Who is the greatest player of the Pre-War Era?
Sorry..trying this again.
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Cy Young
Purely for the sake of argument, I was going to say Cy Young, and went to baseball reference to find a stat to back up my claim. This was the first stat I looked at, the all-time WAR stat (Wins against replacement), it does not support my argument, but almost did.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...R_career.shtml |
Thanks for the early votes, everybody. I am going to give this a few bumps to push it past the earlier thread...which did not include the poll.
My apologies for those who posted there. I tried to get the poll linked onto this thread. For some reason, it did not take. Best, Eric |
cobb
greatest player if we're talkin' stats and nothing else.
all the best, barry |
No Aaron?
Hammerin' Hank missed the list? :)
Even if you take away ALL of his homers, he still has over 3000 hits! Not sure if he's the best (I voted Ruth), but Hank needs to be considered IMHO. |
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Please accept my sincerest thanks for you weighing in here. Best Regards, Eric |
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Agreed...Aaron was one helluva a ballplayer. Best, Eric |
Ruth is a no doubter in my mind, no one ever single handedly changed the game like he did... maybe in any sport? Wilt Chamberlain maybe close? The pitching record and WS pitching records are just icing on the cake. Cobb 1a by himself.. then other top 10-20 types like Wagner, Mays (maybe best 5 tooler ever), WaJo, Matty, Hornsby, Williams, Musial, Speaker, E Collins, Aaron, Bonds, etc in a 2 category (2nd tier not in any particular order, and not complete in any way)
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What always struck me about Ruth was when he was pitching, he had a fairly slender athletic body that was better suited for being an all around baseball player with base running and stealing in mind. Then when he became a hitter and switched to the outfield, his body turned into a slow, sloppy, overweight pitcher's body. That extra weight did probably help with power behind his swing, but I just wonder how good he could have been had he possessed the body and speed to be an all around ball player like Cobb and Wagner. Hmmm....
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Ruth
We all know all about Ruth hitting a few homers, having a .342 lifetime average, a couple other things at the plate, all of which make him a candidate, based on hitting.
When you add in his 2.28 lifetime ERA with 97 pitching victories, including his 3-0 record in the World Series (with one of those WS wins being a 14 inning complete game), are we really still thinking about anybody else? Doug |
I'd vote but I don't see Sammy Sosa on the list. My God, people, he and McGwire saved baseball!
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I am going to have to go with Willie Mays!! I was going to say Mantle....but I am biased now that I own his ''rookie'' card...lolllll!!!
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Okay, I'll come clean. I vote for me twice under 'None of the Above.'
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What? No Sadaharu Oh? :D
As much as I love Cobb's tenacity and approach to the game, I gotta give this one to the Babe. |
I hate voting for a Yankee, but gotta be Ruth.
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George Herman by a mile
Honus is for me number 2 |
I would say Willie Mays.
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Frank Baker made the cut, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron didn't. Hmmm....
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Mantle played hurt most of his career and still put up awesome numbers. Can you imagine what he would have done had he actually been healthy?
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Ruth
It's too hard to argue with Ruth as a player and his impact on the game. I didn't see any mention of Rose who was the most dynamic player I ever saw play. I very unfortunately had to live Portsmouth Ohio for a few years as a kid and though I wasn't a Red's fan(having moved from Illinois) it was hard to overlook his superiority on the field. I really enjoyed watching him play. Nolan Ryan was another beast of a player that when you watched him perform live just seemed to control the game.
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Let us not forget The Say Hey Kid. Remember, he spent some time in the Army!!
I believe he would have made the 700 club if not for the time in the Army. |
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I took my Pre-War starting nine, added, "none of the above" as the tenth choice, and posted the thread...nothing more, nothing less. Anyway, it seems pretty clear...that George Herman Ruth fellow would be crushing the competition, no matter who it was. Thanks for weighing in and have a wonderful weekend. Best Regards, Eric |
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:) |
Well I read that Branch Rickey who saw all the great ones play up to and including Aaron Mays Mantle Williams Musial said that if he was starting a team
the first player he would pick was Wagner |
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I am extremely surprised, more or less dissappointed with this 'list'.
You have Hornsby (not even close to top 10), same for Jackson, Baker isn't even top 30, Josh Gibson (come on), and no Bonds, or Mays?...interesting...is this like the greatest pre-war player of all-time? If so, then your list is justified. |
Well, there's really not much doubt in my mind that it's Ruth. Over the years, I've found the primary reasons some people disagree with this is:
As far as the best pitcher ever, I personally go with Cy Young. People seem to discount him for some reason, but when you look at his numbers, they're just incredible. I'm sure Walter Johnson was a great pitcher, but in a direct comparison, Cy Young has got to be the pick. |
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Why is Frank Baker even on the ballot?:confused:
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Babe Ruth did a grave disservice to the game by making this argument not even close...it is only even an interesting argument if you either introduce a caveat that the game was for some reason different in that day...no air travel, no black/international players...or you completely disregard that he had several years at a hall of fame pace as a pitcher before becoming a revolutionary hitter.
Maybe the best thing about him is that he also had a couple of off seasons and failures on and off the field. Fully a superstar and fully human at the same time. |
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Anyways, carry on. And have a great weekend. |
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Babe Ruth ftw
Anyone who smoked too much, drank too much, partied too much and rarely, if ever, worked out and could still put up the numbers Ruth did deserves the honour! :D
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I'll go with the BBWAA who voted for the first class of HOF'ers in 1936. This was right after Ruth's career and since everyone hated Cobb (according to current belief, though he helped a lot of players with fiancial problems). The top 3 vote getters from the 226 writers were : 1) Cobb 222, 2) Ruth 215 and 3) Wagner 215. These voters were from the same era. Hard to believe with Cobb's reputation, he still received the most votes. He must have been "one hell of a player ". He gets my vote.
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My vote : Ruth
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I'm still Babe all the way regardless of the original baseball writers vote. At the time of his HOF induction, I think there must still have been quite a few crotchety old school sports writers/purists who'd grown up on dead ball era and tactics.. and who preferred the "science" of Cobb's game as opposed to the brawn of Ruth's. Babe only won 1 MVP during his career, which is nuts considering he lead the league in HR's and had 13 wins in the same year, and broke the single season HR record 4 times in his career!! (worth noting Cobb only won 1 MVP too). In 1936, baseball had still been a dead ball game for the majority of its history, and what Ruth had done was probably still unsettling to some. As years/decades/eras have gone by since, we see even more clearly that Ruth is the greatest vehicle of change the game has ever seen (except maybe J Robinson for totally different reasons).. and it's greatest/most influential player ever. Cobb is still my untied 1a. |
For those people who say Young is the best fail to realize that not even his peers / baseball voters thought he was that good with receiving 76% in the HOF vote. If you throw out Young's 511 wins (which he pitched the most innings / started the most games and completed the most games) he wasn't better than Matty or Johnson of that era. He averaged 111 k's per season (I realize it's the dead ball era), but he never had more than 210 which Johnson topping 300 twice. Johnson pitched for a far worse team and had a lower era / more shut outs / more k's / over 2,000 less hits allowed. He is the Pete Rose of the dead ball era of someone that was good, but his numbers are more of a factor that he pitched more than anyone, than the fact that he was dominate.
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He also pitched for better teams than Johnson did. |
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% of ballots on first ever HOF vote in 1936:
Cobb 98.2% Ruth 95.1% Wagner 95.1% Matty 90.7% WoJo 83.6% Today, many say Ruth is the clear-cut best ever. 80 years ago, the voters didn't see it that way. |
Again, I must ask, why in the world is Homerun Baker listed in the poll? For that matter, if there were 50 players listed, why would he be one of them??
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wins against replacement list
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153 Andruw Jones 154 Frank Baker 155 David Cone 156 Joe Jackson |
I don't see how anyone could not answer Babe Ruth. It doesn't matter how the sports writers voted. There has only been one player in the history of the game to single handedly outhit an entire league. That player is Babe Ruth.
As talented and great as Cobb was, he didn't change the game. He only did things better than the players around him. But Ruth did change the game, and every player after him has been trying to live up to what he did. |
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I understand why he may seem out of place. As for answering your question, please see the posts below. Best Regards, Eric Quote:
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