Ruth auto on Ebay - Opinions??
 

Here's a Ruth auto on ebay that looks pretty good to my untrained eye...though the story sounds a bit fishy. I submitted a request to PSA for a "quick opinion"...still waiting to hear back.

Any thoughts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121077937301...torefresh=true

Disregard...just got my response from PSA (fastest turn around time I've had with them). Came back as "likely not geniune". I'll keep searching...

That finally explains all the Babe Ruth forgeries available - the forgers were simply competing in an autograph contest.

JimStinson
 

The story is very plausible , "Waterman's" was a contest for kids the company used the contest to promote their pens , I think the winners got a free pen or something.

For many youngsters back then it was their first introduction to autograph collecting. I've bought quite a few of those books over the years and while they may have occasionally had a secretarial autograph or two for the most part they are almost always good.
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jim@stinsonsports.com
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JimStinson
 

I don't know who the seller is but I looked at the other autographs from the "Waterman's" book that he has listed including Calvin Coolidge, Orville Wright, George Eastman, Will Rogers etc. and they are all spot on , So the story seems to add up fine. Curious to me how the "likely not genuine" was rendered so casually if that was indeed the case.

Also in the 1930's and toward the end of his career Babe Ruth would pre-sign blank cards , like business cards but blank. And send them through the mail or even hand them out in person. The date of the Waterman's letter 1932 fits this time frame perfectly and the e-bay offered Ruth looks like one of those. Have attached a scan here for comparison of a genuine Ruth from the same era.
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jim@stinsonsports.com

Thank you for giving this answer Jim. I was going to write a long reply when I returned home and you saved me the trouble. I am also familiar with the Waterman's books and have seen quite a few for sale over the years. The best ones were crammed with additional letters and photos. I also looked at all of the others and was comfortable with the Alfred E. Smith and Calvin Coolidge.

With my layman's eye, this auto looks great. I was actually very suprised that it came back with a "likely not genuine"....not to mention how fast the opinion was rendered. Thought I may have been missing something obviously wrong with the auto.

As much as I like it, just don't know if I have the balls to go against the quick opinion.

Damn...maybe PSA does know what they're doing. Just saw that the listing has been removed already.

The listing was removed because PSA said it was bad. Not because it actually is bad.

JimStinson
 

Wish someone had saved a copy of it as I think it would be an excellent subject for discussion.
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jim@stinsonsports.com

Is this it? I pulled it out of my browser cache.

Okay, I'll go out on a limb and say...

...the same guy who signed that card, also signed this ball auctioned by Heritage last October: Heritage Babe Ruth Ball and it DOES have a PSA/DNA LOA:

http://www.extravaganzi.com/wp-conte...-1-600x589.jpg

Why?

The "a" has a totally different shape. On the ball, you can see the flow, confidence and fast speed with which the "abe" was constructed. It has a "bounce" to it.

To me, the "abe" on the card appears tentative and drawn. The stem of the second b is especially wobbly looking. No "bounce"... a flat looking signature.

Maybe they are both good, maybe they aren't. It's not my area of expertise. But just using general autograph analysis, it seems to me there are notable differences between the two.

:)

I see a methodically drawn "Babe Ruth."

Attachment 91182

I also see a "very thin limb."

Here they are close together...

Very interesting as there are definitely some glaring similarities; angles, slant, flow of the entire sig as a whole as well as many of the individual letters; end of the "b" through the "e" and the start of the "R".

However, the one up top(ebay) looks slowly drawn; each letter starting and ending with much thought(ex: end of the R/start if the U). And then there is the obvious "a" but I agree with most that one letter does not define a piece.

To me, the one on the bottom looks like one would sign their own name on a ball like they have done it without thinking. The one on the top looks like one a very good forger would do on a flat looking at a similar exemplar as the ball and done it before. IMNHO

I went back and forth on this one for a bit here but thought I should give a definitive opinion either way if I was going to open my yapper.. The problem is, I am not expert on Ruth Signatures.

Any of our autograph experts on here actually have a difinitive opinion??? Psa dna gave their opinion. What is yours?? Way to give a opinion either way Scott..Good post.

I completely see your points - thanks. I got hung up on the end of 'Ruth', which normally the forgers screw up badly.

Yep, I see your points as well. I guess I've been looking at that green '27 Yankees ball too long, so my definition of 'slowly written' has changed.

JimStinson
 

What about compared to this one ? Differences ? Similarities ?
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jim@stinsonsports.com

I am by no means an expert either, but it does appear as though the "a" on the ball and the earlier example provided by Jim are much more alike than the ebay offering.

Jim,

Can you give us your opinions?

Ben

??????? (this is fun)

The one on the left is PSA/DNA authenticated. I've seen this same style 'R' authenticated plenty of times - is it characteristic of a particular Ruth signing period?

Since I've already gone out on a 'thin limb' (that the limb-referencer was unwilling to join me on...or even to approach the tree), and since I'm not a professional authenticator and therefore can go out on such limbs without fear :)...

1. overall - letters in left one aren't proportionate to one another (left side of 'a' higher than right side; same for 'u')
2. overall - left one is written more slowly
3. left one - bottom of letters don't form as straight a line
4. left one - loop in middle of 'B'
5. left one - loopier bottom of 'h'
6. similarity - both somewhat slowly written, but not as slow as the Ruth in the green ball
7. similarity - 't' shorter than 'h', general slant of letters

It seems like most people are kind of afraid to express their opinions about Babe Ruth autographs.

Since Ruth autographs are the most commonly forged, and many have gotten by the authenticators, I don't see the harm in going over the problems in detail so that we can avoid getting fooled in the future. The fact that a 'good' single-signed Ruth ball will sell in a major auction for over a $100K, but a questionable one will still sell in a major auction, but for much, much less, indicates that collectors will pay a helluva lot of money for something they have serious doubts about. That just seems plain stupid to me.

My opinion: Don't buy a Ruth autograph on Ebay.

If a dealer has to go to ebay to sell a Ruth autograph it does not say very much about that dealer.
I could sell 20 Ruth autographs easily at this moment by selling to my mailing list clients.

I would agree that makes sense for big established dealers. But, I'd think small time ones or private collectors may go the eBay route with real Ruth autos out of convenience and to reach the most potential buyers. I think there are plenty of good Ruth's sold on eBay, but buyers need to be careful and do research before any major purchase like a Ruth. I think some dealers use eBay to try and draw people to their own sites sometimes.

Perhaps you should go to ebay and buy 20 so you can keep up with your high demand???

Do you have opinions on the Ruth's within this thread? That is what this thread is about after all.

Wow, I made a post that was OT. Sorry about that Ben, did not know you had such strong feelings about that.
I do have high demand for Ruth autographs but as the people on my list know, I try to charge reasonable prices for my items.
There are no Ruth autographs on ebay that I can buy for resale.
Thanks for your advice Ben, unfortunately it does me no good.