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01-14-2009 08:19 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisFor those of you who are new to T206 cards, or need a refresher regarding why the Joe Doyle "Nat'l" card is so rare. Also, there have been several responses that indicate that some collectors have questions regarding this mysterious T206 card. The theory as to why the Joe "Doyle N.Y. Nat'l" card is so very scarce is quite simple. The 350-only Series of T206's was initially issued in late 1909 (or early 1910). There are 216 Subjects in this Series, that includes Joe Doyle......a pitcher for the NY Highlanders of the AL. In this Series is another Doyle......Larry of the NY Giants (NL). Therefore, we can conclude that the T206 designers must of confused Joe with Larry and captioned Joe's card with "Nat'l". The first batch of this Series of cards rolled off the printing press and where shipped to the Piedmont plant in Virginia. The Piedmont's were always printed first. Back in NYC at American Lithographic (ALC), an alert Quality Control checker quickly caught the "Nat'l" mistake on the first batch of Joe Doyle cards. With haste they simply erased the "Nat'l" lettering on the caption printing plate. In doing this, they created another error, the error of omission. They should have added "Amer." next to N.Y. This corrected card should have read...."Doyle, N.Y. Amer."....so, they corrected their initial error with another error. Anyhow, a few of the Doyle "Nat'l" cards left ALC and were inserted into Piedmont packs before they were caught, along with some other (Piedmont 350) T206's that are almost as rare as the Doyle (but, not as noteworthy). How many Doyle "Nat'l" cards were inserted into Piedmont packs ? We will never know. But, 99 years later we can account for only 7 of them. Perhaps, if we are lucky, there are a handful of the Doyle error cards still out there some where and they will eventually be discovered. Furthermore, there are the regular Doyle cards with the aforementioned "printer's mark". A survey here 2 years ago showed that 12% of the regular Doyle cards can be found with this "mark". It is theorized that this "mark" is a rem- nant of the "N" in "Nat'l" that remained when ALC did not cleanly erase off the word "Nat'l" on the printing plate. This variation of the regular Doyle card can be found on cards with Piedmont 350, Sweet Caporal 350, Old Mill, and Polar Bear backs. Incidently folks, this same scenario applies to the Magie card, except a greater number of the Magie cards were in- serted into Piedmont cigarette packs before ALC caught this spelling mistake.....and, corrected it to read Magee. Finally, I cannot emphasize these two factors enough...... The Doyle N.Y. Nat'l card was printed only on a PIEDMONT 350 back. The Magie card was printed only on a PIEDMONT 150 back. TED Z

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01-14-2009 08:28 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: JantzGreat stuff Ted! Keep it coming Jantz

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01-14-2009 08:35 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: AndrewThat was a great summary, a great read. In regard to the following, what are some examples: "along with some other (Piedmont 350) T206's that are almost as rare as the Doyle (but, not as noteworthy)." "Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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01-14-2009 08:42 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: barry arnoldvery well said, TRex. many thanks. by the way, when you say 'It is theorized... ,' you are being a bit humble methinks, since the theory began with you, didn't it? all the best, barry

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01-14-2009 10:38 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Fred CCopied and pasted the info from both this thread and the Jan 10 thread into a word document. I'm not going to lose sight of this info. Ted - THANK YOU!!!

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01-15-2009 05:33 AM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Frank WakefieldTed, let me add a bit, American Litho could quickly remove Nat'l from the brown process much easier than they could replace it with Amer., which would require a new plate. To file off the protruding "Nat'l" would have been a easy fix, maybe done by a printer / Highlander fan, who knows? Maybe a new plate was coming around the corner... but Joe Doyle, the pitcher, wouldn't be in the majors much longer when this was happening. Joe Doyle was with the American league Highlanders/Yankees, 1906 - 1909. In 1910 he was only in 8 games, 3 for New York, then 5 for Cincinnati. His last game was June 25th, 1910... which is about series 350 time. On his way out after 75 major league games... no time for a corrected New York Amer. card. And since he was with Cincinnati so briefly, it there was no time for the issueance of a Cincinnati Nat'l card in series 350.

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01-15-2009 06:26 AM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisExcellent insight that possibly explains why the "Amer." was not added to the caption of the normal Joe Doyle N.Y. card. The Joe Doyle N.Y. card is unique in the T206 set, as it's the only one that doesn't have its Major League identified (for cities having 2 teams). Thanks Frank, TED Z

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01-15-2009 07:48 AM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: RedPlease understand that the series of events you described could very well have happened exactly like you've described. You're basing your theory on what's known about timing of print runs and the known surviving examples. It's the best story of the card so far but it's not impossible that the Doyle mess didn't come about in a different way. If Doyle(any variation) cards were printed and shipped off to Piedmont along with all the other cards in that series then my guess is that they would have been shipped all together and in the same approximate quantity per player. If the shipment only included the Nat'l then they'd have to exist in a much larger quantity. So maybe that first shipment to Piedmont also included some of the other variations of Doyle. If the printer removed most of the Nat'l to create the dotted variation, then that first shipment of cards to Piedmont could have also included dotted cards along with the Nat'l variation. If they removed most of the Nat'l and started printing again why now do you find different backs on that partial quick fix card. I'd then assume that later the Nat'l was removed completely and all the other backs became possible. Then you have a card like I pictured missing more of the lettering at bottom, and it is not unique, and maybe it's possible to consider that the removal of Nat'l wasn't intentional. It's just odd that you'd ship down to Piedmont a gazillion cards, presumably in an equal player distribution, and include only the Nat'l variation of the Doyle in an extremely limited quantity. Possible? Impossible?

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01-15-2009 12:23 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere are 8 - T206 cards from the 150 Series that were extended into the 350 Series by virtue of their Piedmont 350 backs. With the exception of Lundgren, the other 7 cards are relatively easy to find with their usual 150 Series backs. However, all 8 of these cards are extremely scarce to find with the Piedmont 350 back. Furthermore, they were not printed with Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350. My research shows, that whenever these 8 cards are found with their rare Piedmont 350 backs.... there is a fair probability that a Doyle N.Y. Nat'l card will be found.... unfortunately, this seldom occurs. This has been a theory of mine that was proven recently with empirical evidence. The original collection of Richard Russell (who collected T206's as a teenager in 1910-1911) includes these rare Piedmont 350 cards and the Joe Doyle error card. Early in 1910, when the Piedmont 350 cards were shipped to the Richmond (VA) tobacco factory, they were INITIALLY shipped in small batches (not huge amounts). This fact, in my opinion, is supported by the scarcity of this group of cards. Subsequently, as Amer. Litho. printed up more 350 Series cards, larger shipments of T206's went to the Piedmont factory (as well as the other various T-brand factories). In the example presented here (the Russell collection) the VA factory inserted these T206 cards in their Piedmont cigarette packs and shipped them to the Atlanta (GA) area in 1910. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/a150eliteeight350b.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> I welcome any further debate on on this subject ? TED Z

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01-15-2009 04:04 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Scot Reader Ted, Excellent summary. I would only add for the sake of completeness that the career paths of seven of these eight players offer explanations for their abbreviated print runs with the Piedmont 350 back. Carl Lundgren and Vive Lindaman each played their last Major League game in 1909. Bob Ganley, shown with the Senators, was selected off waivers by the Athletics on May 18, 1909. Tom Jones, shown with the Browns, was traded to the Tigers on August 20, 1909. Ed Karger, depicted with the Reds, was purchased by St. Paul on June 9, 1909 and shipped to the Red Sox later that month. And Bill Dahlen and Bob Ewing moved to new clubs during the 1909-10 off-season. That leaves only George Mullin to ponder. Scot

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01-15-2009 04:27 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Frank WakefieldNice, Scot... Wabash George Mullin was with Detroit before, during and after the issuance of the white border tobacco cards. So I don't know what the deal is with him. I know he was one of only 4 players who ever pinch hit for Ty Cobb. And he was a bar tender for a time after his playing days were over... Karger is interesting. Reckon that has anything to do with his card being one of the less plentiful of the American Caramel E90-1s? Definitely, someone at American Litho had their eyes open for the movement of players, at least to some extent.

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01-15-2009 05:56 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for the insight on these 7 Subjects and I'm sure that their career's ending played a part in their very limited printing with the Piedmont 350 backs. But, having George Mullin to ponder, leads me with this observation. I'm sure we can name some other players that are 150/350 Subjects, whose career ended in 1910 (or were traded)......that were printed with the full complement of 350 type T-brand backs. I have to maintain my belief that these 8 Subjects are somehow linked to the initial printing that included the Doyle error card. Perhaps, all 9 of these cards were on the same sheet, and when ALC chose to discard the Doyle, these 8 were discarded along with the Doyle. TED Z

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01-15-2009 06:00 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI presented my theory that Amer. Litho. (ALC) must have first printed the T206's on Piedmont backs in your famous EPDG thread back in 2006. Then you coined the phrase "Piedmont Primacy theory". Well, I am certain this is true for the 150 Series and the 350 Series issues. I'm not too sure about the 460 Series. And, obvious to most, is that more T206's were inserted in Piedmont cigarette packs than any other T-brand. If you recall, Bill Heitman chimed in on your EPDG thread and agreed with me. His comment was that the Piedmont brand was the top of the American To- bacco Company's "darling" T-brands; and, would get the cards first. I initially based my theory on these 3 cards (Jennings, Lundgren, and Magie) in the 1st Series of the T206 set. You see, all 3 of them were printed ONLY with Piedmont 150 backs. Then, when I realized that the Doyle N.Y. Nat'l card was printed ONLY with a Piedmont 350 back, that served to reinforce my Piedmont Primacy theory. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/ajennlundgrenmagie.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/cjoedoylenatl.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Barry....I'll say it again, your EPDG thread, Scot Reader's T206 book and Bill Brown's "Super-Set" spreadsheet were the "sparks" that have ignited a tremendous amount of new thinking regard- ing "The Monster". We have learned a lot more about the T206 set; and, in this process, we have resolved some of its age old mysteries. TED Z

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01-15-2009 11:36 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: barry arnoldTed, I like to think of the German word 'unabgesichert'---uncharted territory or uncharted journey--- as illuminative of what has been occurring on this remarkable quest. As you note graciously, there have been a number of key maps, such as Reader's tome,Brown's super set, the epdg thread involving scores of 206 scholars, and other very critical threads along the way. I, for one, have to underscore gratitude for your navigation along the way, signifying the highest expression of the Roman tenet 'primus inter pares'. And the journey continues. all the best, Barry

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01-16-2009 08:57 AM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Scot Reader Frank, Interesting point you raise about Karger's scarcity in E90-1. A causal link with his team switch sounds plausible to me--although I claim zero expertise regarding that set. Ted, I think that it is more than mere coincidence that seven of the "elite eight" Piedmont 350 shortprints (to borrow your term) experienced a change in career trajectory in 1909--just as the early departure from the set of several of the 150-only subjects [e.g. G. Brown (Chicago), Pattee, Powers] can be explained by trades and other career-changing events. I don't think this undercuts your theory necessarily. Scot

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01-16-2009 12:14 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Frank WakefieldPowers suffered the ultimate career change. Powers died April 26, 1909, from internal injuries attributed to an injury suffered chasing a foul ball in Shibe Park's inaugural game, April 12, 1909. I think that American Litho might have curtailed printing of his cards. I think kids who had his card might have pitched it away because he was no longer playing.

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01-16-2009 12:18 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere are additional 150/350 series Subjects whose Major League BB careers ended in the 1909-1910 timeframe. Nevertheless, they were printed on most of the 350 backs (EPDG, P350, Old Mill, Sov 350, SC350 f25, SC350 f30). Oct 1908......Mike Donlin (seated) suspends his Major Lge. career Major Lge. career ends May 1909.....Louis "Bull" Durham Jun 1910......Ed Hahn Oct 1909......Frank Isbell Jun 1909......Glenn Liebrandt May 1910.....Harry Lumley Apr 1910......Simon Nicholls Jun 1909......Claude Ritchey Sep 1909......Al Shaw Oct 1909......Jimmy Williams And, the following 150/350 series Subjects who were traded in the 1909-1910 timeframe were printed on most of the 350 backs (EPDG, P350, Old Mill, Sov 350, SC350 f25, SC350 f30). Abbaticcio Ball Covaleski Cr iger Nichollss Spade Sullivan Gentleman, there is more here than meets the eye as to why Dahlen, Ewing, Ganley, Tom Jones, Karger, Lindaman, Lundgren and Mullin (throwing) are not found with the usual complement of 350-type backs as the above listed Subjects. Furthermore, the only 350 back (Piedmont 350) that these 8 cards are found with is an extremely scarce one. TED Z

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01-17-2009 06:11 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisSorry ole buddy, but I differ with you regarding the Mike Powers card. It actually happens to be more available than the other 11 cards in the "150-only" Series. Surveys have shown that Powers is 2x more available than any other cards in this series. I'll follow this up shortly with a more detailed post on Powers. TED Z

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01-17-2009 06:32 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisFRANK W Mike "Doc" Powers death due to an on-field injury on Opening Day (April 12, 1909) at Shibe Park is a very sad event in BB history. From 1901 - 1909, Powers was Eddie Plank's preferred battery mate. Powers card is one of the 12 Subjects in the "150-only" Series of the T206 set. The Amer. Litho. Co. issued his card with the full complement of "150-type" T-backs (shown here). Mostly found with the PIEDMONT 150 back, Powers is also quite available with the SWEET CAPORAL 150, Fac- tory #649 1st Dist. N.Y. (overprint) back. This was an ATC Factory in Rochester, NY. Now, what I find most interesting....is that Powers died on April 26, 1909; and, yet his card was issued with more backs than any of the other 11 cards in the 150-only Series. Furthermore, sev- eral surveys have shown that the Powers card is twice as available than the other 11 tough to find cards printed in this initial Series. Therefore, does this fact tell us that, perhaps, the initial launch of the T206 cards was months earlier than has been reported ? <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/6powersbacks.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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01-17-2009 07:26 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Frank WakefieldInteresting, Ted. Is it necessarily true that more backs equate to more cards? I still think Powers was a card that was more likely to be thrown away than other cards, back in 1910 and 1911...

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01-18-2009 02:36 PM

A refresher course on why the Joe Doyle Nat'l card is so rare

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYes.....the more the various T-backs that a T206 Subject was printed with does equate to more card availability of that Subject.....for example.... Red Cobb has 24 diff. backs (and for that matter all 6 of the super-prints have at least 18) Conversely, Subjects with the least variety of T-backs are the toughest...... Lundgren (Cubs)....P150, P350, EPDG Elberfeld (Washington-portrait)....P350, SC350, OM Dahlen (Brooklyn)....P350, Sov350, SC350, OM OK, since you helped me complete my Sweet Caporal 150 Fac. 649 overprint set....I'll let you in on my latest "wild imagination" regarding this sub-set. It has always bothered me that this sub-set comprises of 35 cards. This number does not fit into my lowest common denominator of a 6 card format in the printing of the T206's. Your post regarding "Doc" Powers got me thinking. As you know, Powers was the Catcher of choice for Eddie Plank, so it's my belief that there was a 36th card in the SC150/649 set, it was Plank. A study of the players in this set indicates that 66% of them are either Pitchers or Catchers. Recall that the 150 Series Plank is only available with SC150 Fac 25 or SC150 Fac 30. There- fore, I would say that a good probability exists that Amer. Litho. also printed Plank with the Factory 649 back. But, never issued Plank due to the theoretical conflict with the American Caramel Co. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abplankpowers.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> ......................Plank and Powers......perfect together................ TED Z

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