Help with Authenticity - Ruth, Mantle, Mays
 

Hey Net54! I'm new to these parts, spend most of my baseball card forum time over at Blowout. I have an opportunity to purchase a pretty sweet collection. A large part of the value consists of a few cards I would really appreciate the expert opinions of this forum on regarding authenticity. I know the pictures included may not be extremely helpful, and I have the opportunity to get better pics but this is what I have currently. The cards I'm curious about are:

-1933 Goudey Sport Kings Babe Ruth
-1952 Topps Mays Rc
-1953 Mantle
-1956 Mantle

The seller has an SGC graded 1933 Goudey Gerhig, a nice BGS graded Gretzky RC and some other nice graded vintage cards so its plausible the above 4 cards are all authentic. I question the Sport Kings Ruth the most as I think that's the easiest to fake. FYI the seller has had this collection since the 90's and I'm confident he purchased all of them assuming they were authentic.

Thanks in advance for any guidance ya'll can give! I'm obviously super excited about the collection and the opportunity to own such iconic cards but I want to be as informed as I can and tread carefully.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4fcec0fbc8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...efccf4cef1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...0deb8babc9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...7e56669c33.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...30f109fa8e.jpg

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Fakes. Wrong stock.

Thanks, much appreciated. Do the other random raw cards included in the pics look good to you? I now have to question every single card in the collection with any significant value I guess. Which makes it very hard to navigate trying to buy the rest of the collection.

As far as I can tell the 2 biggest cards left in the collection are the Gretzky rookie and the Goudey Gerhig. Both are graded, are you confident in those from the pics? Also included is a mid grade Payton rookie which I feel good about - when the seller was buying that card probably wasn't worth faking.

Thanks for your time and knowledge.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ed2c7d11ef.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9c0a1f684c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ac9617b5c1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...60a563e23c.jpg

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How about this '52 Topps Eddie Mathews RC? Have these been widely faked or can I have more confidence in this one? The '57 Mays looks nice as well. Same question - how does this one look and are there a lot of counterfeits of this particular card out there?

Opinions welcome! Again, thanks for your time and knowledge to all contributors. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ef5785a710.jpg

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Graded Cards
 

..The graded cards can be examined in hand ? Do you know to look for "frosted" reseals ?..
..On the raw cards though , if a particular issue is never found centered but you are suddenly offered a fantastic group of centered ( but raw ) cards , from that issue , well that should send up a large oversized red-colored flag , one would think ??

..keep us posted though , since we all love these questions from new members.

..

Thanks for the response. Yes I can examine everything in hand including the graded cards. I'll do some research on frosted reseals. I will also remove the '52 Mathews from the screw down and get better pictures of it. I'm currently doing research on fakes so hopefully I'll have a decent knowledge base before I get there.

VERY good point on the centering, I should've thought of that. I've been in and out of the hobby since the mid '80's but never had much vintage.

Your insight is valued and appreciated, I'm getting a crash course right now and it's fun and exciting to do so.

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What city do you live in? If you're in the Florida Panhandle, I can probably meet you and review the cards in person. Others in other parts of the country may be able to as well.
I won't be buying, just verifying authenticity. (I'm mjohnatgt over on Blowout, FWIW)

Thanks for the offer, very generous! I'm in San Antonio, TX. If anyone is close and willing to help in any way maybe we can work something out.

I decided to start watching Breakout Cards YouTube collection to continue my education. Loving it.

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It's hard to tell with your pics and the fact the cards are in cubes, but to me the 52 Topps Mays looks way off.
Same, but not as bad, is the Mathews card.

Curious. Are those cards in recessed cubes or just flat surfaced cubes? If real, and depending on how tight the cubes were screwed down, and assuming they're real, they may only get an "A" if graded due to them being flattened/squished if the cubes are not recessed?

The 56 Mantle also looks suspect to me as well but I can offer no opinion on the others.

Good luck.

Thanks. I think they are flat surface cubes, and yes I've heard PSA especially gives a lot of these cards out of old screw downs A's because the card has been compressed and is now thinner than originally. Does SGC do this as well?

I'm assuming both Mantles, the Mays and the Ruth are fakes at this point. I'm curious on the Mathews, and will remove both the Mays and the Mathews from the screw downs and compare them. The surface feel, smell, card width. He has a few other low grade '52 commons I can compare the Mathews too as well.

It may be safest to assume all the authentic cards in screw downs will only grade A, but man that's a blow to any offer I give him and I want to be fair. Regardless, I'm having a blast trying to figure all this out!

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I don't know for sure, but I would assume?

Hopefully Mays and Mathews are real. Both look really nicely centered and that is hard to find, especially with the Mathews. Pricey card, as is Mays.

Sadly, looks like the person with that collection had more money than skill. Would have been best to stick to graded.

Most of the valuable ungraded looks very fake and bad fakes on some. The 52 Mays is godawful. The Ruth is absolutely fake, as is the 56 Mantle and 52 Mathews. The 53 Mantle is a maybe at best without a better pic as is Payton.

The graded look somewhat good by percentage, but there are a few that need a bit of closer examination. Unfortunately, I have very strong doubts on your Goudey Lou Gehrig not being a reseal, so much looks wrong with it. The graded sport kings look good as does the Gretzky.

It’s a very dangerous mix.

Not saying this is the case with your seller, but many times a scam artist will include a couple of authentic, lower valued, cards in the mix to throw you off on the authentication process. Look for all the obvious clues, coloring, format, etc.

If all seems ok, take a bright light and shine it through the back of the card for transparency - no light should come through in the 50s and earlier cards.

Then take a loop, or magnifying device that can magnify up to 100x. Use the loop, or device, and check the print dots on the card. Counterfeit operations, in most cases, cannot duplicate the printing methods of the 40s - 50s. Go on-line and read about modern print dots as compared to print dots in the 50s and earlier.

If it passes all these steps, and they probably won't, you can be about 50-65% sure they are real.

Hope this helps.

P.S. I always walk away from a deal if I find any counterfeits - one bad apple does spoil the bunch for me - unless it is someone that I've known a long time.

Thanks for the detailed examination. I'm bummed on the Mathews, guess I need to add that to the fake list. I will get detailed photos of all the presumed fakes just to put it to bed, and with all the other big ungraded cards looking like fakes I'm assuming the '53 Mantle is as well. Surprised on the Payton but with the trend on this collection I guess I shouldn't be.

The Gehrig breaks my heart that it's even a question. What in particular about it gives you such misgivings? I'll definitely take better pictures of it and will research the frosting/resealing possibility. The SGC slab was created in 2008 and the cert checks out, but obviously it would with a reseal.

I'm glad about the Gretzky. He's got the set, bought it as such. That may end up being by far the most valuable real card.

I feel like I'm wading through a waist deep swamp with gators all around!

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I'm definitely souring on the deal, but truly believe the seller is not a scammer. His avenue of buying was a mistake. PMed you some details, don't want to divulge any details on a public forum for the sellers privacy. I'm going to go in with as much knowledge as possible and just be honest with him.

I'll definitely get a loupe and a light and will start practicing, thanks for the direction.



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Several items draw curiosity, enough to give me pause. Those older sgc cases open very easily, I have opened one myself just with an accidental drop that separated perfectly. The left side does seem frosty from the photo. The card itself has what looks to be a very unnatural wear pattern, especially on the lower right. Goudeys are not a ultra crisp print, but it seems a little off. That could be the case, just can’t tell from the poor photo and glare. We need a good front and back scan as the back red bleed and text definition will tell plenty.

The 52 Topps Mays and Mathews look bad to me.

I will be going on a business trip to San Antonio this summer to visit the AF bases there, so I might be able to help. Although I'm sure there are a ton of board members that could meet you sooner.
You could also take them into a local trading card shop or show (many people here go to the Dallas show) and would inspect them for you in person for free. Sometimes the card graders will be at that show, and Beckett is headquartered in Dallas and could get your cards back same day.

I zoomed in off my initial photo, do these help? I do see what could be described as frosting on the top left of the slab. I'm also wondering what the black line could be on the bottom middle. I see what you mean about the unnatural corner wear. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...627b430498.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...51767fd03d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...18320333f2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...454d7adf5e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3349411ff4.jpg

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Not to sound mean, but you shouldn’t be buying any of these cards. It doesn’t seem like you have a ton of experience detecting fakes at this point, and the seller is either inexperienced or crooked as well. So, you have two people going in to a sale that have no idea. It may be worth just waiting a bit until you’ve got more experience.

This.

If there are counterfeits mixed in, the seller either (a) doesn't know what they're doing or (b) knows exactly what they're doing.

Either scenario is generally bad for a buyer.

You don't sound mean, and normally I would've referred this collection to a friend locally. However, I am at a point that I need to generate income for my family and if I can navigate this correctly I'm confident I can do so. I've been a residential realtor for 17 years, and I haven't sold a house in 2023. I've sold off most of my own collection to pay bills. I'm confident I can do right by the seller, whom I'm convinced is innocent and ignorant of what he has/doesn't have regarding authenticity.

I was astute enough to come here and ask for help when I realized I was in over my head, and you guys have been immensely helpful. This forum is legendary in the card world, and yall haven't disappointed.

I watch Ken Burns Baseball every year before opening day. I love baseball, it's magical to me. My favorite movie is Field of Dreams.

I freely admit I'm in over my head, and I'll probably make an offer on the collection sans any big ungraded cards. The Gehrig is still a question mark but I'll figure it out.

Sometimes life circumstances call for riding out into the unknown, into danger on the frontier. This is one of those times for me and I'm determined to thrive in it, though I may bleed some along the way. Thanks for looking out regardless. I mean that.

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This is a common sense, conservative strategy to make sure one doesn't get burned absolutely. If the seller won't allow me to buy just the cards I'm comfortable with I will walk away. He's giving me every opportunity to figure out what I'm comfortable with which gives me confidence I can figure it out with enough determination. Cheers.

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Not that I use it but I would make payment with PayPal goods and services with a detailed list of cards and a very clear return policy. In this case cash is your worst enemy.

I think you need to have someone skilled look at that up close. Difficult with the photo quality for me to make a definite call personally. Any frosting at all would be bad, remember it’s just superglue and just takes a couple dabs to get it closed. Sgc cases won’t frost the entire sides when popped on those old ones because they are not sealed in the same way as psa.

Take up one of the offers from a local member to check or maybe a good auction house like heritage could look at the Dallas Show. I wouldn’t use the local card shop check personally unless they specialize in vintage. Most local card shops know less than my wife on this and just know modern and Pokémon.

Fair enough. Two key things to keep in mind when buying vintage. First, can you tell how the card has aged? For example, cards aren’t going to have uniformly round corners from age. Corners generally just don’t round. You also are unlikely to get something that is completely stained but otherwise immaculate. Second, can you figure out why a particular card isn’t graded? I’m not exactly a graded card collector myself but it’s atypical for a collector that has graded cards (ie, the person you are buying from) to have Mantles in that condition that aren’t graded if real.

I’ll second what another poster said about SGC slabs. I had a $2,000 card fall out on my floor once and there was no visible frosting on the slab after—the card was legit and fortunately wasn’t damaged so no concern. But just something to keep in mind regarding their slabs, which could theoretically be resealed after….

I’ve got a PSA slab I have to try resealing just to see…

Go to SportsCards Plus in San Antonio at 2251 Lockhill Selma 78230. Check their web site for hours. Ask to see Charlie DiPietro the owner and ask him to take a look at the cards and tell you if he thinks they are legit. Best to have any of the ungraded cards out of any current plastic tombs when you go

John— if you get to San Antonio would be happy to buy you lunch if we are in town.

I didn't know how easy those old SGC slabs were to split and reseal, thanks. Unless I can get someone with the expertise necessary to look at that Gehrig I'm going to have to just stay away unfortunately.

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These are all very good questions to ask and very good points. When you say it like that it seems obvious the Mantles, Mays and Ruth are out of place and suspect. I'll ask the seller some questions, but am leaning toward just putting anything suspect aside and trying to make a deal for the low to mid priced stuff he has. He has enough of that to keep me busy for awhile without including the big hitters.

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I know Charlie, but didn't know he was a vintage expert. Thanks for the heads up. I'll drop by SCP in the next few days and show him the pics, I've got to go get some supplies anyway. Obviously he needs to see the cards outside the tombs as you say to make an informed determination but it'll go over better with the seller if I can tell him I've already spoken to Charlie in person and he is willing to take a look. Appreciated!

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I do not know if Charlie will be comfortable giving an opinion based on just pictures. I would not. I assumed you would be taking the cards themselves.

His shop is predominantly basketball because as you are aware that is San Antonio’s only major sport, but he has always had some inventory of older baseball cards and I have on occasion shared some of my Topps items with him

He is not always there. He has a son who often works the store. He may have some baseball expertise as well but am not sure

I realize just bringing pictures isn't helpful, otherwise we could've collectively figured this out already. I just want to stop by with pictures to begin the conversation and to be able to tell the seller the expert has told me he needs to see the cards themselves.

Sports Cards Plus is built on unopened wax. They move really big volume, probably one of the biggest sellers of wax to the end user in the country as far as card shops go. I've always gotten the impression that singles aren't a focus, though they do have a decent selection in their display cases.

Jeff, his son, is knowledgeable in a lot of ways but I wouldn't say he has much experience in vintage as far as I know. Regardless, it's worth a trip for me to go over there and at least have a conversation, maybe Charlie has more expertise than I assumed. Appreciated.

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Will let you know when I make plans to visit. My Wing at Eglin has two units at Lackland, and the Personnel Center is at Randolph. Now that I'm a hiring manager for AF Civilians, I figured it would be good to take a visit and introduce myself, if that would help anything.

The strategy to which I made reference is different than what you mention here. You're talking about comfort level. I'm talking about counterfeits.

A fake card is fake, regardless of one's comfort level. If someone is trying to sell a fake, and I've identified the card as fake, I won't deal with them.

Period.

What if I'm convinced he has no idea if what he has is fake or not? That he has probably never even considered the possibility? I won't go into details for his privacy but this isn't your average scummy fake card seller cruising into the card shop smelling like cigarettes and all sped up and whatnot.

I get what you're saying, as others here have mentioned. You've learned from experience to draw that hard line when counterfeits appear. Perhaps I'm being naive in thinking I can navigate this whole thing and all you guys are just shaking your heads with the knowledge I'm going to come back with a sob story at some point. Your collective experiences are pointing to me running quickly away from this as far and fast as I can. I get it.

But I'll never learn if I don't take risks, and me passing on the cards in question if it comes down to it and acquiring the rest of the collection at good value seems like a good, measured risk to me.

Will I find more fakes in the piece of the collection I buy? Likely. But if I account for this likelihood in the deal itself I shouldn't get hurt too bad in the grand scheme of things. At least this is what I'm telling my naive, inexperienced self!

Regardless, I appreciate everyone's efforts in attempting to guide me. I am listening and internalizing.

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I agree with you. Should have mentioned earlier that you can make the determination yourself if you read the articles in the "Net54 Baseball Archive Center" image link above.
One of my best purchases at a card show in Pensacola was a signed 1933 Goudey that the seller didn't even realize was autographed until I pointed it out. He also had some counterfeit T206 cards that were cut out of the Dover reprint guide. I told him those were counterfeit, and he apologized for his ignorance and destroyed the fakes in front of me. I then bought the Goudey. His other stuff was all correct, he just didn't think someone would have fake T206s in such poor shape (trimmed/creased) in a collection he bought.

Hey Gents,

So I bought the collection sans the Mantles, Ruth, '52 Mays and Mathews and the Killebrew RC. I ended up buying a loup with an LED light and black light and learned what to look for. But once I got to the sellers place and got my hands on the cards above I was convinced pretty immediately they were counterfeits. I showed him the print dot differences, glow under the black light and the difference in the feel of the cards and he agreed with me.

I bought the Goudey Gehrig with a guarantee of money back if proved fake, and took the card to the local card shop. The owner felt good about it.

Thanks for all the help! I'm planning on hanging around these boards and soaking in knowledge for many years to come.

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Heck of a find of sports kings
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn...75.m3561.l2562

Yeah, thanks. The seller had a nice Sport Kings Collection and the other main attraction was a full 1991 Topps Desert Shield set. I'm proud to own the Gehrig, and the Gretzky RC looks undergraded at a 7 but the surface grade of a 6 pulled it down. Looks like "snowing" on the surface, is that right?

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In other news, I negotiated for over 300 old beer cans from the same seller. Hah! He said they were mainly from the 70s, and most of them he drilled holes in the bottom to keep the top pristine. I need to go through them, don't know what I've got there.

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I’ll just make one post because it’s off-topic - Morean auctions is A good place to check for a quick vague education in beer cans , 70s collections not what you wanna hear but it just takes one can , also beer cans had the same crazy jump as baseball cards during Covid
https://www.moreanauctions.com/catalog.aspx