Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction
 

Another day, another significant allegation about altered cards, this time SGC graded CJs in the current Heritage among others. Including an SGC 9 1915 Walter Johnson allegedly "improved" from a 5. As always, form your own judgments.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

Have we reached a point to where the grading companies are just Guessing ????

For me, that’s been the real question for awhile now. Are the TPGs incompetent or are the corrupt, giving higher grades and ignoring altered cards for preferred/ high volume submitters?

That may have happened long ago. We just didn't know it.

I can't believe someone would work on a CJ graded a 5 or 8.5. That's having
confidence in your work and no respect for the grading company.

Interesting that the OP can trace this down to original submission numbers.
Good thing SGC uses random cert#'s now.

This is disgraceful. Perhaps it is time for the Heritage Rep (Pete) to come onboard here and have a frank discussion. We need to know what Heritage is doing specifically to combat this ongoing fraud. Are they confronting their dirty consignors at all? If so, what are the consequences? Who (if anyone) have they blacklisted? Heritage's track record has been to turn a blind eye and let these fraudulent auctions run their course.

Heritage is very adept at hyping their own auctions and promoting their wares. No hesitancy there. Now it's time they use their advanced communication skills to explain how these altered/numerically graded cards keep showing up in their auctions.

If we are complacent about this, it will only continue to get even worse. Any collector who cares about the hobby should be bombarding Heritage with calls and concerns. Otherwise, if collectors are too blinded by greed to recognize the massive failure of the TPGs, I suppose they'll get what they deserve.

Just my two cents.

That's my first thought to. These cards were already high-end.

I'm always skeptical when one of these threads pop up. Mostly because I don't want to believe this is as pervasive as it is. Then I look at the evidence shown, and almost every time it's a no doubter.

It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders. :rolleyes:

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.

Sure, there was plenty of trimming and re-coloring going on then by raw card sellers. Hell, I think re-colored 1971 Topps have been around since 1972, LOL! ......But it was almost always sloppy as sh*t, and easy to spot from a mile away.

Sad it's come to this. Those cards were beautiful already.

You build a better mouse trap, they build a better mouse.

They don't exist now either. Not in their natural state, anyway. :rolleyes:

I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

Too many high dollar collectors have waaaaaaaay too many of these cards in their collections for it to go any other way.

I mean, if we can sell NFT's to the general public..........why not "card art and restoration"?

"I turned my 5 into a 10", will be flouted openly among "market traders".......and likely sooner then most people think.

:(

We are at a Point Where People Spending Big Money on these Cards in Auctions DO NOT CARE HOW MUCH WORK HAS BEEN DONE ON THE CARD AS LONG AS IT'S IN A PSA OR SGC HOLDER WITH A NUMERICAL GRADE, THAT"S ALL THAT MATTERS.

SADLY ZERO IS GOING TO CHANGE, OTHER THEN RECORD HIGH SALES.

To be fair. They exist. They just happened to find the fountain of youth at some point between 1985 and 2021.

A little nip here.......a little tuck there..........presto, bingo, you're a Super Model now. :)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/65/33...aa75bd29bb.gif

https://www.smalltraditions.com/Item...33662a_lg.jpeg


https://i.imgur.com/3DthTCK.gif

https://beckett-www.s3.amazonaws.com...r-2018-600.jpg

https://64.media.tumblr.com/dfcef14c...39d320673.gifv

Pretty good hypothesis, and definitely a possibility. Not much difference between a virtual image and an enhanced one.

I suppose if it really goes that route, the TPGs will pretty much be rendered as useless and obsolete. The grade of "A" will be the same as "10". And in many cases, it already is!

I think it is already in existence. I do not remember if it was posted here or a different forum, but there are groups on facebook where card fixers get together to share advice on how to restore cards. Maybe it was here. I don't know if these groups go as far as being considered buyers clubs, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Especially if the grading companies continue to accept the restored cards and people are making money off of it.

But there will always be purists in cards that do not believe that anything should be altered or restored. Same as with anything. Such as for years we are always hearing about the purists of baseball hating on this rule or that rule or players flipping bats or celebrating. It is just part of life.

We are at a crossroads in this hobby - stop buying the high end nice stuff, or go ahead buy it and beware. I am having trouble wanting to buy the lower than "EX 5" stuff as that has always been my bottom line, but then the higher stuff could be doctored, ugh. And with todays ultra high prices, do I dare go after higher stuff anyway? Do I just keep what I have in vintage sports, call it good, and dabble in 1977 Star Wars cards and new Pokemon and the like for the rest of my collecting life?

And then I am hearing about buyers opening boxes in the mail from sellers and claiming nothing inside - or so they say, and demanding refunds. ebay always sides with the buyer. Makes me scared to even sell stuff anymore.

At this Point the grading companies serve one purpose, to facilitate a higher sale...end of discussion that's all that matters.

I like my CJ's "dirty", 100+ year old cards just don't look right when graded a 9.
-

I remember when purists used to think that autographs on cards lowered values on the cards and PSA 10 might be only double the raw price. Doesn't seem that way anymore.

Things will change and evolve.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

It has nothing to do with purity. It has everything to do with fraud and nondisclosure. If it's so acceptable, why doesn't anyone disclose it? QED.

Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change

Right, nobody is going to come out and say I trimmed this card or removed creases or added color, which to me proves that all the talk about how it's acceptable in the hobby now is a crock.

If it was so acceptable there would be no need for deception.

"Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change"


Then why even have grading? If an A is the same thing as a 10 (and it's deemed ok to transform any card into a 10), then where is the need for a TPG?

And why is the valuation of a card graded "10" any higher than the one graded "A"? :confused:

That logic would dictate that the prices realized should be about the same for each.

One of the ones in the BODA thread is that someone tinkered with a $100,000K PSA 8 CJ Joe Jackson !!! and got an SGC 9/96 out of it.... What a tragedy (and what nerve).... I wonder if he cracked it... sharpened it and then resubmitted to PSA (without payoff) before settling for the SGC 96/9 (and a mere $26K profit)
The guy must have the steady hands of a Mohel* to even try this.


* The man who performs circumcisions in Jewish tradition.

So will 'brissing' a card become a thing? They could put 'brissed' on the label. Would it be possible to attend a brit milah for cards?

Sadly the only purpose TPA have is to make your cards worth more not to determine if your card is altered or not. It's their opinion that matter's when bringing the most money to cards, it's just the way it is, nothing is going to change.

Obvious nobody involved cares. These are not passable trim jobs. I've spent the last year buying higher end cards in lower grades because authentic/unaltered 5 or 6's are going to become the premium if this continues. No evidence to suggest that any end is near. FAT BORDERS or BUST!

My gut feel is that the new NFTs are going to ultimately replace cards, i.e new cards will not be released anymore, but NFTs will be released instead. This will ultimately mean no more new cards to trim, and it will greatly diminish the need for TPGs in the future. Unfortunately, we still have to deal with trimmed cards from the past.

I'm a vintage person, and I personally do not buy any card graded higher than a 4 or a 5. My rationale is really basic.....What was the highest graded Cobb in the Lucky 7 find? These cards supposedly were purchased and than stored in a bag all these years untouched, and the highest grade I believe was a 4.5. So I personally find it hard to believe that any card graded higher than a 5 or so from back than wasn't doctored to some degree.

I love this stuff, too bad that the back up at the opinion sellers is so long. Did one of them double their rates to cut down on submissions? Good for them, same money for half the work, I need to double my own salary in my next tour budget.

Hahahaha, you graded guys all deserve what you get.

The opinion sellers are laughing at you all on their way to the bank.

Doug "correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the first paid opinion wrong?" Goodman

Your post is spot on. I always try to buy the best card of whatever I'm buying. Seems that the best cards are probably just raw.

I just find it incredible that a supposed professional grading company could, in this day and age, receive ANY prewar card with super sharp corners for grading and not immediately suspect trimming.

I suspect the great majority of these altered card are altered by methods that CAN be scientifically detected. Assuming this is the case, then it seems inevitable to me that it is just a matter of time before a TPG emerges that grades cards scientifically. By that I mean that besides the usual subjective assessment of aesthetic appearance, there will be a scientific component that uses certain objective scientific criteria (e.g., presence of foreign dyes, chemical differences between newly trimmed borders and borders that have been exposed to the environment for over 100 years) that will make the conclusion the card has been altered a scientific fact, as opposed to a mere opinion. Once we get to that stage, I simply don't see how a card that has been shown by that method to be altered can hold its value.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone is out there now working on just such a model. True it will take millions in startup capital to build such a startup, which capital will include the need to to buy slabbed high condition cards and expose them to be altered. And true it will take a market willingness to pay the hefty grading fees such a startup would need to charge in order to be profitable. But inasmuch as we are already well into 7-figure territory for desirable sports cards, what is spending an additional 4 or 5-figure cost to ensure the card is what it is represented to be? The economic impact of that to the purchaser would be the equivalent of the BP being raised by less than one point.

And here might be the kicker. If, as has been speculated, much of the recent price rise is being fueled by funds regarding sport cards as investment vehicles and marketing them as such, then I would think in time such funds will put themselves at risk of violating their fiduciary obligation to their clients if they do not require that their sport card acquisitions be vetted by such a high tech grading method.

As to the point that there will be insufficient demand for such a high-tech grading service since what creates the demand for sports cards is the number on the slab (as opposed to the "real" condition of the card), that may be the case now. But I do not see how that mentality will be able to sustain the market once such a new TPG enters the scene and enough currently slabbed cards are shown to be altered.

What incentive do these grading companies have to actually discover these altered cards?

Doesn't PSA get a lot more attention if they have a 1915 CJ Joe Jackson in a PSA 9 than a PSA 4? They aren't going to research every card like the skilled guys over on blowout do. They have a 6 month backlog as it is - and they are grading a card ever 90 seconds.

It really is a shame - but until buyers stop paying up for altered cards it won't stop.

unreal
 

Huggins and Scott knows who bought them

SGC knows who graded them

Heritage knows who consigned them

Omerta is the rule of this hobby. As I've said many times, the unholy alliance among card doctors, TPGs and AHs.

Just for those of us not "in the know"... what the hell is Omerta?

Mafia Code of Silence.

I see the 1915 Tris Speaker 9.5 on the thread. I went to Heritage and blew the image up and can't see anything that looks obvious as alterations. But I'm no expert. Does anyone else see anything that looks off?

That's an interesting take on things.

I'm not sure what the state of the art is for coins , but they seem to have tightened up a lot on things that were common, like nearly 100% of shiny silver coins being technically cleaned.

With Stamps, the major expertizing groups have added grading, which is almost entirely based on centering.
I've met a couple people who do expertizing, and the depth of knowledge is amazing. But they also tend to only work in a fairly narrow field, like US between 1873 and 1890. Not that they don;t know a LOT about all the other areas, and even about many foreign stamps, but their primary area they get paid to work with is just that. (Some may work more generally, most of the information applies across many areas)

The first step for them is "is it a genuine stamp" followed by "which exact stamp is it?" any major flaws will allow a certificate saying it's real, but with noted flaws but no grade. They take their time, and apparently do compare notes between three different expertizers.
Very little of that is done with scientific equipment, but there are groups working that way. They just don't do expertizing (although members might)
They also take their time.

I had a couple stamps looked at during a "what's my stamp worth" type event at the international show in 2006. The explaining how to tell what they were took him longer than the identifying, which took literally a few seconds.
(I like done, had doubts about the other, and was pretty pleased to be right about both:D )
I've also sent in a couple, and the companies take their time so they get it right. One was probably easy, as it was one of the ones I took to the international, the other was a new discovery of a major variety, and the first of its kind expertized. Unlike PSA, they are totally ok with things that aren't cataloged yet in fact, getting a certificate may be necessary to get it cataloged. I included a copy of an article describing the variety, which probably helped. I haven't bought a new catalog in years, so I don't know if it ever got listed, or if I'd have to push a bit for a listing. (I had another discovery that was picked up on by a second tier catalog and listed. )

It's certainly possible to detect pretty much any alteration. But it does require knowing something about the item, and actually looking. Something the graders appear to actively avoid.

Thanks for the response Steve. What you describe appears to be materially different from PSA's business model, which is based on volume. I agree that many alterations that get by are detectable without scientific means, if graders took the time and had the expertise in the myriad of different card issues to detect alterations. But they don't, and the fact that PSA is for the time being not accepting new submissions until they clear up the backlog hardly gives one confidence this business model will be changing anytime soon.

And that is why the grading market is wide open IMO for a new type of company, one that should it come into being I simply don't see how in time cannot make obsolete the current model of grading.

If I wasn't hopelessly disorganized, I'd have given it a try a few years ago.

But I know that if I did I'd have a backlog with just a few cards, mostly because I'd get distracted to other stuff.

I'd also be more like the stamp places. A certificate with photo and a description of the flaws. I've tried to figure out how to have a slab that has a place to put an accompanying certificate, but I haven't really found anything that I think would work.
The closest I can get would be a sealed mylar holder a bit like a book, card sealed into one side, the cert in a pocket on the other.

Building out what people would probably want, a serious web site, with a database and high res scans and a workable registry would be way beyond what I could do.

The entire concept is completely subjective and ripe for problems. Congrats to people who love it and make money from it but this is one of several reasons I don't have any slabbed cards.
Just my .02

I've tried to figure out how to have a slab that has a place to put an accompanying certificate, but I haven't really found anything that I think would work.

How about a QR code on the back of the label.

That would work, but I'm so totally not a software guy. I've done all of 24 lines of modern code, and it took a long time.

I also prefer a hard copy cert, like this one.

https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...ictureid=25804

It clearly lets anyone know what they're getting. A genuine stamp with a particular variety, and a faked cancel. The large red stamp calling particular attention to an alteration is a fairly recent thing, and a good idea.

I think it could work!!

Do you think that soaking also falls into this category? There are many posts on this forum about soaking, or how to safely remove a card that is in a scrapbook or glued to something.

Is there a difference in whether or not a person is doing these things with the intention of selling it later?

I know nobody Cares But another CJ Joe Jackson was discovered on Blowout the other day from a 4 SGC to a 7 SGC...


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

Soaking is a somewhat contentious issue.
Given time, most old scrapbooks will damage the cards.

My wife and I are currently working on soaking a scrapbook of tradecards. A hobby where at least the pricing is similar to where baseball cards were 40 years ago. The pages made the cards brittle, and some have taken pretty serious damage.

There's always a fine line between preservation/conservation and altering.

That's also true in other hobbies.

The list keeps growing.

Yawn.:confused:

I guess Mr. Calderon, who clearly knows how to post here (see below), isn't going to this time.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=calderon

This!!! I too was a regular at cards shows in the late 80s and early 90s and you NEVER saw high-grade vintage. I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition. Same with a T206 card that was packed in a tight little box with cigarettes. After all, protective holders didn't come out until, what, the 70s or 80s?

Soaking is part of a long hobby tradition, and is the only way vast amounts of material stuck in scrapbooks could have been made available. And to the best of my knowledge it typically causes no harm.

I will post on his behalf...

We had all the cards reviewed by SGC and they feel they are graded accurately.

LOL.
Oh wait, maybe it's not so funny.
This hobby is a cluster fork.

1 - Why not, it's their fault.

2 - Kinda? Hahahaha.

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

It takes a massive amount of tolerance, ignorance or denial to buy cards like these after what has been uncovered. If the card is worth real money you almost have to assume it has been messed with.

15' cj's are in my opinion one of few vintage sets that are more likely to be found in high grade...due to these reasons you stated.

The albums had corner hinges I believe? I saw one in person in the 80's. No need to soak, or just kept them in a box.

The few of you who care really need to come around to the modern world. This is a great thing overall. We get these super high end white bordered Ty Cobb cards that didn't exist just a couple decades ago. Restoring cards is a great opportunity to make a LOT of cash with little to no education. The AHs get to make more more because of the higher prices on a PSA 8 that used to be a PSA 5.

As far as knowing the names, LOL seriously. When a longtime card doctor got called out on here for selling another member a altered card nobody said shit. People actually blamed PSA because of who the person was. If that isn't proof nobody cares nothing is.

Have a great day and remember it is all for the greater good of the hobby.:D

While those of you who know me know where I stand on all this, and I have dealt - first hand - with altered cards in slabs as an auction. I will say in general on the topic of how many more NM tobacco cards there are now then there were in the 80's, that's a bit misleading.

EVERY collectible dealt with the explosion of availability of what were thought to be unicorns in the advent of ebay and internet sales in general. Things like decanters, glassware like Fenton, and even to a degree things like books, stamps and coins suddenly were easily available. If you had to go to shows, flea markets and garage sales to add to your collection you could go crazy trying to find something that, as it turns out, was just scarce locally for some reason (or no real reason at all) The same goes for cards in general and high grade cards specifically.

I started doing shows when I was 14 and I remember in 1986 buying my first Goudey cards because they were the oldest things I had ever seen. On the local show circuit I honestly don't remember seeing ANY tobacco cards. I know I didn't buy my first T206's until Ebay came along.

Again do I think this explains even the majority of the high grade tobacco? No. But telling me something was scarce in the 1980's and easy to find now doesn't strike me as a great argument.

That's all well and good, but the fact is these cards are being trimmed on a wholesale scale...............so they literally did not exist in this "pristine" form in the 80's.

I wonder how many cards have actually been trimmed multiple times.

I see the term "crack & resubmit" thrown around on a regular basis.

Unfortunately "crack & trim & resubmit", has become the norm...........and probably has been for much longer then we care to admit.

Card doctors have been trimming cards since PSA came into existence........................I take it back...........they've been trimming cards since cards came into existence...........but they got really good at it, once PSA gave them a huge financial incentive, to get really good at it.

I respect your opinion and agree with most of what you said.

Yes, the internet created a centralized location to obtain and find things we were unable to before.

Those other types of items you mentioned, didn't become more common. They just became easier to find. Supply began to outstrip demand.

Demand, always outstripped supply, for high grade tobacco/candy/pre-war cards (particularly baseball). The internet era, while helping availability, also accelerated demand. With this demand, more high grade cards were "created".

When I say Hi-grade cards didn't "exist" in the 80's, I was of course guilty of hyperbole. No, this was not supposed to be an absolute statement.

The idea that there are certainly more (lots more) of them out there (which should be a mathematical impossibility), is not strictly anecdotal. It's backed up by literally 1000's (10's, 100's of 1000's ??), that have been exposed, and residing in TPG holders that show us that this card is more respected and higher graded, and with better eye appeal, then it was just a few short years ago.

I understand absolute statements make collectors who believe they are holding onto legitimate high grade cards from the past bristle, and I'm sorry for that. There are always exceptions to the rule.

It appears that Heritage gets a free pass with a lot of people. If this same thread was about pwcc the post count would be in the hundreds.

I don't know Pat, my impression is that people aren't even interested in PWCC any more. Hardly a word about their move to hiding bidder IDs, for example. Or about the complete lack of impact all the Blowout revelations have had on them.

Or that people posted the ESPN article quoting Jesse Craig and nobody responded back with "Salt of the Earth."

BTW, here are some of the outed trimmers that have booths at the NSCC this year, if it happens:
Johnny Adams Jr Booth Number: #632 #636
Buy Nice Cards.Com Booth Number : #560 Eric Bitz
PWCC Marketplace Booth Number : #2452 #2448 #2353 #2349 Betsy Huigens
Triple sSs Sportscard Booth Number : #525 #624 Mike Skerbe
Metro Sports Cards Booth Number : #2333 Brandon Taing

Some people buy old houses, fix them up, and resell them for a tidy profit. It's a win for everyone - someone gets to buy and live in a nice house, property values and aesthetic appeal increase in the neighborhood, tax revenues to the city go up on the higher value basis of the house, lots of tradesmen get paid to do the work, and material suppliers make money selling the stuff that goes into the renovation.

The house may still be marketed as "Early Victorian" or whatever, but it certainly isn't in original condition, and has been significantly altered and cleaned to improve its value.

I own a 1930 Model A Ford. Some people collect them in all original condition, others trick them up a bit. Mine for example is mostly original but has a custom made hardwood floor and some non-original parts. Car collectors can look at it and because of their expertise, they know what they are seeing.

I'm just wondering, having read a thousand or more mostly redundant complaints about card doctors, what is the point any more? Altered cards in this hobby are ubiquitous. Card doctors are apparently facing no adverse consequences. I see no lawsuits despite blowout's many, many examples.

I primarily collect game used flannels. Many otherwise nice shirts are out there with alterations. So, I do my homework, I've learned which AHs to trust and which to be very careful with, and which authenticators are good and which aren't (Dave Grob, incidentally, is hands-down my favorite.)

Rather than endless threads with people wringing their hands in angst over altered cards, at what point will it be universally understood that many many cards have been worked on, and that's simply become a major state of the hobby? If altered cards are a problem for someone, they have 3 choices: Learn how to avoid altered cards (knowing they cannot be sure all the time), stop collecting cards, or decide to live with the card hobby as it exists, and not stress about it.

Frankly, I think autographs are far more suspect than cards. With a vintage autograph, every single time, the first question is: Is it real? Generally there is not a definitive answer. Yet, many people collect autographs, accepting that dynamic. Seems to me, card collectors should likewise understand the same risk applies to cards.

Because the owner of the Victorian House and the Model A that have customizations or work done aren't representing them as all original? It's called fraud.

If there was honesty in the sale of these items, as in, all presented as ALTERED and labeled as such, I wouldn't have an issue. However MAIL FRAUD and WIRE FRAUD bother me. As do the damage done to the thousands of cards worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Owners PAY PSA, SGC, BGS, and the others hundreds of millions of dollars annually to ACCURATELY identify and label their cards. The fact that those companies (hysterically referred to as Third Party Graders) are incompetent doesn't make it okay.

It would be the same if they changed the VIN, rolled back the odometer, applied bondo to the body, and sold it as a 100% original single owner through Barrett Jackson. Just because everyone seems to be in on the scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.

Fine, I get it. Fraud is a bad thing. Does re-stating that sentiment, which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplish anything?

Let's see some lawsuits. Short of that, let's accept reality and decide, individually or collectively, how to deal with it. Conversations about new, technically advanced authentication is a good example for instance.

If your buddy gets mugged on his way home from work one day, is it productive for him to whine about it constantly? Or would it be best for him to do what he can to help get the mugger locked up, and then figure out how to move on with life.

Look, I totally agree with your post. Already.

Just shut up and do something about it, is a great way for nothing to ever get done about anything. It's essentially gaslighting. ;)

"Whining", as you put it, is a way of passing on information, keeping it in the public consciousness, letting others know what to avoid who don't know that these Cracker Jacks have been trimmed before they were sent to the TPG's.

Very little of any consequence has ever been done, without a great deal of "whining" and hand-wringing involved.

Imagine if your buddy in the scenario you gave, identified the mugger to the police, had plenty of evidence to back it up and nothing ever got done about it.

Then that mugger kept on robbing your buddy over and over and over again. Identified every time, and nothing is ever done. Short of your buddy going full vigilante, at what point does he shut up and just learn to live with his daily muggings?

At what point do you point your finger at your buddy, tell him to shut his big fat whiny mouth and go "Death Wish", or figure out some way to reform the police force in his locale, and everything systemically wrong with it.............but do it quietly and without disturbing anyone else's sleep, or forum reading habits?

Among the numerous issues I have with your post, although on a very minimal level I kind of get the point, nobody has ever bought a house that was certified to be in "brand new move in condition" only to walk in and find that the wall to the living room had been sliced off, without complaining about it.

Doug "can't think of a fitting witty nickname" Goodman

Hopefully at some point it will, and until then people like you who are ok with your cards being less than perfect as long as the opinion sellers say they are better can stop reading all those new threads.

Or, you can read those threads, then state your opposite of the thread sentiments, and have people like me re-state my sentiments over and over and over.

Doug "my middle name is Dick" Goodman

His thoughts and prayers are with the victims...

Doug "recently ordained" Goodman.

Your post is thoughtful and I see your point, but here's the distinction: In your analogy, victims are actually going to law enforcement repeatedly, with hard evidence. This is taking action, and if the police don't take it seriously, then action can be escalated to higher officials within the police or government, or to an attorney. Your example would in my opinion be very productive and appropriate.

All I'm saying, really, is this: If you're buying a house, car, or baseball card, look at it closely to know what you're getting. You can educate yourself to improve your chances of getting what you expect, you can decide not to buy, or you can buy on faith, take your chances and accept the outcome. I don't think this statement is controversial because it's the thought process we all go through.

I will readily admit you make a good point about spreading information; the work being done at blowout is definitely important - they are actually documenting evidence, and I do think spreading the word about their findings on this site has value in the sense that maybe somebody will recognize one or more of their high-end cards and finally decide to put together a legal case. Then, perhaps, this massive fraud might begin to be remedied. So in that, I admit there is some potential value in these types of threads.

But since it is abundantly evident that tens of thousands, maybe millions, of altered cards are out there, dealing with that reality seems to make more sense than just complaining about it ad nauseam. In this chat room, people are just conversing with each other, repeating the opinion that fraud is a bad thing, and being surprised/appalled/outraged anew with each new example.

And now I'll take advice I've given others - I will simply ignore these types of threads in the future. After reading dozens of them I pretty much know how they turn out... with people being even more frustrated than before, and little to nothing improving the situation.

This is silly. Understanding the obvious - that a bunch of cards have been altered - does not equate to condoning it.

Man, I've been (justly) accused of a lot of things, but "whining" I don't think has been one of them. Since I start many of these threads, Mark, it would be pretty easy to put me on ignore. Meanwhile, since all I have is a voice but no other power to change things, I'll keep "whining" I guess. :)

** Not to get too literary or self-aggrandizing about it, but the full quote from Auden is, "All I have is a voice to undo the folded lie." A brilliant line.

Whining was a poor choice of words and I apologize and I do think spreading the blowout evidence around has real value. Peter, you're one of the last people I would put on ignore as you make numerous good points.

Look, I share your frustration that nothing seems to change, and if anything it gets worse. Maybe it's just tilting at windmills and won't end up doing any good at all but it feels to me better than the alternative of just saying eff it.

Peter is a hobby legend thanks for the article

It’s a slow process Peter but keep it up. Are knowledgeable collectors more excited or less excited about the Leaf set before or after the blowout thread?
Unless I’m buying Ted Z’s personally pulled from the pack Leafs I really can’t trust the set anymore. Smart collectors listen to this stuff and will act accordingly. There will be a time when wide honest borders are more valuable than skinny sharp borders.

Because of the staggering legal expense to bring a lawsuit and see it through -- a proposition at the end of the day after all appeals have been exhausted easily well into six-figures and likely reaching seven figures -- unless and until slabbed altered cards stop holding their value, who will have the financial motivation to bring such an action? PSA would regard such a lawsuit as an existential threat given its contingent liabilities IMO materially exceed its net worth and the case would probably drag on for years. And even if someone brought such an action as a matter of principal, if PSA acted rationally they would quietly make good on the guaranty, resell the cards on the open market and then return to business as normal.

To me this means that in order for anything constructive to happen from the civil perspective, either a new TPG grading company as I described earlier in this thread needs to enter the fray, or the whining not only needs to continue but needs to escalate. Maybe then in time the press will begin to cover this other side of the hobby, and if so maybe enough trepidation will begin to set in among individuals and funds about whether slabbed cards will hold their value. Then maybe the demand for such cards will begin to fall, and the market forces necessary for such a lawsuit to be rationally and successfully brought will come into play.

A lot of maybes, I agree, but to quote Peter, "maybe it's just tilting at windmills and won't end up doing any good at all but it feels to me better than the alternative of just saying eff it."

If this can be done with such ease on CJ Cards that are over 100 years old imagine what is being done to all the modern cards. Ugh.... this probably isn't even scratching the surface.