Uncut Bowman Sheets?
 

Wondering if anyone has seen any full uncut sheets of the large Bowman BB cards? The series breakdowns seem to run in multiples of 16, were the sheets really only 16 cards? I know some of the earlier cards were printed on small sheets but can;t recall seeing any big boys in full uncut form.

Back in the 1980's I had a sheet of 1953 Bowman Color. I believe it was the thirty-two card run from 65-96. When Ted Z. sees this thread he will correct me if I am wrong. He helped me get it and has a better memory than me.

Uncut Bowman sheets
 

Barry

You recall correctly, you acquired that 1953 Bowman sheet at the Philly (Ocean City) Show in the late 1980's.

I have many small Bowman (1948-1950) uncut sheets. Here is the only large Bowman sheet I have. It is a complete 1st series sheet of
the 1952 Bowman LARGE issue FB cards. I acquired it in 1981.....it is very rare, as I have not seen any other such sheets in the hobby.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/b52football.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



TED Z

Thanks Ted.:)

Thanks for posting Ted-I find it interesting that the Bowman sheets were so small compared to Topps.

A few bits and pieces....
 

.

Dave H......
 

Howard Moll (of the George Moll Adv. Agency) told me that all 1948-1952 Bowman cards were printed
using a 38-inch printing press track and were 36 card sheets, configured 9 across x 4 rows.

All 1953-1955 Bowman cards were printed using a 43-inch printing press track and were 32 card sheets,
configured 8 across x 4 rows.


While the 1952-1956 Topps cards were printed using a 53-inch printing press track and were 100-card
sheets configured 10 across x 10 rows.


TED Z

Thanks Ted that is extremely useful information. I do note that the 55-56 Topps sheets were 110 cards but since they are horizontally printed the extra column is really a row and added to the length and not the width of the sheets. It all works out though whether they were 100 or 110 cards I think, per below.

Based upon the above, can we conclude Topps printed 200 or 220 card master sheets like they did later on with two 132 half sheets making up a full 264 Master? The math seems to indicate a double wide Topps sheet was possible if you take the shorter edges and add them up (2.625" x 10 cards = 26.25" + 26.25" plus .50" for the extra space on the left and right gutters equals a 53" double, or master, sheet).

The Bowmans must have had bigger gutters or they (more likely) had the ability to decrease the width of print pass as you could have printed the doubled master as 2.50" x 8 cards = 20" + 20" = 40" plus gutters. Interestingly, you could fit another row in this configuration at a full 43" and and be left with a spare .50".

Here is a 110 card sheet from '56 to illustrate. Note the rightmost column (on a vertically oriented sheet it would be a row) is a DP of the one next to it. A recent major auction also had a 110 card '55 sheet but I can't put my fingers on the scan right now. '53 and '54 half sheets are confirmed at 100 cards apeice and '52 likely is as well, even though I have only seen 5 x 5 card quadrants from that year. Topps must have gone to a new press in '57 as two double wides and gutters are about 55.5" across using 11 card columns at 2.5" per column of cards with 132 card half sheets. Maybe this is when they started using Zabel Brothers of Philadelphia to print cards? Or they could have printed single wides consisting of 12 cards at 3.5" across on the long edge, resulting in 42" of printed area plus gutters, which would have been possible on the Bowman presses.

More research (and math) seems to be next!

Puzzled
 

I'm wondering why the 1952 Bowman sheet is a 32-card run, and not 36 as had always been presumed. In fact, isn't the supposed scarcity of card numbers divisible by nine in this set based on a 36-card sheet?

I think there is a different reason for that. There might be a thread on this if you search (maybe on the pre-war board) or Ted wrote an article somewhere but I seem to recall the big boys were "tight" on the sheet and this affected certain cards. They were trying to wedge 32 large cards on 36 card sheets designed for small cards I believe.

I have to say the artwork on those '52 Bowman football cards is stupendous!

Math Challenged
 

Hmm, any way I try to look at it, it seems that the much-publicized scarcity would depend on the actual printing of a 36-card sheet. That is, cards numbered 1, 9, 10, 18, 19, 27, etc. - those on the edges of the sheet, were discarded due to damage from the smaller press guides. On the other hand, with a 32-card sheet, as shown above, cards numbered 1, 8, 9, 16, 17, 24, etc. would be predicted as scarce....no? Or am I missing something?

1952 Bowman FB (large issue) sheet
 

My sheet is missing the leftmost column of cards (#1, 10, 19 and 28). Bowman took their Small set and enlarged the size of
their cards in order to compete with the very popular larger 1952 Topps BB cards.
Bowman had not yet increased the printing press track to 43 inches (used in the printing of all their cards from 1953 to 1955).

In order to print all 144 cards in their FB set, they had to cut down the size of the cardboard to fit the press's track. Thereby,
cards on the rightmost column and the leftmost column of an original 36-card sheet were truncated.

That resulted in, all cards divisible by 9 are short-printed. And, all cards divisible by 9 (+ 1) are short-printed.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/b52football.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


TED Z

Puzle solved
 

Thanks Ted:
I think I read your article in BBC mag back in the '80's, but the 32-card sheet kind of stumped me until you explained.

1955 Bowman baseball
 

To the best of my knowledge, there is only one 1955 Bowman baseball uncut sheet known -- it was pictured in a ~1985 or so Baseball Cards magazine. That uncut sheet was significantly learger than anything Ted has referenced.

Marc

Fascinating Stuff!
 

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but this is good stuff. So, Ted, if I understand correctly, there were actually 2 versions of each sheet, one with the leftmost column omitted, and one with the rightmost column omitted? So then the total number of card #4's printed would equal the number of card #1's printed plus the number of card #9's printed? (I tried writing that a number of ways, and they all came out confusing. I hope you understand what I'm getting at.)

1952 Bowman LARGE football cards
 

nearmint

I'm not quite sure I get what you are getting at.

Anyhow, the best way to understand this set of 144 cards is to realize that there are three levels of scarcity in collecting these cards.

1st....all 16 cards whose #'s are divisible by 9 are very, very tough to find.

2nd....cards #1, 10, 19, 28, 37, 46, 55, 64, 73, 82, 91, 100, 109, 118, 127, and 136 are tough to find (but, not as tough as the divisible by 9 group).

3rd....all the other 112 cards are relatively easy to find.


TED Z

Thanks, Ted, that much I understand. What I'm trying to determine is if there is a relationship between the numbers of cards printed in the three groups. From your earlier explanation, it sounded like sometimes the first sheet included the multiple-of-9 cards, and sometimes it included the multiple-of-nine-plus-1 cards instead. So there were two versions of the first sheet. Is that correct?

If that's correct, then I think if you add the number of multiple-of-9 cards printed to the number of multiple-of-9-plus-1 cards printed, that equals the number of multiple-of-9-plus-2 cards printed. (Which equals the number of multiple-of-9-plus-3 cards, etc.)

(If anyone understands me and can state it more clearly, please do!)

The reason I'm asking is that I've created a bunch of "virtual" uncut sheets for other sets (here's an example), and I'd like to create them for the 1952 Bowman Large set, too. I'd also like to explain exactly how short-printed the short prints are, in relationship to the others.

Thanks again.

nearmint
 

1st....your "virtual uncut sheets" of the 1948 Bowman FB set is exact. In the early 1980's, I had the three uncut sheets
and I wrote this SCD article regarding this set.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1948bowmanfbart1984.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1948bowmanfb1984p2.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


2nd....Back then, SCD also featured an article I wrote on the 1952 Bowman LARGE FB set. When I find it, I'll post it here.
In the early 1980's I did a REAL survey of these LARGE cards (sampling approx. 1200 cards). If I recall correctly, the ratio
of the .... DIVISIBLE by 9 .... cards to the .... DIVISIBLE by 9 + 1 .... is 1 / 5.

Furthermore, the ratio of .... DIVISIBLE by 9 + 1 .... to all the other 112 cards in this set is 1 / 2.5

What this survey tells us is that Bowman RANDOMLY shifted their 36-card sheets in order to print all the cards. However,
they did NOT do it in an orderly fashion in order to equalize the number of cards printed. The printing of these cards was
done by shift workers, and there was no attempt to coordinate the process.

One final note..my understanding of Bowman's printing process (done by Zabel Brothers, Philadelphia) was that the width
of the cardboard accomodated two adjacent 36-card sheets. If this is confusing, I will provide a diagram in a forthcoming
post here.

I hope I have answered your questions ?

But, if it not, then I'll try again.

Regards,

TED Z

Thanks, Ted, that 1948 Bowman article is great. I didn't know that the cards were released in series, and I didn't notice that only a few teams were represented per sheet. When I get a chance, I'll edit my web page and add a link to your article.

I'm looking forward to reading your 1952 Bowman Large article. I think I understand the truncating, I'm just not sure at what point the truncating took place. Was there a partial column printed on each sheet that got trimmed off, or was that column not printed in the first place? I don't know anything about printing, so I can't envision what the printers did to "shift" the sheet one way or the other.

That's all--at least 'til I read your article!

That makes a lot of sense. They printed Topps cards in similar fashion, i.e. two half sheets at once on a large master sheet. I have to suspect Zabel became Topps' printer after the Bowman acquisition but the transition took a few years I think.

ted, have you ever found much on Zabel Brothers? I spoke to Irv Lerner about them briefly at the National but there is very little on the web about the company.

Dave H......re..Zabel Brothers, Lithographers
 

Here is what I know about Zabel Bros. of Philadelphia. This printing firm had been around since the late 19th Century. In 1981,
I had a great conversation with George and Howard Moll of the Moll Advertising Agency in Abington, PA. The artists at the Moll
Agency were contracted by the BOWMAN GUM Co., starting in 1938, to do all the sports and non-sports cards sets (Play Ball,
Bowman, War Gum, Wild West, etc.....and, their famous Horrors of War).

Howard told me that the 1948 and 1949 BB, FB, Basketball, Movie Stars, etc. were printed by a lesser known printer in the Philly
area. Then they switched printers to Zabel Bros. in the Fall of '49. BOWMAN's first gum card production with Zabel was their very
colorful and artistic Wild West cards. I collected these as a kid and I remember getting them in the Winter of '49 thru the Spring
of 1950. At that time, the 1950 BOWMAN BB cards were also available at our corner stores in Hillside, NJ. I recollect that us kids
were very excited to open up those Red-White-Blue packs and find these colorful looking BB cards. Many of which were the same
pictures from the 1949 set with artistic backgrounds. Zabel Bros. made a significant difference in the quality of the BOWMAN cards
from 1949 to 1955.

When TOPPS bought out BOWMAN in 1956, it is my understanding that the contract with Zabel Bros. continued with TOPPS.

Dave, I hope this story provides some insight to the question you asked.


TED Z

Thanks Ted-I do know the 1956 Topps Presidents set was printed in the same dimensions as the large Bowman cards (a hair different in size than the Topps Giant Size cards) and I have long suspected but have been unable to confirm that the standard sized cards that started with Elvis in 1956 were configured to fit the Bowman sheets. However, I have done some research that indicates Topps was still using Lord Baltimore Printing in Baltimore through the end of the 50's, so there may have been some sets printed in Balto and some in Philly for 4-5 years.

I am fairly certain Lord Baltimore printed all of the Giant Sized Topps cards from 1952 through 1954 and likley into 1955 or '56 (except for the Presidents set); I suspect the Red and Blue Backs plus the Team and AS cards in '51 were printed in Philly but probably not by Zabel. I wonder if they were done by the other Philly firm you refer to. Still trying to determine who did the Topps printing in 1949-50 as well.

Any idea what happened to Zabel Bros? They disappear in the mid 90's I think. Not sure if they were bought out or not.

Dave H
 

My good friend and long-time collector, Jack, may be able to provide some answers to your questions.

I will try to contact Jack some time today.


Regards,

TED Z

1952 Bowman Article
 

Volod
 

Sure, post it here. I've posted some of my old BOWMAN and LEAF articles in the past....there are no legal problems to be concerned about.

Best regards,

TED Z

1952 Bowman Football Large
 

Here she is: Hope this is viewable:

I had many uncut sheets
 

My grandfather William Zabel was the President of Zabel Brothers Co in Philadelphia. When I was 7 years old in 1950, he began to give me full uncut sheets of the Bowman baseball cards. I taped them to my bedroom walls in Ocean City, NJ. I had full sets of sheets of Bowman and Topps through about 1959. In addition, my grandfather would bring me error sheets (upside down reverse side), one color missing, etc. I kept all the sheets in a large cardboard box (like a large TV would come in today).

In the summer of my Freshman year at college, 1962, I worked at Zabel Bros. One job I had was to go through all the old zinc/copper printing plates in the huge basement storeroom and ready them to be sold as scrap metal. I found many of the plates used to print the 1949-1956 Bowman and Topps cards. I packaged them with other plates. They were probably melted down.

When I returned to the US from 2 years in Nepal as a Peace Corps volunteer in 1970, I discovered that my mother had thrown into the trash my entire collection of uncut sheets as well as my huge individual card collection.

I wasn't angry, just sad. And I now wonder what would have happened if I had kept the original plates and could reprint the cards. Certainly the market value of the existing ones would be a lot lower.

Great story Doug....and sad:(

Unbelieveable!!
 

That has to be one of the most painful "My mom thew out my baseball cards" stories I have ever heard. Do you have any photographs of your room with the sheets on the wall?