Ebay question on what constitutes a complete set.
 

Sold a complete 1974 Topps baseball set a couple of months ago. The buyer messages me today and asks where the Traded set is at and that it’s not complete set without it. I never listed a traded set in the title or the description. If one was included, I always state it in the auctions. I guess I’ll have to start stating either way now.

I never really gave this much thought but I’d like some feedback on if this ebayer has a legit issue. I’m a little concerned that he will come back next with “ where are the blue team checklists, and error cards”.

No they are not part of the set. They are often included but shouldn't be expected. That being said you could always spend 8 or 10 bucks and buy one to send him and shut him up.

There's also a little button called Contact Seller that does amazing things when you have a question like: "Hey Brian, I noticed you don't mention if the set includes the traded set, does it?" signed, informed buyer who knows that assuming things is a fools errand...

Did your listing include the total number of cards? If so, then that should end the conversation.

It didn’t, I just stated “complete set”.

If I bought an 84 or an 82 Topps set I wouldn’t think the traded series was included. I feel that those are completely separate, just as with the 74.

Yeah, but those sets weren't included in packs or factory base sets like the 74 traded were.

I do agree they are separate but it's not COMPLETELY ridiculous to expect them.

FWIW, I just looked through ebay listings. Couple dozen set listings. All but 1 specified the number of cards and/or whether the traded set was included.

I consider the 660 card set to be complete

the 2011 scd sport americana standard catalog lists them separately and indicates that a 1974 complete set is 660 cards

if you google "1974 topps set" the links seem to exclusively indicate the set is complete at 660 cards

seems most accepted collecting terminology would use the term "master set" to include the traded and checklists. I'd go with Al's (ALR-bishop) opinion on that.


that being said, unfortunately if the buyer wants a return, ebay will ultimately (if not quickly) side with the buyer.

This is just a difference of opinion, there is no right answer. My opinion is the Traded are part of a complete set.

1. They look like regular cards, except for the traded banner and use the same card numbers as the original, with a added T.

2. They were issued in packs, not sold as a separate set like 1980's Traded sets.

3. When Topps issued complete factory sets for Christmas, the Traded cards were included.

can't argue with the "difference of opinion" part and point number 3 is what I'd hang my hat on if I were the buyer. However, I'm a bit OCD and for me, point #1 would almost over-rule point #3 since the added T's don't feel like a numerical sequence to me..... now if they add .1 to the numbers, different story :o:):D

But I do now agree with you, ultimately it does seem there is enough evidence on both sides to render it a differnce of opinion


regardless, if the buyer wants a refund, there's probably nothing the seller can do about it.

In a fair world, if the seller doesn't provide clear info like card count and the buyer doesn't ask, you get what you get. It should really be the buyers onus to ask questions before purchase if seller misrepresents the item that is a legit gripe.

If it was me I would tell the buyer to send it back if unhappy, they usually don't.

I thought that the 74 Topps Traded set were considered inserts to the 74 Set. I don't consider that part of the regular set.

Many sets included inserts but none are considered part of the regular set.

So, if I sell the 1964 Topps set, does that mean I have to include the insert coins as part of the set? i don't think so.

this.

Or, this could all be easily avoided in the first place if eBay sellers were actually somewhat competent and oh, I don't know, listed all the crucial particulars for any item they're selling.

What a novel idea! YOU list and sell something, YOU should be the one stating the important facts. This shouldn't be hard to grasp...

There was a thread in post war sometime back where set collectors debated whether traded sets should be considered part of the base set or perhaps part of a master set. Most seemed to feel the base set stands alone but some felt, me among them, that you needed the traded set for a complete set, or at least a part of a master set. But I would never expect to get the traded set included in a listing like the OPs unless it specifically said so

The coins are obviously different as are posters, story booklets, game pieces, stickers, etc. They look nothing like the original cards and aren't meant to update a players original card in the set.

What about 1973 which had team checklists for the high numbers or 1976? I agree, just buy the set and shut him up.

If like any sane person you don't consider a mid year insert as part of the set, all the important facts were mentioned.

Should the team checklists be included? The Washingtons?

If I listed a complete 1986 Fleer basketball set and DID not show pictures, nor make mention of the sticker set, the how on earth can a buyer moan and complain if the sticker set didn't come with it?? Same thing with an autographed photo. If I make no mention of the autograph being certified, then you get what you get. Buyers got it easy on Ebay though. They bear zero responsibility.

They aren't part of the set. PSA catalogs them as different sets, you don't include inserts as part of the base set and the cards themselves are numbered differently and commonly called itself a set.

In future, list the number of cards in the set at sale.

How about something SUPER BASIC like the actual number of cards included??
Is this too complicated to add to the listing for "sane" sellers??

Fitting clip haha

Have to agree that it's a seller's responsibility to accurately describe an item with at least a bare minimum description. Bare minimum to me would be the number of cards in a set, issues you can't see in pictures, etc.

Yes, the buyer should have asked if in doubt. Just too many shady sellers out there with minimal descriptions to feel comfortable as a buyer. I know I've bought items that were messed up, not from shipping, that you can tell the seller was trying to pull a fast one with the pictures or stock images. Most people just keep the item and live with it.

For what its worth, I sent along a traded set. I guess in future auctions I will disclose if the traded is included. Appreciate all the responses........

I thought the 1974 Topps Set was #'d 1-660. The Traded Set is a separated set and is numbered as such. Check any price guide etc and they are separate sets.

Could the OP post what his auction description actually said? The full text of it? That would go a long way in determining whether or not anything 'untoward' happened.

For the record, I would not expect the Traded Set to be a part of a 1974 Topps complete set being auctioned off, unless its inclusion was specifically mentioned in the description. They are undoubtedly considered two separate entities. When someone mentions the traded cards, they always talk about them being part of the 'Traded Set,' not the 1974 Topps set itself. No one says, "Hey, does anyone have a #612T Luke Walker for trade?" (as if it's just another numbered card.)

This was my auction description. The title line stated:

High grade 1974 Topps baseball complete set.



UP FOR AUCTION IS A HIGH GRADE 1974 TOPPS BASEBALL COMPLETE SET. THE OVERALL AVERAGE CONDITION IS NM AND THE SET IS HIGHLIGHTED BY A NM+ WINFIELD ROOKIE AND A REALLY SHARP NOLAN RYAN.THERE ARE SEVERAL CARDS THAT GRADE NM-MT AND A FEW THAT GRADE EX+ TO EX-MT. ALL THE STAR CARDS ARE SCANNED AND ARE INDICATIVE OF THE CONDITION OF THE REST OF THE SET. THERE ARE SOME CENTERING SHIFTS THROUGHOUT THE SET, BUT I DID NOT NOTICE ANY CARDS THAT WERE MISCUT, WRINKLED, OR CREASED. SHIPPING WILL BE $10.00 AND I DO COMBINE ON ANY AUCTIONS WON IN A24 HOUR PERIOD. THANKS FOR LOOKING AND GOOD LUCK.


Lesson learned, from here on out I’ll make sure to put in my auction descriptions that the set doesn’t include Traded,variations, and no inserts.

What bothered me a little is the buyer waited almost two months to inquire about this.

This stinks....I’m sorry. FWIW, I have also waited months before cracking into sets. It happens.

unfortunately that is a risk of selling on ebay.

scammers know that ebay always protects the buyers.

Definitely Not part of the set. Another buyer to block..

Put my vote in the "not part of a complete set" column.

Sold many, many, many "complete" sets over the years. Never* included the traded set. Never got questioned about it. Most people do not expect the traded set to be included.

*One interesting exception though...The one time I did sell a complete set along with the traded set...it was a 1974 Topps baseball. Maybe I set a bad precedent though pretty sure I listed it as "Complete set plus traded". ;)

Just list the number of cards you're selling - pretty simple. My view is it's the seller's responsibility to be thorough with their listing description, especially with all the new blood coming into the hobby recently.

By the way, if I would have been bestowed with the hammer price of $930 for that set, a traded set would have been out in the mail as fast as the buyer requested it. No message board advice necessary! You're lucky he didn't return it, it could have cost you hundreds as I believe $600 would have been a pretty healthy selling price.

If someone doesn't know that a 74 set is 660 cards.... should they be buying it?

How much handholding do new collectors really need?

Why not apply this thinking to the whole situation?
By your logic, the seller shouldn't be selling on eBay either if he can't even list the number of cards included.

I guess the seller should list every name too just so there's no confusion. And might as well provide description of every card while you're at it.

Pretty sure every price guide in existence is very clear on how many cards constitute a complete set. It's in black and white. No room for misinterpretation is there?

You can make every excuse in the world you want, if sellers on eBay can't do what they're supposed to and list basic information about what they're selling, then you have no place blaming any buyer for the lack of information in the description.

What's next? No photos, with "Guess" the only thing listed in the description??

Just describe what you're ACTUALLY selling....
Rocket science, I know.

Reading through this thread what sticks out is I think most agree 1- The traded cards are not part of the Base set 2- The seller could have listed the number of cards and not had this issue.
Now to the real world issues 1- He got an overmarket price for a set so he knew if he told buyer No, that a real possibility would be the Buyer would return the set. So I think 100% of us who sell on Ebay like me would have sent along the set exactly like the OP.
My opinion the 74 traded cards were inserted in packs but are not part of set. They were by definition an insert set like 1965 Embossed , 1969 Deckel edge, 1970 books,
But I thank the OP and all who responded because I will be more vigilant in my item descriptions.

I say the Traded sets, regardless of year, are not a part of the regular sets; and a 1974 Topps "basic" set is complete at 660 cards, without the separately numbered traded cards. Next thing you know, someone will come around and say the 1974 set you sold them isn't complete because it doesn't have both the San Diego and Washington NL cards, or both Jesus Alou variations, or the two Dave Friesleben San Diego variations (not including the Washington NL).

Now, an argument could be made that a "master" 1974 Topps set would need to include the Traded cards, along with all the variations in the regular set.

For those who think the set is not complete without the traded cards, since the traded cards were included in the same wax packs as the regular cards, consider this:

What about 1969 Topps Deckle Edge.....they were included in the wax packs with the regular 1969 Topps cards. 1970 Topps booklets were included in wax packs with the 1970 cards. Should a 1969 or 1970 Topps set not be considered complete without these other cards/booklets? I think not.

Steve

Were the 1974 Traded cards an additional card in a pack or was there one less of the base cards in a pack that included a Traded card?

Those cards look nothing like the regular issue cards, 1974 Traded card fronts are identical to the regular cards, except the Traded banner. They were clearly meant to update the original card to show a transaction.

If you look at a 1974 Topps Factory Set, it says "Official 1974 Complete Set, over 700 cards" the box does not say "660 cards plus bonus traded cards" I believe that shows Topps intended the Traded to be part of a complete set and however PSA or price guides list them is irrelevant.

Where are you seeing Topps "Factory Sets" from the 1970s?

I started collecting via wax packs in 1970, and started buying cards, from Larry Fritsch, in 1975. "Factory" sets were never seen or heard of, until Topps began issuing them in the mid-1980s. Even the big dealers like Fritsch and Renata Galasso bought 12,000-card cases, and had to hand-collate all the cards into individual sets.

Steve

There was one less base card. They were not an extra bonus like topps did with inserts in their 60s and early 70s packs. My recollection is that when you bought a box with the traded cards you often got multiple traded cards in many packs.

Topps did a factory set in 1974 for JC Penny's catalog.That was the first year baseball cards were issued in one series. They didn't do it again until 1983.

Wow, I did not know that.

Thank you!

Steve

Interesting, so the Traded were not inserts then. To me, further proof they were meant to be part of the regular set.

Here ya go

OK, it appears Topps set the precedent that the "official" 1974 set includes the traded cards. Now, taking it further, since they also issued a 44-card Traded set in 1976, with the same numbering system, the "official" 1976 set would also include the Traded cards.

So, I now agree that anyone selling the set, should say if they are not including the Traded cards in the set they are selling. Having said that, I feel it should still be up to the buyer to verify what cards are included, before bidding. I can see, though, under ebay's rules favoring the buyer, that any seller who doesn't specify that the Traded cards are not included, is opening him/herself to a buyer complaint and possible refund.

Steve

Plot twist.

Bob Apodaca called. He's hurt you left him off your list...

There was also a 1982 Topps Factory set came in a brown woodgrain box That says "The Complete set Baseball picture cards" No date on outside box. I have one around here somewhere..
J

1974 was my second year collecting. I got a ton of those ugly traded cards. Of course they were part of the set as they were in every pack of cards. But I learned a few years ago when I started collecting again that the standard convention is to sell the traded set separately and if sold with the set it is more like bonus cards. An inexperienced collector like I was until recently would not know this.