HOF Golden Era Results
 

The Hall of Fame just announced that no one received the necessary 12 of 16 votes to be elected by the Golden Era committee. Dick Allen and Tony Oliva each fell one vote short. I was surprised that Gil Hodges got so little support (fewer than 3 votes). Jim Kaat got 10. Maury Wills 9, Minnie Minoso 8, all others 3 or fewer.

+1
I am surprised Dick Allen got that close.

Gil Hodges got fewer than 3 votes? Really. I find that hard to fathom, unless some of those voters had received some poison pen letters or remarks from some now deceased Veterans Committee members prior to their being selected as committeemen. I know of two now deceased voters who had very, very sharp axes to grind on Gil, and would never forgive him. ---Brian Powell

Dick Allen has great hitting stats for the amount of time he played, but his defense was very bad and he flamed out quick. I think he needed to stay on the field a little more during those 11 prime years he had. He missed 344 games during that stretch.

Oliva doesn't stack up to Allen and he missed even more time. I think he looks better because he led the league in hits and average numerous times, but he didn't walk much, so he never led the league in OBP. Unfortunately for him, injuries took away his real chance at the Hall, at least that is what I thought

Hodges dropping to three or less votes is shocking. He spent two years in the military and came back as a catcher for a short time, those two facts have to help his case.

If I had a vote and had to stick to four votes maximum, I probably would have only picked Hodges and Kaat, though Allen and Tiant are real close for me and I've gone back and forth with them. Everyone else falls short.

I don't get the Maury Wills pick at all, .661 OPS and his SB% is below average, plus his career stats don't stand out. He didn't draw walks, hit for zero power and did that as a .281 hitter. The most comparable player all-time to Wills is Luis Castillo and I'd be shocked if he got more than one pity vote. You could make a case that Castillo was slightly better. Wills gets too much credit for his short reign with the SB record and his MVP.

Gil Hodges ??
 

Care to elucidate?

Sounds like good news. The Hall has already let in too many . When I was growing up the names like Mantle, Aaron, Mays, Kaline, Snider etc. that's the HOF, not Boyer, Maz, Rizzuto, Oliva etc. Good players but not HOF.

+1

Totally agree! I wrote an article about some guys on the NFL side that have no business getting in. All the Halls of Fame are very biased towards certain teams and certain personalities. Joe Namath is the biggest joke Hall of Famer ever!

I am actually baffled that Maris and Hodges are not in given all the NY bias.

Speaking of Namath, it's interesting that his rookie card is so visible and valuable when he is at best a top 20 quarterback.

I do not follow football at all. So these comments surprised me because Namath is the most popular pre 80s quarterback I have heard of. So I assumed he was better. This shows the bias that happens when all you know is the name and nothing else about the sport's history or stats.

With Namath, it's simple. Personality goes a long way.

I could be wrong but I don't think any football person could claim he was better than Unitas, or Starr, or Tarkenton, or Dawson, or Staubach, and probably others just from the 60s/early 70s.

It's a joke that some came so close even.

Would love to see Oliva get in then all of my auto's of him would go up. He signs every other day here in MN.

Bob Johnson gets no respect..... overall stats are similar to Dick Allen's numbers but he didn't even get a mention for consideration.

Statistically he was not one of the top QBs of all time but it's more than personality with Namath. He legitimized the AFL when he signed the biggest contract in history with the Jets instead of going to the NFL. He engineered a huge Super Bowl upset that further legitimized the AFL. He was the first QB to throw for 4,000 yards in a season (14 games). He was voted first team All-AFL ahead of Len Dawson.

jeff

Hey Peter
 

I would add Sammy Baugh and Sonny Jurgensen to that list of great QB's.

The mystique regarding Joe Namath is that in 1969 he showed the NFL world that the AFL was not a 2nd class League....when he led the Jets
to a Super Bowl win over Johnny Unitas and the Baltimore Colts.

The sports world (more or less) considered Namath's victory a "fluke". But, then in 1970, Lenny Dawson followed up with his Super Bowl win
over the Vikings.

Those were great years, if you were an old AFL fan. Namath was good, but his Receiving squad, made him greater than good....Maynard, Bell,
Snell, Caster, and RB's: Boozer and Riggins (my favorite guy).

Here's my ticket stub from the greatest FB game I was ever at (Jets 44 vs. Colts 34..9/24/72). Namath threw for 496 yds. and Johnny Unitas
threw for 376 yds.)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SvsBALTx50.jpg


TED Z
.

Yep
 

Yes, all these are perfect candidates to my recently instituted "Net 54 Hall of the Very Good".

I think the 4,000 yard thing is nice but doesn't make up for the fact that he had a losing record as a starter and threw more INT's than TD's. His completion percentage I believe is at or near the bottom of Hall of Fame QBs.

If Namath played in St. Louis at the time he would be a complete after thought. I would rate Plunkett and Brodie and possibly Gabriel as better contemporary passers.


Sorry I digress. I know this is a baseball forum and therefore given my above argument I am glad to see no one made it in. There should be NO golden era committee or Veterans committee or anything the like. If you weren't good enough to get in during eligibility the you are simply not good enough.

Passer rating can be misleading, but Joe is not even in the top 150 in that department (and it doesn't depend on longevity).

Fortunately, HOFs do not, nor should they, depend solely on statistics. I was a Buffalo Bills fan as a kid and saw many games against Joe Namath. I can tell you first hand he was one of the greatest QBs of all time.

Broadway Joe seems like the Reggie Jackson of the football HOF.

Who wants to go visit the grave of Arky Vaughan and give him the bad news?

Jim Plunkett was barely a contemporary of Namath's, and threw a shotput--one of the ugliest balls I have ever seen (with apologies to Bobby Douglass). John Hadl would be a more apt comparison to Namath, given their attachment to the old AFL and its love for the long pass and flair for the big play.

I doubt Namath would ever have been an "afterhought" regardless of where he played,and I would suggest that had he quarterbacked the Chiefs or Raiders, he would have led those teams to even more success than they enjoyed as the dominant teams of that time. Note that Namath was voted/named the quarterback on the all-time AFL team, ahead of Dawson, Kemp, et al.

I was no fan of Joe Willie, especially as I lived and died with Johnny U's Colts. Still, I recall him being an incredible player to watch, and stats aside, the following tributes (per Wikipedia) are pretty high praise from those who would know:
"Hall of Fame coach Bill Walsh stated that Namath was "the most beautiful, accurate, stylish passer with the quickest release [he'd] ever seen." Hall of Fame coach Don Shula stated that Namath was "one of the three smartest quarterbacks of all time."

I agree! Its a shame how he's looked over. And how Minnie isn't in yet just pisses me off!

Good, Darwin-
 

+1, well put. I want Arky in there!

What is this mania for preserving the "standards" of the HOF? Sure, there are some clunkers in there (Hooper, Ferrell, the infamous Frisch-led infield of Kelly, Jackson, and Lindstrom), but for the most part the Veterans Committee has righted a lot of omissions that the sportswriters collectively committed.

Namath 97. This list is from the early or mid 2000s I believe.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4786953

I was a fan of Joe Willie, an avid Jets fan from 1969 - 1975......but, I have never forgiven them when they let John Riggins go (after he was their MVP in 1975).

Anyhow, having watched Joe Namath those years, and having gone to quite a few games....Todd's quote of Coach Bill Walsh describes Namath's play to the tee.
Joe was indeed quick on the release, precisely because The Jets had some great Receivers during Joe's tenure.....especially Don Maynard. These guys were real
professionals that could quickly get in the clear and had sure hands, which made Joe's task easier.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SvsBALTx50.jpg


P.S. .... I never got Joe to sign my ticket stub. But, after reminiscing with Johnny Unitas regarding this great game (9/24/72), Johnny signed it on the back.


TED Z
.

The argument that Namath is overrated.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...terbacks/6538/

Hey Peter
 

Did you personally ever see (on TV, films, or actually being at a Jets game) Joe Namath play ?

If not, then citing some pub's questionable opinion of Namath doesn't cut it in my book.


TED Z
.

Ted I am a little younger than you but yes as a teenager I saw Namath on TV including the Super Bowl. I doubt I knew the game well enough at that point to form a solid opinion at the time. An awful lot of "football people," though, support the claim that he was overrated. It makes for an interesting debate. To be clear I am not suggesting he wasn't a HOF quarterback, I am just questioning his status in some people's minds as one of the very few all time greats, most expensive post war rookie card, etc. etc.

Going back to the Cooperstown voting. Dick Allen had pretty decent HOF stats, but was known as a cancer in every clubhouse that he was in.

He was his generation's Joey Belle (that's right, Albert - it's JOE-ey, JOE-ey, JOE-ey. God, I miss chanting that at Fenway :D).

+2. If Arky's not in there, you need to kick out every SS not name Honus Wagner. I'm glad the current committee didn't elect anyone. I don't think those guys are HOFers, but looking at the back log on the ballot right now, I can see the need a few years down the road.

The Canseco "steroid" chants, with Jose responding by flexing his muscles, were good too.

Those who Blackballed Gil Hodges
 

Dave Foster----

Hiya pal. I'm sorry I couldn't get back to you regarding those who had a sharp axe to grind upon Gil Hodges with regard to voting him into the Baseball Hall of Fame. I work mid-afternoon to midnight. So, now I shall elucidate. However, please, by all means, if I am mistaken Dave, or if any one of you chaps sees a mistake here, correct me. The light I throw upon the matter is not done with a smug attitude or smile, as it's very unpleasant and says volumes about human nature.

The two individuals who were on the Veterans Committee and had it in for Gil Hodges were Ted Williams and Earl Weaver.

Ted Williams was a very proud man. He was immensely proud of what he did with the Washington Senators in 1969, turning them around and producing their first winning record, by a large margin no less, in quite a few years. However, when the The Sporting News, at the time very prestigious and authoritative, announced their Manager of the Year Award for 1969, they selected Gil Hodges. Ted Williams was very irked by that. Moreover, some scribes wrote that it was Gil Hodges, and NOT Ted Williams, that had paved the way for the lowly Senators to move up to a higher plane.

For the uninformed, Gil managed the Senators from 63-67, and every year their record got better and better, with the last year showing 76 victories, a very creditable improvement.

Those comments about Gil Hodges being the one who really deserved the credit for the Senators' 1969 performance got Ted's pot boiling. In the ensuing years, under Ted's lousy managerial skills, the team just got worse and worse, and worse. The players could not stand Ted Williams. On the contrary, most of the Mets players loved Gil Hodges, and really mourned his untimely death of a heart attack in 1972.

Ted Williams had a very large ego, and I'm sure it's what helped drive him on to be one of the greatest hitters in the game's history. But his feelings smarted over the credit and acknowledgement that Gil Hodges received as a manager. So, once Ted was in a position on the Veterans Committee, he would always blackball Gil Hodges.

Let's now move on to the other man, Earl Weaver. As opposing managers in the 1969 World Series, the Weaver-led Orioles had decimated the American League that year, coming so close to topping the league record for victories held by the vaunted 1927 New York Yankees. Or was it the 1954 Cleveland Indians? Well, anyway, the Orioles were heavy favorites over the Gil Hodges-managed New York Mets, a cinderella team if there ever was one. As a Chicago suburbanite, I was a Cubs fan, not a Mets fan, by the way.

Well, you know most of the rest. After the Orioles won the first game, the Mets took the next four. It was all over for the Orioles, and Earl Weaver was denounced, while Gil Hodges was lauded. Perhaps the most galling episode in that series was when Gil Hodges showed the umpire the black shoe polish on the baseball that proved it had hit Cleon Jones. Jones is awarded first base. Brilliant! Next batter, Donn Clendenon, socks a home run! The Orioles were shot down again, and again, and again. Earl Weaver was humiliated.

But there was more.

In the following year, one of the best baseball all-star games took place. The National League had been on a roll, but the AL was strong and determined. Opposing managers? That's right. Gil Hodges versus Earl Weaver again. The National League had come from behind to tie it after nine innings, and so it was nail biting until finally in the twelfth, Pete Rose bowled over Cleveland catcher Ray Fosse and scored the winning run. To this day, I still remember the excitement of that play as I watched it on national TV. Maybe you saw it too.

Well, the same results echoed in the ears of losing manager Earl Weaver, for once again, the National League had come from behind to snatch another victory from the Americans. Again Gil Hodges was raised to the rafters, while Weaver was earning a reputation of championship decrepitude.

In the minds of many, all that was forgotten as the Orioles took it all that year over The Big Red Machine. Weaver would eventually win two Sporting News Manager of the Year awards. Still, the echoes of those smashing defeats at the hands of Hodges as his opposing manager rang in Earl's ears forever. Gil's premature death only meant that Earl would never have the chance to show that he could outsmart and out-manage Gil. Gil Hodges was a better manager than Earl, period.

However, Earl Weaver, when he became a member of the Veterans Committee, used all his power and influence to blackball Gil Hodges from being enshrined in the Hall---'til the day Weaver died.

There ya have it, Dave. Now that I've written it, I feel a bit depressed. There is so much truth in the saying, "the truth hurts."

Enough of my elaboration. Take care. ----Brian Powell

Peter
 

I'll tell you from where I'm coming from. As a kid in the 1950's, I saw Sammy Baugh play (near the end of his career). Then I started following Johnny Unitas and Sonny Jurgensen.
Loved these guys.

When I returned to civilian life (Air Force 1960-64) I started following FB again and I took a liking to Len Dawson and KC....and, then the Jets when Namath arrived. I was regularly
kidded by my FB buddies for being a fan of the AFL.

But, I certainly had the last laugh in 1969 and 1970.

The 4 seasons from 1966 to 1969 (when Broadway Joe was healthy), the Jets had a 35 - 18 - 3 record. Namath was at his best; but, after those years his injuries preventing him
from continuing to have a really great career. Those big bruisers on the opposing teams were out to get him.....and, they did.


TED Z
.

Ted I grew up in Washington, DC area. Jurgensen was phenomenal, an incredibly accurate passer. It is still incredible to me that George Allen started Kilmer over him at the end of his career when he could still play. The Redskins teams until the very end of Jurgensen's career were horrible. God only knows how far he could have gone with a decent team. The man could flat out throw. There is a story, probably apocryphal, that he was asked if he could hit a receiver in the eye at 40 yards. He asked, which eye?

PS After Sonny retired, when he was an announcer (a beloved one at that, a fixture of Redskins radio coverage for decades), my Dad had the good fortune of sitting next to him on a cross country flight out of DC. Sonny, shall we say, had a few, and apparently had some very choice things to say about being demoted to second string in favor of Billy Kilmer. I wish I had been there.

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1352646] There is a story, probably apocryphal, that he was asked if he could hit a receiver in the eye at 40 yards. He asked, which eye?

Peter, I've read virtually the same story, but it's not apocryphal. However, the story concerned a question asked to one of Sonny's predecessors, the beloved Sammy Baugh. ---Brian Powell

Sonny Jurgensen
 

Peter

In 1973 and '74, I switched to following the REDSKINS (with Namath's injuries, the Jets were no longer a contender) to see Sonny Jurgensen play.

And, yes Kilmer was usually the starting QB then. However, by the 4th Q Kilmer would be in trouble and George Allen would send in Sonny. And invariably, Sonny would turn the
game around and save the day. Sonny's stats confirm this in that Sonny played in all 14 games in each of the '73 and '74 seasons.

Sonny would conduct his 5 - 15 minute drill in which he would zing to the left and to the right and down mid field the most precise screen passes to Larry Brown, Charley Taylor,
Roy Jefferson, Jerry Smith, etc.

Peter....I haven't seen the likes of Sonny and his passing accuracy in the NFL since those days. The REDSKINS were 20 - 8 in '73 and '74.

I would have given my T206 Wagner to have sat next to Sonny Jurgensen on a 6 hour flight :)


TED Z
.

I would have voted for Gil Hodges--Dick Allen--Tony Oliva----Another thought is Roger Maris (is he off the ballot) Also for a 4 year run Check Ted Kluszewski 1953 .320 40HR--108RBi 1954 .316 49HR 141 Rbi---1955 .326 47HR 113 Rbi 1956 .314 35HR 102 RBi---I don't know what happened to him after that maybe injuries but if he would have hit like that for 10 years Wow----As for Joe Namath, he gets my vote--The Super Bowl of course was unique, but he had injuries most of his career---What would he have done in todays football Passing crazy era.

Don he probably would do just what he did in his day -- throw a lot more picks than touchdowns. :)

+1

I am not a stats only guy if I was Dave Krieg would have been in the Football Hall a long time ago.

I've always loved the story that Jurgensen tells occasionally (although I'm not sure I recall all of the details) about the time he dined at Johnny Unitas's restaurant named "The Golden Arm" in the late '60s. Johnny thanked Sonny for coming up to Baltimore from DC and Sonny replied, "It's a pleasure -- and thanks for naming your restaurant after me." Ha!!!!

That's false. Allen's teammates - Goose Gossage and Mike Schmidt, to name two - and managers (Gene Mauch) all praised Allen as a teammate and competitor. The "cancer" thing comes from him taking the job of a white teammate early in his career and an ensuing fight that was not his fault.

Those who Blackballed Gil Hodges
 

Brian - thanks for taking the time to give a very interesting analysis.

Dave F.

Dick Allen
 

For what it's worth.

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Similarity is sometimes useful, sometimes not. Dick Allen was a dominant force in his era, leading the league in OPS four times and finishing with a career OPS+ of 156. Listing his "similar" guys doesn't really show how truly dominant he was during his career.

At a quick glance, Colavito's run of big seasons appears superior to Allen's, except he wasn't winning titles because of guys like Maris and Mantle. Three 40 HR seasons, Allen had one. Six 100 RBI years, I believe Allen had only 2 or 3.

If either Dick Allen or Tony Oliva belongs in the Hall with their 'abbreviated' careers, then wouldn't Don Mattingly be an absolute no-brainer??? 2100 hits, 1000+ RBI's and a .307 average in a career destroyed by injuries. He was a dominant force at the plate and far from shabby at first base.

For what it is worth, the ballot got it right in my opinion. Of the group, I like Hodges and Kaat the best but to call them Hall of Fame players, not so much. You could argue positive for any player on this list but to vote somebody in just because they are on the ballot does nothing for the Hall.

Now the crime of the balloting for the Hall of Fame is not having voted Lee Smith into the Hall already. In his day, he was the premier closer in an era when the closers ofter threw more than one inning. On top of it, he is a first rate human being. Probably won't be elected this year due to some really good players coming on to the ballot for the first time but he does belong in the Hall.

Dick Allen had 9 post season at bats. Wow. That didn't help him I guess.