Are my expectations too high? Creased vintage cards
 

I've recently gotten heavy/big into vintage. I enjoy buying in person, but I also enjoy buying/trading for them online. It really helps offset the cost of putting a set together. But I'm curious if I might be have my expectations too high. Here's why.

Over the past 2 weeks, I've bought what I thought were some nice cards on eBay and also made a couple of trades. Both were for set needs for 1957 Topps, and both the cards involved in the trade and the cards I bought were listed as Ex.

But when I got them, they had creases. I got a lot of around a dozen in today from a trade over on Beckett. Around 10 of them were marked Ex, while the others were marked VG-Ex. But half 6-7 of them were creased. Some had multiple creases.

Also, I bought a nice Ex 1957 Topps Dodgers Sluggers card in that was listed as Ex by one of the big box sellers on eBay. Got it in, and it too had a crease. So here's my question.

Can cards still be in Ex condition with creases? I typically list out that I'm looking for VG-Ex to Ex with no creases, bends, indentations or wrinkles. Do I need to change that? Do I need to upgrade to NM or something? I've got most of my 1958s in NM shape, maybe Ex-Mt.

Typically anything I get that has creases or bends goes straight into the trash. I have no use for them, and I'm not sure anyone else can use them or even wants them.

I opened a return on the Dodgers cards, and the buyer accepted. So hopefully that one gets resolved. Also, the trader on the trade deal has offered to take the cards back.

But I"m just curious as to if my expectations are too high.

raw or graded, when buying online you MUST see a good quality scan and buy from a reputable person/dealer. Consider using a credit card thru paypal for double buyer protection.

Sometimes even a graded "2" can be more aesthetically pleasing than a "5". So buy the card, not the grade.

Thanks for the tip. I have tried to take good looks at scans when buying online. But I know there's some stuff you can't see through a scan.

As far as payment, I only buy when I have paypal money available (from selling other cards). That way I don't link it to a bank account and don't run up a credit card that I may not be able to pay back. I don't like to use our family money for cards.

Also I don't buy graded. I've never dealt in it, and I don't want to start. I'm strictly a raw person (I enjoy putting the cards into pages in my notebook and in my set).

I've had people, especially here, ask for my email, but I'm reluctant to give it out. I don't know what the other person is going to do with it. That's another question I have. Why does everyone go through email? I don't understand why people can't just post the IMG link from Imgur, Photobucket, whatever, to a PM or the thread.

So sometimes I've bought without actually seeing scans and just going off what the seller/other trader tells me as far as condition, creases, etc. But that's only here and just a couple of times. I actually haven't been burned, knock on wood, when that's happened. It's only when I've seen photos.

If you go by PSA grading standards I believe a 5 (EX) can have a crease.

There are a lot of lazy people out there. Not vindictive, per se, but they don’t t give a shit about taking time to actually inspect a card...especially when they have large inventories like the box sellers. Commons just arent worth the hassle to most people. It easier/cheaper in the long run to issue a few refunds than spend the time doing it right in the first place.

Really? Well that's my question. So I guess I do need to up my standards. I don't mind being OC a little (maybe 70-30) or fuzzy corners. But I can't stand creases.

Email is just so much easier. Why would you be worried about someone getting your email?

Just for fun and easily the 5th time, why would you throw out creased cards? It makes zero sense. You could easily sell/trade them on here. Just list them at a real price and not NrMint price with a supposed discount.

If you buy graded, you can remove it from the plastic and put it into binders. Many of us here do that:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=200591

Not much anyone can do with your email. Mine is tiger8mush@yahoo.com and I'm sure I've posted it here 100s of times. I guess you could sign me up for spam but otherwise its like knowing your street address or your license plate.

I do agree though, if someone is posting for sale on the forum, I prefer to see pics. I almost never request a pic if they don't post one. Many times I've made a purchase based on a pic of a card I think looks neat that otherwise I wouldn't have.

An EX should not have a crease, but PSA allows for a "surface wrinkle" which is a ripple on one side of the card only to remain an EX (probably on the back). However, no, you're not being too tough. If an online seller is going to call something EX they should divulge if there are creases.

I'm not sure why I'd be worried about my email being given out to people here. I'm just really trying to be secure. I've been hit 2 times over the years with ID theft. So I'm really hesitant to give stuff out line (credit card information, address/telephone, email, etc). I'm just trying to be precautious. Plus, I only check email about 2 times a week. I'm on here almost every day, if not every day, and multiple times a day at that.

There are lots of people on this site that deal in low grade cards, especially for commons. It makes a set much cheaper especially when commons for the most part don't sell the set at a future date.

I also request email to send pictures. I don't know any other way to do it.

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+1

I hate lazy descriptions. "See the picture to see what you get." I hate that. Very deceptive. I got burned on a Mantle about 10 years ago. No mention that the Mantle was creased. Wish people were more upfront and honest.

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I practically ignore a raw card's listed grade with most dealers. There are so many who overgrade their inventory on ebay that it's tough not to, and sometimes it can get pretty bad (one dealer, who I've seen post here occasionally, comes to mind where I would usually expect three grades lower than the listing).

Have just tried to use the zoomed-in pics as much as possible. And if they still hid damage that wasn't mentioned in the description either, then send it back. Thankfully that hasn't happened a lot though

Any card I receive that's graded EX (or better) and arrives with a crease gets returned immediately. I have had to resort to emailing sellers up-front, to ask if there are any existing creases or surface wrinkles. Even for raw cards graded as high as EXMT. If they fail to reply (which is rather frequent), you can safely assume there's a crease or wrinkle they failed to disclose.

Even the best of scans often are not good enough. You need to ask specifically, if you want to collect crease-free cards. Simply put.... most sellers are LAZY!

The worst (to me) are cards graded PSA 4. The vast majority of eBay Sellers NEVER take the time to describe the card itself. They simply rely on and state the random and variable PSA grade. There's no way to tell if the "4" grade is due to corner wear or a crease that fails to show up (unless you ask before you buy).

Hope this is helpful, and best of luck!

You should expect cards that fit the grade given. As said anything ex or higher shouldn’t have a crease.

Regardless of grade stated grade...
 

When I sell, I describe all flaws I can see with a card and then offer my grade opinion. If there is a flaw I can see in a graded card, I offer the same in my description. Grading is highly subjective. I agree a card in EX should have no creases - I might describe a card as "a small surface crease, otherwise EX". When buying I just ask the question if the description and or scan are unclear - Are there any creases, paper loss or other flaws?
Many sellers sadly do not describe their cards thoroughly enough.

+1 on all accounts.

But- be sure to mention any creases...to the point of giving the exact spot on the card where the crease is and estimate its length.

My preferred vintage card source on ebay is the Battersbox- I have never purchased a creased card from them and do not recall seeing one described as having any crease. (Though that may be because I skip to the next listing if creases are mentioned.)

I usually go for EX-MT or EM as some call it...you pay more but not as much as legit NMs.

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Enlarged scans typical are ok. If there is a minor surface wrinkle that you have to hold at exactly a 33% angle under florescent light just to even see it should that be disclosed?

Please don't throw them out, I and countless others would be happy to take creased vintage Topps off your hands for our low-grade sets :).

+1 I avoid mutilated, intentionally damaged cards and writing, but I have learned to live with some creasing.

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+1 As long as cards aren't super damaged or have paper loss I'll happily take them. 1. because it usually means I can get them in my budget and 2. I think it gives them a certain character and gives them a more authentic look

VG cards can have creases for sure, I have some graded VG cards that have creases. However to me, an EX card can NOT have creases.

As to good scans, unfortunetely many times a card when seen directly head-on from a scan or photo does not show creases but if you have the card in person and move it on an angle you can then see creases that didnt show when looked at head-on.

I have run into many cases too where sellers are very liberal with their "grading", if you dont want creases you gotta check with the seller before buying.

Of course it should be disclosed. If someone is shelling out good money for a piece of cardboard, they have the right to know what they're getting. If a car has a scratch on it that can only be seen from an angle, is it still not a scratch?

Returns are a big hassle for the buyer and a waste of money and time for the seller.

Why not create a separate email address for your card dealings? No worries about ID theft...

I’m still a relative newbie — vg are allowed creases By grading standards and commonly have them. I agree it is extremely annoying to get vg cards with undisclosed creases. I personally either sell as good or vg with crease.

Op has several times in past mentioned throwing away lower condition cards. I messaged him a while back requesting he not. I know he put at least one lot of lesser common cards I think from the 60s that had almost no value up for sale a while back so he did make an effort. Not sure if anyone ever bought the lot. But it is a pain to sell poor commons— not worth the hassle to sell 20 cards for a dollar or two.

Sometimes hard to even give them away. I send them for free 20-30 in an envelope and there aren’t many who want them even for free, though I just sent out a bunch. Some probably get thrown away.

I currently have two 54b rizzutos missing most of the paper on front though backs aren’t too bad if anyone wants for free. Not even obcers wanted these!

That's funny!!

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Creased vintage cards
 

With my 53 Bowman set I have been assembling I began with cards in vg to vg/ex condition and at first there weren't any problems. As I got to the last few I needed to finish the set I began to receive cards that had wrinkles and in one case paper loss on the back that wasn't mentioned in the description. I previously mentioned a 53 Berra that was listed as a PSA 4; the card looked nice but up close there were several wrinkles at the top left corner. I wanted to like the card, but I finally decided to send it back and search for another in excellent condition, instead.

I've learned that a number of sellers are very "liberal" in their grading. There's also a certain amount of laziness when a seller depends solely on the posted image of a card, rather than giving some explanation as to its appearance. For the rest of my upgrades, I am going to purchase cards in excellent condition that I can clearly see and receive answers if needed before I make a purchase.

I need the following upgrades in Excellent condition: Williams, Rizzuto, Wilson, Stanky, Marion, Cain, Nuxhall, Pierce, Hodges, Spahn, Easter, Rush, Drews, Boyer, Mitchell, Berra, Michaels, A. Clark and Abrams.

I'm with you all the way on this...

So frustrating, and seems like 95% of eBay sellers now just rely completely on the scan or the PSA/SGC Grade as the full description, without writing a single thing about the actual card. Very lazy, IMHO...

Their scans rarely show surface wrinkles, and to just say "PSA 3" or "PSA 4" tells you nothing. There are tons of 3s and 4s that are crease-free and just have some honest corner wear. But you'll never know unless the seller takes the obligatory 10 seconds to say so.

That said... I am having an impossible time finding a mid-grade '56 Clemente. The PSA 5s are all way overpriced, and the 4s might or might not have "mystery creases" that you can't see on a screen. Ideally, I'd like to nail down a crease-free example with VG or better corners. You'd think one would be readily available, but the work involved is simply not worth it!

I can probably help you out...

I just recently sold a very nice Berra and Spahn (EX+ and EXMT respectively), so that's a bummer. But I do have a stellar Gil Hodges (SGC 6) and Raw cards of Rizzuto and Nuxhall that are crease-free and would grade at least EXMT.

Shoot me a PM if you're interested in seeing pics, or doing a trade that involves a 1956 Clemente (as described above). Thanks!

+1.
You really have to ask a seller if there are any wrinkles, creases or issues that can't be seen from the picture on ebay.

Commonly accepted grading practice before TPG's and going back to at least 1980 if not earlier, holds that "EX" cards should have no creases, or at least not anything resembling a crease on the front of the card. I believe that SGC's standard currently says that a 5 can have a light wrinkle on the front which does not break the surface and does not detract from eye appeal, but in practice it's rare to see that get a 5; many cards like that get lower grades even if they look fairly good and you can't see the wrinkle. I once had a '55 Bowman Kaline in a PSA 5 that had noticeable wrinkling on the front, but otherwise the card was NM-MT+. I guess they bend the rules sometimes. With raw cards, unfortunately you have to find a dealer who is reputable and does not routinely overgrade cards, as so many of them do these days - and especially with vintage. The better advice for anything of substance in midgrade is probably just to buy graded if you like the eye appeal. The vast majority of 5's from a reputable grader will not have a true crease.

Thanks everyone for all of the responses. I've got lots of reading to do, haha. But I did catch some points already. Mainly ask questions and don't throw out creased cards, haha. As far as graded, I'm not into it. I'm not going to buy graded. If I do, I would crack it out and put it into my notebook and go from there.

An EX card can have a small surface issue if the rest of the card looks nice.

It's always worth emailing the seller and asking questions about the surface integrity, especially on raw. Generally on mid grade raw if they don't specifically say the card doesn't have a crease you almost have to assume it has a crease. This is especially true if the card is priced well, unfortunately.

I have been collecting '57s and I share your pain. Been burned numerous times. I have gravitated toward sellers that are communicative. I've probably had ~250 shipments sent to me in the past year and have returned one card. I could have returned 10 or 15 cards, easily, but if it's not big $ it's not worth the hassle to me.

You can get burned with creases on graded 5 cards as well, although it's safer in my experience and they are easier to resell.

Also, you can resell the creased cards, especially for 50s and earlier. I have 50 or 60 creased 57s that would grade anywhere from 1-3 and I figure I can get a buck apiece for them.

It's a pet peeve of mine these days that so many sellers are unwilling to give their raw cards a grade, and just throw their hands up insinuating that because they don't work for PSA, it's not safe to hazard a guess as to the grade of the card. "I'm not a professional". Ok great, but stand behind what you sell. Describe the corners and the centering and the surface wear at least if you are afraid to say and let buyers judge for themselves. Grading was a thing long before professional graders. When I sell something online I'm going to tell you I think it's EX-MT, or VG-EX, or what have you. I may be wrong, but at least I'm telling you. That's the respectable thing to do.

As a buyer, I hear you 100%. As a seller, i cant say i blame other sellers for not assigning a grade. I stopped assigning grades when i was ripped off several years ago selling a group of a couple hundred exmt commons, and graded them as such. Got an email from the buyer claiming they were vg at best, then he sent me vg commons back and of course ebay gave him a refund. I imagine had i not assigned a grade and just said “see photos” it would have given him another hurdle....idk. Point being, i see the risk and don’t judge those not willing to take it.

Thanks for this information. I am watching a couple of the star cards on eBay. I emailed the seller about creases (they were listed as VG-Ex and Ex). I haven't gotten a response in the 3-4 days since I sent the email. Not sure what that means. But with eBay's return policy, I can always return them if they don't meet Ex standards.

As far as selling graded, creased cards, why would you grade a 1-3 PSA and then sell for $1? It cost like $10 I imagine (or more) to grade cards. Or are you saying you sell the creased cards as raw for $1 apiece?

Either way, thanks everyone for the responses. They've been real helpful.

OK I just have to ask. Why all the "i don't know how to sell cards" and "why do I not get exactly what I want" and the plethora of other silly posts/threads you make, seriously.

When you buy cards you quote current prices and sold prices on eBay pretty well. When buying you seem to be an expert behind the scenes. Oh yea isn't your PayPal account linked to a card shop, I know it was when you paid me.

So the big question, why the act?

Wait, what? I made 1 post asking if there was any interest in creased cards and 1 about Ex cards being creased (this one). I figured that was a legitimate question becuase I've seen some that are in VG range that are crease free and some in Ex or Ex-Mt that are creased. So I was trying to get some clarification. Thanks for helping me get that clarification.

I once sold a large lot of 71 commons and conservatively said the lot averaged ExMt, when they really were better than that. They guy that got them complained that they were NMt and not as advertised. I guess he wanted the lower grade. People are funny sometimes.

I once sold a large lot of 71 commons and conservatively said the lot averaged ExMt, when they really were better than that. They guy that got them complained that they were NMt and not as advertised. I guess he wanted the lower grade. People are funny sometimes.

I once sold a large lot of 71 commons and conservatively said the lot averaged ExMt, when they really were better than that. They guy that got them complained that they were NMt and not as advertised. I guess he wanted the lower grade. People are funny sometimes.

Per PSA "Standards" - Nothing above VG-EX with a "crease".

If I'm not sure I normally send the seller an email and ask specifically - "Do they have any creases"

EX-MT 6
Excellent-Mint
A PSA EX-MT 6 card may have visible surface wear or a printing defect which does not detract from its overall appeal. A very light scratch may be detected only upon close inspection. Corners may have slightly graduated fraying. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. Card may show some loss of original gloss, may have minor wax stain on reverse, may exhibit very slight notching on edges and may also show some off-whiteness on borders. Centering must be 80/20 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

EX 5
Excellent
On PSA EX-5 cards, very minor rounding of the corners is becoming evident. Surface wear or printing defects are more visible. There may be minor chipping on edges. Loss of original gloss will be more apparent. Focus of picture may be slightly out-of-register. Several light scratches may be visible upon close inspection, but do not detract from the appeal of the card. Card may show some off-whiteness of borders. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

VG-EX 4
Very Good-Excellent
A PSA VG-EX 4 card's corners may be slightly rounded. Surface wear is noticeable but modest. The card may have light scuffing or light scratches. Some original gloss will be retained. Borders may be slightly off-white. A light crease may be visible. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

VG 3
Very Good
A PSA VG 3 card reveals some rounding of the corners, though not extreme. Some surface wear will be apparent, along with possible light scuffing or light scratches. Focus may be somewhat off-register and edges may exhibit noticeable wear. Much, but not all, of the card's original gloss will be lost. Borders may be somewhat yellowed and/or discolored. A crease may be visible. Printing defects are possible. Slight stain may show on obverse and wax staining on reverse may be more prominent. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back.

I get it. In the modern hobby, precision with grading raw cards leads to nit-picking like this, unfortunately. I'm still going to give grades and detail on things I sell personally, because I think it's the right thing to do. For a lot, I guess you just have to put out disclaimers along the lines "some better, some worse". If you don't want to deal with someone getting picky - then be sure to highlight if you have a no-return policy. Though if a buyer decides to dig in and challenge it, eBay has a history of siding with them. It's a risk you take.

"As far as selling graded, creased cards, why would you grade a 1-3 PSA and then sell for $1? It cost like $10 I imagine (or more) to grade cards. Or are you saying you sell the creased cards as raw for $1 apiece?"

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting I get these cards graded. I'm just saying if anyone were to get them graded, they would range from 1 to 3. Not too many pure 1s in there; probably several 1.5s though. At $1 each, I will take a loss on them for sure, but I don't mind getting 40 or 50 bucks for them or whatever it ends up being rather than throwing them away. With 57s as hot as they have been, I think you can convert even bad ones to a little bit of cash.

As a friend once told me, everything will sell of a price.

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