Interesting email I have not seen
 

Saw this post on the PSA boards:

Anyone else get the email from Small Traditions with the very disturbing content about the PSA Invitational in Las Vegas

If anyone has this email, I would love to see a copy.

Thanks!
Rich

Small Traditions

Greetings from Small Traditions,



We are pleased to report that our recently concluded Inaugural Premium Holiday Auction succeeded beyond our best expectations. Please read about the record-breaking auction results in our blog entry here. As a thank you to our many consignors and customers, we are excited to extend the following free grading and review offers, the latter of which is extremely time sensitive, so please call 303.832.1975 or write info@smalltraditions ASAP, and we'll be in touch as soon as we can.



High-End Consignments Wanted for Free In-Person Reviews at PSA Invitational Event in Las Vegas



A benefit of its high volume of monthly card submissions to PSA, Small Traditions is a regular attendee at PSA’s Invitational events in Las Vegas. At these events, high volume submitters like Small Traditions are able to meet with PSA’s graders in order to discuss discrepancies with cards that appear to be under-graded. What most collectors don’t realize about the grading process is that PSA’s graders will often judge cards over-conservatively, erring on the side of caution rather than grading too liberally and thereby flooding the hobby with higher-graded cards that barely meet PSA’s stringent grading standards. The truth is, however, that grading is a very subjective process, and cards that appear to be 8s and 8.5s to one grader one day may appear to be 9s and even 10s to another grader another day. This is the reality of third-party grading, and it’s no secret, at least not anymore. Most dealers would rather buy a high-end PSA 8 NM-MT Mickey Mantle card and review or re-grade it themselves in order to make a profit, rather than telling the card’s owner that it might be under-graded, but not at Small Traditions, where the company works to maximize consignor sales in order to maximize its 15% (buyers premium) stake in the consignment partnership, and that means maximizing card grades.



The PSA Invitational event is one of the best opportunities of the year to realize successful reviews, when an under-graded card can be discussed in person and “bumped” to the next grading level, and Small Traditions founder Dave Thorn is currently seeking high-end cards graded PSA 9 Mint and below, which their owners feel have been under-graded, for presentation to the PSA grading staff at the next PSA Invitational, from January 15th to 17th in Las Vegas. This offer is extremely limited and time sensitive, and the deal is of course contingent on granting Small Traditions the privilege of auctioning any cards that are successfully reviewed to a higher grade. Please call 303.832.1975 or write info@smalltraditions.com as soon as possible for more information.



Consignments Wanted & Free Grading with PSA and BGS on Items Valued Over $100



Unique within the industry, Small Traditions also offers free grading with PSA and BGS on cards valued above $100 and free authentication with PSA/DNA and JSA on autographs valued above $200. Most of the items in the Inaugural Premium Holiday Auction, in fact, were graded by Small Traditions at no cost to its consignors. The company is currently seeking consignments for its January, February and March Monthly Masterpieces Plus Auctions, and it will be returning to its exclusive 100-Lot Premium Auction format in April to mark the beginning of the 2014 MLB season. Please call 303.832.1975 or write info@smalltraditions.com for more information.



Thanks, as always, for supporting Small Traditions, and happy New Year!



Best Regards,



Dave Thorn


This message was sent to rgutheil@gmail.com from:

Small Traditions LLC | 950 Lafayette St. | Denver, CO 80218


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I'd say this is shocking, but it's not.

To me it likes like another way to make money on something that has already made them money.

Well
 

Well, I wonder if they will be taking cards that are obviously overgraded and discussing a downgrade? :(

The email is so disturbing on so many levels. To think that anyone can "coerce" a grader completely flies in the face of the integrity of PSA, Small Traditions, and this hobby. This is akin to insider trading or early release of information to "preferred" clients in the investments world. Both are completely unethical and/ or illegal.

PSA:
"Hey graders, come to this event where you will speak w/ our most important dealers and clients. Remember they help pay our bills, so if they have an 8.5 give that card a little nudge to a 9 or 10. For your efforts, we'll fly you out to fabulous Las Vegas and get you drunk (and/or laid)."

So disgusting on so many levels. Don't give me any crap about "subjective" and "grader was having a bad day". This is flat out unethical in my opinion.

And to think that Small Traditions has the balls to email people without feeling slightly ashamed of what they are doing makes my blood boil. I'll certainly think twice about buying again from ST if every card will now be overgraded. I did wonder how their consigners were systematically getting low population 10s on some difficult (condition sensitive cards) like the '88 ProCards Biggio.

Yuck. And sadly, it is probably rampant w/ many dealers and AHs. But I now know of one to stay away from for sure.

This does not bother me as muich
 

If you are a big customer in today's world. you expect better treatment. Perhaps you don't publicize this but do you really expect anything different.


It's part of the world in 2014 as we know it.

Rich

This is very disturbing. I was bidding on a PSA 10 POP 1 1968 Topps NL HR Leaders that I thought no way would ever an example be found in a 10. They even eluded in the item description about getting this card in the proper holder in a 10.

I'm thinking if this kind of thing really bothers you, you're in the wrong hobby.
I'm being facetious, mostly.

+1

I don't do the graded thing, but this is a great analogy.....they're all in bed with each other.

Solution? Stop sending cards in and stop paying a premium for slabs. It's not that hard. If you lie down with dogs.....

Tasteless and disturbing.

"It's enough to make a man puke up his soul." James Agee.

Yes, they're giving that third/fourth/fifth review to top submitters, but are they also popping out cards, letting you erase that unsightly (and costly) pencil mark, and regrading it for you while you wait? I don't think so.

Very disturbing indeed. The bump-up game has become a lucrative business in itself (this is not news) but this organized event, in my opinion, truly undermines the integrity of third party grading.

Psa = joke
 

This email really confirms what we all know if going on anyway. It's a shame that we as collectors continue to be slaves to a plastic holder with a name on top and take it up the ass by these guys with a smile on our face. There service SUCKS! Truly it sucks! There owner is an ego maniac that has zero problem standing in front of a room full of PSA faithful and without a hint of doubt proclaims "he was one of the three present when the now famous trimmed Wagner was graded and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that card was not trimmed", yet there seems to be zero backlash when it goes public that the card is indeed trimmed! This is the only business in the world that I can think of where you get in the ass and get kicked in the balls time and time again as collectors, and we gladly come back with a smile on our face. Unreal!


And before anyone goes off on me, I am speaking squarely to myself with the statement above.

I think that Dave Thorn has very eloquently documented some of PSA's unethical habits. At least now the collectors who wear blinders can take them off and put on sunglasses instead.

I do not think most of us in Dave's position would have elected to document, in email, said PSA behavior, but it might have made financial sense for him, letting his customers officially know what they should already have known.

I wonder how PSA feels about the email?

This email only states what has been on the Small Traditions website under the "Cosign" tab.

http://www.smalltraditions.com/consignwithus.aspx

Matt,

I think part of the problem is that many collectors play the "crack-out and bump-up game" themselves. I know one collector who has several highly ranked mid-60's PSA registry sets and about 1/3 of the PSA 9s were once 8's.

But you bring up a great point - which is really even more alarming. The bigger problem proven by myself and others is that PSA either can't detect doctored cards or intentionally allows doctored cards to be slabbed. It would be grossly naive to think the T206 Wagner was the only doctored card that originated from Bill Mastro that was slabbed by PSA.

And I agree with you again - why people tolerate these questionable business practices defies all common sense and reasoning.

LOL! The other way of looking at this is if I'm a bidder then I'm paying good money for a card that is likely overgraded. So thanks for pointing this out. This auction house will never get a dime of my business and from this point on the emails I receive from this outfit will go straight into my spam folder.

You can certainly avoid this company if you want, but why would you assume they are the only ones getting this sweet deal? There are much bigger auction houses and dealers out there. Is there any reason we shouldn't assume other companies are getting the same sort of treatment from PSA? These other companies just aren't telling you about it in their advertising!

I don't recall claiming these are the only ones getting preferential treatment but I agree with you that it is very likely a widespread problem and if you can find a list of the attendees I will certainly follow suit by avoiding those dealers as well.

What I find interesting is that historically PSA advertises that the graders never know who the submitters are. Here's a quote from their website regarding the PSA grading process:

The submissions are now assigned a generic order number, removing the identifying information from the order – thus removing the potential for bias.

http://www.psacard.com/Services/PSAGradingProcess/

Also, if you read this article about the Cobb-Edwards Honus Wagner, this was supposedly the reason PSA would not grade their card:

As a matter of policy, PSA will not examine material in the presence of its owner. Cobb and Edwards refused to allow their card to be examined without their being present. Orlando told them they could fly out with their card, "drop it off and pick it up within an hour or two."

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_53.html

This whole event is extremely troublesome in my opinion and is a slap in the face of sports hobbyists.

Not shocked about this and personally don't think there is a problem with allowing a collector to talk to a grader. The problem is that the access is given only to big money clients.

It won't be long before the first 10.5 grade will be awarded.

Invitational event. Anyone else invited?

Sincerely, Clayton

I assume there would be multiple submitters invited. Presumably a client would have to hit a certain level of submissions before they are invited. I started wondering why PSA would want to do this. Would this really be a money maker for PSA? Or is this event just considered a good will gesture for the largest customers to keep them happy and maybe a perk for your best graders?

So it goes without saying that if you present a 9 to a grader at the Invitational, and upon review he feels it's a tad overgraded, he will of course lower it to an 8.5. I mean, it's only fair, right? Win some, lose some.

I laughed when I saw this, but then quickly realized PSA is the only one of the three that doesn't have a grade higher than Gem Mint... so maybe it will happen.

Completely agree with the above sentiment, and felt it might be an opportune time for a bump.

Perhaps events such as the activities outlined in Post #2 will catch the eye of the FBI, as they decide where to focus their investigation. Many here have wondered whether simple ineptitude or favorable treatment are to blame for the plethora of altered cards making it into numbered slabs. In the unlikely event that Law Enforcement actually reads these threads, perhaps the aforementioned information will serve a greater purpose.

All submitters are equal. Some are more equal than others.

Little wonder that so few have spoken up. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, I guess.

EXACTLY!!!! Well there is also the friend factor. Meaning if you friend is the seller of altered cards then it magically becomes PSAs fault.

So much Corruption On Every Level.....it's all seems acceptable with no signs of slowing or change......very sad.......

If we'd only have known about this earlier....say, in 2014 or abouts..:cool:

I just yesterday talked with a veteran collector who didn't know about the current scandal. I told him about it, and his response was "People were talking about PWCC’s altered graded cards years ago, but people on Net54 who were his customers kept defending him."

That's perhaps the biggest part of the problem.

The indisputable "before and after" images have helped to sway opinion, but most collectors still don't know the extent of the fraud. And many who DO know simply don't care, or are hesitant to acknowledge it. Those who are heavily invested in PSA slabs would rather turn a blind eye or even defend the process... with many still looking to PSA to solve the procedural and ethical issues which plague the TPG industry.

Much like asking your drug dealer to administer addiction counseling.

Maybe these folks can help.

Nope. Pretty sure they don't want to talk about it.

There is nothing in the room to see. Really. Move along sheeple.....

yikes, I can't believe I wrote that 5+ years ago...my blood still boils!

So much for the graders not knowing who's cards they are grading. :mad:

But anyone yet noticed the possibly unfair dual criticism?: that on the one hand we complain that PSA gets so many wrong because they don't spend enough time/effort examining an individual item, and now here also complaining about a process where they are asked to take a more definitive look to get it "right".

granted not in the ideal or apparently equal manner, but it should not be disregarded that more careful attention needed when grading is a piece of the puzzle...

When a big spending submitter gets a private meeting with a grader, is it really just a cordial "Say, maybe you can spend another half minute triple-checking those corners" kind of thing?

Or is it more like "Look, we're spending $10,000 this month alone; we need this 5 to become a 6?

I don't know the answer (I don't get the special private sessions with graders) but I have to wonder why the in-person session is even necessary, after a card has already been submitted and then re-submitted.

I know what you mean and concerned for the same reason.

But trying to work through it logically, the big dealer/AH is going to spend the $10k anyway, since in practice PSA is the "only" game in town, and both sides know it...so since they know it, it doesn't seem like from a business perspective that PSA should be vulnerable to that sort of pressure, since they have nothing to gain (going to get and keep getting the $10k's no matter what) and can only lose longerm in the event that buyers were to catch on if their stuff seemed to tend to be overgraded.

Of course all this is just theorizing what motivates people and how they think, but the above seems right to me. If the hypothetical 5 doesn't bump and stays a 5, then what's the pusher going to do? Take the stack of $10k fees to a competitor and give them the wink-wink? Let's say that one gives the 6. We already know an SGC or BGS 6 will sell less than the PSA 5 anyway, so it doesn't increase their margin, which is why they don't go elsewhere and PSA has months long turn-around-times, and that's why it *seems* like PSA shouldn't be at that sort of friendly-overgrading risk.

These are good points - You're saying that PSA has no need or desire to please any submitter, high-roller or not, with favorable grades. What you say makes sense.

I'm thinking, generally speaking, that it's usually a good idea for any company to keep its major accounts happy, and it costs PSA basically nothing when they bump the grade of an asset.

But my point is that the only difference I see between submitting and re-submitting hoping for grade increases, vs. an in-person meeting with a grader, would be to influence that grader (and, psychologically, there are many tactics that can be employed to get someone to see things "your way" that don't overtly use the scenario I suggested above.)

Riiighttt….. as long as they still sell for more there's no problem...

The deflection and denial I've seen the last few months is more discouraging than a grading company basically letting people buy grades, or looking the other way on alterations.
I can at least understand greed, actively being an apologist for it going off the rails I can't understand.

If you are referring to my post above you COMPLETELY misunderstood me.

I will simplify: When submitters get to meet graders personally, coercion (a very bad, unethical, unfair thing) is likely to occur.

Wow. Surprised but not shocked. It is rather audacious for the AH spelling it out on the website. I guess that is the new transparency.

PSA touts 76 million collectibles certified! How much time is spent grading any given card? One would think PSA would want to maintain the highest standards and integrity. I don't swim at that deep end ($$$$$) of the card pool, but I do buy graded cards. I don't think TPGs are going away. When dropping major coin on a card, I would be willing to bet that the majority on this site are buying slabbed cards.

It puzzles me as to why a company would continue to test the trust of their customer base. Perhaps the card market is in a bubble, because during a bubble, people, companies, tend to lose their collective minds.

I was at show once, looking to buy a 1954 Red Heart PSA 7 Mantle. A major dealer had 3-4 of them in one of their 20-30 cases. All cards had different prices. I asked why one 7 was grossly higher priced than the other 7's.
Because, "if the card was regraded it would comeback a 7.5." Oh, really? Then walk your arse over to the psa booth and have the card regraded. Did not purchase from the major dealer and will not purchase from that dealer. Now I guess the dealer can take the card to Vegas and get the bump.

More like a 5 yrs old transparency. Nothing has or will change so it seems.

Everyone seems pretty happy..

...and to clarify further for anyone scanning this thread in modernity: it's from 2014 but was revived in the past week when a post on BO forum re-discovered and linked to it...

Agree. I guess one key issue is how, in practice, does it all actually take place. So we know PSA goes to the big shows and sets up shop to do same day turn around without people having to put their precious items in the post. But does it happen as plainly as the email stated, that they "meet with graders", or was that an inarticulate and imprecise way to explain what seems more likely to me (granted just guessing and I've never been to see it): that the actual graders are behind the scenes (and chained to their chair given the quotas they are presumably forced to maintain), with the special tables, lights and magnifiers setups that are required, and it's just the front-facing staff that are receiving the submissions and making notes about whatever concerns/suggestions the submitter has.

I don't exactly like the above either, but that would not be as bad as the other visual, which is the VIP submitter actually standing over the grader while squinting through the same magnifier, with a hand on their shoulder...

Crack 'em!
 

Sometimes when ya' sit back and think about it, resubmitting in a holder shouldn't be allowed. If you want to resubmit you have to crack it and send it in. And all submissions would truly be anonymous to the graders. Whatever it gets it gets. That would seem more arms length than submitting in a holder and not being able to go down in grade or arguing, especially in person, for a better one (admittedly I have done that and rarely succeeded :). )
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