Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein
 

Thanks Peter for the info.

Rest assured, I will be joining unlike all the apologists and pussies that don't get my humor and just want to keep feeding the machine.

Finally we have someone with balls to take this on unlike the idiots that think it's "business as usual" at the POPsicle stand. I try to make my post humorous and I don't really care if some of you don't get it .

I just don't like BILLION DOLLAR FRAUDS. Call me un American call me an idiot. I don't give a darn...Left field. It's not really fun or funny what they have done to card collecting. I really think it's bullshit to steal money from people and other idiots don't seem to care and want to keep the $$$ train rolling. You know who you are numskulls.

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-co...ball-cards.pdf

On an admittedly quick read, I'd give that complaint a very small chance of surviving a motion to dismiss.

Fraud is pled in conclusory terms. Basically no particular facts alleged supporting fraud. Must have been fraud because of the defendants' negligence in not realizing what they should have realized. That ain't fraud.

One person's (someone learned) opinion.

i quickly perused this and it states that PSA maintains photos of all cards it grades? Is this true?

My impression is that this isn't written terribly well.

I tend to agree , but it's a good start. :D

Fraud is just one of 8 separate counts alleged in the Complaint, and if any of those survives a motion to dismiss, which it/they should, the case would continue. Consumer fraud has different requisite elements than common-law fraud, and, at least in Arizona, is easier to establish.

This could be incredibly interesting once discovery gets in full swing.

Hi everyone. This case is filed in Orange County Superior Court. You can access the case docket by ...

1. Going to www.occourts.org
2. Clicking on "Online Case Access"
3. Click on "Access Now" next to "Civil Case & Document Access"
4. Click "Accept Terms"
5. Type in the case number of "30-2020-01130892" and year of "2020" and doing the "I'm not a robot"

The case is assigned to Hon. William Claster in Department CX-104. (CX is for Civil Complex).

To the extent any motions are filed, and I'm sure there will be, Judge Claster will likely issue a tentative ruling. His tentative rulings can be accessed here:

https://www.occourts.org/tentativeru...terrulings.htm

And for those who want to attend any hearings in person, the Courthouse is located at 751 W. Santa Ana Boulevard, Santa Ana, California 92701.

The Courthouse is open to the public, but you do have to go through a security check.

Thank you.

Not being an attorney, what would ballpark lawyer cost be for the plantiff and the defendant(s). Im sure there are two seperate amounts... Through jury trial or up to trial.

Nearly impossible to say for now--too many parameters. Whatever the attorneys' fees, I am sure they will be reasonable. :D

Plaintiff's law firm could be doing on a contingency but not necessarily.

Geez. That introduction hold back no punches.

“Baseball-card collecting really ought to be extinct. It’s an analog hobby in a digital world, an expression of fandom in a sport whose attendance is in slow decline and whose cultural relevance is in free fall.”

Have to wonder if eBay will be a defendant.

At the very least it puts a thorn in the side of these clowns. And maybe it pushes Pathetic Sports Authenticators more toward Professional Sports Authenticators.

Anyone who thinks baseball's cultural relevance is in free fall honestly has their head in their ass. Baseball is the one American sport talked about and debated endlessly. . . 12 months a year, 365 days a year. Baseball hall of fame debates all winter. Baseball cheating discussions all winter. Endless. Never stops. That's a silly point. Wait till the contract for Major league broadcasting is up for renewal. Someone will pony up billions.

79. Second, when a card is trimmed, it no longer fits perfectly into a PSA case. Trimmed cards can often be identified by a gap between the card and the edge of the case and they may even move within the case.

This has been discussed a lot on this forum. I was told many times that the PSA holders come in so many different sizes and any card that is loose inside its case doesn't mean it was trimmed.

I thought the same thing.

And especially strip cards and T206 which were not systematically cut like modern cards. This will be hard to prove.

What about with the thousands of "before and after" photos, showing the cards to be indisputably trimmed to a smaller size. There are a plethora of "maraca" cards that used to fit snugly and now have significant air space.

These pics do not lie, and will be quite impactful if it goes to trial. The plaintiffs should have a wealth of evidence... probably more than any judge or jury could handle.

I'm by no means a lawyer but I'm always a little concerned about situations like this. It seems if the first bullet fired isn't well thought out, it can derail the entire effort.

Like if this lawsuit is done halfway or if there's some technical error and the case is summarily dismissed, it opens the door for PSA, PWCC, etc. to say "see, we weren't doing anything wrong - the case was dismissed" and it's business as usual for them, making the second attempt that much harder.

Hi Mark! Just playing devil's advocate


A. PSA Knowingly Graded Altered Cards

How can one prove this?

"The bank bag in the dumpster near my home does not prove beyond a doubt that I robbed a bank."
"But the video of you robbing the bank does."
"Oh."

Completely agree Steve.

This is AWESOME, at least with respect to PSA.

Do they need to disclose this on financial reports and/or reserve for this contingent liability?

I have spoken to several members (and former members) about buying a high-profile card graded by PSA that we can prove has been altered, sending it in under their guaranty and then suing them when they failed to honor it. I am still up for that, sign me up. But in the meantime, I love to see this suit filed against PSA. And, I would love to join the Class, I just have no discernible proof that I can (yet)

Maybe graders were told what to do or who submitted? Maybe graders knew what to do when cards were submitted in certain unique holders with markings. Start with the graders and submitters who benefited and work your way up the food chain.

Personally I don't see this going anywhere except costing everyone more money. Even though SGC is not listed, their prices could rise due to higher risk insurance or risk overall. The only way I see this as being cut and dry, is if someone on the inside testifies that fraud was taking place. Once this is settled, I don't really see much impact to PSA or PWCC. It might bankrupt Probstein though. All PSA has to do is show somewhere in all their fine print that the grades they give are their opinion and does not guaranty their grade will crossover to a competitor. I'm sure they've learned how to cover their ass on this subject over the years.

All it takes is 1 disgruntled grader who decides to talk...

A "technical error" would not be a decision on the merits and almost certainly would not prevent the action from being re-filed and served, there or elsewhere and upon whomever is appropriate.

A complaint is just that, a series of allegations that can be developed, amended, discarded or supplemented as time passes. It is designed and required to put a defendant on notice of the types of conduct that Plaintiff believes comprise legally recognized claims, so that Defendant is not left guessing as to what it supposedly did wrong. It is not intended to spell out specifically each and every transgression, or comprise "proof" of each matter alleged.

I Agree..
 

And there may be many more than one to come forward once the ball is rolling

New article on PWCC

https://www.oregonlive.com/business/...ollectors.html

Cant wait to see discovery on this.... should be interesting.

Now its making sense with all the requirements for what PSA is looking for in a grader from their website.

It should be worded that PSA knowingly assigned numeric grades to altered cards. Everyone knows that they grade altered cards. Just sayin'

Thanks, Todd. Maybe "technicality" was a better word choice than "technical error". Either way, without getting into politics, it reminds me of a line from All the President's Men - If you shoot too high and miss, everyone feels more secure

The question should be...

How can a company who bills itself as the "largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world" and states "when you buy a PSA-graded collectible or submit an item to PSA for grading, you get the most accurately graded collectible in the hobby", plead ignorance here? If they can't identify an altered card, how can they promise what they do?

A company that did that would be guilty of something, right?

Or am I missing something?

+1

Where is our resident Thing #2,

"there is a lawsuit so it must mean something! "

Everyone is bringing up valid points. I just hope it doesn't tarnish the hobby any more than the grading scandal already has.

Ted...

Regarding my "before and after" comment... I was just addressing the statement made prior to my post, which referred to the air space between the cards' edges and the "bumpers". The statement opined that there are different sizes of slab openings and tolerable variances on card sizes. This was stated to rebuff/invalidate the plaintiff's "excessive air space" accusation.

My "before and after" comment was referencing the change in air space between the original and altered versions of the same card. We've seen it hundreds (if not thousands) of times on Blowout.... the same cards with indisputable/identical paper fiber identifiers. These cards fit much more snugly in their original and pre-altered state. It's very easy to visually demonstrate and document these before/after differences, and there are thousands of examples that would serve as evidence.

That's what I was referring to. With regard to how can one prove that PSA knowingly graded altered cads... that will be incumbent upon the plaintiff's legal team to convey. It's safe to say there's a mountain of evidence to plow through, and none of us know the inside connections or inner-workings at PSA.

That is, unless someone here is a former PSA employee or a fly on the wall. But unfortunately the former employee probably has a gag order or NDA, and the fly can't speak English (other than to say Heeeeelp Me!)

Ted doesn't see it because he is a blind bat apologist and just can't stop the POP. He's Teddy Blind Bat. Loves to take the asses point of view. That's OK, more power to Teddy Blind Bat.

Let's move on to some more humor, which Teddy Blind Bat won't get.
I appreciate Sports Card Radio using a few of my industry nicknames and Here's a couple of bozo's in the first series! Nice Job!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=125

Let's not forget the ring Leader BRENT MASTRO!

Nothing, and I mean nothing, will happen to Probstein or Brent.... They have been laughing all the way to the bank and will continue to do so (Ebay has a lot to do with this). I would also be shocked if anything comes down on PSA... There you have it

I wonder if they'll add anything about obstruction from removing certification numbers from their online database or eliminating the ability to contact their defrauded buyers by removing accounts of ne'er-do-wells like me who criticize them online.
I heard from another board member a few days ago who was told by PSA that his business is no longer welcome after being critical of the company online. So you better be nice to the company if you keep wanting to ride the gravy train! ;-)

Anyone know a Mr Scott Hardy?
 

He Connects idiots like me to the Brilliant Lawyer's who Like $$$$$$$$.$$

https://topclassactions.com/category...nvestigations/

at least i'm Happy All the TiMe!!! :)

Jus wanna say that i mostly agree wit the initial verbal genius ~

A couple of things:
1) In order to get damages by alleging breach of conduct from PSA under its grade guarantee or through PWCC, wouldn't someone joining this class action need to have tried to return their cards and been refused?
2) I remember one of the lawyers (Peter?) mentioning that a better solution than a class action lawsuit would be a "mass action" lawsuit because not everyone was defrauded for the same amounts and class action suits are normally for peanut-butter spreading of monetary judgments; do I have that correct?
3) If they are suing for loss of value of graded cards, but the overall card market is crazy strong, won't it be tough to prove that the market is cratering due to this scandal?

Doubtful. They only started scanning cards for photography purposes a year ago, and then only high valued cards at Express levels as far as I know.

It seems to me, they are simply saying that they provide "the most accurately graded collectible in the hobby". This does not mean the item is 100% accurately graded; it simply means that PSA feels that they come closest to the 100% accurate threshold.

PSA could have 50% accuracy over-all. If no other TPG hits the 50% mark or higher, then PSA is correct in their assertion that they are "the most accurate".

Steve

Query re: Para 54 (was PSA first?)
 

Was PSA the first card-grading company ?
I thought it was the SGC predecessor run by Dave Foreman "SCG" or something..... I used to have a T205 Jennings that was in their holder which was like an early SGC holder black....

--
It's not relevant to the merits of the complaint. I just wondered...

Plaintiff firms typically enter into contingency fee contracts with their clients. If the case settles before trial, 33% is the usual fee. It, however, normally increases to 40% if the case goes to trial.

The Defendants’ attorneys will bill per hour. The total fee is obviously the agreed upon hourly rate X the total hours. The defense attorney fees will likely equal hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I’m sure the Defendants have insurance, which will defend and indemnify them. This is what insurance does. However, most insurance policies exclude intentional torts. The insurance companies may defend under a reservation of rights. They could even bring forth a declaration action to determine whether there is any insurance coverage.

Great information. I would go ahead and also list the nearest federal court house’s address and information. The Defendants are going to quickly transfer this case to federal court.

In order for that to be true, there must be an enormous amount of SGC and Beckett altered cards. Anybody suing them?

And I'll add, if a card grading and "authentication" expert can't validate the most basic of criteria...is the card authentic...they have no business calling themselves experts. In fact, they have no business being in that business.

The problem is, exactly how does one quantify the accuracy level of a particular TPG? Who do you go to, to accomplish it?

For example, in autograph collecting, Charles Hamilton was considered the foremost authenticator in the business. In sub-areas of autograph collecting, there are certain authenticators who specialize in signatures; i.e., in astronaut autographs, Steve Zarelli is probably the #1 authenticator.

In fine art, there are people who are considered the foremost experts on a particular artist, say van Gogh or Rembrandt.

Who is the #1 card grader/authenticator, who could determine, to a level that is "legally sufficient" in a court of law, PSA's accuracy compared to other TPGs.

Without a legally sufficient "expert witness", I just don't see PSA's claim of being the "most accurate", being a problem for them. It is essentially just their opinion.

Also, to what level will a court of law require, for alleged proof that the card shown in "before" picture A, is actually the exact same card shown in "after" picture B. We all have our opinions and feelings about all the cards reported/"outed" in this ongoing scandal; but we all know that pictures can be manipulated. The same card can look completely different in scans taken with different scanners, depending on the individual scanner's settings. We also know that the card stock is not always "perfect"; there are usually defects in the stock. Printing methods used for a particular card can show recurring identical defects in a particular card; i.e., 1976 Topps George Brett & 1978 Topps Molitor/Trammell. The simple fact that two different pictures of cards that show the same perceived defect(s), show cards that have different grades, but otherwise cannot be differentiated, does not mean that the cards in the two pictures, are actually the same exact card.

Steve