Choose your all-time HOF team
 

Inspired by Clint's thread https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=338118 I thought we could choose an entire HOF team...not just 1 player.

For a bit of fun...

Suppose you could build a team of 11 players (9 players on the field, 1 relief pitcher and 1 DH) and a manager, but you can only choose from members of the HOF. Who's on your team?

You can choose a player from any time and any league so long as they're in Cooperstown.

https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-fam...-fame-explorer

Name your team and let us know why. Here's mine:

Manager: Joe Torre
Pitcher: Sandy Koufax
Catcher: Johnny Bench
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Rod Carew
3B: George Brett
SS: Honus Wagner
RF: Hank Aaron
LF: Ted Williams
CF: Willie Mays
DH: Babe Ruth
Relief Pitcher: Bob Gibson

Rationale:
This team has a lot of hits and a lot of runs in it and some amazing fielding capability. I chose Ruth as a DH because as great as he was, let's face it, he wasn't known for incredible defensive work. That leaves room for Aaron in Right Field.

An infield of Gehrig, Carew, Wagner, Brett and Bench has speed and skill plus they'll create hits and stolen bases.

The choice of manager was harder than I thought. Who could get the best out of a blend of a mix of players from across the ages? I would like to have chosen Billy Martin as the manager but he's not in Cooperstown like I think he should be.

I'll take the easy way out and defer to Mr. Cobb. There was no stronger student, observer or practicioner of the game and he lived into the final era which I would consider using to make my own picks. He was also typically honest and outspoken when opining on anything, so each one of his choices would, to me, be of great importance. More so than even someone such as Connie Mack.

Starting Pitcher: Lefty Grove
Catcher: Josh Gibson
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Nap Lajoie
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Honus Wagner
LF: Oscar Charleston
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Babe Ruth
DH: Ted Williams
Relief Pitcher: Mariano Rivera

For me, the hardest choices are Starting Pitcher and 2nd Baseman.

There are so many great starting pitchers. I chose Lefty Grove because he led the League in ERA a record 9x, led the League in strikeouts his first 7 years and just knew how to win games. His .680 Winning percentage is the highest of any Hall of Famer and it translated into the Playoffs where he pitched very well, winning 2 World Series. Grove faced Ruth 11 times in exhibition games as a Minor Leaguer and struck him out 9 times. Maybe that's why Grove was sold for more than Ruth.

I think Hornsby was a better hitter than Lajoie, but I think Hornsby would not be a great player to have on your team because he was not well liked.

I think Bench was the best catcher in MLB history, but Gibson was probably better.

Manager: It won’t matter, they’re winning
SP: Lefty Grove
C: Yogi Berra
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Eddie Collins
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Honus Wagner
LF: Ted Williams
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Babe Ruth

I think the best at each position, with C being the toughest pick and the least clear. I am slightly bothered by the lack of any 19th century player that seems statistically unlikely to not be present on a list of 9 from all of MLB history.

RF Roberto Clemente
CF Willie Mays
LF Babe Ruth
SS Honus Wagner
3B George Brett
2B Rogers Hornsby
1B Lou Gehrig
C Johnny Bench
P Sandy Koufax
RP Mariano Rivera
DH Ted Williams
M Joe McCarthy

Manager: Walter Alston
Starting Pitcher: Are we getting the player at his peak, or are we considering his whole career? If it's peak, I take Sandy Koufax. Considering the whole career, Walter Johnson
Relief Pitcher: Goose Gossage. Man once posted a single season WAR over 8 as a reliever.
Catcher: Johnny Bench
First Base: Lou Gehrig
Second: Eddie Collins
Third: Mike Schmidt
Short: Honus Wagner
Left: Rickey Henderson - Otherwise this team doesn't have a leadoff hitter. Now they've got the best one
Center: Ty Cobb - My mind says Mays, but my heart wants to bat Cobb second and watch him execute the hit and run with Rickey on first.
Right: Babe Ruth - he's not Aaron defensively, but he did lead the league in OF assists at least once so he's not a liability out there, plus, he's an extra arm in the bullpen. Can also hit.
DH: Ted Williams

Manager: Casey Stengel
Starting Pitcher: Bob Gibson
Catcher: Yogi Berra
First: Lou Gehrig
Second: Jackie Robinson
Third: Eddie Mathews
Left Field: Babe Ruth
Center Field: Mickey Mantle
Right Field: Roberto Clemente
Relief Pitcher: Goose Gossage
Closer: Mariano Rivera
DH: Ted Williams

Manager John McGraw: He was a bad ass and probably an ass too.
First base Lou Gehrig: Nobody else even came to mind. Great player and person.
2nd base Rogers Hornsby: Dude could hit and he could also fill in if McGraw gets kicked out.
Shortstop Honus Wagner: Would really like to see him hit and run, none of the other shortstops really interest me.
3rd base would be Brooks Robinson: My favorite player so of course he’s on my team. Looks like we have the hitting taken care of so let’s throw in some fielding. Plus he was great in the clutch.
RF Roberto Clemente: He could do it all run, hit and throw
CF Ty Cobb: He just edges Mays out for me.
LF Willie Mays: I’m sliding him over but I got a guy that can play any outfield position here.
DH Babe Ruth: Can also use him in the outfield and pitch occasionally.
SP Walter Johnson: Worlds Greatest Pitcher
RP Hoyt Wilhelm: Just love having a knuckleballer on the staff.
Catcher Johnny Bench: Besides being a great catcher he could hit with power.

No shortstop?

P W Johnson
C Bench
1B Gehrig
2B Hornsby
SS A Rod
3B Schmidt
LF Bonds
CF Mays
RF Ruth

When did ARod and Bonds make the HOF?

The same year Clemente surpassed Aaron. :)

But fair enough, I was just thinking all time, Wagner and Williams.

Lineup
 

Manager: Sparky Anderson
P Koufax
R Rivera
C Bench
1B Gehrig
2B Morgan
SS Wagner
3B Schmidt
LF Griffey Jr
CF Mantle
RF Aaron
DH Ruth

If we did this for FB or BKB there wouldn't be anyone from the first few decades either.

Manager: John McGraw
First Base: Gehrig
2nd Base: Collins
SS: Wagner
3B: Schmidt
LF: Aaron
CF: DiMaggio
RF: Ruth
DH: Williams
SP: Young
RP: Rivera

Manager - Connie Mack
Pitcher - Cy Young
Closer M. Rivera
1b - George Sisler
2b - Rogers Hornsby
SS - Honus Wagner
3b - Mike Schmidt
C - Yogi Berra
LF - Babe Ruth
CF - Tris Speaker
RF - Robero Clemente
DH - Lou Gehrig

You, sir, have nailed it!

Manager: Connie Mack
Pitcher: Walter Johnson
Catcher: Johnny Bench
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Rogers Hornsby
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Honus Wagner
RF: Babe Ruth
LF: Ted Williams
CF: Willie Mays
DH: Josh Gibson
Relief Pitcher: Mariano Rivera

They weren't born yet. :) I thought you might have misread what he was asking for. I missed that he wanted a reliever and had to edit my post.

Who would be your catcher?

Manager: Tommy Lasorda
Pitcher: Sandy Koufax
Catcher: Roy Campanella
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Nap Lajoie
SS: Honus Wagner
3B: Mike Schmidt
CF: Willie Mays
LF: Ted Williams
RF: Ken Griffey Jr.
DH: Babe Ruth
RP: Mariano Rivera

C: Bill Dickey
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Eddie Collins
SS: Hans Wagner
3B: Mike Schmidt
LF: Ted Williams
CF: Mickey Mantle
RF: Hank Aaron
DH: Babe Ruth

SP: WaJo
RP: Rivera

Lineup:

Wagner
Williams
Mantle
Ruth
Aaron
Gehrig
Schmidt
Dickey
Collins

Which seems unlikely to be fair for an all-time team. At the very peak of talent with a small roster we will have a significant random chance factor, but it seems we always ignore certain periods.

I can’t speak to basketball, but for football I’d put some of the very old guys on the all-time team. Hutson for one.

EDIT: Squad modified, because I violated the rule set forth by the challenge, originally, and selected Barry Bonds as a member of my Hall of Fame Team, oh well.


Manager: John McGraw
Pitcher: Satchel Paige
Catcher: Josh Gibson
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Eddie Collins
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Pop Lloyd
RF: Babe Ruth
CF: Oscar Charleston
LF: Ted Williams

If including DH and RP

DH: Mickey Mantle
RP/CP: Mariano Rivera

My rules are simple: The player must've spent significant time at the position, and made the majority of their career contributions at said position. This also assumes the player is at the height of their power, when they are playing for the team.

I originally opted not to include a DH or a Relief Pitcher. This is mainly due to the fact that, baseball has spent more time without the Designated Hitter "position" than with it, and due to the fact that Satchel Paige would finish the game if needed! However I included Mantle and Rivera if I indeed needed to fill those positions. Based off of baseball talent, Mantle might be better off, playing left field, than Williams but I didn't want to completely violate the self imposed rule that I decided to use.

They played 8 seasons (1893-1900) in the 19th Century with the pitcher's mound at 60ft. We're in the middle of the 123rd season since then with a massive increase in the number of people actually playing in the majors. It would be shocking if somebody from the 19th Century actually deserved to make the list.

An all-time team with a built in recency basis, picking the players best for todays game rather than a pound-for-pound style ranking of dominance in context, is not an All-Time Team at all.

An increase in the quantity of players has no effect whatsoever on an all-time team. The absolute greats do not lose their jobs in a smaller league; the worse players do.

As an All-Time Team, your 1893 cutoff used to dismiss the improbability is not relevant.

Honus Wagner played in the 19th century. He is on most teams. Cy Young and Nap Lajoie are on lists and they played in the 19th century too.

Nobody not even God is starting at wide receiver over Jerry Rice.

If anything, I see a nostalgia bias on most peoples teams. Very stacked in favor of prewar and dead ball era players.

A football team typically has 1 starting wide receiver?

Yes that is one of the preferred periods in such teams. Nowhere did I argue or imply the bias is to the most modern period. The method proposed by the poster quoted is an argument of recency, which is not what most teams given constitute though. They love the classic post-war and the deadball period.

Is Jerry Rice, not a football God?

I love the inclusion of Oscar Charleston, Pop Lloyd. Great additions from the Negro League. But you'll need to re-select your LF. Bonds isn't a possible choice. He's not in the HOF.

As a footnote, in my opinion none of the players involved with performance enhancing drugs should ever even be on a ballot for the HoF. In fact, I'm disappointed that many of them haven't had a ban from baseball.

I was so busy in assembling an all time, squad that I completely forgot the "Hall of Fame" Rule! It shall be fixed, shortly. Thank you!

Sp - young
rp - rivera
1b - gehrig
2b - hornsby
ss - wagner
3b - schmidt
c- bench
of - mays
of - cobb
of - aaron
dh - ruth
mgr - stengel

Manager: John McGraw
Pitcher: Walter Johnson
Catcher: Josh Gibson
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Rogers Hornsby
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Honus Wagner
RF: Babe Ruth
CF: Willie Mays
LF: Ty Cobb
DH: Ted Williams
RP: Mariano Rivera

Manager: Connie Mack
Pitcher: Sandy Koufax
Catcher: Josh Gibson
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Rogers Hornsby
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Honus Wagner
RF: Babe Ruth
CF: Willie Mays
LF: Hank Aaron
DH: Ted Williams
RP: Mariano Rivera

If it were just best and not HOF Bonds would be in Leftfield.

The fences have to be moved back. It’s no longer a game; it’s home run derby.

Mgr: Bobby Cox
C: Pudge
P: Maddux
1st: Musial
3rd: Boggs
2nd: Carew
SS: Ozzie
LF: Rickey
CF: Mays
RF: Gwynn
DH: Ruth
RP: N/A

I believe it was Detroit sportswriter Joe Falls in one of his columns in The Sporting News who did this sort of thing. He said (paraphrasing here) 'Spot me the three Robinsons, pick a team for yourself, and I'll finish mine and beat you more than you'll beat me.' As an Orioles fan that has stuck with me for over a half century. In that spirit here is my team. WAR leaders? Not necessarily. But these are 12 guys I'd happily go to war with.

MGR Earl Weaver
C Johnny Bench
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Jackie Robinson
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Honus Wagner
LF Frank Robinson
CF Ty Cobb
RF Roberto Clemente
DH Babe Ruth
SP Bob Gibson
RP Mariano Rivera

Switchhitting Mantle between Williams and Ruth .. yikes

C Bench
1B Gehrig
2B Roberto Alomar (was so fun to watch)
SS Wagner
3B Mike Schmidt
LF Hank Aaron - he played 300+ games in left
CF Mays
RF Ruth
DH Ted Williams
SP Pedro Martinez
RP Randy Johnson

I picked 1893 since the game fundamentally changed that year. Ok to disagree with that if you like.

If you don't like the concept of more players = better players, fine. Then go with population. More people to draw from = better players.

It's simply silly to think that players haven't improved significantly over the last 125 years. Relative domination is am interesting way to judge things. Doing that overly rewards outliers who played in era of less skill.

Baseball fans are the only fans who think a player from 130 years ago could possibly be one of the 10 or 12 best ever. Football, basketball, and hockey fans all know better.

It may be that players today are better due to modern drug regimens, the amount of personal development they get, because they may build upon the knowledge that came before, and/or because people today are inherently better than our predecessors.

But if the task is an All-Time Team, and we insist that we only include modernity, then it is very, very obviously not an "All-Time" Team, it is the team since X cutoff that you like. An All-Time Team requires a pound-for-pound type approach.

All time Team?
 

Interesting topic, especially for those who are having fun. Here's my shot:

C- Johnny Bench
P- Bob Gibson
1B- Lou Gehrig
2B- Rod Carew
SS- Honus Wagner
3B- Jim Thome (he started as a 3B and his offensive stat line is outstanding)
OF- Hank Aaron
OF- Ted Williams
OF- Roberto Clemente
DH- Babe Ruth
Relief- Sandy Koufax (just to get him in there after 8 innings of the Hoot)

Manager- doesn't really matter, since he can't screw up this lineup:)
Hard to leave out- Rickey Henderson, Mantle (runner up DH)

Trent King

Probably lots of redundancy here, but here goes...

C- Johnny Bench
P- Walter Johnson
1B- Lou Gehrig
2B- Rogers Hornsby
SS- Honus Wagner
3B- Mike Schmidt
OF- Hank Aaron
OF- Ted Williams
OF- Willie Mays
DH- Babe Ruth
Relief- Bob Gibson

Manager- Sparky Angerson

Cannot leave them out...
PH- Stan Musial
PR- Roberto Clemente

C: Mike Piazza
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Jackie Robinson
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Honus Wagner
LF: Hank Aaron
RF: Babe Ruth
CF: Willie Mays
DH: Rickey Henderson

SP: Randy Johnson
RP: Satchel Paige
CL: Mariano Rivera

Lineup:
1 Rickey
2 Wagner
3 Mays
4 Ruth
5 Gehrig
6 Aaron
7 Piazza
8 Schmidt
9 Jackie

Good luck beating that team

On the bubble: Cobb, Mantle, Williams, Joe Morgan, Oscar Charleston

Alltime team
 

SP - Catfish Hunter
RP - Mariano Rivera

C - Johnny Bench
1B- Lou Gehrig
2B- Jackie Robinson
SS -Honus Wagner
3B- Brooks Robsinson

LF - Ted Williams
CF - Ty Cobb
RF - Hank Aaron
DH- Reggie Jackson

bench (honorable mentions)
Roberto Clemente
Joe Jackson

Your own list includes no one who debuted in the last 50 years. Is that more or less absurd than having no one from the 1800s?

The HOF limitation, chosen by the OP and not myself, obviously heavily restricts the modernity, an affect multiplied for this particular generation as the very best of the most recent generation to begin entering the HOF cheated and have been kept out. Players in the middle of their career are unlikely to make an all-time team for reasons I should really not have to explain.

Bonds would be here without the OP's stipulation, and the odds are decent a player active will manage to make it by the end of their career. If I included a reliever, it would be Mariano.

Can we just apply some basic common sense before trying to do a gotcha? It might help your success rate.

OK, fine. Your list includes ONE player who debuted after 1951. HALF your list debuted in 1925 or earlier with an average debut of 1930. C'mon.