One T206, Two Names
 

I wanted to post a scan of this T206 since I know there are a few other board members who are interested in T206s with multiple names. I was one of the underbidders on this Ebay auction that ended tonight. Anyway, here is a scan of the front and back. Bender is the name on the top.


Jantz

I watched that auction - ending price was pretty strong imo.

I was the winner
 

Jantz, I was the winner of the card. I had to look at that card twelve times to make sure I wasn't seeing things. A nice companion to my Chase-Zimmerman.

The only T206 I have w/two names is Wilson, Pittsburgh - P350/25. His name is on both top and bottom. Most t206s that I've seen have the same name top and bottom.

So what does this say about the cards printed on a sheet? Were there different players on each sheet for Piedmont 150 series but many rows of the same player per sheet for Piedmont 350 run?

Known universe of two names
 

Jantz has a lot of information on the "two different name" T206s. I don't know if anyone has deciphered a pattern or has a theory. I believe the Bradley-Bender brings the number of known cards that exhibit this to 19. I have a list (and scans) somewhere... just have to dig it up.

I had a few dozen of these that I got in a huge T206 error collection I bought. I sold a bunch on ebay and they never brought much. I think I still have a few left but I am fairly sure all have the same player's name top and bottom. I will try to dig them out and check the names.

Dan, you sent me a Carrigan a few years ago that had his name top and bottom, sit resides over my desk and again thank you.

Rawn

2 name
 

:D Adda boy Erick!! Jantz, u have the eye......proud of u guys....:)

Great stuff. Cant recall seeing two different names on any of this type of freak. A rarity of a rarity.


If anyone is keeping score., Add a Stovall and Cicotte to the list.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...sprintsx19.jpg

The list of two different names
 

I'm fairly certain about the existence of the following twenty. I was able to find scans of 17 of them via Google this evening. I bolded the ones I couldn't find. The Engle-Phillippe is the most dramatic of the group, with most of the card displaying Phillippe.

01. Abbaticchio(Brown)-Cicotte (Piedmont 350)
02. Atz-Hoffman (Piedmont 350)
03. Bradley-Bender (Piedmont 150)
04. Chase(BluePortrait)-Zimmerman (Piedmont 350)
05. Delehanty(Washington)-Waddell
06. Elberfeld(NewYork)-Parent (Piedmont 350)
07. Engle-Phillippe (Piedmont 350)
08. Hoblitzell-Stephens (Piedmont 350)
09. Jennings(Portrait)-Jordan (Piedmont 350)
10. Killian(Pitching)-Chance (Piedmont 150)
11. Killian(Portrait)-Dubuc (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30)
12. Lindaman-Bresnahan (Piedmont 150)
13. Lundgren(Cubs)-Ball
14. Lundgren(Cubs)-Doolin
15. McElveen-Dygert (Piedmont 350)
16. McGlynn-Jones (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30)
17. Pickering-Myers (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory ?)
18. Snodgrass(Batting)-Maddox (Piedmont 350)
19. Spade-Cicotte (Piedmont 150)
20. Turner-Lobert

I also ran across reports of two others, but I don't recall ever seeing a scan of them:
Rossman-McBride
McGraw-Keeler

I just saw one tonight rummaging through some older gentleman's stuff. I didn't get it (yet) because we need to sort through the cards. It was a weird collection...many original cards, 2 graded...and several I believe were fake!:confused:

When examples come up with two different names on one card it's important to my research to know which back brand, series and factory number is on the card. Anytime this information can be included with a post it would be greatly appreciated.

I own a copy of the Snodgrass (batting) with Maddox's name on top. It's a Piedmont 350, Fact. no. 25.

With backs (as I have them)
 

Jantz may have more info, but this is what I know from other threads:

01. Abbaticchio(Brown)-Cicotte (Piedmont 350)
02. Atz-Hoffman (Piedmont 350)
03. Bradley-Bender (Piedmont 150)
04. Chase(BluePortrait)-Zimmerman (Piedmont 350)
05. Delehanty(Washington)-Waddell
06. Elberfeld(NewYork)-Parent (Piedmont 350)
07. Engle-Phillippe (Piedmont 350)
08. Hoblitzell-Stephens (Piedmont 350)
09. Jennings(Portrait)-Jordan (Piedmont 350)
10. Killian(Pitching)-Chance (Piedmont 150)
11. Killian(Portrait)-Dubuc (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30)
12. Lindaman-Bresnahan (Piedmont 150)
13. Lundgren(Cubs)-Ball
14. Lundgren(Cubs)-Doolin
15. McElveen-Dygert (Piedmont 350)
16. McGlynn-Jones (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30)
17. Pickering-Myers (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory ?)
18. Snodgrass(Batting)-Maddox (Piedmont 350)
19. Spade-Cicotte (Piedmont 150)
20. Turner-Lobert

Thanks Anthony and Erick that information is greatly appreciated.

Great thread Jantz, and great info Erick. So, it seems the majority are Piedmont & Sweet Caporal 150 & 350....anyone seen any of these in the 460 series?

Sincerely, Clayton

Here is all the information that I have been able to gather on two different name T206s so far.

01. Abbaticchio (brown)-Cicotte PD350
02. Atz - Hoffman (Providence) PD350
03. Bradley (port.) - Bender PD150-25
04. Chase (blue port.) - Zimmerman PD350-25
05. Delehanty (Wash.) - Waddell back unknown
06. Elberfeld (NY port.) - Parent PD350
07. Engle - Phillippe PD350-25
08. Hoblitzell - Stephens PD350
09. Jennings (port.) - T. Jordan (Brooklyn) PD350-25
10. Killian (pitching) - Chance PD150
11. Killian (port.) - Dubuc SC350-30
12. Lindaman - Bresnahan PD150-25
13. Lundgren (Cubs) - Ball (NY) back unknown
14. Lundgren (Cubs) - Doolin PD150-25
15. McElveen - Dygert PD350
16. McGlynn - Jones (Detroit) SC350-30
17. Pickering - Myers (?) SC350
18. Snodgrass (batting) - Maddox PD350-25
19. Spade - Cicotte PD150-25
20. Turner - Lobert back unknown
21. McGraw (no cap port.) - Chesbro back unknown

Most of these cards are owned by board members and I have gotten my information and scans from them. The exceptions being #20 & 21 which came from T206museum. I've read the history of that website and it's owner, but I cannot rule out the possibility (at this time) that those two cards are legit.

Clayton - So far, none from the 460 series.

Erick - I was going to pass along the information about #21 to you after I won the Bradley/Bender ;) I'm glad the Bradley/Bender has a good home now.

Tim - Hopefully the board members who own some of these cards will add some more information to the list.


Jantz

I own#6 #10 and #17.......and yes on #17!! ur right on the back Jantz...btw , email me Jantz, u rock!!:D

Jantz, Tim, Erick, and Clayton......plz keep up the great stats, were counting on you guys....


if anyone wants to part with one of these, lmk, or any t206 freaks;)

The Turner-Lobert was in the September 2007 Sotheby's auction. I'd say that makes it a legit.
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/...7#/35575027/36

Thanks Jantz- this is great info, and I appreciate you guys sharing your research with us.

21 known to exist- I'd say that makes these extremely rare. I'd guess that there could be a few more floating around out there "unknown"- just a guess.

I think they are awesome !!!

Johnny- how's it going my friend? :D Hope all is well on the East coast-

Sincerely, Clayton

I don't really collect cards but like I said earlier while rummaging through some gentleman's other stuff for sale I noticed a t-206 with a name on partial name on top and bottom. So let me see if I've got this right...as of now we know of 21 different cards within this set with two names on the front of the card? That's not saying there are only 21 known cards known TOTAL does it? That would be more rare than the Wagner!:eek:

Clayton
 

Clayton,

GREAT!!!thanx for asking, how bout you in sin city?????....just picked up an upside down om back southern leagurer($700)! that will look sweet in the collection of my upside down backs...how are you??call me this weekend;)


ur dude


v

The rare ones have two different names on them, double name of the same player are quite common.

The universe is infinite, but...
 

Based on Jantz' research and what I've been able to find over the last few months online, there are 21 scans that have been shared/collected of miscut T206 cards with a different name on top. There are certain to be more out there, but those are the ones that are now known.

Hopefully I'll be able to snag the one I saw Tues. I don't remember but I'm pretty sure the top and bottom name were pretty much impossible to decipher but I will post a scan if I can get it. Like I said I'm not real informed about cards just knew it was pretty neat when I saw it.

Here is a composite of all of the scans
 

http://gallery.me.com/kimsummers/100...13186380380001

*Edited... thanks Tim for the missing scan

Miscut T206
 

Guys,

I have gone through some recent additions and have this card too add to the checklist. This is a Livingstone/Maloney 2 name card. Scans are attached.

T206 two names
 

I had a Keeler - McGraw combo a few years ago. If I remember correctly, I offered it on this forum at a pretty low price, and there were no takers. So, I ebayed it, and it flopped. But I guarantee you, it does exist. Wish I had kept a scan.

Here is another one for the list. It is a Bill Graham with a Josh Clark on top with a SC 350 F30 back. I also have a Wallace that is MC with a blank top. I am pretty sure there is enough blank card on top if there was a card above it the name would show. I know it is not a big deal but if anyone is trying to put together a sheet layout the info might help.

Here is a Konetchy Piedmont 350 with same name on top and bottom.

bruce....
 

sweet card bruce....lmk if u ever want to part with it;)


peace

johnny

Just wanted to say thanks to Bruce & other members for posting their information on these two-namers.

I myself, along with a few other board members record all of these examples. Maybe someday it will help with putting a sheet together.



Jantz

Add the Bender portrait with 'Delahanty, Washington' at the top.

Two names
 

I have the following:

Turner/Lobert - it has a Piedmont 350 back
Bowerman with Chance on top - SC 350
McGraw with Hayden on top - SC 350
Stahl with glove - majorly miscut - top 1/4 of card is blank [white with no
printing, including back] - Piedmont 350

Hank

is this a double print on the sheet then?

Hopefully a board member picked this up. Great card.

http://i.imgur.com/mPjN7.jpg

Wasn't me
 

I was the under bidder... Didn't think someone would go to $800 with the juice. Very nice card, though. And I do hope someone here got it.

Bender
 

Chris!!! ERICK!!

CRAP!!!:(


hoping one of you guys scored it....:mad:

Get that card!

Not as cool as a '2 different names', but I really like this Byrne I got from Greg (GNaz) - thanks!

Rossman with Thomas at top
 

I could have sworn I posted this - sorry if it's a duplicate:

Others not listed on here. Criger/Ritchey & Bresnahan/Doolin are MIA.

http://i.imgur.com/mS2en.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7PSUP.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/quAcX.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/y534N.jpg

I'll leave this to for the printer-experts like Steve to ponder, but the Bender with two names clearly has the top and bottom names printed closer together than on the same-name cards (Seymour is a top-of-sheet card posted for reference, and Bresnahan is just for reference). It would be interesting to see if this is a trend, or just a coincidence - Chris probably has enough scans of the two types of 2-name cards to check it out if he is so inclined.

Also, the spacing on McGraw's two names is a touch farther apart than on the other two-name cards.

Great pickup, I've noticed that the names can be all over the place hight wise.

A two name card has to be the top example on the bottom half of a sheet with a lower printed name from the above different player then by chance cut long/top player cut short.

Several things had to happen to get the Bender like that, a neat "rarity" for sure.

Update
 

Since the list of two-namers has grown, here is my updated list. If anyone can add anything to my list or fill in any gaps, it would be greatly appreciated. Especially if its a typo or incorrect info. :eek: Thanks to all the members who helped add to this list.

Player Card Name on Top Card Back (if known)

1. Abbatichio(brown) Cicotte PD 350
2. Atz Hoffman PD 350
3. Bradley(port) Bender(port) PD 150-25
4. Chase(blue port) Zimmerman PD 350-25
5. Delehanty(Wash) Waddell(port)
6. Elberfeld(NY port) Parent PD350
7. Engle Phillippe PD350-25
8. Hoblitzell Stephens PD350
9. Jennings(port) T.Jordan(Bkln.port) PD350-25
10. Killian(pitch) Chance(red port) PD150
11. Killian(port) Dubuc SC 350-30
12. Lindaman Bresnahan(port) PD150-25
13. Lundgren(Cubs) Ball(NY)
14. Lundgren(Cubs) Doolin PD 150-25
15. McElveen Dygert PD350
16. McGlynn Jones(Det) SC 350-30
17. Pickering Myers(?) SC 350
18. Snodgrass(bat) Maddox PD 350-25
19. Spade Cicotte PD 150-25
20. Turner Lobert PD 350
21. McGraw(port no cap) Chesbro
22. Powell(horizontal) O'Leary(port) PD 150
23. Barbeau Strang SC 350-30
24. Criger Ritchey
25. Rossman Thomas SC 350 30
26. Bresnahan(port) Doolin
27. Livingstone Maloney PD 350 25
28. Graham(St.L) Clark SC 350 30
29. Bender(port) Delehanty(Wash) PD 150 25
30. Bowerman Chance(port, color ?) SC 350
31. McGraw(?) Hayden SC 350
32. Keeler(?) McGraw(?)


Jantz

More for you from VCP the are all listed in our T206 GMO set which stands for Ghosts, Miscuts and oddities.

Adkins ( I can not make out the top)
Barry-Shad
Crandall/Crandall (Tolstoi back)
Doyle-bat (Tolstoi back)
Dubuc
Evers-port
Flick
Hahn/Hahn (SC)
Krause-port
Merkle-throwing (Tolstoi back)
Mitchel-Mike
Needham/Needham
Parent
Paskert
Shaw-Hunky
Smith-Happy/Smith-Happy
Walsh
Williams
Willis-bat/Willis-bat (Old Mill)

There are images of all cards but some are to hard to make out what the top name is for certain.

Bobby, how do you do such a search on the VCP site? I keep coming up with "no results"

Late to the game here
 

But if

(A) Most top-bottom miscuts show the same name

and

(B) Most left-right miscuts show the same player

then

(C) Wouldn't most sheets be of just one player?

I don't believe (B) to be true... my recollection is that ALL of the left-rights that I've seen have been of different players.

All of the side to side miscuts that I have seen show a different player...
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...Scan0004-1.jpg

Be well Brian

So were there only two players per printed sheet? Top half of the sheet was one player, bottom half another player?

All side by side cards I have seen have a different players. One theory is the layout could have 3 or 4 rows of each player and a dozen+ columns.

If the first row of EFGH cards are miscut they could show the names of the last ABCD row.

ABCD
ABCD
EFGH
EFGH

Great stuff, Chris - I wasn't aware of this. Since some cards exist with two different names above them, it sounds like positioning was not set in 'stone' :p

Exactly, we have seen your Bender, Lundgren and Cicotte in different player combinations. The Bender is extra neat as so far it the only example of a card being a top and bottom card.

I'm doubting we will figure out a sheet layout with all the possible configurations but they are interesting to track.

Maybe the reason you're seeing it in both places is because one is a portrait, and the other is a pitching pose (with or without trees).

Ditto Lundgren and KC/CHI variations.

Possibly. However I am basing these off of the T206resource.com print groups & back specifics.

Same name,
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...antwonames.jpg

It's easy to speculate on rows/columns being a set number of players but don't forget that Obak sheet from H&S two years ago, where a lot of the placement was random. I think there is a decent probability some randomness occurred, or certain sections of each sheet could have room for random, or ad hoc arrangements in the printing of T206.

Having said that, this is a fascinating thread. I wonder if it can be correlated with the threads about back miscuts, large borders and stamped numbers at the edge of sheets. I suspect not unfortunately. Seems like a lot of puzzle pieces are out there but they can't all be linked between all the different types of miscuts.

You need to do an ACC search for T206 and will list all the different sets we cover with backs. The GMO is for ghost, miscuts and oddities containing also blank backs and proofs, etc..

It would be interesting to see how many of the front/back combinations for these "linked" cards sync up and how many do not.

Take, for example, a back that we're pretty confident we have a complete and accurate listing of all possible examples...Sweet Caporal 150 overprint. Taking a quick look at my index (which I think is right, but please correct me if not), I note the following out-of-sync examples from Jantz's listing below:

Delahanty (SC 150 OP confirmed) / Waddell (not)
Delahanty (SC 150 OP confirmed) / Bender (not)
Killian (SC 150 OP confirmed) / Chance (not)

So these cards must have been printed adjacent to one another on one sheet, but not both included (adjacent or otherwise) on another sheet. Along with the how many rows and columns and how were the subjects arranged questions, we also have to ask the how many different sheets/arrangements were used during production question. It's that latter mystery, I suspect, that's the most difficult to solve of all -- and the one that keeps us from getting our arms around so many elements of the T206 set.

The 34 649 OP back cards probably were all on one sheet. Brian's side by side example, the Sheckard and Goode cards are both 649 OPs. I've wanted to see a back scan of this card for years if anyone has it.

I'm wondering if the sheets of the 34 players were selected after primary printing to be overprinted or if ALC chose those players specifically for the 649 sheet.

Reverse "engineering" these layouts is near impossible but sure is fun.

This exercise is only possible with the free flow of information, including scans, in an online forum such as this. Unimaginable just 10 or 15 years ago.

I still believe the number of players on a sheet was smaller than that. There's a group of 150 series that has only a few backs available and there are only 10-12 that fit that pattern. Even those break down into two groups, one less common than the other. I think at least that group was two sheets of only 6 players. (And that each was reworked at least once)

Steve B

For those that are keeping score, I was fortunate enough to pluck this one from the T206 double name tree. Too bad it wasn't Magie, but I'm okay with it.

Lovely Day...

Very cool iggy, thanks for sharing.

Wow. A 'Magie' error on the top would have been amazing....but this is good :)

Isn't there a good possibility that you could have the same player/pose with a different double name if they came on different backs? Since each back did not print the same players?

Lee

lee
 

i beleive there is an example......cant remember the 2 cards tho...maybe jantz or chris knows....:o

a magie on top would be insane:eek:

cool card Brian! is that Wilbur Goode's arm?

we need to catch up, been too long...hope you're well.

Bowerman/Chance & Pickering/Myers are unknown pose/colour. Walsh top player appears to be from Brooklyn. Interesting discovery is Bresnahan & Bender are top & bottom cards.

Thank you to those who have shared their cards/scans, worked on the lists, and especially the folks who contribute/run t206resource.com for their print group/checklist data.

http://i.imgur.com/vNPRf.jpg

Great job. These are amazing finds. I love seeing these sheets being re-created.. thanks

T206Collector - I couldn't agree more. So many members have been so helpful in building this list.

Lee - I think there is a strong possibility that we will see a two different name T206 with different backs. I say this because I have already seen T206s of the same player with different backs, yet both backs have crop lines on them. Not long ago a member posted a Arndt Piedmont 350 with a crop line & I own an Arndt Sovereign 350 that also has a crop line. The same can be said for sheet numbers too. Its possible to see a T206 with a sheet number & then see an example of the same T206, yet the back has a crop line on it.

Iggy - Nice card!

MVSNYC - Yes that is Wilbur Goode's arm.

Chris - Thank you for the grouping photo. Its nice to see the cards in that form of layout. I will be sending you a PM shortly. I need info on the Walsh.


Jantz

Lee - Just wanted to add a little more info to your question. Cicotte is a key card at the moment since the Abbaticchio(brown)/Cicotte is a Piedmont 350 and the Spade/Cicotte is a Piedmont 150.

Hard to tell with the Lundgren cards since the back information is unknown for the Lundgren/Ball at this time.


Jantz

Added Rossman/McBride, second Rossman combination.

http://i.imgur.com/Uath8.jpg

Chris

Nice grouping photo! Thanks for posting it. You might want to check the B/S/T though, because you have one more to add to the group. ;)



Jantz

Saw that, just updating and will post. ;)

...

Nice 649 back.

Updated with Lennox/Clancy (Clancey). Higher resolution as requested Link

http://i.imgur.com/nu8oZ.jpg

In case anyone cares a two name Billy Campbell is up for auction. Lot 48 Sterling Auctions.

Picked up this Moran/Arellanes. It also has an F.F. Baker stamp.

http://i.imgur.com/SXCs6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9mPGT.jpg