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good read interesting info

Andrew- I don't see the Wilhelm "suffered" variation on your list.

I don't know if this matters or is relevant or not but my T205 Doc White has quotes around his name on the back. It is a Piedmont back.

David

Hey good buddy

Don't forget Phelan (the 12th Minor Leaguer).

Regarding Eddie Collins (mouth closed) vs (mouth open)....it appears to me that there is a 2 to 1, respectively ratio of availability.

Do you concur ?

This is great stuff.....thanks for posting.

TED Z

I think Andrew has done well with most of his list and opinions. However, I feel there are a few problems with Andrew's list. First off, you cannot just go by the number of backs a card is available with. Several of these cards are rare even though they come with several different backs. Also, several cards are missing from this list that are actually fairly rare.

The Collins and Breshnahan mouth open are rare (As with several of the other front changes like Ford, Chase, Wiltse, Harmon, etc). They are just not seen as often as the others. In fact, in my research, they are both pretty difficult cards. It is not collector's hoarding them (Joss) or a bump because of popularity and scandal (Cicotte). They are truly in smaller numbers.

Andrew leaves off a few as well...Vaugn, Rowan, Fisher, Sweeney, and possibly Walsh (just not convinced yet but many collectors say this is tougher than many)
These cards are not only historically difficult but seem to be short printed.

The print runs are unknown. Years ago, I ventured that the 12 minor leaguers replaced some of the rarer cards in the set in the middle of the print run. I think this happened with some of the variations as well. I think this probably happened after Addie Joss died as well. This means that although they had different advertising, it was because when the run stopped at one advertising, the plates were changed before the next advertising back was run. I also feel that some cards might have been changed in the middle of the run and some sheets could have been double printed while one sheet was changed. It is impossible to know without detailed factory information.

Joshua

I'm inclined to agree with you. For my mouth open card of Eddie Collins with the miscut back indicates that it was Double-Printed.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...smiscut50x.jpg.http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...insWCbk50x.jpg

Thanks,

TED Z

Andrew,

Thank you. I don't have many T205's (14) and the ones I do have, I bought at a small country auction back in the 1990's.

I was happy to see two of my cards on your list of Short Prints or rarities, J. Collins and Turner. The Collins has a Hassan back and the Turner has a Piedmont.

So, of the 14 cards I own, I have two HOF's (Griffith and Jennings) two Short Prints and doubles of Stovall (two different backs).

I say that I am happy because I remember driving for hours to gt to this auction only to find the tobacco cards as being a small number of T206's and these T205's and all in G to VG (maybe) condition.

So, even though I didn't pay much per card (maybe $3 dollars if I remember correctly?) all these years I have been disappointed because I thought for so few cards and for as bad of condition as the cards were in, that drive wasn't worth it.

Now, I see things aren't as bad as I had thought. I say this also because the big SCD price guide shows the Collins and Turner as more valuable than regular commons. I didn't know why but now I do and see that if I ever have to sell these cards then these two, even in the condition they are in, will have some people be interested in them just because of their rarity.

Finally, I think a few months ago someone (you?) was doing a poll or taking a census of T205's. Anyway, I submitted a list of mine but I do not know if whoever was taking the census ever received my info.

Thanks again,

David

Hey David, if you ever want to sell your jimmy Collins let me know

benderbroeth,

Thanks, I will.

David

Anyone who has put the set together can attest to the scarcity of the Fisher card. I don't know why it is so tough but it is. I have seen more Vaughns and Rowans lately than ever before, maybe collectors were hoarding them because of perceived scarcity.

Great stuff, but I disagree on your ranking of the two Wallace/no cap variations.

Anyone else have thoughts on that one?

One thing in regard to using the back count as a basis of scarcity, is the unknown fact of exactly how many press runs were made of each back. You could have a very low back count with a lot of press runs or a high number or backs available with low runs of all. It's an unknown factor. This would account for some differences in perceived scarcity vs. backs.

Scott said it better than I did about the print runs...

I also meant that the SPs could have replaced other players before print runs of different advertising...let's say that Adkins replaces Grant...Grant is printed with the Hassan 30, Cycle, and Piedmont while Adkins is then only printed with the Hassan 649 and Polar Bear runs. There is no way to know how many print passes were for each one but I can tell you that Grant is much harder than Adkins. To me, this means that the Adkins was printed on far more passes and that even though Grant appears on more advertising backs, he is certainly rarer than the Adkins.

Joshua

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pup6913 (Post 1063630)

I wanted to do an actual break down of the set to separate the SP's and variations based on numbers and not opinions.

I have found that all cards in the set can be found with 5 backs or more except the following cards. These cards can only be found with 3 backs or less with one of the backs being very scare in the printing of them. I have included the Minor Leaguers into this area due to print run.

The first group are Minor League players. These cards are found with only Hassan Fact. 649 and Polar Bear Fact. 6 backs. The PB backs are the scarcer of the two and rarely commands much higher than normal prices. This may be caused by the fact the cards are already SP and obtaining them in any condition above VG is difficult on a normal basis. These cards are available regularly in Auth-VG for decent prices.

Adkins
Batch
Cady
J. Collins
Dunn
Frick
Hanford
Lee
McAllister
Merrit
Nee
Phelan

The second group are cards found with only 3 backs and are the remaining true SP's in the set. Theses cards can only be found with Hassan Fact. 30, Piedmont Fact. 25, and Cycle Fact. 25 backs(unless stated). The Cycle backs are rarely seen on these cards and should command much higher than normal prices for these cards.

Bresnahan Mouth Open
Dahlen
Donahue
Graham Cubs
Grant
Harmon Left Ear
Joss
Karger
Kleinow
Raymond
Shean Cubs (Hassan and PB)
Suggs
Turner
Wagner
Wilhelm

The Variations in the set are listed as print variations and different fronts. There seems to be controversy as to what defines a variation. As seen in the T206 set, all it takes is a simple quotation mark, period, letter, logo, ect., ect., to create a variation and possibly extreme pricing. The new master list created by Ron Korn@cki and many board members has shed light to many about some lesser know variations and seems to have created a new found interest to some collectors. This is great news considering the T205 set, hailed by some as the most beautiful set ever created, has always been in the shadows of the Monster. I have listed the variations according to scarcity under their names. I can say that there are several cards in the T205 set that are slotted incorrectly according to my research compared to guides, so I have done the best I can in listing them correctly and included back counts at the end. Please remember as more cards are confirmed for Miller the numbers will change.

Hoblitzell:
No Stats (1)
No Cin name correct (2)
No Cin name incorrect (1)
Cin after 1908 (9)

Crandall:
T not crossed (2)
T crossed (9)

Latham:
Period before A (HLC backed only, also faint upside down W present on some) (1)
W.A. Latham (1)
A.Latham (11)

Leifield:
AP on front (4)
A on front (5)

Wallace:
2 Lines 1910 (3)
1 Line 1910 (4)

Doc White:
No/Partial Quotes (1) Both seem to be of equal amounts so far so neither is scarcer.
Quotes (4)

Mathewson:
1 Loss (1)
11 Loss (8)

Miller:
B (2)
D over B (2)
D (4)

Moran:
Stray line (2)
No Line (11)

Doughtery:
White Sox (4)
Red Sox (4)

Collins:
Yellow Elephant (1)
White Elephant (5)

Chase:
No Border on Shirt (5)
Border on Shirt (8)

Grey:
Stats (2)
No Stats (5)

Wilhelm:
Suffered (2)
Suffe ed (1)

The cards like Chase Left Ear, Harmon Left Ear, Barger Partial B, Graham Cubs, Graham Black Sig, Graham Blue Sig, Shean Cubs, Ford White cap and Black cap(separate runs due to the black cap being available for Hindu, White cap available for a Drum back), Wiltse Right Ear, Bresnahan Open Mouth are cards of their own. Those cards are not Variations in the set but another card printed uniquely and should be listed as such. Where cards found above are actual errors created during the printing process, and were possibly corrected.

All the info posted is based on my information I have gathered over the yrs. If I don't have the scan or marked down on my sheet then I would need to see proof of the cards existence to prove otherwise. There are several cards listed above that have discrepancies when compared to the Master List. I do not think the cards in question on the master list are correct and may have been typos. Pop reports, pics, auctions, and my list compile the data I have for the last 5-6 yrs. I would like to see any back scans you may have to help confirm new cards(Such as Harmon Left Ear PB). I look forward to discussing this further and welcome any questions.

You can add Pathetically Sad Authenticators to your PSA definitions
They plain SUCK!
FU JOE O

Thanks for the responses regarding the Wallace variations. I have both, so it's not a personal angst issue :)

Wow, I'm glad I read this thread. I don't collect these cards but I've always liked T205's, mostly the Minor league cards.

Thank you all for sharing this information, I learned alot reading this thread. This is one of the many great things I like about Net54, collectors willing to share their research- great job guys !!

Sincerely, Clayton