As I See It...
 

...There are 2 kinds of people who post here on net54:

Investment brokers

Card collectors/hobbyists

Why not break the forum out that way? Create a forum called "Card Investments and Card Grading In General".

If that were done, I promise I would never again attempt to hijack threads or post obnoxious comments!

Every thread needs a card...
-

How much is that card worth and what has been your ROI so far? I mean that asset, not that card.

Yeah, exactly.

There are those that create click bait subject lines on purpose. :)

At any rate, I think I’m solidly in the collector camp since I know the random things I want and tend to overpay (according to vcp) for them. Hopefully eventually they catch up to what I paid but don’t particularly care I suppose. If they crash, yeah I would not be happy.

Hi James

I have no issues with the way it is done now.

I am a collector/ hobbyist but I like to get all perspectives

If it was split into 2 forums I would just be viewing to forums/sections.

Just as I look at other sections of this forum although many I am not collecting items but it is a good way to learn, get different ideas and perspectives

So either way works for me

My guess is that the overwhelming majority of people here are someplace on the spectrum between pure collector and pure investor, not at either extreme. The same is likely true of any hobby where items have nontrivial value.

+1 agree. Thinking about it I have seen many posts of people buy/ selling cards to finance their person collection and others that would do it if they can upgrade their collection

I think the percentage of investment brokers ““ on this site is tiny compared to collectors/combo.

New Forum Suggestions
 

Flipper 54

Flip of the Month Club

Out Flip This

SST - Steal, Sell & Trade

Prewar Flipping

Flipping The Monster

I think I just overreact against negativity about money concerns being the primarily focus of collectors. At the price of some of these great cards, money has to be looked at deeply for most folks even if it’s just for collecting. I’m trying to do low grade Goudey Ruths to add to my small stable of Goudey hall of famers. At 7k a pop money concerns and perceived value just have to be a part of it for me. If anyone is willing to sell me one at 2010 prices with the commitment that I can never sell them while alive I would probably hop on board but until someone steps up and sells their cards for pre-craze prices I’m going to react negatively against the money grumbling I guess. My apologies if I sound too grumpy.

Running threads

Your best ROI?
Your most profitable trade?
Which investor do you model your card purchases/sales on?
Underrated investment players
Which is the better investment, vintage or modern?

I think you’re spot on. Everyone has different interests, backgrounds, and different resources at their disposal. It would be naive to pretend we’re living in the days of 5c packs going straight into our bicycle spokes, but at the same time many/most of us want the simplicity of cards in hand, rather than digital tokens or unduly complex investment schemes.

Well, if I am overruled or in the minority, so be it. I got yelled at occasionally by even Captains and Admirals in the Navy. I'm a big boy and won't go to pieces. I guess the next alternative, if the investments outweigh simply collecting cards and the great, enlightening discussions, is (as has been suggested on multiple occasions in other threads) to ignore the sportscard investment BS threads. And not attempt to hijack threads or post obnoxious comments.

Not obnoxious by any stretch and worth discussing.

I’m in the ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ camp, and I like seeing both sides of the hobby. And my opinion, which is worth the paper it’s printed on, is that when the next correction comes, it will drive a lot of the investors out of the hobby. Not all, but enough to put a damper on the investment chatter.

Right…if the OP hopes to be considered “obnoxious” by internet standards, he’s got a LONG way to go! :D

What is the most expensive card you have fractional ownership of?
Which card that you have fractional ownership of is your most valuable?
Most flips you have done in a day?
What's your favorite NFT?
What percentage of your portfolio was paid for by crypto?

SST was funny. Good work.

On the flip side (see what I did there?) at least people are no longer complaining about the number of T206 threads...

As Peter already said, I think you'll find the majority of people on here are somewhere in the middle of that collector-investor spectrum or arc. Even though a lot of people on here, especially us older folk, mostly started out as true collectors, with the accumulation of cards we've acquired and held on to over many years, coupled with the appreciation in the value of those cards (especially over the past couple of years), a lot of these collections have come to be way more in value today than many of us could have ever dreamed. I know that for a fact in my own case. When I started out collecting vintage 20-30 years ago, I figured one day I might have a few thousand dollars worth of cards in a collection, but that was it. But with the way prices and values have jumped and grown, along with picking up more and more cards as the years went by, my few thousand dollar expectation has turned into a six figure collection reality. I don't really sell or trade anything, so I'm not looking to flip cards and still am a collector, but sitting on a collection with a value in six figures, I can't ignore that fact and have to think about it as retirement looms and things regarding our economy are constantly changing around us. To not consider my collection as an asset/investment now is just shortsighted and downright foolish. And have to believe the same may hold true for a lot of other people on here now.

I was never a good drug dealer when I was a kid, I consumed more product than I sold which made it an unprofitable enterprise, same with cards, I'm a collector trying to support my habit. The payoff is after I'm gone and my kids discover they have a valuable asset on their hands. In the meantime I have a lot of fun building my collection and supporting others on this sub with theirs.

With all this talk of fractional ownership of cards, here's a thought/question. What if the current owner of the Gretzky Wagner (is it still Kendrick?) decided to sell it and it ended up being purchased by a publicly traded company, for whatever reason. Would any of you ever consider then going out and buying some stock in that company, because doing so would then technically make you a partial owner of that Greztky Wagner (or whatever famous card it is that you'd like to own, but can't afford on your own)?

If you answer no, then you probably shouldn't ever consider something like is being suggested in regards to investing with others just so you can own a fractional share of a particular card. It is technically the same thing in both instances.

I don't want a fractional anything but it's not really the same, presumably the Gretzky Wagner would be a much more material part of a card syndicate's portfolio than it would be of a publicly traded corporation's assets, plus an individual is going to own a much larger share of the syndicate than the public corp, and therefore in the former you might expect to profit from it but not in the latter.

I wonder if card doctors are going to start keeping the material they trim away...and then call it fractional ownership.

On the other side of that, we all own the fractions they didn't trim.

Aaahhhh, Peter, now that is one difference I was trying to keep out of it, the investment side. If someone just truly wanted to own a piece of the Wagner, either way, the person buying into a corporate owner or a card syndicate owner would end up with what they wanted, an ownership piece of the Wagner card, right? Now if they wanted a bigger piece of it, they could always buy more stock in the corporation, or more units in the card syndicate. But I don't think there'd be much difference in such an owner's eyes between owning say .000001 or .00001 of something. At that level I think such a person would/should be happy to own any nominal interest in a card such as the Wagner, no matter how small.

But if you're talking about buying in as an investment and to make money, that was not the ownership aspect I was referring to. So hopefully then you'll agree that I'm right with my original statement if you take the investor from the conversation. But if you are looking at it from purely the investment side, I agree with you, you're probably better off if you can buy in through a card syndicate.

(And I also wouldn't want to own a fractional interest either way like that in any card, just like you.)

I don't think we're near the middle of that spectrum at all. I think the older collectors, the guys who've been collecting since before 1990, I think those folks are skewed way to hell near the limits of the collector extreme. I think that newer collectors may well be bunched near the middle, but on the collectors' side of it. And the investor guys (notwithstanding the possibility that some of them may well think they're collecting somewhat because they've held a card 18 months or so), those guys are in the minority here, and they're huddled over at the investor edge of the spectrum.

Just by this thread being started, that seems not thoughts of some middle ground thinker; but rather someone who's a collector annoyed with reading stuff by the quick flipper folks.

To respond to the original post, it reminds me of telling some kids to stay on one side of a fence and other kids to stay on the other side. This place here didn't start because card dealers and card investors wanted a public forum to discuss old ballcards. It was started by collectors. If you started up an alternate site for the investors to use, they couldn't stay on their side of the fence, they'd wander back here. So I like the sentiment i perceive from the original poster, but two sites wouldn't work.

(One last thought... if anyone thinks most of us are bunched in the middle of the spectrum, how are you ascertaining what the folks who seldom if ever post have in mind? I don't think they sit slightly out of sight of those of us who closely circle the Net54 campfire... sitting back there and reading about old ballcards. Who knows what those folks are thinking? My guress is they're not in the middle, I think they're wanting to learn about old ballcards.

Why would any COLLECTOR want to own a fraction of a card?

Well we could do a poll, but I think we'd need some clear definitions first.

LOL

So are you also asking me why would any collector want to own a fractional piece of a player's game used bat or jersey?

Heck, we've got people that collect infield dirt from ballpark's for cripessake. Some people will collect anything, even if you and I won't.

Well at least there you can possess the stupid thing and look at it, not own it in some abstract vehicle like a whatever the acronym here is. BIg difference between here son, look at this piece of Mickey Mantle's bat and here son look at my token reflecting I own a fractional share of a Mantle rookie.

Well I know where my heart is:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...us%20cards.jpg

but dropping 4 or 5 figures on a card is a decision that has a definite financial component for me, so I also know where my head has to be:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...a%20ticket.jpg

My wife thinks it is all

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ong%20jack.gif

Or to paraphrase Sam Kinison: there's women and money and cards...and religion if you can fit it in.

Hi Frank,

If you're referring to my post where I said I think many on here are somewhere in the middle of that collector-investor spectrum, you are taking my use of the word "middle" in my phrasing, too literally. That is exactly why I preceded that by also using the word "somewhere" in my phrasing. I actually agree with you in that the collectors are likely closer to the collector side of the spectrum, and the investors closer to the investor side, which is what I thought was coming across when I said most people were likely "somewhere in the middle of the collector-investor spectrum", meaning they were somewhere on that spectrum between just a collector, or just an investor, In other words, somewhere in the middle between the two extremes, but it doesn't mean they're all exactly halfway between the two sides and at the literal midpoint of the spectrum or arc.

It's another way of saying that in today's environment, it's going to be tough to find a collector on here that maybe doesn't also have at least a little bit of investor, or at least investor influence, affecting them, and ditto for investors. However, I would think you're more likely to find investors who care absolutely nothing for collecting, than you are to find collectors who care absolutely nothing for the investment aspect. Trust this clarifies things for you.

Peter,

I'm with you, but you know there will always be some people that will just want to be able to say they owned at least a piece of this card or that card at one time. Look how people on this forum often say they once owned this or that card or item that is being shown or talked about. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it does show those people most likely had some pride or satisfaction in once owning a particular card or item, and can still derive some pleasure or satisfaction, and even a connection, in being able to share that ownership experience with others.

Now are the majority of people doing something like this probably out there for the money, heck yeah! But it doesn't necessarily mean they all are, is all I'm thinking.

I can't say I've ever had the "pleasure" of being yelled at by an Admiral; so far it's only Captains and below I've managed to get on the wrong side of.

I am a collector, but there has to be a financial component to my collecting. If I didn't consider whether I could reasonably recoup my money if I had to sell, well then I'd have a lot more cards and a lot less money. If it all goes to zero tomorrow, I won't be the happiest person on the forum, but it's not the end of the world. And if my collection continues to appreciate, then I won't complain about that either.

I've said it a hundred times before and I'll say it again: I've collected something for 40+ years now and as much as I love the things I collect, I also can't not look at anything that I spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on as an investment.

Also, this hobby like everything else in the world will continue to evolve or it will die, nothing can or will stay the same forever. Sure we'd all like to go back to the days of buying $1 T206's or $50 Mantle's, but that is no longer reality and will never be reality as much as some people reminisce about "the good ol' days".
People may not like the way the hobby is evolving with constant talk of ROI, flipping for profit, investors over collectors, fractional shares of cards, etc., but IMO the hobby has never had more interest or been healthier than it is right now.

Just my two cents.

I agree...and for the record this forum, in this structure, is going on 13 yrs old. Like the old saying, if it isn't broke don't fix it.

https://luckeycards.com/n165x2.jpg

The only part where I would disagree, is that as a vintage collector, it's significantly more difficult to get into the Hobby now, then It was 20,30 years ago. When some Ruths, Gehrigs, Mantles, and Cobbs cost three paychecks, nowadays, it becomes difficult to rationalize the purchase. I do agree though, interest in our hobby is better than ever.

As one who started collecting in 1951 and saw the birth and collector joy to our gang of the new 1952 Topps, I am first, foremost and always will be, a collector. But at the same time, I am a wholesale seller to the AH's in order to upgrade the collection and be on the lookout for fresh opportunities. This, of course, has been more and more difficult as vintage card prices, for those cards I seek, has increased exponentially. Therefore, my current strategy is to downsize and increase the cash flow in order to upgrade the core collection while hoping to stumble upon chances to grab something on my revised, more realistic want list.
These days even hard core collectors have to run their card collection like a business; projected cash flows, target marketing, e.g. B/S/T, distribution, etc.
It ain't like it used to be.

Agreed. It's astonishing to me that cards I would but for X just two years ago are now in some cases 5X-10X-20X more expensive. And I can definitely see why this upsets the passive/old time collectors who can look past money spent on their collection. The same with new product, there is no "kids" hobby anymore with the majority of new boxes selling for $200-$2k+; but on the same hand I've never seen more kids at shows with hands full of hundred dollar bills either. It's definitely an interesting place the hobby is in right now.

It never is. Remember the doom and gloom, sky is falling forecasts over the early 1952 Mantle sales? The derision for the "Rolex guys" throwing money around as loudly as their Hawaiian shirts? Or the 'day traders' swapping 100-count boxes of 1989 UD Griffey cards at local shows in 1990? The "smoke detectors without batteries" (to quote Dennis Purdy from his infamous VCBC screed on PSA) derision when PSA started? The entire phrase "shiny crap" to crap on a decade of cards? In the 45 years I have been involved with the 'Hobby' there has been one 'the sky is falling/you kids get off my lawn' after another.

Change is hard and nowhere is it harder than when old fart collectors (including me!) have to adjust to new collecting instrumentalities, attitudes or cost structure. So is there an investment mentality now that never was there before? Hell yes, and there has to be for 99% of vintage collectors, or you are stuck collecting 1950-55 Callahan, 1960-61 Fleer, 1961 Golden Press, etc. I love all those sets (and for that matter, TCMA, Rowe, SSPC, etc.) but I am very happy I heavily collected vintage cards 30 years ago because I could never afford to do it now.

Okay, I finally see the light. I am officially a dinosaur. Rock and roll? Dead. Hot rods? Well on their way. Sex? When you're my age, keep on pretending. Card collecting? I GET IT! YEE HA!!! All you have to do is sell all the cards you once liked in order to raise capital to expend in the fractional ownership of the one card you always wanted, but now realise just ain't ever gonna happen, baby. Yeah, that's a swell hobby.

LOL....there are quite a few dinosaurs on this forum, me included. I don't see me owning a fractional anything, but to each their own.
I don't share my cards that well in the first place. So sharing a card wouldn't work for me.
As has been said, in today's age of high priced cards, they have to be an investment for most. I wouldn't spend the money I do if I thought the cards wouldn't be worth anything in the future. And most of the times the high end HOF'ers have done well over time.
Room for everyone in the hobby..

and a (movie) card..
.

I'll add a card to this discussion . . . .

https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...ictureid=32447

Was thinking LSST&LSM

Fractional ownership to me is like buying 1 share of Amazon stock.

I'm on the spectrum alright.

Very funny! I think most of us are.

I'm sure there are some folks here who are really into cards and never think of their value. I would suspect that those folks are either extraordinary wealthy and have amazing collections, the value of which is irrelevant to their life, or they collect what makes them happy and it's not of any great value. As stated above, most of us love our collections and would be happy if they continue to appreciate in value. (My kids will sell most of my cards someday. Why wouldn't I want them to increase in value?)