I guess this is goodbye
 

From Leon:

I am not letting your poll go right now because I just don't think I want it there at the moment. There is a mob mentality already and that further provokes it. You are more than welcome to leave the forum if you don't like the way it is run.
thanks

Ok.

So I PM you that there is a mob mentality going on and you start
a thread to do the same thing again. I am not even saying the mob is wrong but it is the ganging up that I don't care for. Everything will take its course. However, It feels like the tail is wagging the dog again and that just doesn't work for me any longer.
Good bye

I hope Paul doesn't leave. I assume he was not banned.

Nope, not banned.

Can always just agree he can put the poll up again in 30 days or an agreed time period.

That way the mob mentality excuse doesnt appear to be a fake excuse as it does appear you are fine with the poll, just not being put up right now

You are looking for a 'cooling off' period as it were but not refusing him putting up the poll forever...

This is correct. And I very much believe a poll won't be needed by the end of this month or sooner.

I am sure that even without a poll Leon understands how many of us feel on this topic. A number of us have posted. I do hope he will change his mind at some point and follow where PSA and even the allegedly conspiratorial VCP have gone by disassociating themselves.

However, in a month if T206 man wants to have his poll, you are fine with it.

Call me Boynton problem solver..

Yeap.

I don't know what the poll was, but I trust Leon's judgment that it wasn't adding a whole lot what has already been fleshed out here in great (and much necessary) detail. Great work by many.

I could imagine polls popping up like "Who deserves to go to jail first" kind of a thing. Gimmicky and maybe worth a small chuckle but not really moving the ball forward.

Annette chimes in
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne2yFQPYYmU

For those of you that cannot stomach the video.....

Chalk on the sidewalk
Writin' on the wall
Everybody knows it
I love Paul
Tall Paul, Tall Paul
Tall Paul, he's-a my all

Chalk on the sidewalk
'nitials on a tree
Ev'rybody knows it
Paul loves me
(Tall Paul) With the king-size arms
(Tall Paul) With the king-size charms
(Tall Paul) With the king-size kiss
He's my all!!
Tall Paul is my love,
Tall Paul is my dream

I really don't see what the big deal is. Is a banner ad really going to change anybody's opinion about PWCC at this point? It's advertising dollars for this site that keep it running. I see banner ads from businesses that I've made it a point not to do business with, but I don't complain about it.

If this doesn't convince you to stay, then I don't know what will

Yazoo-- Don't Go

If she could continue singing with No Doubt after breaking up with the bass player, I guess we can all stay on this board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR3Vdo5etCQ

David,

Every time I hear this song I think of the movie 'Tango & Cash'. Teri Hatcher as Sylvester Stallone's (Tango) sister beating on a drum to this song a la Sheila E.

Paul,

It would be a shame to have veterans like yourself leave the board.
While I encourage everyone to have a voice keep in mind that Leon has indeed given us a forum that is both tolerant and generous.

Besides I don't see you fitting in with the blowout crowd. :D
Hope you reconsider and we can all get along sooner than later.

Leon runs a good board. That doesn't mean one will agree with every of his, or anyone's decisions.

The ad does't particularly bother me, and I assume that ads are bought in advance for a duration (monthly?).

Ufta
 

#drama

I agree with The good Doctor.

#inLeonwetrust

#IstandwithLeon

It Doesnt matter what the poll regarding PWCCs banner ad comes back as, it's up to the forum owner plain and simple.

PWCC ad back on VCP.

I also want to wish Paul well and hope he takes a short break and then returns. His posts were always literate and well thought out.

I took a break for a couple of years, and when I returned I was welcomed back with a collective yawn. But the point is it's okay to return.:)

No cojones in this industry. A check can buy you anyone.

You will always be welcome here. I think probably one person yawned, then the rest followed suit, because we all know that yawning is contagious.

Brian

Thanks Brian. Actually I received a lot of nice responses on my return, but I tend to be self-deprecating.

Without wanting to violate the policy of not talking about politics, this whole discussion about whether Leon should take down the PWCC ad banner (and now, the implication that he has no cojones and has been bought) is another instance of the same, tired thing we see every day.

Person A looks at what person B is doing. Person A does not approve and suggests (asks, demands, protests, boycotts, whatever) that person B change their behavior. If person B feels enough pressure, he may end up doing so, even though it costs him revenue and may not be what he truly believes is right. Person A then pats himself on the back, for having superior principles, and for pressuring person B into doing the "right thing."

I have enjoyed this forum for many years now, and I do not take it for granted. It is a much needed contribution to the hobby/business and that is a gross understatement. Plus, it is enjoyable relaxation. I don't do facebook or twitter, never have, never will, but I like it here at this site.

Yet, I have never paid one penny to support this site and I am certain the vast majority of people here haven't, either. So when people who use this site frequently, and don't support it financially, start saying people like Leon, who don't summarily ban PWCC from providing financial support, lack cojones and are "bought," I get annoyed.

If someone who wants to self-congratulate themself for having cojones and being above "being bought" wants to PM Leon and offer to pay him whatever PWCC is paying for that ad, in exchange for replacing that ad with something else, THAT would be a principled position. Pressuring someone else to give up a revenue stream, when that person is already providing such a valuable service to the rest of us, free, is selfish and disingenuous.

Being principled with someone else's money is not being principled.

Well said!!

Agreed

Been thinking this, but couldn't put it into words as well as you have. Very well said, and I agree with every word.

You nailed it. I completely agree.

Pressuring someone else to give up a revenue stream, when that person is already providing such a valuable service to the rest of us, free, is selfish and disingenuous.

So so so spot on! This great forum is free for us because of the sponsors, whether we agree with them or not. Very well said!

So where would you draw the line on sponsorships?

Would a non- hobby sponsorship from an organization you find distasteful be acceptable?
Or any non- hobby sponsorship?

Net 54 baseball, brought to you by Coach's Corner, Battlefield, Mastro and Allen, and so on. It would be "disingenuous" to object, after all. No line drawing, Steve. Only enjoyment matters.

PS pointing out the absurdity of the argument being made, not at all suggesting Leon would ever go there, he wouldn't.

If Dick Towle were a paid advertiser on this forum...would this pose a problem to anyone?

Are you kidding Pete? 90 percent here probably have no problem with what he does. Gary might be a better example. "Sell me your centered 5s and 6s." No problem here, it would be "disingenuous" to object.

I too both enjoy and appreciate this site greatly. I am grateful for its existence and believe Leon should run it as he pleases and maximize the revenue it generates. That being said, without a passionate and voluminous membership there would be no advertising revenue. The fact that there are no membership fees serves to make easy to forget that the posters are the stars of this show. Nonetheless, none of of us are chained to our keyboards and can leave at anytime. OK I'll admit I might be the only one chained to his keyboard. I love this site.

Well, pete...typically the majority rules? If the mass majority of collectors/investors don't have a problem with alterations of cards...ineptitudes of TPG'ers...corruption and degenerate ethical/moral standards of most everyone in the hobby...then this will likely dictate the path of the future of collecting. Leaving purists like you and I to either accept or leave.

PWCC ad
 

I appreciate all of the comments both good and bad. I never want to see any member leave but my reasoning for doing things is my reasoning. I know many, if not most, think it is a monetary thing. It isn't. It is a principled thing and I have not come to the point of making the decision to take down the banners. However, it is now PWCC's wish to have them removed until this fiasco gets settled. I will certainly abide by their wishes.
They didn't want to cause more stress on them, this forum or the hobby. I will respect their wishes, as I do all advertisers. So in the next 1-2 days their banners will no longer be here, at least for the time being. Thanks again to all of our members for making this the best, most real (with our id policy), vintage baseball card (& other forums) on the internet.
.

This thread makes me sad. We hope you come back soon Paul!

Also thanks Leon for the update.

Not to sound like a suck up but Leon really is in a unique position as the owner of this forum that has brought us together. Regardless of the drama, he's the ump every time something like this happens. It can't be easy. He's like the dad driving the minivan as we're all bickering in the back. Thanks Leon for doing what you do and here's to hoping Paul and Leon make up at the next rest stop!

lol

I was going to link to "I Guess This is Goodbye" from Into the Woods, but I'm a live theatre guy and I figured most wouldn't be familiar with it.

Sha na na na
na na na na
Hey hey
Goodbye

I completely disagree. You are making it about money when it's an issue of morals and integrity. Leon, and anyone else, is certainly free to do whatever, but that doesn't excuse the behavior of the company they keep. If taking money from crooks is admirable or acceptable to you, then so be it. But you have no credibility when it comes to judging others based on principles, as you apparently have none.

Please..... Did I say taking money from crooks is admirable or acceptable to me? What I said was, Leon owns his site, so he gets to make the call, period.

I primarily collect GU stuff. There used to be a great website called gameuseduniverse. I loved it over there. They had a bunch of really great members who were very helpful to me, like Mike Specht, Dave Meidema, and Bud Hillerich (who told me my GU Terry Felton bat was one of only 4 made for him.) I got to know Chris Cavalier and that's where I met Dave Grob and others. Really great group of people.

Well, Chris sold the site to Ken Goldin of Goldin Auctions, and right away the "Goldin Rule" was instituted. It said that criticism of items listed in Goldin Auctions was not permitted - and questions needed to be sent to Ken directly, and privately. As I watched that rule be enforced several times, I started to become uncomfortable with what I was seeing, and found net54 as an alternative site.

Some of you may remember the Babe Ruth catchers glove incident a few years ago. Goldin was auctioning a glove that was thought to have been used by Ruth as a teenager at his industrial school. Some members here pointed out differences between pictures of Ruth with his glove, and the glove being auctioned. Then, some of those who were raising questions were apparently contacted by an attorney, either issuing, or threatening, a cease and desist notice.

For me, that was it. Free speech was the norm over here, and over at gameuseduniverse, not so much. I stopped going over there.

On April 23 of this year, I received an email from Chris Cavalier, which begins: "I hope this email finds you doing well. Recently, there were a few people who tried to reach me through the Game Used Universe site. As the site's founder, I am sure it seemed logical to try to reach me through the GUU. Unfortunately, my account there has been banned by the site's new owner and I am no longer able to post there or respond to anyone trying to message me through the site."

Chris went on to provide his email address at Heritage, where he is now a Consignment Director. I wish him the best and consider him to be one of the many "good guys" who used to be at that site. Out of curiosity, I checked out GUU (had problems logging in as I'd forgotten my password.) It looks like a ghost town compared to what it used to be.

So........ When I see people jumping all over Leon because he didn't instantly ban one of his advertisers over this recently breaking scandal, and then when I see people who spend quite a lot of time enjoying this site (for free) imply Leon has no "cojones" and that he can be "bought," I think it is unfair to the extreme.

Running this website costs money, and maintaining civility among all of us must be rather challenging at times. I agree with a previous poster that Leon manages this site, and keeps us all in line, in a very calm and fair way. For example, the PWCC ad issue is now resolved, and as it turns out, Leon't patient approach, to let things play out, was better than some sort of knee-jerk reaction some here advocated.

What I don't want is for the aggravation Leon has to put up with to become so great that he starts looking for his own "Goldin Parachute." Imagine if he sold this site to another auction house, or even PSA (or for that matter, PWCC.) New rules might be instituted, the current moderators would quit as they wouldn't be able to stomach those new rules, and I would have to find another hobby website, rather than watch this site degenerate the way of GUU.

Bottom line is this: I am comfortable here. If at some point I become uncomfortable, I will simply leave. But I will not try to tell Leon how to run his site, and I certainly will not insult him. If you interpret that as me having no principles, so be it.

GUU is a ghost town because of every reason you mention. Its a shame and Ken doesn't seem to care at all. That has pushed me to the Facebook groups which are much better anyway.

Paul, just take a break and then come back, I have done it a few times.

That note from Leon is like a love letter compared to posts he has made. Did you miss about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago when he went silly and openly called several members Idiots and Morons for calling out PWCC and Goldin for shady stuff at the same time. At that time he openly admitted the advertisers get special treatment. It is what it is, it's his forum and he can do what he wants.

Personally I have just learned to live with it, He has quoted one of my posts, inserted a picture of a door and told me I could leave anytime I wanted.:D So don't worry about your PM.

As far as the poll I could care less who advertises here. Just like everything else in life you have to take the bad with the good.:)

Just like I put up with our members, good and bad. It is what it is. If I booted everyone I didn't care for then this response (by me) would have never been needed. :cool:

BTW, our advertisers get special treatment? Apparently you either can't comprehend or can't read. Our advertisers get bashed all of the time. Just read the forum. It isn't difficult to see not many protections are given around here. (actually, none). The only special treatment they get is their ads on the front page, sometimes, and their banner ads on the board.

What you are saying is you don't care who anyone deals with. You are saying it's their choice. And although true, that gives you zero credibility in judging other's character and principles, like you did with the OP. You trashed him for having principles while you ignore Leon's apparent indifference when it comes to principles. So why would anyone take you seriously. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Principles > doing whatever it takes for a buck. You can spin it all you want, but anyone actually paying attention to your words sees you have no credibility.

I read Mark as saying as long as I get to enjoy the forum for free, I don't care where the revenue comes from. That's fine, he's entitled to feel that way, but don't be calling ME disingenuous.