A word of caution
 

I have noticed a recent move for sellers on the BST to want Paypal payment only as a "gift option." I understand the reason behind this, but want to offer a word of caution to all buyers who do this.

If I understand the Paypal info correctly, you're making a trade-off by using this option. Yes, the recipient will not have to pay the paypal fee (3%, or whatever it is) but the buyer will have zero protection if the deal goes bad.

If you know the seller and have done deals before, you'll probably be fine. If you don't, you're taking a chance.

Just a caution when using "gift option."


(Note - This post was a general thought and NOT directed to any specific sellers!)

Thank you Jim for the info.

I have been wondering what the catch was with the "gift" option. I have seen it mentioned quite a bit lately in others posts and didn't think Paypal was kind enough to give everyone a new option that would skirt their fee for free.

I personally still prefer not to use their service at all.

But...
 

I understand the reasoning for wanting "Gift" because the recipient doesn't pay any fee and I too was a little concerned with how that would be handled in a dispute. However, if you select the funds to come from a CC vs. a bank tranfer you pay a small fee but (I think) the CC would back you up regardless because it was charged directly to the card. Any thoughts?

I demand an apology, and I've never even requested a buyer use the gift option.

We'd probably need a lawyer AND an accountant to figure that out.

The thread starter is absolutely correct! However, sending paypal "gift" is NO DIFFERENT than sending a USPS money order, or a personal check, or a certified bank check, or cash. There is little to zero recourse with any of those options either. It all comes down to trust as the OP has stated...but thats with almost any aspect of any deal not specific to "paypal gift". Just my 2 cents.

Throwing the flag on that one! You have to start by demanding that a moderator lock the thread. Otherwise your demand doesn't count.

Thanks for the info Jim.

I see your "request to lock" this thread and raise you a "please ban the OP (for 30 days)."



Kidding...

Great information.

From my understanding, even if you tied the "gift" to a CC, you still have no protection. The reason being that there was nothing "sold". You "gifted" that money to the receipient and therefore have nothing to dispute (as far as not receiving something in return). It is a risky way to buy items, but again, its no different than sending a USPS money order, or a check. Trust is the KEY issue here.

I believe USPS money orders offer some protection, depending upon how bad the deal goes. They may be a nightmare to navigate, but Federal Postal Fraud Laws are kind of important.

But you're right. If a seller wants to rip people off, they always can find a way.

No. You just demand that the buyer send a check. :cool:

Yes, Federal postal fraud IS a serious issue. But if I sell you an item, and you send me a USPS money order for $500. And I send you nothing in return, it would be nearly impossible to prove that you got nothing. I could very easily say I sent out your item in a plain white envelope, I have no idea what happened! At least with regular paypal, they will immediately side with the buyer and place all the burden of proof on the seller. This opens a whole new can of worms for scam artist buyers though!

Please take your place in the apology line.

Yeah, if you gift someone through Paypal, the option to dispute it is not even available. And if you fund it with a credit card and try to chargeback, you'd be trying to take money back from Paypal, who will have every recourse necessary to ensure you DON'T succeed. I only gift on BST here, side deals with people I've done deals with in the past, and eBay "best offers" (to provide incentive for sellers to accept my bid).

Disagree.
 

The CC shouldn't care who/what/where other than the fact you were defrauded. Not only any supporting documents that the money was for a purchase (i.e. emails) but even in the PP message itself. (if it says "Happy Birthday!!" you are screwed) If you message "For 1914 CJ Cobb PSA 2. Please ship to:" PP would have to see the writing on the wall. Feedback?

That's a good questions for the lawyers on the board....Jeff?

Can you legally ungift a gift?

If thats the case, both the CC and paypal are going to ask why you didnt use standard paypal for the purchase. Paypal "gift" was not set up so that users could avoid fees, it was set up so people could send "gifts" to eachother at no expense. Its probably a poor idea on paypal's part, as I dont see how they benefit. I also suspect it will not last very long because of exactly what we are discussing here. People are very much abusing the new feature. The way I see it, the "gift" option actually helps the buyer more than the seller. You save that extra 3% by using "gift". If someone wants to use standard paypal with me, thats fine...just add 3% to the total. So you see, as a seller, I do not benefit at all, I get the exact same amount of money.

Well luckily some of the members of this board have henchmen, so if a deal goes sour. Well, you DON'T want a deal to go sour. :cool:

Another thing some people don't realize when using the "gift" option ... is that the Paypal receipt doesn't show the mailing address. You need to either put it in the comment box or send it separately.

warning-Seinfeld reference
 

No one likes a re-gifter. Who could forget Tim Whatley? And the label maker?

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-...episode098.jpg

Paypal charges me a 1% fee to send the "gift" when I use cash from my bank account. It is my understanding that everyone who sends a gift via Paypal must pay the 1% fee, even for cash. So the choice is between 3% off the recipient's total, or 1% added to the sender's total.

And I agree with other comments that it would likely be tough to go back later and say a "gift" was not really a gift if it didn't work out for you.

Cheers,
Blair

Sometimes Paypal doesn't charge a percentage at all to gift, but if you do it alot, the percentage pops up on ocassion and becomes higher each time, it seems. I just tried to money to a fellow board member, a larger dollar amount, and they tried to add about 2.8-2.9% to the total...

And you didn't say "mother may I" beforehand.

As far as Paypal gifting when it isn't just pay the damned 3% and be honest; life is simpler that way.

FWIW, I think Paypal provides a good service to those of us w/o merchant accounts to take credit cards and I have decided not to give a discount any longer for check or MO payments instead of Paypal payments because taking a check to the bank is not worth my time and trouble as compared to the Paypal fee.

If the PP gift is funded by a CC, the same PP fees will still be charged just as if it were for a regular payment.

I have sent and received hundreds of PP gifts as payment for cards on numerous card forums and have never had an issue.

But there is a limit on the dollar amount that you can send via Paypal gift with a CC without paying a fee. In the end, the transaction I just did had to be done with eCheck so that no one would have to pay any of the $200 in fees. That is a ridiculous amount to charrge for being a middleman. I love Paypal as an option, but there should be a cap on the fee charged.

I have been down both roads with and without the use of "Gift" as an option of payment. No matter what if you pay through paypal for any transaction off EBAY you have no protection if you use anything other than a CC. If someone here on the board is a trusted member who cares if they are asking to save 3% on their end. If you pay through anything other than your paypal balance they also charge fees for the gifting. So transfer the money into there first and then pay. I do believe this same issue has been discussed many times before.

This is just not true...I paypal gifted $200 to Chicago206 yesterday for his Cycle 460 without incurring any fees. And my Paypal balance I keep at ZERO as often as I can. Then when I went to gift a much larger amount today from my CC they tried to charge $194 in fees. So there must be some rules in place that determine whether or not you pay a fee, and how much.

EDIT: I think that maybe Instant Transfers from a bank account are the free Paypal gifts, and once it is too high of a dollar amount, it kicks over to a credit card and charges a fee. Paypal's site is so vague about the specifics....probably to discourage fee-less end arounds. I only Paypal gift to those who I have done multiple deals with. Chicago206 bought from me several times on BST and eBay without issue, so I was not at all worried about gifting to him.

Has anyone receiving gifts had the money in their PayPal account frozen for six months? A Seller that I was dealing with started requesting gifts and had this happen to him. He could issue refunds, but could not withdrawl the cash. Then he created another separate PayPal account and tried to get the Buyers to accept a refund from the frozen account and pay him through the new account.

I avoid the gift option in all business transactions. I personally believe that if you are using a service, then you should pay the stated fees. If I wanted to avoid the fees, I'd simply stop using the PayPal option.

Christopher, wow, what a horror story! But one part of it I don't get...how could somebody have more than one Paypal account? I had to verify my address that's on my credit report, my SSN, and my bank account....it seems like it'd be impossible to get more than one account since the information would be the same.

I have two. My original used for all my transactions and then a second I set up when my mother passed away to sell some things that would allow my sisters access to the account.

Both accounts are in my name.

The fact of the matter is that if you are buying a card or anything else, you are paying for something and not sending a gift. To do so to avoid the paypal fee is in my view fraudulent. You may not like paypal but if you use it, you should adhere to the fee structure.

Wow, Tim. I've used paypal since their inception and never knew this. Now I can keep my two hobbies, baseball cards and money laundering, completely separate!

I had my account frozen recently when I had 200 eBay auctions al ending on the same day, but they lifted the restriction pretty quickly...six months wouldve been unbearable.

JP,

Just curious, but do you try to come up with a scheme for everything you do in life?

I just ask because if you're trying to beat Paypal out of their standard fee, and that fee happens to come to $194, then you must have been moving roughly $6500. In the old days (pre-electronic banking) moving that amount of money took time, over a week in some cases, depending upon geography, and proximity to Federal Reserve Banks. Time, being equal to money, made that transfer expensive, in economic terms. Opportunity Costs were expensive. Then came credit cards and the purchase was quicker, but the merchant paid the credit card company a fee. Then comes Paypal. The transfer is instant. The merchant has his money in minutes. You, theoretically, get you item shipped faster. But again there is a fee that someone is supposed to pay. Sellers like to think that's a fee that buyers should pay. Buyers think it's a cost of doing business.

You have gone to great lengths to try to convince the board you're an honest, straight shooting, guy. Now you have several posts that suggest you'll make a strong effort to defraud a service company that provides a valuable service to you. Is there a conflict there?

Jim VB,

If your post above was directed towards me, you can send me a PM. As I've told you before, I cannot see the content of your posts. Whatever it was, I bet it wasn't flattery.

you can often send paypal payment as an echeck. It will only cost the seller $5 no matter the amount, and in doing so you will avoid any fraudulent act while still protecting yourself. Karma and honesty has to be worth at least $5.

$3.98 at Wal-Mart I always like to shop for the best deals.. :)

Call it fraudulent or a bending of the rules, but when you can transfer $1 million at a bank for a $30-45 wire fee, and paypal charges that same amount for a $1000-1500 transfer, then there should be a cap. The 3% fee I also don't mind paying when they are offering buyer or seller protection. But when a fellow board member and I have an agreement on a card, and we're not using their parent company eBay's services, and neither of us are offered any customer protectionir services other than the transfer of money, then I don't mind circumventing the system. eBay and Paypal have hiked up their fees, and as eBay sellers flee en masse, they continue to hike up fees to make up for it. Not good business.

"....but when you can transfer $1 million at a bank for a $30-45 wire fee, and paypal charges that same amount for a $1000-1500 transfer, then there should be a cap."


Excellent point!

If you don't like Paypal's fees and rules, don't use them. Apparently, you do like something about them, or you would simply wire money instead. You must find Paypal more convenient, or else you'd do business elsewhere.

Instead, you claim they have high rates and that justifies you stealing from them. If you go to the grocery and their prices are too high, does that justify shoplifting? Using your logic, it does.

I am glad that you have finally admitted, that given a certain set of circumstances, you are willing to be dishonest. It takes a big man to admit he's a crook.

Once a crook, always a crook.

This is exactly how I see it. To request to be paid by the "gift" option to avail yourself of paypal's services for free is not right IMO.

Using "gifting" to avoid Paypal fees is fraud. It is, in fact, "theft of services", potentially a felony depending on the size of the fee avoided. We can always justify our actions by telling ourselves that their fees are exorbitant or that they are a big corporation and won't miss the fee or that everyone else does it. That may well be true but it is no justification for dishonesty. They say that everyone cheats a little on their taxes. It is still illegal and I would never do such a thing (Are you listening IRS? Never, ever, ever. Really.) Ultimately, you have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror. I've had clients who could put a bullet in the back of your head and not lose a minute of sleep, but I think most of the folks here are basically honest people who know the difference between right and wrong. Morally, is scamming Paypal any different from scamming a fellow collector?

If I stopped using Paypal, I'd also have to stop using eBay. I'm willing to circumvent a hole in their system to my advantage, and they in turn make plenty of money off of me. The alternative is that they make nothing at all... No guilt for me, as it appears is also the case with the large majority here, as almost every purchase I've made on BST has had the seller requesting the gift option. If it is the word "gift" that bothers you, you can also choose "payment owed" under the personal tab and do the same fee-less transaction. Buying and selling baseball cards is not a business for me at all...all ends up in cards, never cash.

Why is it that many people here feel they can throw stones? No one here has lied on an application, cheated on their taxes, stolen cable, downloaded movies or music, broken the speed limit, drank underage, or blown up a busfull of nuns? We're all human. We all have the right to draw whatever lines we are comfortable with. I have NEVER in my life been dishonest in any way, shape or form when dealing with an individual entity. To me that is far worse than taken advantage of a system a business has put in place...To each their own!

Also of note...I did an echeck instead of the gift option on the $6700. I avoided fees in that scenario as well, abiding by ALL of Paypal's rules. From now on I'll all ask sellers to eat the 3% and see how many are willing to do that...

No one here has lied on an application - Never

cheated on their taxes, - Never

stolen cable - Never

downloaded movies or music - Never

broken the speed limit - Never (OK, maybe a few times)

or blown up a busfull of nuns - Never (But 12 years of Catholic Schools. The thought has crossed my mind.)

drank underage - Guilty (But not in close to 40 years.)

lol!

Does a station wagon full of nuns count?

Rear ended an mini-van full of midgets once does that count for like half credit or something?

In retrospect, maybe not even worth continuing this argument....though I'm sure of my list I've probably done less of then than most anyone here. (haven't had as much fun as most) I'll officially ungracefully exit stage left. No point in trying to argue something that not anyone will ever completely agree upon...I'll try to use paypal echeck from now on so there will be no injured parties.

And, no, it must be AT LEAST a bus full of nuns...volkswagon buses don't count.

Were the midgets also nuns? Then, still no.

But if it was the old Subaru that used to explode on rear impact, then yes.