner complains about a dish or the wine, immediately remove it and replace it, no questions asked."[3] A variation frequently used in Germany is der Kunde ist König ('the customer is king'), while in Japan the motto okyakusama wa kamisama desu (お客様は神様です), meaning 'the customer is a god', is common.

Neither the businessman or the customer are always right. It's a ridiculous slogan that holds no place if you wish to be logical.

The businessman should strive to work with the customer towards the most satisfactory outcome for both parties. Sometimes this is just impossible, and one has to weigh if it makes any sense to spend more time on a situation/customer/business. Strange/difficult personalities will occasionaly rear their heads. I don't blame any businessperson for throwing in the towel and moving on to the next task when faced with that. Personally, I've never needed a sale so badly that I'll tolerate dealing with an obstinate customer. No, thanks.

Charlie sits down in your restaurant and orders a ribeye steak, cooked medium rare. Four minutes later, he starts barking at the waitress, asking what's taking so long. She apologizes and says she will check on it for him. On her way back to the kitchen, she stops at another table to grab their credit card and just as she's beginning to ask how everything was, she gets interrupted by Charlie. Charlie doesn't like his fork. He says it looks dull. He was expecting a shinier fork. The waitress apologizes to the other table and brings Charlie a new set of silverware. As she walks away, you overhear Charlie complaining to the other guests about how slow the service is and how the steakhouse across the street is so much better. Four minutes later, his steak is ready. You grab it from the kitchen and deliver it yourself. You note the steam rising from the plate and say, "careful, the plate is hot" as you set it down in front of him. One minute later, Charlie complains that his knife is dull. As the waitress hands him a new knife, he drops the old one on the floor. He then proceeds to make a sexually inappropriate comment to her as she bends over to pick it up. A few minutes later, Charlie again interrupts the waitress as she's taking an order at another table. He wants to speak to the manager. You walk over and he complains that his steak is cold (after eating 3/4 of it). You offer to reheat it for him, but he declines and starts berating you in front of the other customers. He says he's not paying for his food. You decide that Charlie is just having a bad day, so you comp his meal and apologize. You invite him to come back and to give you another try. "The customer is always right."

Two days later, Charlie returns. But Charlie is still Charlie, and he pulls the same routine with another waitress. This time, she's in tears. You have to take over her section for her while she goes outside for some fresh air and to calm her nerves. Fast forward to the check... Charlie again asks for a comp. His steak is again 3/4 eaten. Today, he just didn't like it. It wasn't cooked right. He asked for medium rare and he "didn't get it" (the steak is clearly pink).

You have 3 choices.

1) You apologize and again comp Charlie's meal. The customer is always right.

2) You tell Charlie that you're sorry, but you cannot comp his meal today and that he should have complained before the steak was nearly finished if he had a problem with it.

3) You tell Charlie the scumbag to go f* himself and that he is no longer welcome at your restaurant.

If you chose option #1, you're an idiot, and it's going to end up costing you your business. If you chose option #2, then you have come to the realization that in fact no, the customer is not always right. But you made a mistake by not 86ing Charlie from the premises. And, if like me, you would have chosen option #3, then it's a moot point because Charlie's ass would have been kicked out on the first visit, not the second one. And you will have earned the respect of your staff.

All valid generalizations have exceptions, and, as in Aaron's case, no good deed goes unpunished.

Whilst we makes more popcorn , :
 

..Here's a card or two:

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...000001_NEW.JPG


http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...graphs_NEW.jpg

Charlie,

You have an interesting way with people. I hope you find a steak house that suits your particular needs.

Have a wonderful day, Charlie. Happy collecting.

Very truly yours,

Eric

A buyer or a seller is not automatically correct by virtue of simply existing, as should be obvious to any rational person.

A buyer who makes public false statements and claims about a business and sends them hostile and insulting emails will be seen by most businesses as not worth dealing with. It's a loss for the business, and it's improper for them to make their employees put up with it.

The buyer and the seller have equal obligations to conduct themselves in a vaguely proper way.

For me, this is simple. If I err, the customer is always right. If the customer errs, they are not wrong, but human. However, if a customer's single err evolves into a pattern of disruptive errs, I cease doing business with them. Dealing with a pattern of un-desirable behavior is time consuming and counterproductive. I feel that I am better able to use that time to grow my business versus dealing with that type of behavior. And am I worried about this type of person bad-mouthing my business....no, because if they behave this way towards me, they likely won't know too many people who will listen to them anyway.

Life is too short for tolerating un-desirable behavior.

Bottom line, a customer is NOT always right.

Agreed.

+1 well put

I'm going to call my lawyer right now and if he doesn't answer, I know where he lives.;):D

Have always hated the expression "the customer is always right." I usually correct it as "the customer is always right, except when he is an asshole."

No comment on present situation, which I haven't even trtied to follow.


QUOTE=G1911;2397514]A buyer or a seller is not automatically correct by virtue of simply existing, as should be obvious to any rational person.

A buyer who makes public false statements and claims about a business and sends them hostile and insulting emails will be seen by most businesses as not worth dealing with. It's a loss for the business, and it's improper for them to make their employees put up with it.

The buyer and the seller have equal obligations to conduct themselves in a vaguely proper way.[/QUOTE]

1. No need to support the biggest scammer in the history of the hobby and the group that purchased them and will be BK in 5 years.

2. I was barred by GM for returning 2-trimmed and colored cards. 1 was caught during the E-bay process with clear pictures they did not show.

The other was a red man that was trimmed and outed by SGC. The nice guy i spoke to @GM said returning the trimmed card, I wouldn't be banned when I asked, :D:D:D:p. The jokes on him. I was. We'll Greg Morris, my local guy is scraped from my trust as the one my family is to send my raw cards to sell. They relisted the card 2 grades higher as Min Size req not met and it sold for the same price. Good for Greg Morris. Great business plan. I' don't know how I will ever live without these 2 leaches. I'll spend my 50K a year somewhere else. :rolleyes:

I am not sure I followed your post completely. Why would GM ban you for returning cards?

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They don't. I've returned trimmed cards to GM with no issues. Sometimes they miss stuff. They're human. When they do, I provide good pics showing the issue. If it's a trimmed card, I show it against a ruler with a close-up photo of the trimmed edge. I've never had a problem.

You'd certainly think and expect that showing your evidence and wording yourself in a polite manner would work out fine for all parties with a company such as that.

I've never had any issues with them, but I rarely buy unsigned cards. I'm usually outbid when dealing with GM. They get their strong prices for most of what I've been interested in. The only time I fared well was with a Kaline RC that was listed as "Low Grade/Marked". "Low Grade"? Assuredly. The "Marked" was a career-era ballpoint autograph.

There is more to the story, I guarantee it. I know Greg pretty well and he doesn't ban folks for no reason. It's like banning a member here. That is the last thing we want done.
.

correct leon gregg is a good honest person,story makes no sense.and who cares

As a business owner and someone who also works in e-commerce and has direct lines into customer service, the customer is more often wrong than right. Spending money somewhere doesn't entitle the customer to carte blanche toward a business or individual. OP even admitted he made several mistakes with who/what/where and was flipping out about a refund but didn't even check his account. Sorry but no, customers aren't alway's right and quite frankly are often wrong or misinformed. It's a lose lose for a business to fight back.

This, customers are in fact quite often rude, abusive, threatening and generally think they can just get whatever they want with zero courtesy in a LOT of interactions.

Always curious how other businesses handle horrible customers. Would love to hear from other business owners.

I owned a construction company. In construction if you are a horrible customer your name will be added to a list that we share with other construction companies. Once on that list you will pay a LOT more than anyone else for the exact same work. It is a tax we add for being "hard" to deal with.

It truly depends on each individual situation, when our business is the one that made the mistake, its immediate replacement (if available) or full refund at customers choice along with a credit toward a future transaction. If the situation is not solvable by standard means, we work with the customer to get to a satisfactory resolution to the best of our ability.

If we cannot get to a satisfactory resolution where the customer is unreasonable, threatening or abusive, we "break up" with that customer, deactivate their account and ban future accounts linked to them. While not often and not our goal, the reality is you will never make everyone happy and that's just a part of business.

This is generally how we approach our business.

At the same time, as was also suggested, for a customer that consistently demands more, the price for our services rise commensurately. Either they stick around and pay the higher price to get the level of service they need, or they move on and become someone else’s problem. Naturally this only works in a business where prices can be modified for each customer.

I've heard it through this website before that's EXACTLY what they do. I have been buying online from them for years with no issues. After returning 2 cards, 1 through e-bay authenticity, That's exactly what happened. No other reason why my bids would be blocked? Like i said, I could care less. If they can't tell trimmed and colored subjects in their raw cards...AND their grading sucks for the last year if I'm being honest. My eyes hurt and I CAN'T SEE buying anymore of their fake slop.

I'd like to know what it was then Leon? Maybe it was a internal note I sent after E-bay contacted me for the colored card? Thanking them for selling me an obvious colored and creased card that wasn't noted or shown in their pictures...I DID SHOW the debacle on this BLOG when it happened. maybe they didn't like that? I have ZERO IDEA I don't really know and I don't really care why if I'm being honest. I don't know Greg from Adam. I guarantee that!!!!

https://www.net54baseball.com/showpo...75&postcount=5


I have purchased At least 100K worth of cards on this site alone without 1 issues over the years. ZERO. I have enjoyed it very much in fact. Thanks, Chuck

That's the story skippy. believe it or not. I'm a lot of things...But not a liar. Go ahead and continue with the verbal blow jobs. I could care less.