PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7
 

PWCC has a generously graded 36 WWG Joe D, http://www.ebay.com/itm/142260836796 but I guess it looks better than it did before, http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...maggio-rookie/.

wow! thats some ROI!

So how did someone remove such a significant amount of age toning to render the untoned spots nearly invisible in this incarnation? A miracle of modern card doctoring.

A Lady Macbeth job to be sure.

Well, that stinks!
 

Wow!

Had not noticed that the WWG Joe D as a PSA 7 sold recently in a Goldin Auction because I do not look at their auctions. Their scan was a bit misleading as it is washed out and the stain is not as obvious as it is in the PWCC scan. https://goldinauctions.com/LotDetail...entoryid=25573

Wwg
 

Whoever cleaned it up did the hobby a huge favor. Great card either way.

HOLY MOLY. I'm in the wrong business. Definitely crazy ROI.

Remember........
 

Never Get Cheated!

It takes a lot of balls to soak a $6600 card, but I guess it paid off in end.

Still a NM (7) and you can still see the remnants of the tape stains IS a little concerning.

Wonder if that would be a (7) on any modern card with similar evidence of past taping on it.

Looking at the REA auction, it was probably cleaned up just to get the (4). Now another round of cleaning got it to a (7). :eek:

Yep, some crack professional grading all the way around.

Is there a company not out there that specifically cleans/fixes cards?

It's hard to say with this pic/card, but I would tend to believe it was professionally done?

It may have been professionally done.
The question is why wasn't it "professionally" caught?

I don't know much about restoration of cards, but to me this looks like the first card was up against some acidic paper and the two corners were protected. The result is toning, which happens in old prints that have been framed with non-acid free mats and backing. The process to remove this toning is well established and very common. If my assumptions are correct, it might not have taken a whole lot to remove the toning from this one.

:eek:

There's restoration companies that clean up posters, but that's more accepted in that field.

They aren't cheap but I'm sure some of them would handle cards if given the business. This one certainly paid off for somebody.

Likely not the guy who bought it from Goldin though. They'll probably be ecstatic if they break even at this point.

Because there is no money in that.:eek:

Or another question should be who submitted the card and did they get a favor done. #PSAblewit

I knew I had read about them. I assume they are still in business seeing as their website is still up and running.
http://www.gonewiththestain.com/

THey're not tape stains. The REA listing describes the marks very well, the card is age toned EXCEPT in those odd rectangular patches, so something was resting on or protecting those areas of original color. I want to know how they removed the toning from the rest of the card to get it to match those spots of original color so well.

:eek: is correct!

I highly doubt this fellow Net54 member will reveal his card doctoring secrets but he would do the work for you for a small or large fee.:) http://www.gonewiththestain.com/

Whoa. Incredible.

Sorry, may be a stupid question, but how do we know these are the same 2 cards?

WWG DiMaggio
 

I don't care about its past, it's a PSA 7 now and I'll take it!!!

It's like a fat broad that loses 75 pounds and becomes hot.

If that is really your belief I have some awesome missing color cards I would love to sell you.

Just so you know those women that lose 75 pounds only look hot with clothes on.

Lol
 

So true!!

lolol

:D

Great card, and have zero problem with removing tape and stain residue

If I had the cheddar, I'd still want to own it

Wwg
 

Right !!! It's a darn POP 1 PSA 7. None higher!!!
Why are we even attempting to knock this card?
Any one of us would kill to have this.

Are we talking about shallow "Joe"

Gee John I hope that is not how you came to own it. :eek:

If the restoration is acceptable to the community then there should be no concern about disclosing it. But somehow i am guessing PWCC is not going to do that and the consignor would not want that.

That is a great analogy, but in the eyes of some (like Peter) it would be like she lost that 75 pounds by having marathon sex with hundreds of different men. Yeah, she looks great, but she is tarnished. I happen to agree with you that I don't really care if the card was soaked so long as it grades. The Mona Lisa and the Sisteen Chapel get restored all the time. I don't think any of us would consider those works of art to be tarnished or less valuable because of it. After all aren't baseball cards just small pieces of art?

There is no deception in art restoration. There is a world of deception in baseball card restoration/alteration, because rarely is any of it disclosed, and the whole point is to make a card look better and grade higher while deceiving the grading companies and potential buyers into thinking it's original.

As I said, if the restoration in this case is no big deal, then the consignor should have no objection to its disclosure. But something tells me the consignor would have been furious if PWCC had posted a picture of the SGC 50 in the auction and explained the work done by Towle or whoever did it.

Can't have it both ways. If it's acceptable and even a good thing as some seem to be saying, you should have no objection to disclosure.

All fair points

i highly doubt this card was "just" soaked!

Interesting debate. When I go to sell my house I'm hoping to brush over a couple of 100 flaws/issues. I won't actively deceive anyone, or make any affirmative claims that are false, but I'm going to do everything I can to make the house present well and detract attention away from its shortcomings. Might slap some paint on the side of the house that turns to hell after a few months for some odd reason. May scrub the garage door that always attracts some green mold crud. Does that make me a bad guy?

Did anyone ever answer how we know this is the same card?

Vintage car restoration is acceptable (and disclosed) but collectors pay way way more for untouched, original paint, low mileage jewels that are "condition rarities". The value goes way down if a car(d) is sold as original and then you find out it was reconditioned. That, my friends, is fraud. I would have loved to own that DiMaggio if I could afford it but now it is a lie in a holder.
Scott

People get their panties in a wad when there is a lack of transparency. That is understandable. I have no issue with the cleaner card. It looks great. And I don't blame PSA one bit. I have been told by one of the best graders I know, who has had personal cards conserved and cleaned, said there was literally NO way he could tell anything was done to his cards. It isn't PSA's fault if there is nothing to see.

.

its pretty obvious its the same card...just look at the before and after for christ sake?

Who said it wasn't the same card? I agree, it's pretty obvious.

The same discoloration marks on the front are still visible on both....even the cleaned up card.

Also, same centering and same print/toning dots on back of card.

among others.

Lol, have a second cup Pete!

Maybe a little bleach, a little of this, a lot of that.......


Look at that REA version of the card. If those lighter spots are the original color of the card, then that's not "toning". That's a stain!

I'd guess it was soaked out of a scrapbook. The "toning" is glue residue that seeped into the paper, and the lighter marks are one of three things.

#1. Old tape that covered that area, and then deteriorated

#2. Something similar to stamp mounts

#3. The evidence of whatever tool was used to hold the card in place when it was taking it's chemical bath

others? (plural) Who?

this other...just poured my first cup!!!!

You said among other(s) after that? Have 1 more cup, I am.

What if all it needed was a little wet sand and buff? ;)

I have always found morals depend greatly on if you are the seller or the buyer. If you are the buyer it is unacceptable but if you are the seller it is OK.

so true!

Well, it's back on the market just a few months after being sold by Goldin. I wonder if the winning bidder of that auction had buyers remorse so soon after getting it in hand (or somebody alerted him of the restoration job), and decided he'd be better off without it.

Leon, I disagree that it isn't psa' fault. First of all, the card is off centered and is at best a 6(st). Second, on a low pop card like this, a cursory search of past sales would have easily revealed the alteration. Heck, our own hawk-eyed member caught it and he isn't a professional grader. When your grading evaluation means the difference between a 5k card and a 35k card, you owe the card community that diligence if you proclaim to be the the best in the business. Like JC said,this was obviously submitted by a preferred client and they over-graded without any research whatsoever.

Disagree all you want to. It is a chat board. :) The reality is that if a grader can't see a fault they aren't going to discount the grade for it. No matter how much you disagree it won't change that fact.

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

,

And if you look and still can't see it you, you still can't take off for it.
I might even go as far as to say even IF they did see the before picture, it is STILL graded correctly today.

My guess is that this card has had significant chemical intervention, in which case it is not a "small small" matter as Brent suggests. I hope I am wrong.

And I will go further to say that if he is aware that the card was restored/altered to make a significant difference in its appearance and grade, he is withholding a material fact.

Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!

I have no idea, but to just throw out "significant chemical intervention" is a bit reckless in my view. Heck, who knows, maybe distilled water did it.

I would suspect that they would have to tag it as "altered" if they saw the transformation no? And a 7 with that centering is a stretch in my opinion. I just don't think that I or any of us get a 7 on that card if we sent it in. And why no qualifier on the stain? In this case, the whole card is stained except for the two light areas.

This

Someone can't give an honest opinion now without being accused of being on a payroll? Are you in the media LOL...?

I don't think he meant you Leon. If he did, I withdraw my approval of that portion of the post.

I think it is great to share differing opinions.

++

Water is still a chemical :D

Ok, got me there. But most collectors as you well know, in polls done on this board, have not had the same disdain for water as they have for anything else. And I agree with that sentiment.

According to someone whose opinion I respect highly, the distilled water thing is wishful thinking.

"Your post about the card is essentially correct. It has undoubtedly been submerged in a caustic chemical such as bleach in order to remove the toning and obscure the lighter, untoned areas on the front and back. The type of chemical that has been added has altered the chemical composition of the card and will likely cause the fibers in the cardboard to degrade over time."

This person also believes improvement was made to the corners, based on his close examination of the respective scans.

Just as reckless as your other post. Who is the person? And I think your person is entirely wrong too.

If it will cause long-term deterioration of the card, this goes from a harmless fix, to a full-blown scam.

++This. I guess I see this as black and white. It's altered, period. don't care if it's chemicals or water. But this is not my world of buying, so can't proclaim to know how it affects the market.

I don't see how this can be good for the hobby. It has all the appearances of fraud and deception. Heck, even PSA can't figure it out.

If someone was doing this to the cards I buy (early 70's PSA 9's), I would be disgusted.

BTW, PSA pooffed the thread over there. Someone posted a really nice pair of photos showing both cards side by side. Can someone do that here within the thread?

And who said SGC cards wouldn't cross to PSA?

:)

Thanks

As long as there are no long term effects to the card, I have no problem with it. And, until someone can prove it was more than just a soaking in water (which is acceptable in our hobby), then you're just making assumptions. That said, I do think the grade is a little generous. Looks more like a 6 to me.

Oh, and to blame PWCC for selling it just shows you have an axe to grind wirh Brent.

I don't see anything wrong with soaking cards and other stuff out of scrapbooks and albums with water. I've done it myself many times, though not with anything expensive.

If it doesn't harm the card, and releases it from it's jail. No harm, no foul.

THAT, is not a product of water restoration, distilled or otherwise. The first time, in the REA auction. Yes. No biggie.

To bump it up to a (7)? You could soak an old piece of paper/cardboard with that much toning for days, and it wouldn't come out that clean......and even if it did, the paper would have soaked too much water into it's fibers for too long to recover to it's original state. Like stretching the rubber band in your underwear for too long.

Just my opinion, but I think it's pretty "Cut & Dry" :D

See what I did there? ;)

I knew I was setting myself up for that! Well played, sir. Well played indeed.

On a card whose appearance has changed that much, and in the manner it has changed, what is your basis for assigning the burden of proof to those who believe more than water is involved? From my perspective the burden is on those who claim it's only water.