Seemingly enhanced/altered Harry Truman signed baseball featured on haulsofshame.com
 

Anyone have an opinion on how one poor quality and one very high quality truman signed baseball, that went through two different auctions a few months apart can look one way at one auction, and presto chango, now it is a pristine Truman signed ball when it was once a poor quality signature?

How can this happen? Isn't this the type of stuff the hobby should be investigating, or because it has a certain groups name on it, we shall give it a pass?

november 2004, low grade signature, coa john reznikoff psa/dna and rr auction coa.

Feb. 2005, now it's at EAC Gallery, with "Provenance" John Reznikoff.

Isn't this something the hobby watchdogs should dig into and figure out how this can happen to our beloved autograph collecting hobby? Even if it is to clear the authenticators name or auction house of any wrongdoing, especially to do that if they didn't have anything to do with it? And to find out just who did have something to do with it?

What's the authenticators role in this? Was it a fake letter of provenance foisted upon the public without the authenticators knowledge, or did the authenticator give a coa to the "before" ball, and also a letter of provenance to the "after" ball? Let's find out what happened.

Are some things off limits? This is a huge deal, and something tells me if it were up on ebay with Mew Drax coa people would be all over it like jackals?

Where's the emails sent, the rhetorical questions from the hotseat with flashlight shining in eyes, the dragnet interrogation?

Oh, that's right, it's the guys with the free pass so forget it. The person who paid good money and ended up with this gem doesn't deserve our help? I think he does.

I think when an autograph comes with a LOA from Company X, EAC calls that the provenance. Just their idiosyncratic way of describing things. At EAC, "PSA provenance" means it has a PSA LOA-- usually nothing more.

I would guess the first auction's COA is the "provenance" in the second auction, and there is no second Reznikoff document. Just my guess.

It does not seem they would be able to enclose the first coa to the winning bidder on the eac auction because it shows the original faded signature on the ball. plus eac could see for themselves it is not the same faded signature, but a bold one now so how could they auction it off? to me, they didn't have the original coa unless someone took the original coa and changed out photos.

Sounds like a good question for Larry Rosenbaum...the biggest question here is how did the auction companies sell with the COA's showing different pictures and was the previous COA's even sent to the buyer?

Seriously, who would take a vintage piece of history like that and have the BALLS to even attempt to trace over it? I understand the money, but it seems like such a risky move. Clearly the same ball. I would think "tracing" back the chain of title on something like this could be very easily done and the culprit could be found.

But if everyone's pockets are getting bigger, why make the effort...:(

Travis wrote "Isn't this something the hobby watchdogs should dig into and figure out how this can happen to our beloved autograph collecting hobby? Even if it is to clear the authenticators name or auction house of any wrongdoing, especially to do that if they didn't have anything to do with it? And to find out just who did have something to do with it?"

You're already doing it, Travis, so what's your beef?

I didn't know what the first COA looked like and just assumed it was one of those pictureless auction house PSA loas.

I just had a great conversation with Larry Rosenbaum at EAC Gallery and here is what he said...
Anytime they list an item that has been professionally restored, they mention that in the listing....He said that he is not sure why this particular listing omitted that and that the buyer was contacted and a credit/refund was issued because obviously it wouldn't have sold for that amount if it had stated "restored".

He also stated that there specialty is historic documents, not sports and that they bring in an authenticator like PSA or JSA to tell handle the authenticity of the item....

As far as the "provenance" or previous LOA for the item, he did not have any info on that as, he stated, it happened almost 7 years ago.

Clearly, something shady going on.

Um, I believe it HAS been investigated, as the article quotes from the book "Collecting Signatures of the Presidents of the United States on Baseballs" in which this fraud was pointed out. Doesn't sound like a pass to me.

David explained the wording of EAC Gallery's write-ups and their use of the term "provenance." The R&R Auction write-up reads:

"Official Reach American League (William Harridge) baseball signed in fountain pen on a side panel, 'Harry S. Truman, 4-12-56.' In good condition, with several strokes of signature light, but legible, date a bit harder to see, a light shade of toning to ball and a small application of shellac over signature. COA John Reznikoff/PSA/DNA and RRAuction COA."

http://rrauction.com/past_auction_item.cfm?ID=3091931

It does not state whether it is a full-photo LOA or not, so without seeing the original "pre-enhancement" LOA, we don't know if it could have been passed along with the ball "post-enhancement" or not.

Again, referring to David's comment on EAC's typical use of the word "provenance," I think the situation is far more easily explained by this take on the situation: The ball was examined and an LOA issued for it when it came to R&R in 2004. I don't know if that was a full-photo LOA, or one which described but did not picture the actual ball. As it appears that the letter continued on with the ball when it came to EAC in 2005, I would assume the latter. It's clear from the photos shown that the signature was somehow "enhanced," whether by physical or chemical processes applied to the ball itself, or by enhancing the digital photo of the ball.

Nobody said anything about free passes or whether the buyer deserves help. You consistently make comments like this in your opening post, before anyone even has a chance to make the arguments that you are defending against. If you had been shouting about this for the last 7 years and nobody said anything in response, then you would have a point in screaming "cover-up."

I think the thing to remember is that there are a LOT of auctions with a LOT of signed items in them every year, and tons of items being flipped between them. Thousands and thousands of signatures at all different price levels. There is a reasonable expectation that SOME "enhancements" like this will be caught by someone whose memory is triggered when they see it the second time, but to imply that EVERY such enhancement is spied at the time it is reintroduced to the market and somehow allowed to pass based on the authenticator is a bit far-fetched, don't you think? To me, it screams more of massive "didn't notice" than of massive "cover-up."

Frankly, I find it a bit insulting for you to imply that autograph enthusiasts as a whole just "gave a pass" on something like this, when you yourself didn't mention it either for 7 years, and only brought it up after it appeared in a haulsofshame article.

Besides, you didn't use the term "sacred cow" once in your post, so how do we know it's really you posting this? Now THERE'S a conspiracy theory I'd like to explore ;)

If the PSA LOA (some might call it 'provenance') is just the one LOA from the first sale (and that was reused for the second sale), it would appear PSA did nothing errant. All the restoration and resale would have happened after the fact. And there's no evidence PSA issued a second LOA. In fact, my guess is they didn't.

Lance, that was funny.

Again, excuse my ignorance which apparently runs very deep in regards to collecting, are there issues with PSA/DNA as well as JSA authentications?

In a word, yes!

....are there issues with PSA/DNA as well as JSA authentications?

Quite a few, and new ones come to light every week. Do a search on here in regard to PSA/DNA and JSA and your eyes will be opened.

I'd say. Here's a pair of multiple signed gloves in which both are allegedly signed by Rocky Marciano. I just got done going through 350 Marciano exemplars and can not come up with one that comes close to resembling these. Slow and child-like writing, atypical letter formations, the way the "ky" in "Rocky" changes direction and goes upward in both examples. My opinion and other boxing collectors opinions I've talked to have come to an easy and definitive "no" yet it is signed-off on by PSA/DNA, and in particular someone named Joe Orlando who is listed as "President" on their web site.

http://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano,Ro...2015e%20SR.jpghttp://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano,Ro...2016e%20SR.jpg
http://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano,Ro...2015f%20SR.jpghttp://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano,Ro...2016f%20SR.jpg

As an insulted collector of vintage boxing autographs I'd like to invite Joe Orlando to come on here and show us the supporting evidence/exemplars for these two Rocky Marciano autographs. If he has no supporting evidence/exemplars for these two Marciano autographs what are we to assume? Does this company add false value to non-authentic items? At $1,700 with plenty of time remaining!

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

Mark makes a salient point. I can't find any Marciano's that match that either, and I have studied boxing autographs for over 20 years, like he has.

it looks childish, with no control to the autograph that would put it close to what marciano has been known to sign. We see other gloves signed by Marciano and his glove signature matches very close to his paper signature. But here we have a crazy signature by Marciano.

I don't think they have a problem using the weighscale method of authenticating. which in my view means 51 probability versus 49 percent not, means it get approved. I have to have 100 percent or it would be at least a no opinion, because you have to back that signature up using exemplars and knowledge gained over the years, and they see a Marciano sig on a glove and figure it must be good, but show me another one like that.

but if its signed by joe orlando, he must be the boxing guy there, so his opinion has a lot of weight among the long time boxing collectors with 20, 30, 40 years experience. NOT! Among the old time collectors and dealers, these certs by psa and jsa are considered a joke, they really are. They don't know firpo. they don't know Sullivan, they dont know liston, they dont know Ali, they don't know Dempsey.

there is no such thing as a restored autograph. because it happened 7 years ago is no excuse not to figure out what happened with the provenance.

if restored autographs in sports is acceptable, then there is a lot of "restored" autograph for sale all over the place, it's called no good.

a big question is how it was restored, does eac know how because it is scary to think how many more autographs out there are "restored" like that?

how can it be listed as the finest truman signed ball extant, if it isn't trumans signature, but "restored"

I am not buying that restored excuse. there is no such thing as a restored autograph. no fault of yours james, thanks for getting the explanation.

If eac knew it was "restored" they should have rejected the signed ball at the least and contacting authorities wouldn't have been out of the question. to say that they specialize in historical items is a cop out. Reznikoff knows darn well that "restored" sports autographs is something that doesn't exist. This stinks.

Absolutely true.

yep, when regular people try to restore an autograph by tracing over the very faint remnants, its called a trace over job, makes the auto totally worthless. when other people do it, it's now called "restored"?

All great points. I simply called Larry to hear his side of the story...Travis, like I said in my PM to you, he washed is hands of the whole deal. :(

Sorry, but this does not fit the narrative the OP wishes to convey.

I read the Hauls of Shame article. While rife with innuendo and unrelated red herrings purely meant to embarass, I didn't see a shred of evidence a new LOA was issued since the original.

Incidentally, I continue to see statements implying there will be indictments handed down (wishful thinking) to PSA/DNA in regard to the Mastro case. Do these people realize that the card grading component PSA, is not the same as the autograph authentication division PSA/DNA? Or do they realize that but just throw PSA/DNA into the article to muddy them up?

Steve, you must have been reading my mind. You just saved me a lot of typing.

Steve, is there any connection between Autograph Magazine (published by Steve Cyrkin), and Collectors Universe?

So...as a new collector who knows next to nothing about legitimate vs non-legitimate signatures which authentication service can be trusted? MLB? Steiner? None?

The third one on your list.

Adam,

I think as a new collector, you would be best served reading through older posts first to kind of come up to speed, and then ask questions to clarify or fill in the gaps. I know it's not the easiest thing to hear "do your homework first," and I don't mean that to be rude, but consider also that even in asking a question as simple as "who can I trust," without having any background info to frame the answer(s) offered, you really can't judge whether the response itself is trustworthy.

That's not to say that I think anyone here is lying to you or trying to mislead you, but particularly when you start talking Third Party Authenticators or Grading, you're likely to get twice as many answers as there are TPA's, every response you get is going to have a "history" behind it.

they all do. the excuse that it was a long time ago doesn't wash with me either. thanks for talking to them, i appreciate it.

no one is home so i will answer.

cyrkin was one of the founder of pcgs, and collectors universe, he invested 10,000 dollars for 10 percent of pcgs, the coin grading company, and ultimate ended up with over a million shares of stock (about 5 percent) in collectors universe stock when it brought in pcgs. He goes out of his way for no one to know this. no one is suppose to know. He wants people to think he is impartial, and in order to blog on autograph magazine live you have to follow the company line or you are out. Thus the PSA defenders who wants to keep their blogging card there and stay in his good graces.

Steve Z. was one of the biggest psa critics (read his old articles) until he had a road to Damascus conversion somehow. But PSA/DNA hasn't changed their stripes one bit along the way. Why are they the best thing since sliced bread now, but back then they were the object of his derision? I don't know.

http://www.pcgs.com/Articles/Detail/3740

http://clct.client.shareholder.com/s...10&CIK=1089143

page 57


http://zipper68.blogspot.com/2004/06/psadna-goof.html

http://zipper68.blogspot.com/2004/06...s-autopen.html

http://www.richardsimonsports.com/barrons.htm

I've been doing a great deal of reading through older posts since I joined and have already learned a great deal. I in no way take your suggestion to be rude. Quite the contrary, I find it to be sound advice. I'll continue reading the older threads in an attempt to answer some of my questions. Thanks for the response.

Amazing! Thanks Travis! I had no real reason for asking except this: I could never figure out why those two guys will never utter a bad word about PSA. The only other thing the two seem to have in common is blogging for Cyrkin's Autograph Magazine Live. So I wondered if there could be a connection...

Ain't critical thinking wonderful?

yes, and i give footnotes and examples so they can't say I am making stuff up. They hate that.


The truman ball, according to haulsofshame, was listed by eac galleries as pristine, and "finest example extant"

The meaning of the word pristine is:

original, pure, uncorrupted, untouched, unspoiled.

this is exactly the opposite of what it was.

obviously listing it as pristine was not a "mistake" by a few bumbling people who didnt know sports because they were primarily a historical auction house.


a harry truman signature IS a historical signature.

there is more to this story, there has to be. i find it hard to believe someone would clean up the ball, enhance it and then send it off to an auction house, and not do that to any other pieces. a one-off? unlikely.


but i have never seen any other balls or signatures offered at auction houses or anywhere else listed as "restored", so are they being foisted off on the general public as pristine, and finest examples? looks like a good case for the fbi.

there are a lot of people that want haulsofshame.com to go away. that site is digging too deep in areas that are deemed "off limits" by the old guard who want to keep their power, prestige, and money making abilities the same way they are now. they want the status quo.

Indicting Mastro was looking in the wrong area for these people. the 10 dollar mickey mantles is where we should look, not the petty offenses by this big company or that one. They are supposedly "cleaning up the hobby" so they are entitled to a few infractions if it makes the hobby safer for everyone? because without them, we would have the wild west. Well, guess what, we have the wild west WITH THEM!

We can't even keep up with just the boxing mistakes. It's incredibly unbelievable! Just think about basketball, football where there are no people who come forward and show just how they are handling those sports in the autograph arena. I have had people say, "well, i guess they need a little work on boxing, but they are good at the rest."

but if my specialty and mark's specialty was football instead, then they would just need work on football and they would be great at boxing I suppose.

well, we just happen to expose the sport that we know well. Other sports go unreported but would the results be different?

I would like to respectfully disagree with this statement. While nothing beats in-person autographs, MLB, Steiner, MAB, and TriStar holograms are as good as it gets. (Along with the old Sportsworld Collectibles who, to my knowledge, were some of the first with numbered holograms.) These are always from private or public signings, although watch Steiner because they sometimes sell vintage stuff; I can't speak for them much because I rarely buy from them.

Of course, this only helps with newer autos. Mantle, DiMag, and anyone before them pre-date the holograms, so if you want vintage, well, keep doing homework.


Ken

Thanks for the input Ken. It's much appreciated.

If Atkatz is referring to Mr. Zipper and me as the "two guys" then, of course, I can only answer for myself.

You're right, Travis and Atkatz, I will not bash PSA. I've had the same agenda for over eight (8) years now and have never deviated from it. I have my own agenda, and despite the threats, and attempts at intimidation over the past eight years, I have continued without interruption. I would never allow anyone who threatens me or attempts to intimidate me, to stop me from doing what I do.

I have no reason to bash PSA. Why should I bash a company that gets it right well over 95% of the time? If Travis and Atkatz want to bash PSA, that's their right. Neither of you have been censored here, have you? You may have been criticized for your views and opinions, but haven't we all? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Getting back to PSA. Honest mistakes are made by human beings. I don't know of one honest authenticator who hasn't made an honest mistake. The mistakes may have been clerical or an honest authentication mistake.

If anyone on Net54 wants to criticize PSA that is their right. But at the same time, the same people who criticize PSA, also flock to PSA to get their items graded or authenticated to receive a higher premium when it comes time to sell.

Why don't we ask Travis why he never bashes Todd Mueller?

Travis, is it because "you have no reason" to bash Todd Mueller? If that's your reason, then I accept that, Travis. I have "no reason" to bash PSA. When "LoveTheMarlins" was exposing some of the forgeries on the now "Dead As Julius Caesar" old ANL site, no one heard a peep from Travis criticizing Todd Mueller. If those same items had been authenticated by PSA, Travis would have been all over it. As a matter of fact, Travis went out his way to defend Todd and the Willie Mays TTM wife-signed autograph that Todd had listed on his auction site as an "authentic Willie Mays signed card." And not a peep from Travis about the two (2) Phil Dorsey signed Roberto Clemente photos that Todd Mueller had listed as "authentic signed Roberto Clemente photograph" or that Walter Johnson signed garbage.

Travis, if you have "no reason" to bash Todd Mueller, then I accept that. But don't criticize me for not bashing PSA because I have "no reason" to also. I have had the same agenda for over eight years. You have your agenda and I have mine.


David once (or still does) owned a "1927 NY Yankees" signed baseball that was certed by JSA. He proudly posted photos of his JSA certed baseball and his own self-proclamation as a "Yankees vintage autograph expert." In addition, David announced his own "Quick Opinion" service on Net54 because of his self-proclaimed expertise on Yankees vintage autographs.

Then David discovered his JSA certed "1927 Yankees" signed baseball was a JF special. I knew it was a JF special when David sent me full-blown photos of this baseball. I am sure that David asked Jodi to confirm that his ball was not authentic. But then David starts ranting against JSA for his ball being bad, but as a self-proclaimed "Yankees vintage autograph expert," how is it that you (David) never discovered it was bad? I was well aware of JF team-signed baseballs, why weren't you? Instead of looking in the mirror, you blame JSA and start ranting against them.

Then David went out and purchased an authentic "1927 Yankees" team-signed baseball. He also informed us that he needed to sell some other items in order to finance his "new" baseball. And guess what. The items he listed on Ebay were either PSA or JSA authenticated. But wait, David, what about your rants against PSA and JSA? Why would you insert PSA/JSA in your title descriptions to promote the fact that they are PSA/JSA authenticated to sell your autographed baseballs, when from the other side of your mouth you're ripping both PSA and JSA?

Richard Simon and I are very good friends; we have opposing views when it comes to PSA. We always agreed to disagree. But we would never disparage each other to get our points across. I would hope that all of us can have that same respectful co-existence here.

The point I am making is that we can all co-exist on a peaceful level here on Net54 without the disparaging remarks, double-standards and hypocrisy.

Chris, does this sound like a rant against JSA? (From thread http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=146088 (1927 Yankees team ball forgery), which I started. Find one post of mine in which I "rant" against JSA regarding this baseball--or one in which I don't take full responsibility for being fooled.

Once again, from the same thread. Sound like "a rant against JSA"?

firstly, quit lying about the willie mays signed card, you know it's not true. He is a dealer and not a third party authenticator and doesn't authenticate other peoples autographs for money.

secondly, i never mentioned you at all, you flatter yourself.

thirdly, get the company line right, it's only one mistake out of 1000 (.1%), or as John R. says, 1 out of 10,000 (.01%)

5% error rate stinks. and they are the worlds experts? Mueller challenged any authenticator to a contest, winner take all, he got no takers from the worlds experts. I could clean their clock on boxing, why are they the world's boxing experts again?

fourthly, many, many of their errors are not clerical or honest mistakes, they are the product of authenticating too fast, sending the wrong person to authenticate the wrong autograph, conflicts of interest, and just general apathy towards being meticulous and getting it right.

fifthly, did you see the signed boxing glove that was just auctioned off at hugginsandscott.com for 2100 dollars. It had two Marciano signatures on it, and those are unlike any we have any seen, but signed off by joe orlando on a coa. Would you trust his opinion on this piece?

What makes them experts? Can anyone explain that? Mastro pushed for them and pumped up their credentials and that is how they got started, but tell me why they are good?


It is unbelievable, and you can find no criticism of this pathetic Marciano? Quit authenticating boxing, PSA!

Hi Travis,

Just wanted to clarify that I have no ownership or financial interest of any kind in Collectors Universe or any of its subsidiaries, such as PSA or PSA/DNA. Or their competitor, JSA. Further, none of these companies advertise with us or support us in any way. I sold all my stock in the company years ago.

BTW, PCGS, Professional Coin Grading Service, was the original name of the company. It changed its name to Collectors Universe in the mid-90s.

I have not been a manager, employee, consultant or boardmember of the company or any of its subsidiaries since the early 1990s; long before it became CU.

Please provide a detailed apology in each instance where you have published this misinformation about my companies and me, here or on any other site.

Thanks,

Steve Cyrkin

Travis "What makes Todd Mueller an autograph expert?" What, no criticism of this obvious Derek Jeter forgery that Todd Mueller stated "Is authentic?"

As a matter of fact, Todd made up a whopping story to try to convince others that this Jeter forgery was authentic.

Attachment 71226

Make that here AND on any other site, not "or".

this is what is stated about you, it is true.

cyrkin was one of the founder of pcgs, and collectors universe, he invested 10,000 dollars for 10 percent of pcgs, the coin grading company, and ultimate ended up with over a million shares of stock (about 5 percent) in collectors universe stock when it brought in pcgs.

i provided links to prove it. tell me what i said here that is not true.

In my experience, they have a better rate than this in baseball, but I have only researched a small number of players sporadically. I'm no expert, which brings me to my next point...


Intriguing. How would such a contest work, exactly? Who would "officiate"?

i dont know , but there will never be such a competition because they know they would lose. it would have to be an impartial third party who selected the autographs, both real and fake, and see who gets the most right, with no exemplars present, just off of memory. I would love just a joe louis contest, they are clueless when it comes to Louis, a total abomination.

JimStinson
 

I would love to participate in that contest. Where is it going to be held? I've done over 150 private signings with boxers alone so I know a little about that. Italy-Argentina-Thailand-UK....lots of miles under my belt ...I'd love to give it a shot. Is there a "handicap"?

you have to drink for a couple hours to give me a sporting chance :)

JimStinson
 

I'll do that ...as long as its a "light" beverage like JAGER or MAKERS MARK

JimStinson
 

When I used to drink in Havana , I drank Hemingway's drink which he invented and called a "Papa Doble" , which is a double daquari , easy on the sugar.
Well I was drinking at a place called "the Plaza of the Church" in English and I ordered my Papa Doble. and the waiter brought me TWO POTATOES ! which in correct spanish "papas Doble" means 2 potatoes...:)
By the way Ernest's record which still stands at "The Floridita" where they invented the Daquiri is 17 "Papa Doble's"

JimStinson
 

So to be fair I'll make that my "handicap":)

I was going to ask what's a heavy beverage, anti-freeze?

then i saw the papa-doble post!!!

I recognize there are several good boxing autograph guys that I would have my work cut out for and I am not claiming to be the very best but for sure none of them work for psa or jsa. they still dont have a boxing consultant listed, and the one ali guy on jsa stated publicly, but anonymously that he trusts the long time boxing dealers over the big companies "all day and twice on sunday" and that the big companies make egregious mistakes.

once jsa saw that they dropped his name from their consultant list.

when spence calls this a real luis firpo autograph like he did for the hake auction, we are all in trouble.

compare this ridiculous firpo to a real one i got directly from a collector in Argentina.