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Rank your top 19th Century Baseball Players
I'm working on a N172 HOF run and it got me thinking....
Who your top 5-10 players of that era? |
1. Cy Young
2. Cap Anson 3. Kid Nichols 4. Dan Brouthers 5. Tim Keefe 6. Ed Delahanty Off the top of my head without checking baseball reference again, based on careers in the major leagues. Spaulding, Creighton and others may be more deserving. Added a 6th since Young spans two full decades, only one of which is the 19th century. If only his career through 1899 counts he probably doesn’t merit inclusion. |
Very off the top of my head ranking, but I’d go with.
1. Cap Anson 2. King Kelly 3. Ed Delahanty 4. Tim Keefe 5. Pud Galvin I’m cutting of Cy Young because his career straddled the decades, though the first half his career is probably still good enough to make the list on merit. And as much as I’d love to see it, I just couldn’t find room for Old Hoss Radbourn |
My approach was just to look only at stats compiled prior to the 1901 season. That yields this list:
1. Kid Nichols 2. Cy Young 3. John Clarkson 4. Tim Keefe 5. Dan Brouthers 6. Roger Connor 7. Cap Anson 8. Jim McCormick 9. Hoss Radbourn 10. Bob Caruthers |
Without looking at stats, here are my favorites at least! 2-5 can be interchangeable, but the King will always be the King!
King Kelly Cap Anson Cy Young Roger Connor Dan Brouthers |
1. Buck Ewing
2. Ed Delahanty 3. George Wright 4. Sam Thompson 5. King Kelly In the 19th century the catcher was the most important player on the field and Ewing was the best catcher of the period. In the 1920s Connie Mack called Ewing the greatest player he had ever seen. |
Here is my list
1. Kid Nichols 2. Cy Young 3. Cap Anson 4. Tim Keefe 5. John Clarkson |
1. Cy Young
2. Ed Delahanty 3. Buck Ewing 4. Kid Nichols 5. Cap Anson |
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1) Cap Anson
2) Kid Nichols 3) Dan Brouthers 4) John Clarkson 5) Tim Keefe 6) Roger Connor 7) Ed Delahanty 8) Cy Young (many of his best years were in the 20th century) 9) Pud Galvin 10) Jim McCormick Honorable Mention: "Sliding Billy" Hamiltion, King Kelly, Old Hoss Radbourn, George Davis, Willie Keeler, Hugh Duffy, Jack Glasscock, Buck Ewing) |
Top 19th Century ballplayers
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan.../N162Anson.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...uthersN162.jpg Ed Delehanty....my favorite 19th Century ballplayer. https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...yBat%20_2_.jpg------https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...anty%20_2_.jpg SABR rates Glasscock as the best shortstop of the 19th century....and, I agree. https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...dgeglassck.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan.../kellyn162.jpg And, Tim Keefe and Sam Thompson TED Z T206 Reference . |
Some honorable mentions that have not been listed yet (Maybe not top 5 players, or even players at all, but I like them, and if you're going to run n172 or 19th Century, you must have them):
George Gore Bobby Lowe John Montgomery Ward Ned Williamson Billy Sunday "Big Jim" Mutrie (Manager) Chris Von Der Ahe (Owner) "Kid" Gleason (20th Century Crossover) "Connie" Mack (20th Century Crossover) Charles Comiskey (Crossover) Clark Griffith (Crossover) |
As a kid reading up and looking at stats, I was (still am) amazed at the 60 win season for Charles "Old Hoss" Radbourn. Like Wow !
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I *highly* recommend the book "59 in '84" about that season. Baseball history of the highest order. Fun fact: Radbourn is the first person know to have been photographed while flipping the bird to the camera. And he did it at least twice. |
Cap Anson and Kid Nichols, for sure.
Perhaps Billy Hamilton and maybe Hugh Duffy? |
Let's not forget Dave Orr, who probably belongs in the "Would have been inducted into the HOF if not for health issues..."
"Orr was one of the best hitters in baseball during his major league career. He never hit below .305 for a full season, and his career batting average of .342 is the eleventh highest in major league history, and the third highest for a right-handed hitter. He was also regarded as the hardest-hitting batsman of his era. His 31 triples in 1886 was a major league record that stood for 25 years and has only been exceeded once. He was also the first batter to compile more than 300 total bases in a season. Despite his weight (250 pounds at 5 ft 11 in (1.80 m)), Orr was also a solid defensive performer with a .973 fielding average. He twice led the American Association in range factor by a first baseman. In 1886, he led the Association's first basemen in putouts and fielding percentage, and in 1889 he led in assists with 61. Orr hit .371 in 1890, but his career was cut short by a stroke suffered during an exhibition game at the end of the 1890 season." https://collectionapi.metmuseum.org/...558/main-image |
Certainly there were players before the old judge set that have to make the list. What about wright creighton Cummings or spalding
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Non-American: Tip O'Neil.
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Sticking with just 19th-C stats
Anson Delahanty Clarkson Nichols Hamilton |
Bid mcphee
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Cap Anson
King Kelly Dan Brouthers Roger Conner Tim Keefe Ed Delahanty Jack Glasscock |
Several listed Buck Ewing earlier, but now he has fallen off the charts. How come?
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I think the reason for the disparity is that Ewing’s statistics do not jump off the page the way some others do. So, ranking him highly depends a lot on taking into consideration the opinion of his peers and on the difficulty and importance of his position. He has essentially the same statistics as Kelly, but I put Ewing in my top 10 because he was the best catcher of the 19th century and I do not put Kelly in because as an outfielder, I am considering mainly his offensive statistics, and in my view they don’t measure up to the players I included.
(The other reason is that this is just people’s opinions, so there is never going to be a list that everyone agrees on.) Here is my alphabetical list. I would pick Nichols as the best pitcher and Brouthers as the most dominant batter (although in terms of overall stats, Anson ranks higher). Anson Brouthers Clarkson Connor Delahanty Ewing Hamilton Keefe Nichols Radbourne Davis and Young were pretty equally split between the 19th and 20th century, so I did not include them. Kelly is an interesting case. Statistically, he is in the next tier of players in my mind. But in terms of popularity, he may be the top player. |
I am adding my pre-N172 list of ten players. It is a little less researched and I may have left off an obvious choice.
Barnes Bond Creighton Cummings Mathews McBride McVey Pike Spalding Wright (George) |
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My thanks to Jay M and Ted Z for mentioning Sam Thompson whenever the stalwarts of the 19th century are discussed. Sam got a late start (age 25) before he played professionally, and his total stats (except for RBI and HR) do not stand out. The first Veterans Committee, charged in 1945 with selecting deserving 19th century players, passed him over.
yet, consider the following stats compiled by Roy Kerr, author of the book, "Big Sam Thompson, Baseball's Greatest Clutch Hitter." 1. He was the first man to gain the 200 hit plateau in a season (in only 127 games) and would twice repeat this feat. 2. His RBI per-game ratio, 0.093 is he highest of any man who ever played the game. (although he is a virtual tie with Greenberg and Gehrig) 3. His RBI+Runs Scored per-game ratio is by far the highest of any man who ever played the game. 4. Thompson's 126 career home runs rank second among hitters of his era, and many of his four baggers can vie with those hit by his contemporary, Dan Brouthers, for the title of the longest hit in the 19th century. 5. On the base paths ... he ran well and aggressively, averaging 25 steals per season from 1889 to 1895. 6. ... he compiled the highest fielding average of any outfielder who played 1000 games and whose career concluded before the 20th century. 7. His 283 outfield assists rank twelfth all time, and among all outfielders who played more than 1000 games, his assist-per-game ratio (1/4.9 games) is the highest in history. 8. Thompson, in 1895 either became the first of four men to record three outfielder-to-catcher assists in a game, or the only man ever to record four in a game. I am a mathematical statistician by profession and understand that statistics can be cherry-picked to deceive and confuse, but ... |
My thanks to Jay M and Ted Z for mentioning Sam Thompson whenever the stalwarts of the 19th century are discussed. Sam got a late start (age 25) before he played professionally, and his total stats (except for RBI and HR) do not stand out. The first Veterans Committee, charged in 1945 with selecting deserving 19th century players, passed him over.
yet, consider the following stats compiled by Roy Kerr, author of the book, "Big Sam Thompson, Baseball's Greatest Clutch Hitter." 1. He was the first man to gain the 200 hit plateau in a season (in only 127 games) and would twice repeat this feat. 2. His RBI per-game ratio, 0.093 is he highest of any man who ever played the game. (although he is a virtual tie with Greenberg and Gehrig) 3. His RBI+Runs Scored per-game ratio is by far the highest of any man who ever played the game. 4. Thompson's 126 career home runs rank second among hitters of his era, and many of his four baggers can vie with those hit by his contemporary, Dan Brouthers, for the title of the longest hit in the 19th century. 5. On the base paths ... he ran well and aggressively, averaging 25 steals per season from 1889 to 1895. 6. ... he compiled the highest fielding average of any outfielder who played 1000 games and whose career concluded before the 20th century. 7. His 283 outfield assists rank twelfth all time, and among all outfielders who played more than 1000 games, his assist-per-game ratio (1/4.9 games) is the highest in history. 8. Thompson, in 1895 either became the first of four men to record three outfielder-to-catcher assists in a game, or the only man ever to record four in a game. I am a mathematical statistician by profession and understand that statistics can be cherry-picked to deceive and confuse, but ... |
Great summary, Keith. Sam is one of the most underrated players in history.
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1. Big Ed Delahanty
2. Buck Ewing 3. Roger Connor 4. Sam Thompson 5. Billy Hamilton UN- honorable mention Cap Anson. Honorable mention George Wright. BTW if Ed Delahanty is not on your list go look at his stat line and do some research of his dominance at the plate. https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/july...home-run-game/ |
The previous poster is correct in his reference to Ed Delahanty. The student of 19th century stars is referred to the book -- "July 2, 1903" by Mike Sowell for a superb account of the game, both anecdotal and factual. And to return to the thread's purpose I would rank both Delahanty and Brouthers ahead of Thompson. The Philadelphia outfield of 1894, Delahanty in left, Hamilton in center and Thompson in right is often mentioned in baseball lore as having the highest consensus batting average in history.
Mike Sowell is quoted with reference to Thompson 1. Sam Thompson, a menacing sight at six-foot-two and two hundred pounds ... gunned down runners from right field with the game's most powerful throwing arm. 2. He (Delahanty) called his his powerful throwing arm his "whip" and guarded it carefully, lobbing the ball back to the infield except when it was necessary to cut down a runner or hold a man on base. At such times, he would fire the ball with amazing accuracy and with a speed unmatched by any other outfielder except his teammate, Big Sam Thompson. |
He doesn't actually make a top 5-10 list, but I'd like John McGraw to get a some attention. Little Napoleon was actually one hell of a ball player. 334 career batting average, 466 career on base percentage. Not much power, but excellent at setting the table. Sort of the 19th century Wade Boggs.
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Adding another 15 alphabetically to make 25 from me. I think between my first 10 and next 15 all positions are covered.
Burkett (who I think is the best player not mentioned so far) Caruthers Duffy Galvin Glasscock Kelly McCormick McGraw McPhee O’Rourke Rusie Thompson Ward Welch D. White Beckley, Griffith, Keeler, and Kelley excluded because of 20th century crossover (and to make it easier for me to pick 15 players). |
I'll take the approach that the time limits are OJ subjects (1887-90 but inclusive of the minor leaguers in the set).. So no Cy Young, Jesse Burkett, A.G. Spalding, George Wright, or Jimmy Creighton..
1-A) Cap Anson (I'm just rating him as a player not based on my opinion about his role in excluding African-Americans from "organized baseball") For better or worse he was probably the definitive 19th Century ballplayer. 1-B) Kid Nichols - My pick for best pitcher. He was an 1890's guy which makes him different from the Keefe/Radbourn/Clarkson/Galvin crew who were pretty much done by 1894 when pitching changed. 3) Ed Delahanty -- also more of a 1890's guy, sad story. 4) Personal favorite: Sliding and Scoring Billy Hamilton -- perhaps the greatest leadoff man and run scorer who played until Rickey Henderson (Or Cool Papa Bell... I guess he hit leadoff. It seems logical -- sadly I can't back this up with much data). 5-8 I'm just dumping Clarkson/Radbourn/Keefe and Galvin here -- they played in another world and their stats are crazy. I want to point out Radbourn's 1884 as the best single season -- maybe ever. I'm not sure what the order for these guys is. The contemporaries would have put Hoss first I guess and Galvin last. 9-11 ) Dan Brouthers - Roger Connor, and Sam Thompson -- likely in that order. Great hitters -- power hitters I guess. At peak they were probably better than Anson but they did not run up the career numbers like Cap -- not even close. 12) Buck Ewing -- Those who saw him play and played with and against him regarded him as simply the best. He was known as the best catcher. His numbers don't impress like some of the others. Of course, being a Catcher in the 19th Century was brutal (there's a book about it I read at some point). -- -- Some others to round out a "team" positionally etc. 2B - Bid McPhee 3B - Deacon White SS - Jack Glasscock Utility - $10,000 Mike (King) Kelly (Basically everything but Pitcher) & Bobby Caruthers (Pitcher Outfield)... Both had short careers and they were big winners. |
Fully support Sam Thompson, was wanting to post all week, glad Keith beat me to it.
In my opinion, and I am biased, the other guy that should be on far more lists is Deacon White. As others alluded to and Peter Morris elaborated so well (in his book "Catcher - How the Man Behind the Plate became an American Folk Hero"), a good catcher offered more to a team's success than any other position. It was a position most athletes feared to play. To do it well you had to be extremely skilled and fearless. No one did it better in the 1870s than Deacon White. Deacon caught more games than anyone that decade with innovations that placed him at great risk (such as catching right behind the plate when runners were on base). Catching was brutal, shortened many careers, the wear-and-tear taking toles on offensive production, yet Deacon frequently led or was among the leaders in offense. The value of the catcher would diminish with time, but when it mattered most, Deacon was the best. Recognizing the tole catching was taking on his hands, Deacon then re-invented himself as a 3rd baseman for the last half of his career and played the position well. In 1888, as the oldest player in baseball, he still was able to hit for average, 6th in the League at .298. Amazing he put up the numbers he did as a catcher, play many short seasons, and still eclipse 2000 hits. While the following link doesn't provide a lot of stats and analysis, I found it to be an interesting read. https://www.wbur.org/onlyagame/2017/...l-hall-of-fame And if we are loving on 19th century catchers, need to give a shout out to Charlie Bennett :) |
Great post, Joe, and I love that portrait. Not that it is relevant for this discussion, but Deacon White is also by far the toughest HOFer in the Old Judge set.
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-Thank you all for the input and your responses! This has been a super fun read!!
I dove deep tonight and did my own statistical analysis and interestingly enough came up with the same top 10 (although I'm sure it's a different order) as Michael "Molenick". I focused heavily in a lot of cases on more current statistical segments like WAR and OPS+. I found 4 pitchers that really stood ahead of the rest (although if I was forced to take a 5th it would've been McCormick...sorry Pud!). As for the position players the top 5 for me were easy to select. The 6th came down to a tight grouping and I was forced to leave off guys like Thompson (baaarely), Stovey (surprised he wasn't mentioned more), Browning (one of my all time favorites) and Orr (sorry just not enough playing time for me). And at the end of the day, if Connie Mack and Jay Miller say Buck Ewing belong in top 10 then who am I to argue? Without further ado: Position- 1. Brouthers 2. Delahanty 3. Anson 4. Connor 5. Hamilton 6. Ewing Pitchers- 1. Nichols 2. Clarkson 3. Radbourn 4. Keefe |
I think the big thing about Radbourn was the 59 wins in 1884. People should realize that if Charley Sweeney didn't leave the team half way through the season Radbourn would never have even approached that number.
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Fergy
Charles Ferguson was a 2-way player who accumulated 31.7 WAR in 4 seasons before dying from Typhoid Fever 12 days after turning 25 yrs old.
According to SABR, Wilbert Robinson ranked him top 5 of all time ... "Perhaps the greatest testament to Ferguson’s abilities as a ballplayer came from one of his contemporaries, Wilbert Robinson. Robinson was a catcher for the crosstown rival Philadelphia Athletics before going on to a Hall of Fame career as a player and manager with the Baltimore Orioles and Brooklyn Robins. When asked in 1931 to name the five greatest ballplayers of all time, Robinson rated Ferguson as the fifth greatest, saying: “Back in the old, old days the Phillies had a man who could pitch like a streak and play the infield, too. His name was Charley Ferguson. You can’t leave him off. … But if I have to name the best five you can put down Cobb, Keeler, Ruth, Wagner, and Ferguson for me." https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...eeee79ea_b.jpg |
The thing about Ewing is both his reputation and his position. Kind of like if Johnny Bench was a first baseman we would look at him like Frank Howard or Boog Powell: a really good player but not an all-time great.
And kudos to Brian for ranking the players...I chickened out and went alphabetical. |
Amateur attempt at fielding a team with "best" 19th century player at each position ...
P - Kid Nichols C - Buck Ewing (1*) 1st - Cap Anson 2nd - Bid McPhee 3rd - Deacon White (2*) SS - Jack Glasscock (3*) LF - Ed Delahanty CF - Billy Hamilton RF - King Kelly (4*) DH - Roger Connor / Dan Brouthers (1*) honorable mention to Deacon McGuire, who caught 1103 games in the 19th century alone (more than Ewing's 636 and White's 458 careers combined) and another 509 in the 20th century. Wilbert Robinson also caught 1108 of his 1316 games in the 19th century. (2*) Jimmy Collins and McGraw spent ~1/2 career in 20th century (3*) George Davis, Bill Dahlen, and Bobby Wallace ~spent 1/2 their careers in 20th century (4*) Sam Thompson has almost exact stats, it's so close! |
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I like the idea of doing it by position so I will just expand it to a 15 man roster, which, if not the exact roster size in this time period, I think is close.
I will go with: P - Nichols P - Keefe P - Clarkson P - Radbourn C - Ewing 1st - Brouthers 2nd -McPhee 3rd - White SS - Glasscock LF - Delahanty CF - Hamilton RF - Thompson UT - Kelly UT - Ward DH - Anson DH - Connor |
Big Sam
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Sam is one of my favorites too...it doesn't hurt that I have just a half dozen 19th Century HOFers in my collection and he's one of them.
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