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D350-3 Standard Biscuit (E121-like) issue date
I have long known this set was likely a 1921 issue and not a 1920 issue like the first run of Holsum cards due to the player selection. However, it is also very obvious these Standard Biscuit cards were issued before the E121 Series of 80 as there are players in the set not in E121 (Dave Davenport, Art Fletcher, etc.) and players whose images they changed (Bill Donovan).
Reasons pointing to 1921: Rabbit Maranville was first w/ Pittsburgh in 1921 Walter Schang was first w/ the Yankees in 1921 Eppa Rixey was first w/ Cincinnati in 1921 etc. Anyways, it isn't always that you find a card that can totally pinpoint the time when cards were distributed, but I recently purchased this card off ebay w/ no back image, normally I wouldn't be too happy about writing or the obvious trim job but in this case I'll make an exception... http://starsofthediamond.com/standardbiscuitthomas.JPG The writing on back says... "Reced this July 5, 1921 [on] the train to Santa [Eva?]" Anyways, I thought it was pretty cool -Rhett |
very cool find
Very cool find Rhett.
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What month were the black sox booted from baseball? It's always seemed odd to me that Jackson and Cicotte are in the set if it's a 1921 issue?
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I have never seen a Standard Biscuit Jackson or Cicotte and don't suspect they will ever be found.
The pair are included in the first print run of the Holsum Bread cards (that were produced in 1920) along with a Claude Williams. Holsum then made a second printing in 1921 as well and the checklist of that set (from what I have found) closely resembles this Standard Biscuit set--no Black Sox in either of those sets. All of the guys were still actively participating in 1920 so it would make sense that they would have been included in a set made during the 1920 season -Rhett |
Hmm
I really don't know how I missed that card- I search for Standard Biscuit and 1921 on almost a daily basis, and occasionally for Thomas himself.
Rhett, note that the typeset is different on the C in Cleveland than it is for the E-121 card of Pinch: http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverh...0-80Thomas.jpg then note how the C in Cleveland is the same for his Henry A. Johnson card: http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverh...hjthomas_1.jpg Does this tell us that the Henry Johnson type w-575's came out with Standard Biscuit and before E-121? |
Todd, I was in the right place at the right time, someone had listed it with a BIN of 59.99 right before I checked ebay. It was a bit of a gamble as it did say Standard Biscuit in the title but it didn't actually picture the back of the card!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWNX:IT Also, the Henry Johnson's are 100% a 1921 issue BUT were issued almost simultaneously with the E121 Series of 80's, so just slightly after the Standard Biscuit, Herpolsheimer, Holsum(type 2's), and from what I can tell the Shotwell's. I suspect if you look at enough E121 Series of 80 card's of Pinch Thomas you would probably find ons with the funky "C"'s. |
ah
so there would have been a typeset change after HJ and before E121, right?
Also, is there any chance the Holsum Type 1s are even earlier than 1920? My Pinch Thomas Holsum has him playing for the Red Sox, who he left in the Winter of 1917. |
The printings of HJ and E121 probably overlapped as opposed to one being before the other. There aren't any "exclusive" players to HJ not forund in E121 or any team changes, etc. that one would expect to see. The sets are very similar in their make-up. And as I said before I wouldn't rule out a Thomas being found with the same "C" variation while having an E121 back.
About the Holsum cards, it is pretty concrete that the Type 1's are a 1920 issue and the Type 2's a 1921 issue based on my research. Type 1: -Amos Strunk is pictured with the Chicago White Sox, a team he didn't join until mid-1920 -Bob Roth has been found with Washington, a team he didn't start with until 1920. pictured here is the Type 1 (arms at side) & Type 2 (batting) Strunk cards... http://www.starsofthediamond.com/holsumstrunk.JPG Type 2: -Eppa rixey is found w/ Cincinnati, a team he began with in 1921 -Walter Schang is found w/ the Yankees, again a team he started with in 1921. In a lot of these sets there are what I call "anomalies" in that there are players that are shown with teams they hadn't played for for quite some time, the true way to tell the date of a set is to find players that were making their FIRST appearance w/ a team in the year of issue (not the last appearance because that could have just been from outdated info or photos)... Known anomalies: Holsum Type 2 (a 1921 issue): Chester Thomas w/ Boston (last played with them in 1917) Ray Morgan (last played w/ Washington in 1918) Harry Covaleskie (last played w/ Detroit in 1918) Ping Bodie (never actually played w/ Washington-??) http://www.starsofthediamond.com/holsummorgan.JPG Standard Biscuit (a 1921 issue): Dave Davenport and J. Carlisle Smith both were done playing w/ the teams they are pictured on in 1919. http://www.starsofthediamond.com/sta...scuitsmith.JPG |
Just for clarity, when I say Holsum Type 1, I am referring to the back with the "H." in "H. Weil Baking Company" being found all the way to the left. Type 2's have the "H." indented just slightly, see picture below...
http://www.starsofthediamond.com/holsumback.JPG The two in the top row are "Type 1's" and the others are "Type 2's" -Rhett |
OK
Quote:
Have you established that any player appears in both Holsum Type I and 2 with the same pose? Also, owning but one of each, I note from mine that the Holsum back is oriented differently from type I to type 2, the latter reading top to bottom. Is this always true? That Strunk analysis seems odd to me. The type 2 card is just a recycled pose from 1917's E135 and friends sets, as are so many of the Holsums and e121 related cards. Why take the time to print an action shot in type 1 and then later replace it with an old, rehashed photo in type 2, as opposed to the other way around? Just musing. NEVER MIND- I SEE I HAD IT BACKWARDS ON STRUNK |
2 Attachment(s)
Sorry, I misread the post. I was thinking this was Holsum.
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2 Attachment(s)
PSA seems to agree:
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Simple question. I presume the 120 series of Standard Biscuit is also from 1921?
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Rhett, thanks for the clarification. I don't know what I was thinking. When you first posted about "Standard Biscuit," I immediately thought of "Holsum" (which has Jackson and Cicotte). I'm glad to hear that 1920 is now the accepted date for Holsum. That makes sense to me.
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Quote:
D350-1a (checklist corresponds to M101-5) D350-1b (checklist corresponds to M101-4) D350-2 D350-3a (series of 80) D350-3b (series of 120) |
Probably the train to Santa Ana, California.
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I screwed up.
I should have said the series of 200. I have a Del Pratt from the 200 series. My apologies. I did not have the card near at hand when I first posted. |
Brian - that makes more sense; just the 4 known sets then:
D350-1a (checklist corresponds to M101-5) D350-1b (checklist corresponds to M101-4) D350-2 (checklist corresponds to E135) D350-3 |
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