Exciting Ramly Discovery
 

Recently, I made an interesting Ramly find that I wanted to share with the board. Although research is still ongoing (which will be turned into a more full-fledged article), this sheds a bit more light on what is already a fairly mysterious and short-lived regional brand.

Ramly (and the associated T204s) is most closely associated with the Mentor Company of Boston, Ma. (originally T. T. Timayenis & Co.), which was formed by Telemachus Thomas Timayenis circa 1905 (any guesses as to where the brand T.T.T. came from?!). Timayenis, himself, had a very controversial past to say the least - it’s a fairly disturbing Google read that I will not dive into here so as to keep the topic purely baseball-related.

In any event, as many people know, Ramly and T.T.T. cigarette boxes are exceedingly rare, with maybe 12-15 or so Ramly boxes known at present, and a scant 4 or 5 TTT boxes known at present. Prior to last week, I was only aware of 4 different styles of Ramly cigarette boxes.

Generally speaking, the Ramly boxes can be categorized as follows, although there are some other subtle differences:

(1) a black clam shell cigarette box with the words “Turkish Cigarettes” on the bottom under the photo, which photo was framed in black;

(2) a black clam shell cigarette box with the words “Turkish Cigarettes” on the bottom under the photo, which photo was framed in purple;

(3) a black clam shell cigarette box with the words “Turkish Cigarettes” on line 1, and “Plain Tips” on line 2, on the bottom under the photo, which photo was framed in purple (and smaller than the other Ramly boxes); and

(4) a black clam shell cigarette box with the words “Turkish Cigarettes” on line 1, and “Mentor Company U.S.A.” on line 2, on the bottom under the photo, which photo was framed in black.

The inside of all of these boxes are identical in design and text. Interestingly, all of the known Ramly (and T.T.T.) cigarette boxes feature a Series of 1901 tax stamp on back, which was generally used until the end of 1908.

Then, last week, a totally new style of Ramly cigarette box popped up. This box was a red clam shell box, and featured the words “Turkish Cigarettes” on line 1, and “Mentor Company U.S.A.” on line 2, on the bottom under the photo, which photo was framed in black. More interestingly, however, is that the inside of the box had a very different design when compared to all of the other known Ramly boxes. The inner text was principally the same, except for one difference - the words Cambyses Co USA (even though the front still retains the Mentor language). Even more interesting was that this Ramly box had a 1909 (Series of 1910) tax stamp on it with no overprint, therefore dating it to circa-1910. It’s also ever so slightly smaller than the other Ramly boxes (other than Plain Tips, which is even smaller, still), although still larger than a T204 card. Also, the box is from the same factory/district as all other known Ramly boxes.

Cambyses Co was a totally new name to me, so that led me down the research path (Dheeraj Khiytani was hugely helpful in uncovering a lot of initial information on Cambyses). Cambyses Co was incorporated in Boston MA sometime between possibly 1910 and May 1911 by Edward Costello, Charles Matthews and Joseph Brennan, which is some six years after Timayenis incorporated Mentor. The first reported evidence of incorporation appeared in May 1911, but I was able to find the name Cambyses Co in a tobacconist registry as early as January 1910, which coincides with the series of 1910 tax stamp on the new Ramly box. As some may know, Edward Costello (one of the founders of Cambyses), was Mentor’s sales manager, and there are newspaper reports from the period describing his sales trips and pushing the Ramly brand on behalf of Mentor.

So, what’s the connection? How do we get from Mentor to Cambyses, and is any of this significant?

Well, by 1908 or 1909, Timayenis was in poor health (he later died in 1918), so I started with the working theory that a succession plan was put into motion whereby Ramly and related Mentor brands would be transferred to Costello to own and operate under the newly-formed Cambyses Co. After a lot of research, both Dheeraj and I were able to find information that makes this hypothesis almost a foregone conclusion, although as I type this, I haven’t located any information that definitely shows when the transition happened. However, by 1910 and 1911, there are newspaper write ups describing Cambyses as having great sales of “their” Ramly brand, so one would have to believe the transition happened before then. Also, among the snippets of information, there is a January 1914 report of a fire in the building at 404-406 Atlantic Ave damaging the offices of Cambyses Cigarette Company, which, of course, was Mentor’s former address. So, it’s clear that Cambyses didn’t just inherit Mentor’s brands, they also took over the offices and continued to do business out of the same location. In the end, however, Cambyses was short-lived, and the Company didn’t survive much past the death of Timayenis in 1918.

Now, let me get back to the significance here. It’s obviously great to tie together some loose strings on a really obscure cigarette brand, but there is more of a revelation here (at least a revelation, to me). Obviously one of the most intriguing discoveries would be if I could connect Cambyses to the distribution of the T204s, or, potentially, the square frames. I can’t yet, and I don’t even know if there would be a connection. I do find it intriguing that all known Ramly boxes prior to this new discovery clearly pre-dated the 1909 T204 date based on the tax stamps, and this new box more closely aligns with the distribution given the 1910 tax stamp, however that isn’t proof connecting Cambyses to the T204s in any way. I also find it interesting that T204s do not state Mentor Co on the back of them, although there is at least one small newspaper article describing Mentor packaging baseball photographs inside Ramly cigarette boxes. However, that's not necessarily the death knell in my mind. After all, the Cambyses Ramly box still says Mentor boldly on the outside front (its only inside it refers to Cambyses).

Now, I am sure that some might also point to the few advertisements and coupons that exist advertising the Baseball Club Photogravures. Those coupons clearly state The Mentor Co. at the bottom. And here is where things get interesting. As far as I was aware, besides a 1909 window display depicting the Boston Red Sox, the only known large format Ramly premium depicted the 1910 Pittsburgh Nationals (although we know a few different teams were offered from the coupon description). However, I have now discovered definitive proof that a Ramly premium featuring the 1912 American League champion Boston Red Sox was produced and given away by Cambyses as part of a Ramly brand campaign. As far as I’m aware, this is a totally new Ramly associated product, and extends their distribution of baseball-related redemptions to at least 1912.

So here’s the proof… In researching Canbyses, I came across a short blurb describing the “big photo picture” give-a-way that was published in an October 5, 1912 issue of the United States Tobacco Journal. The description clearly states the premium was available in exchange for 10 Ramly box tops, and could be picked up from retailers in an effort to drive Ramly sales. This is the first I’ve ever heard of a 1912 Ramly premium, so I’d love to hear from anyone who might be able to shed more light on this. Does this also mean that T204s we’re not simply a 1909 distribution? The research goes on...

In the interim, below are a series of photos laying all of the above out. Thank you to Jim Shaw, Scott Brockelman and others who I borrowed info and certain scans from. Apologies in advance it is not better organized.

This is why I love this sub, thanks for posting.

Jon,

Excellent and informative research as always. Thanks for sharing it!

Scott

Great research, Jon. I look forward to reading your future updates.

May I ask where you found this new example? Do most of the various examples originate from the Boston area or have they dispersed over time?

Steve

Question
 

Also recall seeing in an article a few years back the possibility of some sort of connection between RAMLY and spelled backwards... YLMAR pronounced HELMAR . Or is this just a weird coincidence? Or would it rather be HELMAR spelled backwards is RAMLEH pronounced Ramly.

Thanks guys. Appreciate the kind words.

Steve - this latest pack came out of Connecticut. So “Northeast” for sure.

Rocky - Ramly was a word play on the popular Ramleh cigarettes, which found its sales impacted enough they reportedly changed the name to Helmar.

Hey Jon:

GREAT bit of Sleuth-Work! Just thought that I'd add this scan for fun!!

Thanks man

Jon,

Nice work....I guess it's best you ended up with the box, I never would have delved this deep.

Although there are very few instances of anyone finding T204's in a box, there are two that I am aware of.

A "find" purchased by another board member years back had the Ramly Turkish Cigarettes Mentor Co. black box as we have known before filled with T204 cards, there was literally no room side to side in the box, the smaller Cambyses box I don't believe would have been large enough to hold a card.(pic attached of cards in find box).

Further as I recall, the box from Leon's collection once housed a raw card that he got graded(box pic attached from Heritage Auction of his collection).

The very few newspaper ads promoting the Ball players pics in the packages that I found were July 1909, further tying together the black Mentor Co. labeled box front and the actual T204 cards. The large two known store displays are dated 1909 and one has two of the Ramly Turkish Mentor box fronts attached to it(owned by a board member), mine never had any boxes adorning it.(scans attached). I also found a Red Sox Score card from 1909 with an ad for the T204 cards(scan attached).

Another Ramly Turkish Cigarettes Mentor Co. box was also found with all 10 cigarettes AND the 1910 offer for the photogravure. The newspaper ads are all from 1910 for those. (Box and coupon with 1910 stamp attached).

It appears Timayenis and the later owners/execs. ran several different campaigns, 1909 was the introduction of the T204 cards as we know them, which was only advertised for a few short weeks, although they might have been offered the entire season. The images used for the set were all Carl Horner images, rotated ever so slightly. Given Timayenis' business acumen, chances are he pirated those and may have been called out on it by Horner and the card campaign shortened.

The 1910 campaign appears to be for the large photogravure, of which three are now known. They are on very fragile newsprint type stock and most would not have survived.

1912 we now know that Mentor Co./Cambyses promoted a Red Sox photo or premium of some type. It's entirely possible they did something in 1911 as well.

All that being said, I believe the card issue is confined to 1909, bolstered by the players and their respective teams. The new Red Cambyses box and ad for the 1912 Red Sox item certainly make for a premium/photo of some type to search for.

Great work, Jon. You are my hero for cigarette packs!

Here is a postcard that goes with the subject.

https://luckeycards.com/ramly200.jpg

I have studied that post card many, many times and today was the first time I saw the T. T. T. in the upper right corner.

Found these pics. is this just a regular Ramly box? not sure what kind of info u can pull from these pics for your research.

This one has the green box but has the red box inside printing. Not sure this is just a common thing for those Ramly box that has 1910 tax stamp.

Super eye candy in this thread. Being a postcard guy, I have to say that Leon’s Postcard is off the charts cool. When you are ready to move it, please send it my way!!!

Another combination of the existing wrapper, the old box color, a 1910 stamp and the Cambyses text inside. So a new combination.

I think they may have been using existing box stock that they had as the Mentor Cigarette Packs were also a red box.

Outstanding! Great stuff - thank you for sharing

Jimmy

Thanks everyone for posting. Amazing stuff!

Chris - that’s the first I’ve seen of another Cambyses. Of course, I didn’t even know that connection existed before last week. As Scott said, this is definitely a new combination (black box, Cambyses interior).

I’m starting to agree with Scott that these boxes may have been utilizing either extra box stock, or instead extra label stock (or both), before possibly switching the exterior printing over to Cambyses as well (as opposed to retaining the Mentor language on the front). As of now, I’m not aware of a Ramly box with Cambyses printed on the front, but let’s see if one comes forward. It’s also interesting to note that both of these Cambyses Ramly boxes have 1909, Series of 1910 tax stamps. So, the year of manufacturer is proving important as suspected given a likely transition from Mentor to Cambyses.

There’s also 2 interesting observations that I didn’t note in my write up above because I didn’t know what to make of them, but seeing the new Cambyses box posted now gives additional support to calling it out.

First, if you look closely at the Ramly labels on the 2 Cambyses boxes, you will see that the upper portion of the gold border displays the little raised dots that go across the top of all of the Ramly boxes, including the Mentor Ramly boxes. It's a consistent pattern. However, when you look at the lower gold border on the Cambyses boxes, you will note that the bottom row of raised dots has been trimmed off, even though that bottom row of raised bumps appear on the Mentor Ramly boxes. When I first saw the missing bottom border bumps, I had originally thought that this new Cambyses Ramly box must be slightly shorter than the Mentor boxes, but that thought was quickly dispelled when I compared the sizes, and truth is, the full label would fit on the box from top to bottom.

Second, when you look at the back label seam of the 2 Cambyses boxes, you will see the label overlaps more on the Cambyses boxes when compared to the Mentor boxes. It's really evident when you look at the eagle - it is a bit squished on the Cambyses boxes, and one of the moon and stars is partially cut off (because it’s under the overlapping label). This overlapping is clearly due to the fact that the Cambyses boxes are just slightly smaller than the Mentor boxes width wise. So, going back to the point above about utilizing left over stock, it appears that instead of printing new outer labels that fit the slightly smaller Cambyses boxes, they utilized the left over stock of Mentor Ramly labels that were slightly larger.

These observations may be even more proof that the transition from Mentor to Cambyses happened in 1910, since they are seemingly utilizing left over stock on boxes that likely date to 1910 based on the tax stamps. Again, I wonder if a 1911-1914 Ramly box comes to light, whether that would have Cambyses printed on the front.

Really neat stuff!

Fascinating!

The opening statement did lead me to go down the T.T.T. rabbit hole however.

No need to editorialize the obvious, but for anybody interested in this strange mans story.

https://forward.com/culture/439401/h...ng-in-america/

Jon, great work. Very interesting.

Peter

Great stuff, Jon!

Great thread, very cool finds, love it when the puzzle begins to take shape. Congrats to Jon and all the others who take interest in 20th century packs and T204s.

Jon, Scott - this is a great thread!

Appreciate the knowledge drop fellas.

Interesting info! Picked this up recently...thought it was neat. Tried to do a little research on it...looks like Ted Z posted a similar box years ago, but never saw the verdict on it...card added for scale.

Mac

The Red print cartons have been around for decades, probably from a find of some type of unused cartons. They have not been tied to the T204 issue, I believe the cartons are a bit small to hold the known Ramly Mentor Co. package which the cards came in. Other Ramly/Mentor issues were in slightly smaller boxes. I have a box of the cartons somewhere I will get them out see what does and does not fit.

I also haven’t seen any advertisements that state Ramly are domestic blend tobacco (or Turkish and domestic blend). Likewise, I haven’t seen the slogan “None Better” used in advertising. Here is a late 1914 ad for Ramly, which is the latest I've found thus far.

Wow

Interesting History

Great Pictures on those

I am amazed at how much there is still to learn and also the diversity of items to see, enjoy, and collect

Great read. I recently saw the attached Ramly box in an auction listing. I assume that it post-dates the ones that contained cards. Anyone familiar with it?

Jeff

Jon,

Great work !

Thanks all.

Jeff - I’ve never seen that one before but I also can’t make out the manufacturer from the photo. My initial inclination is that it’s a different - possibly foreign - brand with the same name.

I’d be curious Scott B’s views, too.

- Jon

Jon here's some additional information on the Ramly brand and some of the people associated with it.

The T. T. Timayenis & Co. was incorporated in mid May 1904

May 16 1904
[IMG]https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...ale/img344.jpg[/IMG]


May 23 1904
[IMG]https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...ale/img347.jpg[/IMG]

The Cambyses Co. was incorperated in May 1911

May 22 1911
[IMG]https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...ale/img346.jpg[/IMG]

In 1914 Edward Costello was associated with the Hellenic Tobacco Co.

January 10 1914
[IMG]https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...ale/img345.jpg[/IMG]

Pat-

Thank you so much. This is great info I’m adding to the file.

- Jon

I don't know if this was posted, but it seems that the switch from Ramleh to Helmar took place in late Summer of 1907:

https://photos.imageevent.com/imover...907_%20_1_.jpg

What a great resource, thanks for taking the time to post. Now, where can I get some of these Ramly's for a reasonable price???

DOH! Your post just cost me $$$... I was on the fence about buying my first-ever Ramly card and was ready to say no.

And then I read this post and it inspired/pushed me the other way! (at least I bought it from a Net54 Board Member!)

#meanttobe

For clarity Ramleh/Helmar and Ramly are two entirely different companies, in fact the two were in a law-suit also highlighted above, which Anargyros decided to simply turn Ramleh around and use Helmar to avoid the confusion of the two brands.

Only Ramly(Mentor Co.) produced and distributed the T204 cards, all of which are quite scarce when compared to other tobacco issues of the day.

I only find advertising for the card issue for about 3 weeks in 1909. I have a hunch and that is all it is, that they used the Horner images without permission and may have come under fire for that, although no court records seem to show any type of action. Timayenis was never afraid of litigation or to take shortcuts which gives me reason to suspect his unauthorized use of the Horner images. Whoever produced and/or printed them simply tilted each image a few degrees and removed the various team names.

more examples, you can compare to the players T204 card.

Pure Turkish according to Timayenis.


[IMG]https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...ale/img348.jpg[/IMG]

Would you post the full ads with the paper they appeared in and the dates? One of them is in post 9 but without a paper/periodical name/source or date discernible. Those would be very cool to see in complete form. The ads can be as fun as the cards

This is a wonderful thread. I ventured into my stash of Ramly stuff today to look at the box I have (One top, two bottoms). I need to look at the front again, because I was focused on the inside of the top, which is different from the ones posted. Also, both backs have no tax stamp, ripped off.
Also, there is writing on the side of the box, via a torn sticker, that I am interested in.

It's the little tidbits of info we get that keep it exciting.
.

And I apologize for not getting to it sooner. But without getting into to details it's hard to get to my cards. That is deliberate, but as my brain ages, maybe not ideal.

need a ramly live break :cool:

Looking at the box in more detail I think it's a run-of-the-mill Ramly box. The little disclaimer sticker appears on both bottoms on the side opposite the Ramly lettering. The sticker is incredibly fragile, and I actually broke off a piece attempting to straighten it.

The only difference is the inside of the lid wording is different than those posted above, but I have no idea how many variations there are.

Tony, the box you posted would most likely have been from between May 1904 and May 1911.

Great thread. I need more Ramlys!!

https://luckeycards.com/t204bancroft.jpg