Originally Posted by BeanTown (Post 1906160)

Maybe just go back to qualifiers and add a couple.

The way as I remembered it back in the day:

OC - Off Centered
ST - Stain
PD - Print Defect
OF - Out of Focus
MK - Marks
QA - Questionable Authenticity

Maybe add these

BL - Bleached
SW - Soaked with Water
SC - Soaked with Chemical
TR - Trimmed
RES - Restored
CA - Color Added


If TPGs have a garuntee and bypass over their QA (Questionable Authenticity) then wouldn't all the wrong assed grades be subject to something favorable for the customer?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1906130)

Do you remember the one-hit wonder song by the group Ides of March?

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1906244)

No, I don't. I guess I could look it up.

Would it be the 1970 hit "Vehicle?" Never heard of it.

Originally Posted by BeanTown (Post 1906160)

Maybe just go back to qualifiers and add a couple.

The way as I remembered it back in the day:

OC - Off Centered
ST - Stain
PD - Print Defect
OF - Out of Focus
MK - Marks
QA - Questionable Authenticity

Maybe add these

BL - Bleached
SW - Soaked with Water
SC - Soaked with Chemical
TR - Trimmed
RES - Restored
CA - Color Added


If TPGs have a garuntee and bypass over their QA (Questionable Authenticity) then wouldn't all the wrong assessed grades be subject to something favorable for the customer?

Originally Posted by drcy (Post 1906058)

Another question to ponder is, if PSA can identify alterations (someday), how will they treat resubmitted cards? If they are able to identify all the alterations they previously missed, how will the deal with all the misgraded cards out there? Perhaps they hope they are unable to better identify alterations in the future.

Originally Posted by drcy (Post 1906123)

Some people are saying "PSA will do this," "Registry will do that."

However, if the FBI and criminal prosecutions involving false grading are involved, the question will be how much say will PSA and Registry people in it? PSA may hope "Let's hope it all just blows over and people accept altered cards," and Registry people may say the same. However, if the FBI says these altered cards and the selling thereof (as non-alerted) is a criminal offense, and all these misgraded cards in the Registry are products of criminal or whatever behavior, PSA and Registry won't be able to just ignore it-- certainly not at resale time and grading time.

I think their hands will be forced.

At the least, the altered cards will have to be overtly labelled as altered (How the hobby prices those then is another matter), and PSA will have to address the altered cards. PSA will not be allowed to "whistle by the graveyard" or "grandfather clause" all their past mistakes . . . As I said in previous post, what does PSA now do when altered cards are resubmitted for grading? The now know many are altered, and the now know the FBI is involved. And what does the hobby as a whole now do, with so many people who resubmit cards hoping for a better grade? This all changes things a lot, and not in a way that PSA will be fond of.

I firmly believe that PSA will have to address in serious fashion all the altered cards that they misgraded-- and there a ton of them, involving lots of $$ and a boatload of card owners, including wealthy Registry folk, who aren't going to be happy when their cards are addressed in serious fashion. Tell me how this isn't a problem, or at least a conundrumm (including in a legal sense), for PSA and Registry set owners?

Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1906019)

Putting aside the question of PSA adopting a method to establish that many of their previously slabbed cards have now been objectively determined to have been altered (thus bringing to the fore liability under their grading warranty), there is something called patent protection.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1906251)

Yeah. The lead singer sounds exactly like the great David Clayton-Thomas of Blood Sweat and Tears to me, but it's not he.

Originally Posted by HRBAKER (Post 1906270)

Great horn section too.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1906273)

On the other hand, the lyrics were awful.

Well, if you want to be a movie star
I can take you to Hollywood
But if you want to stay just like you are
You know I think you really should

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1906274)

The first Blood, Sweat, and Tears, with Al Kooper, was far superior.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1906276)

Perhaps from a purist's point of view, but the first album with Clayton-Thomas was great in its own right, with the Erik Satie echoes throughout, etc. The version of Billie Holiday's God Bless the Child was brilliant.

Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1906285)

This thread has become a bit hijacked. :)

Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1906291)

I tired to get it back on track...off the rails again with the lyrics

People are done....

Nothing will change PSA will continue to be at the top... people will continue to burn their money on altered cards in their holders it’s all about the grade...

New grading company won’t happen

Sell sell sell

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers (Post 1906304)

"I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan" Vehicle

Originally Posted by markf31 (Post 1906299)

"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1906300)

Not sure I agree that a new grading service won't happen. A new company trying to do the same exact thing as PSA will fail, because PSA controls too great of a market share.

Originally Posted by drcy (Post 1906005)

I agree and was thinking along this line. If the current grading companies do nothing (and that's basically what PSA wants to do), and a new company or used technology and methodology is used to identify unaltered cards, the will change things drastically. Especially with high end cards, the old grades may become obsolete or considered lesser-- especially if and when the new technology and methodology demonstrates that many of the registry cards are altered.

Futher, and as I've said before, it takes only a percentage of collectors, investors, PSA registry people to drop out to change their minds and/or drop out fot the bottom to fall out. And I believe that a percentage of people WILL change their tunes about PSA graded cards.

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1906315)

Whatever happened to all of the GAI graded cards? :D:D:D That's PSA's future as I stated more than 5 plus years ago. We will all have so much fun cracking the PSA slabs for the new slab company. So much FUN@!!! I don't know about you guys but I can't wait to crack all the slabs and re submit...kinda like they do now.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906312)

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906312)

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906313)

Yep. REA employing card doctors? Laughable. LOTG? Laughable. I doubt every other word attributed to this "insider".

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1906325)

I agree it's hyperbole but it may not be entirely inaccurate. I am sure there are and were AHs that sent cards to be altered.

Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1906321)

Unless and until there is a grading option that can detect expert alterations, I agree not much is likely to change. But, and this is perhaps where we differ, I believe such a grading option is inevitable. The reason -- if done properly it could make some people very rich. Financial incentive is very powerful, and here I believe it is viable.

I know for a fact some people are looking at it very seriously and significant sums are being raised as startup capital. And if the new model works and alterations can be detected, how can the floodgates not be opened? The money required to effectively market the new company and expose the IMO staggering percentage of vintage high grade alterations will be insignificant compared to the money required for the startup.

Imagine the following. Once this happens this new company is set up at the National with a red portrait T206 Cobb in its "8" holder, and next to it is a PSA "8" of the same card. And next to both of these cards is last month's Forbes's magazine article heralding this new TPG and reciting statistics that out of a random selection of 454 T206 PSA "8s", 78% have been exposed by this new grading method as altered in one fashion or another and placed in "A" slabs. Which "8" T206 red portrait Cobb card do you think would sell for more at that juncture, the one in the PSA holder or the one in the new TPG holder?

The whales can yell, kick, scream all they want, but that will not silence the market forces at play here.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906329)

I have no doubt. Mastro and Allen were definitely doctoring cards. I also have no doubt that REA and LOTG are not and I think of both of them as major auction houses in our hobby.

Originally Posted by mferronibc (Post 1906259)

I think PSA is well aware of what a slippery slope this is. Even if they are coming up with more advanced technology to identify alterations in response to what is going on, I think there will be a lot of hesitation to roll it out. They'll basically have thousands of people who paid $$$ for a high graded card 5 years ago resubmitting and now being told the same card is altered and only worth $ and collectors will demand the $$ difference from PSA as it was their oversight in the first place when it was originally graded. Class action anyone??

I think it is going to take a new company with better technology to take on PSA and dethrone them as king (as least initially until this new company becomes just as corrupt over time and we're back where we started).

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906312)

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906312)

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1906344)

But what about the new buyer of these high dollar high grade cards? Why wouldn't they want to send them to a second company for a second opinion as to if the card is altered? If you were paying 5 or 6 figures for a card, wouldn't you want to know it was unaltered and would hold its value in the future?

Originally Posted by taul166 (Post 1906428)

As I recall and someone can correct me if I am wrong or if events have changed anything, but didn't PSA commit to doing a thorough investigation and report back on its findings to all stakeholders? Did PSA commit to a timeline for doing this and have they issued any interim statements or findings yet?

Originally Posted by markf31 (Post 1906299)

"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers (Post 1906304)

"I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan" Vehicle

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1906360)

I certainly would...

And as for Dan's point about the fake T206 Signed cards being behind us....

Sure people aren't talking about it as much anymore. But that's largely because of the new bigger revelations of PWCC/PSA taking hold. And even though the fake signed T206s are no longer at the top of the message boards, people DO remember it. And I believe these collectors are far more hesitant to delve into that arena now. I have seen very few examples (if any) since that news broke, and think it will be far more difficult now to get these examples past the autograph experts.

Hopefully the card altering scandal will carry far more specific long-term ramifications for the TPAs, as well as jail time for those who have continually defrauded us.

Originally Posted by blametony (Post 1906995)

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

Originally Posted by blametony (Post 1906995)

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906999)

The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.

Originally Posted by blametony (Post 1906995)

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

Originally Posted by Promethius88 (Post 1906479)

What did SGC do about the fakes besides close down their autograph division? I don't recall seeing numbers or dollar amounts of fake autos in SGC holders or refunds being given on any of those. A lot of talk about PSA, which there should be, but not much on SGC or BGS who both are in deep in both of these scandals.