The end results of hoarding
 

This could really go in any era's board. There are numerous cards that are publicly known to have been hoarded, like:

T206 Doyle's
Obak Miller's
1952 Topps Bartirome (the funniest by far)
1961 Topps Hal Smith
1964 Topps Curt Flood

Hoarding a card seems to spike the value of it as set collectors and/or opportunists scramble. I don't think this is really supply/demand so much as it is a perception of supply/demand. There are some cards I hoard and I own a large percentage of without causing any change in price, because nobody knows it is hoarded. There's apparently enough still out there that the price hasn't risen naturally.

It seems to me that outing a hoard hurts the hoarder over the long haul - it brings in more cards in the short term but escalates the price to such an extent than it can't be better over the long haul than being patient and waiting for cards to come up and quietly snapping them up.

I'm mostly curious about hoards that have stopped, and their end results. 1952 Topps Bartirome's are an expensive card still, even if the value has fallen from the peak. I believe this hoard is dead, but the prices remain elevated. the 1964 Curt Flood hoard is, I believe, also dead but it's price has returned to only a little above normal. Has any significantly hoarded card ever had those cards return back to the general hobby after the hoarder gives up or passes away, to balance values out? Has publicly hoarding and offering above market ever performed better than silent patience would have?

I'm still waiting for my hoarding of 1989 Gregg Jefferies rookie cards to pay off...I have not seen the market spike on those yet, but I wait patiently.

[QUOTE=Kaneen;2225997]I'm still waiting for my hoarding of 1989 Gregg Jefferies rookie cards to pay off...I have not seen the market spike on those yet, but I wait patiently.[/QUOTE. Ha!!! Ha!! :D

I have hoarded several different cards over the years. Still hoarding 2 different cards and only 2 people besides me know what thse 2 cards are. My experiance in hoarding is as soon as others know you are hoarding a specific card the majority try to take avantage of you.

I recently quit hoarding a card i had been hoarding since 1989. Untill recently I bought or traded for everyone I have ever seen except two. Then I had a guy email me that he had "some" he wanted to sell. He wanted easily 10X what I had paid for them in the past. Then he let me know he had 30 of them. So what I had thought was an insannely rare card now had 4 times the population that has been found in the previous 3 plus decades.

hoarding
 

Yea, hoarding is a strange quirk of collectors....many have done it to a small extreme ..some larger...I find it amusing ...Topps printed ..I dont know...6 million 1972 T " Joe somebody "....even the largest bankroll in the hobby would have trouble "tilting the scales ".

Even the dude who thought he " cornered the market" of 64 T Flood cards...was not even close .....I will admit it does effect other collectors looking for that certain card

I stopped hoarding T205 American Beauties, Cycles, Piedmont 42’s, And Broadleafs.

I had a lot of people pissed off at me for unloading that hoard. Same guys took full advantage of the decrease in value it created. Can’t see the forest through the trees sometimes. Your welcome.

Selling is a weird thing with hoards. I hoarded a rare card and owned about half of the known copies. Sold them slowly over a couple years for really really good money. After I quit hoarding and sold mine another hobby friend got the bug and hoarded the same card. He also got to own about half the known population. That population went from around 24 when I hoarded to about 40. My friend decided to unload his collection because of age. With unloading his fairly quickly it has killed their price. The last couple he sold was for about 20% of the cheapest one I sold.

It’s an interesting concept. Side note: I think someone must be hoarding 1922 e121 Hornsby!

Heres my hoard of 1! I'm waiting for the Harry Heilman e121 hoarder to release some.

Phil!!!!!!!! An absolute beauty.

+1 That is a great looking card, Phil!

Yes,,, + 1

I think someone hoarded T206 Titus cards. There is NO WAY that guy should be worth that much simply because he had a mustache.

This was my assumption too. If it wasn't hoarded, this was the silliest 'hot commodity' card I remember.

I see the last sale of a common back is a P/F grade raw that went for $199 from Greg Morris. Evidently this one is still going crazy.

Not exactly the same as hoarding, but it can have the same end effect when a card that was previously thought to be scarce or in short supply is found out to exist in higher numbers. For some post-war examples, see the Gil Hodges Dormand postcard, 1964 Topps Giants (though high grades of those have risen quite a bit lately) and the 1967 Topps Brooks Robinson. The Hodges and '64 Giants were the victims of a stash of cards that were later found and the Brooksie was found to exist in higher numbers than previously thought.

Of those, I believe the Hodges pc find had the biggest effect on price.

I would posit the 54 Bowman Ted Williams 66a card too.

A card being found to be more common than thought, or a discovery of a whole ton of them like the 1964 Giants seems to do the opposite of hoarding. Public hoarding makes the price go up, because of a perception of scarcity of availability. The perception of abundant supply tends to make prices go down.

Hoarding anything in a marketplace at the expense of everyone else is a dick move. Obviously it's a more serious matter if it involves goods that people need to function in society, but still.

When a collector is stuck between not completing a set and paying an artificially highly inflated price, it's naturally a no-win situation. The worst experience of my (or likely any) '52 T build was, of course, Bartirome.

Some people actually celebrate it. This guy has been proud and very vocal about his attempt to "corner the market" (as he admits) on a '57 T mid-series card that he picked at random. And many of the responses he gets find it funny or praiseworthy. I hope those who do have to buy their own hoarded card sometime.

Anyway, he gave up on that hoard as it didn't work. And now there's this :rolleyes:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115372068351

Yes, you are correct. But the OP asks:

"I'm mostly curious about hoards that have stopped, and their end results."

I guess I'm a dick. Buying anything that has more than one potential bidder is at the expense of someone else. I'm an all-collect-no-invest type but I don't believe anyone is entitled to buying a card at X price they want. Whether it's this guy taking 300 Paul Smith's off the market or 300 different collectors driving up the price of Roberto Clemente, I don't see much of a difference. Investors stockpiling stars, player collectors, set builders, they don't seem to offend people but having many of a card for non-investment (I don't believe one of these hoards has ever really panned out financially, and besides bnorth's account above not a single divested hoard has been identified yet) seems to be upsetting. I'm not quite sure why that is beyond the fact it seems quaint.

Has any of these halted hoards led to a crash in prices or a return to pre-known hoard pricing? We haven't yet identified a card that this has happened too. Even no-longer hoarded cards that are publicly known still seem to have elevated price tags.

But it’s no simple mustache. That’s an anachronistic 1 in 524 mustache.

The difference is that when it comes to paying way up for an item, a deliberately created market shortage or price gouging situation is not going to be considered the same by many (as one that happens from genuine supply/demand effects in a marketplace.)

Let's say a gas station buys out all the other gas stations in a remote area (and forces people with no other option to pay $10 a gallon when they'd normally pay $3.) Do you really think that station will be viewed the same by customers as if a $10/gallon price there was the result of a nationwide shortage that was out of their control?

Even if none of these situations panned out financially for the hoarder, that doesn't change the fact that it can cause people to pay way up for something that they wouldn't have had to otherwise.

And of course no one is entitled to buy a card for "x price they want". But wanting to avoid that price gouging situation that only exists because of malicious intent from one entity (and pay a reasonable market price for something)? That has nothing to do with any sort of "I want to name any price I choose" entitlement

It's no more deliberate of a shortage than any other card being collected; everybody wants Willie Mays driving up his price. That is the result of deliberate buying by people. It's okay if a group drives up the price of X card, but not if it's one collector?

Nobody is hoarding odd cards and selling them back at triple the price. I am not aware of any example of this happening in hobby history where a hoarder hoarded a card and kept his hoard for sale one at a time at a higher price. Happy to stand corrected if an example can be found.

These hoarders don't seem to be doing it to price gouge - they do it because they want the card and value it more than others do. We've not yet been able to name a single card where it appears to be financially motivated. I fail to see how this is malicious intent; it's the same thing we all do for cards we want. We buy the cards we want. If there's more demand for X card than there is supply (or perception of supply, actual supply seems to have surprisingly little to do with it much of the time), it's price goes up on the market. I collect a card because I like it and it strikes my fancy, I don't see the maliciousness in this.

If I want a bunch of the same card, why should I not collect it? Why should I ensure it is available to you at the price you think it should be worth?

You keep conflating "collecting lots of a card cause I like it" with hoarding one w/ only the specific intent to drive price way up. Yes, I feel the latter is a different situation. And those are the spots I'm referring to.

No, the examples like Bartirome and the '57 Paul Smith from my link are not being done by people who just do it for the love of the game. Look at Cole Bartiromo's past. And as mentioned before, the Smith guy has been very vocal in FB groups about hoping to corner the market and drive the price up for a pump and dump.

Cole was an absolute nutter, but he doesn't seem to have seriously attempted to make money off his bizarre 1952 saga, unless there is a piece I am not aware of. He did like that card, he doesn't seem (again, I am happy to be corrected) to have sold off his collection even though he doesn't appear to be buying it anymore. He never reasonably stood a chance of making a profit even if it was all a very clever price fixing attempt with the prices he was paying.

Paul Smith is easily and readily available for normal pricing for a card from the SP series: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...&LH_Complete=1. I don't know anything about this one but if this is what he is trying to do, he is completely failing and seems to not buy a great many of the cheap copies of this card.

Most hoarders are hoarding because they like that card and have a fun time seeing how many they can accumulate. I am still waiting an example of a hoard that led to a profit or could reasonably have been expected to lead to a profit for these hoarders. It costs the hoarder money to publicly hoard a card; it seems there are 0 cards identified where this alleged dick-move-price-fixing-for-profit has ever worked.

EDIT: You said "Hoarding anything in a marketplace at the expense of everyone else is a dick move." - that isn't exactly in line with your new position that doing it with intent to profit is terrible. It quite specifically specifies that any hoarding of anything for any reason is being a dick.

I realized that as well. But I did not take a "new position"; I just didn't clarify my original one enough at first. In that initial post, my mind was only on hoarding with intent to drive prices up (as my instinct was that those who just collect tons of the same card weren't apt to have a Bartiromo effect on the marketplace). I could be wrong about that though.

You could be right about Bartiromo, but you're wrong about the Smith guy. He owns hundreds of that card and his intent was clear. Again, just because he failed (or others failed) to cash in has nothing to do with my point about such an attempt's effect on the marketplace regardless. And the only reason Smith is easily available for a somewhat reasonable price now is because that hoarding attempt just ended. It wasn't like that prior in the last year or two; the dude would proudly state now and then that the cheapest one on ebay was $35 or $40 because of his actions.

Have a good night.

The person that was hoarding the Titus is a member but he doesn't post anymore.

The Pelty horizontal was semi-hoarded a few years ago and the prices increased a little but they eventually came back down.

I recently sold a 1975 Jose Cardenal PSA 8 for $150 and I have no idea why the market is currently dictating this price. The population is on par with other commons (121 PSA 8).

A quick look at Ebay shows 2 sold recently for $170 and $179.

1975 Topps has become hot the past couple years (again), but this one I can't figure out. I paid $20 for 2 of them about 5 years ago.

Late as usual
 

Late to a thread as usual...

Add the T207 Hageman to the list of "relative(ly)" hoarded cards that are still affected price-wise. Not sure if that collecting is still active, but the $$ effect definitely lingers.

--
Mike

There is a board member who actively collects one of the cards mentioned in the first post of this thread. A few years ago, I flat out asked him why he collected so many copies of this card. There is a reason, and I can assure you (based on his response) that it has nothing to do with hoarding a single card to create a market shortage. I appreciate his reason as it is a personal one for him and in no way does it appear his intent is to create a market shortage.

I have attempted to collect multiple examples of a given card mainly for the reason I thought it'd go up in value and was a good "investment." I do not have the means or the desire to hoard dozens of copies of the same card...there are no cards I like that much? And ultimately I got bored and got rid of them not having the patience to "wait" for an outcome.

My dots miller run...and other runs may be perceived/considered hoarding of sorts...even though the backs are all different?

I remember a few years ago a lot of tituses sold for a steep discount over individual sales...so...to me if one hoards a common card...when it comes time to sell more likely than not you will lose $$$$$.

Not so much?
 

From a former back-run collector, this isn't hoarding, IMO, Pete ... its a collecting style, and has nothing to do with the need to compulsively fill holes, gaps, etc... for completeness. Really, it doesn't ... its perfectly natural. I tried, and gave up..

Your Miller run is inspiring.

A great example of a newly discovered "hoard" was mentioned earlier on a set I am now collecting, the 1953-55 Dormand Cards. It is interesting how this effected the price.

A little history (I learned through searching here on net54)...these cards were produced to be sold at the stadiums and for the players to have something to hand out from 1953-1955. The players received a brick of 700 postcards. Gil Hodges never received his allotment for whatever reason, making his card SUPER rare. For years this was considered one of the rarest, if not the most rare post-war card out there.

Fast forward to the 2000's, Mr. Dormand passed away, and relatives while cleaning out his basement found the 700 Gil Hodges cards in pristine condition. These were turned over to an auction house that sold the entire lot of 700 for $22k. The poor soles who paid thousands for their example prior saw their investment go south.

Fast forward again to today, and I have no idea how the person that bought the lot doled them out, but it is now rather cheap. Funny...they were initially sold for around $31 a card (700 divided by the $22K). That person could have buried that lot and not made them public. Obviously that didn't happen. A few weeks ago I bought a NM raw example for $20. Graded goes higher of course, but this tells me the person who paid $22k most likely didn't do well, or those who picked them up since are taking a loss. Either way, the accidental hoard and it's release really tells a pretty fascinating story.

Whats funny to me is that even at 700 cards released, that is still a very low population...if this set ever becomes all the rage I could see those going up in value in the long run. Glad I got mine for cheap.

Anyway, enjoying this conversation. I've overpaid several times over for some of the cards mentioned...64 Flood...I actually had 7 61 Hal Smiths come with a lot I bought a month ago, I just cracked up when I saw that...he didn't get them all as the lot was new to market. I bought a 52 lot from the same person last year who had a Baritrome in it that went to a net54 person, and at the time I didn't even know the story on it. I was educated quickly...:)

The post you responded too also ignores the other side of the equation. The 'hoard buyer' is most likely actually pulling more of those cards INTO the market place as the price rises, which obviously weren't viable for sale at previous prices (otherwise, they would have sold). And those now pulled in to SELL their cards are actually reaping the benefits as well.

What about the accidental hoarder????

I truly believe Topps was following me to the store every time I bought baseball cards in 1974. It was unbelievable how many Winston LLenas cards I freaking pulled. I truly stopped counting after around 20 of them. Never EVER saw his cards increase in value, then or now. (And no I did not hold onto them. I made them even rarer with my bike spokes.)

Sort of off topic but, jeeze one would have thought I had cornered the Llenas market in my part of the neighborhood back then.

Cheers,

B. T.

There's a few T206's that I hoard, but only with certain backs. So they have gone unnoticed. There's one modern card that I hoard, and because others can look at eBay sold listings and prices, every time another shows up, I have to pay a little more. I'm my own worst enemy. The first couple cards I paid around $17 each. Now I have to expect to pay about $80.

Quite a few hoarders of various 1952 topps.

You'd have to have your head examined if you decided to stop and sold them all at once.

I assume the bartirome kid is still buying as prices havent come down that much. I do see many selling only to be relisted higher a week or so later

As an E98 collector, this thread speaks to me lol


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sure I hoard.

But hoarding any Topps card for profit is a fool’s errand.
Hoarding for your own enjoyment should be encouraged , since a hobby is supposed to be fun.

Many people know my hoard card is 1971 Topps Football #186.
I have over 100. That’s not as many as you’d think because they are easily found and cheap (mostly) . So many have come from fellow collector pals, maybe half of them, for free…just because.

In OBC a lot of us have “hoard “ cards, but we’ll never find out the results of the original question. I don’t think we are selling any.

I suppose the original question is surrounded around the “What If” someone lets go of a large stash of 52 Bartirome or 64 Flood or a certain OBAK card.

I can predict the results will be just like BSF e98 cards. Initial high price point and a steep decline as demand cools.

It's both the "what if?" with the implication that hoarding is never really profitable although it upsets quite a few collectors, and the question of whether being public about it actually works better than staying quiet. It's been my belief that it probably does not work better to be vocal and drive up prices, that you'll end up with most copies that come to market anyways at a much lower price if one remains quiet.

I've never thought of my 71 compulsion as hoarding before but it probably is. The most I have is 52 copies of Brodie. I pick up all the low-mid tier stars and HOFers when I see them cheap, under a $1 for a Maynard, Larry Wilson, Bobby Bell, Tarkenton, John Brodie type I generally pick it up with no intention of getting them all. I can't imagine this will ever have any real effect on supply, there are so many 71 footballs out there

1971 Topps FB
 

Greg… yup you are a hoarder.
And you chose a great set to do so!

I’m glad I’m not the only one;)

Not from anyone on this forum, but …
 

Hold my beer.

As someone pointed out above, a known hoard may bring more examples out of hiding. When I was finishing my 1910 Obak set around 10-15 years ago, a N54 board member PMed me that he had an available Miller, SF and offered it to me directly because he wanted to help me complete my set, and he added "didn't want the hoarder to get another".

I hoard a particular 1916 Zeenut (have 5) because I like it, but I don't think anyone cares and it hasn't affected the market because no one in their right mind would try to complete that set.

Andy

To me, this is definitely not hoarding. Every card is different per the backs. As a back collector, I can appreciate a great run like yours...
.

IIRC, I thought he went to jail for some reason? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else. But, if so, what happened to his hoard?

hoard
 

True comment about attempting to hoard... then after a few years ..realizing you haven't made a dent in the overall scheme of things ...or lost interest- or started questioning - why " waste money on another whoever"... use that money for something " you need "

I know a few people who have hoarded certain cards. And then, they sold when they got tired of them. The cycle repeats over and over.

This happens in the world of unopened fairly regularly. Lots of times when someone is working on a "project." For example, there was a guy working on putting together a box of 1984 Topps rack packs, with all 24 having Nolan Ryan's base card on top. During his project, the average price of those on ebay and the Facebook groups jumped significantly. He finished, and the prices have subsided a bit. But not completely, because the spectre of "ebay comps" haunts us still. He's no longer in the mix buying them like he was previously, but his move did impact the market price and still is having some echoes. There have also been some folks who focused on particular years, like 1983 or 1975, and their aggressive purchasing has definitely affected the marketplace. Of course, more product always emerges, but I think in the unopened world you can definitely see the outsized impact just one or two collectors can have on the perceived "value" of a particular product.
kevin

What level of player, company, and year card collected constitute a hoard?

5
50
500
5000

Where does one draw the line?

I think that is a very subjective number to say the least. Someone shows me a 5K count box of a single player company, and year. They may get a side eye from me and maybe I would consider that hoarding, but is it really?

With the amount of cards printed of a player it may not be considered hoarding to someone else. Where is the line drawn that it will have an effect on the price of the card or a perceived scarcity?

And better yet, how can anyone else know that a particular card is being hoarded if the perceived hoarder never lets on that they are doing this?


B. T.