Any medical intervention north of a Band Aid is going to involve some risk. That risk has to be assessed in the context of the potential benefit, both at an individual and societal level.

Agreed. So what's wrong with waiting until all possible risks have been discovered, and then one can make up their own mind if the benefits out weight the risks? After all, none of the vaccines are even FDA approved at this point.

How many people have died of Covid?

I think this bears repeating.

This is just a snap shot of 20 random days in January. People say they want more data, but then ignore it when it's given to them.

Are you really more afraid of the vaccine, then you are of actual, honest to goodness Covid?



http://site.pugilistica.com/Net54BST...2021JanArs.png

I am not judging anyone for their decision one way or the other.

Honest to goodness? Yes, I am. I'll turn 50 years old in just under 2 months. I haven't been sick in over 45 years (since I was 5 years old). I don't get the flu. I don't catch common colds. I don't even get as much as the sniffles. The last time I was at the doctor was in 1994 when I was required to take a physical to process out of the Army.

To be honest, I do get a flu shot every year and have for decades and maybe that has something to do with my good health, but I am much more afraid of a vaccination than I am of getting sick from Covid. And I've had 2 direct contact exposures where everyone else at the gathering came down with it...except me (and I was tested each time).

When it works well -- and of course in many individuals it doesn't -- the human immune system is a wonder to behold.

so in other words you are bruce willis from that terrible movie unbreakable with samuel jackson. pretty sweet. hope your good fortune continues.

Great question, Dave. How many "have actually" died of covid?

Heat attacks, heart disease, kidney disease, diabetes, respiratory disease, neonatal conditions, diarrhoeal diseases and stroke death numbers are way down. Why is that?
""Covid deaths...??? In 2018 - 2019 in the us the "residual" death total was 744k and 758k. This is a category is used for non autopsy. Remarkable that in 2020 this number went down to 188k? These numbers are from the cdc check them out yourself, there are more"

Why is it I know more people that have died after getting the vaccine than I do those that died of covid?
Why is it, after those that get the vaccine, do they need to continue to wear masks, isolate, and social distance?
Why would I get a vaccine if I have to continue living my life like those that haven't had it, and especially since there is no actual proof that I have seen it actually does anything?
Like what was said above, I have, personally, a better survival rate not getting the vaccine than I do if I get one.

And also like I said before, if you want one, fill your boots, but trying to convince me by calling me and others anti-vaxxers no matter how hard you try with your Liberal shaming tactics, isn't going to work.

Here, watch this Bill Maher video, and don't worry, he attacks both sides equally.
https://youtu.be/Qp3gy_CLXho

...that went completely over your head, didn't it...

"Liberal Shaming Tactics?"

You're the one who just made it political, and you're not really interested in answers to any of your questions, so I'm just going to assume they're all rhetorical and not waste my time. You've already made up your mind. No amount of data or hand-wringing from my end will change that.

I didn't call anybody in this thread an anti-vaxxer. Earlier I used the term "anti-vaxxer nonsense" regarding a crazy theory espousing herd immunity through spreading the actual virus to the entire population rather then locking down or quarantining, or wearing masks. A theory that became obsolete the second a vaccine became available.

That said, are you an anti-vaxxer or not? You're espousing typical anti-vaxxer arguments and views, but don't want to be called an anti-vaxxer. You're certainly not a pro-vaxxer. Is neutral-vaxxer a more acceptable term for you? How about anti-covid-vaxxer? Is that specific enough?

I'll leave with an anecdote from my personal life:

Late Spring/Early Summer of last year I politely asked a couple of plumbers to put a mask on before they came in our house to give a quote. I explained that my wife had lost both her parents to Covid just weeks earlier, and was going to be a bit sensitive about the issue. We would even provide a mask for them, if they didn't have they're own.

You know what one of them did when I mentioned both my wife's parents had died of Covid? He rolled his eyes at me, spit in my driveway, lit a cigarette, and got back in his truck.....then his boss nonchalantly threw on a bandana, came in and looked at our sink, gave us a quote, and left after telling us he wouldn't do any job if he had to wear a mask.

I hate myself to this day for not kicking both of those guys in the ass and off of my property right away. I was so shocked and demoralized by the situation, I thought I had done something wrong. I thought I had to cow-tow and be polite to these assholes, because it would be impossible to find another plumber on short notice in our little town.

Turns out I found another company the very next day, who said they would wear a goddamn scuba outfit if I asked them to.

Shock, turned to shame, which turned to anger.

So, sorry. I decided I'm done being polite (or neutral) to people who don't give two craps about me, or mine, or others around them. Especially when they're so often, so very loud, and outspoken, and opinionated, and unpolite, about their own beliefs and freedoms.



Do you think these numbers from January were manufactured out of thin air?


http://site.pugilistica.com/Net54BST...2021JanArs.png

Assuming your "anti-vaxxer nonsense" was in regard to my post, I really don't think you understood what was being 'espoused'. It isn't a 'crazy theory' but a scientific one and one that works all the time. However in no way was I implying that it should be applied for Covid. While I wouldn't go as far to say 'liberal shaming tactics', you position bias does show in your response.

You do realize that according to the CDC's own website where they list the Covid related deaths, they are just that. Covid related. "Most death certificates (COVID-19 or otherwise) list more than one cause of death."
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisiona...9bhg-hcku/data

Not specifically to you, but in general:
People throw around the 'cold hard facts' about the deaths caused by Covid. But the same people constantly and conveniently ignore the non-death impact on everyone's lives. They talk about science and facts but ignore the science and facts of shortening lifespans of the non-death health impact, such as stress, suicide, etc. You can't harp on one and ignore the other. Likewise you can't use the non-death impact as an argument against masks/quarantine/shutdowns. The depth of the true 'cold hard facts' impact won't even begin to be known until well after this is over. If you truly want to understand the impact, you can't use number of deaths, but how many person-years were lost because of the virus or how we reacted to it. Which is really cold , but the only true measurement of the impact. Not just raw deaths.

And anecdotes are just that.

And for what it's worth, my first Covid shot didn't affect me any different than any other shot I've gotten. Assuming the microchip they implant with the shot doesn't cause any adverse side effects. :)

...about as much as my response went over yours...

I got my second shot yesterday.

As a general comment, not aimed at anybody in particular, according to the CDC there have been 569,771 deaths from covid in the US, and according to the interwebs there were 2,977 deaths on 9-11.

So, if 90% of the covid deaths were actually attributable to some other cause, then there has been the equivalent of a 9-11 event every 3 weeks. since last March.

Worldwide, according to the World Health Organization, there have been 3,128,962 deaths, and again, if 90% were attributable to something else, then there has been a 9-11 event twice every week for more than a year.

Congrats on the 2nd shot Doug.

World wide though right? Not in 2 buldings in downtown manhattan on one day?

Ted "Just making sure I have my facts accurately attributed to something that might make sense to someone somehow" Sherman

A US 9/11-like loss of life every three weeks.
A world-wide loss that size twice each week.

Seems pretty clear, maybe it's not a worthy number?

I get my second shot early next week.:)

Wow, you're right. People who went to work one day killed by terrorists, vs (an overwhelming majority of) people with comorbidities and at the end of their life span


People are people, some are just despicable enough to allude one loss of life to another in order to suit their own agenda or prove their point.


Good for you!

As opposed to those who are despicable enough to dismiss others' suffering in order to suit their own agenda??

Good for you!

PS: Pretty sure allude doesn't mean the same as compare or link, if that's what you were going for.

What an elegant way to say they were gonna die anyways.

You would prefer it sugar coated?

I always wonder if the crowd that thinks wearing a mask is the greatest affront to freedom since the Alien and Sedition Acts exhibit the same behavior when it is time to take their shoes off at the TSA checkpoint.

So you are opposed to things that kill a bunch of people in one location, but if they are spread out then it's ok?

I guess that means that you weren't happy that they crashed planes into buildings, but if they had instead randomly killed 2,977 people scattered all of over, you would have been ok with it?

Doug "just enjoying how you are ignoring the number of people who have died in one situation, but are all worked up about them in another" Goodman



PS - since my initial post 57,576 more people have died, if we again allow the conspiracy theorists and naysayers their 90% of mistaken / faked deaths, that still means that 2 more 9/11 events have happened (albeit scattered around the planet, so not nearly as meaningful as if they had been visiting two buildings in Manhattan).

The one good thing about these threads is that they let you know which side of the aisle the responding members stand.

"No point asking who's to blame
'cos if you're gonna die, if you're gonna die

If you're gonna die, die with your boots on
If you're gonna try, just stick around
Gonna cry, just move along
If you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhBw80Y54gg

On a website dedicated to the discussion of cardboard, that is important ... why?

I can't hold that against them, nothing wrong with debate. I consider myself Fiscally conservative, but socially liberal. I don't think one side or the other is always right, and some may say it's a fool errand to think so.

These test group numbers are skewed. Demographics indicate N54 board members are in the high risk catagory for COVID mortality. This could be problematic for card shows. Nobody WANTS to get sick, and few believe in fate anymore.

Using 9/11 numbers by using COVID deaths makes sense to some people because they feel both are both foreign attacks on US soil. I just don't see how it relates at all. It seems like it is kind of trvializing 9/11.

I guess deaths are deaths in some people eyes. Just like people are people, regardless of how inspiring, health conscience, or contriubuting they are, or have been to society.

Ted "I cant tell if it's lack of Oxygen, or 30 years of sex drugs and roll and roll" Sherman

I got mine because I figured I'd rather take my chances with the shot than with the virus (this is coming from someone who hates needles). I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't get the shot; there are a lot of question marks about it, and reasonable people can look at them and opt out.

Well written. I didn't make the comparison of covid deaths to 9-11, but I understand it in that both killed a large number of Americans. To see that number continue to die weekly or monthly or whatever while people argue about putting on a simple mask while in close contact with strangers is demoralizing. Much like the early conversation where someone brought up WWII deaths.

And forgive me, but I think the loss of fat, old, and sick people are worth mourning, too.

Got my second shot today.:)

Found something useful for my cardhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...89749e8c9d.jpg

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

My wife got vaccinated at the first opportunity (she's a front line worker). I got my second vaccination last month. Can't wait until they have one ready for my kids.

Development of the vaccine was definitely an accelerated process. Of course, the increases in technology (particularly the computing power needed for advanced genomics) have been logarithmic over the past decades, since the country/world last made such a concerted, wholerhearted, and funded effort to develop a vaccine for an emergency.

Anyway, everyone must make their own decisions, but I get the feeling that a lot of the people waiting don't really understand the science behind these vaccines, which is understandable. Really a public service campaign to educate the public on how these vaccines work, how they were developed and tested, and the risks involved would do a great service to the country.

Because you are in a section of the site titled "off topic", there are plenty of cardboard conversations in the "on topic" sections

I would point out that I was using 10% of covid death numbers, so in actuality I was trivializing covid.


Yes, I am a person you thinks that dying is a bad thing even for those who have been deemed to not be inspiring enough or contributed enough to society, because I like to think that those people might have done good things that I am unaware of.

Doug "it's been 37 years" Goodman

Your response doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, this is the "off topic" section. But if you look at the where you click for this section, you will see this underneath:

"General Chat and off topic stuff. Please no politics or religion." [I've taken the liberty of bolding the pertinent portion.]

So when we're being politely asked not to discuss politics, why is Cliff's statement -

- even remotely defensible in this "off topic" section?

But more importantly, my initial question hasn't been answered by Cliff or you. In a more general sense, in either this section or in any of the sections of this forum -

In any section of this forum, why would it be a "good thing" to "know which side of the aisle the responding members stand?"

That's a pre-2015 flip. Mexican fake?

I got the second shot on Tuesday and holy BLEEP did I feel like crap all day yesterday. Would do it again.

I went into town last week and had lunch (Taco Bell) and got the first shot (Moderna.) The only side effect was that I seemed to be gassy the rest of the day.

In the old Sesame Street tones.............. "One of these things.... is NOT like the others". :D


On a more related note : I have had a load of people close to me get vaccinated. The vast majority reported little or no issues. A few did, but it was certainly nothing major.
Personally, I will NOT be getting the vaccine. I may rethink it in 4-5 months though, after some time has elapsed and we have more information under our belts.

I have had Covid TWO TIMES now, yep I'm one of the lucky few. :mad: (On my most recent - I was told point blank, cases have been decreasing, this makes no sense..... you don't even really have any symptoms other than a bad dry headache. We can only speculate you caught a newer strain, but we would never know for sure unless we thoroughly tested your sample")

I just got over the second bout a few months back and 2 separate doctors told me "You would be a fool to get vaccinated now, wait 6 or so months, when everyone else's begin to wear down. Then you will be smart to get it."

I'll say this. My doctor told me this when I got it the first time, which was March of last year. Also realize at that time, its right when the virus paranoia was at an all time high. They said possibly millions would ultimately die.
My Doctor told me point blank........."Do NOT come in, you are 49, basically healthy and will get over it."

That kind of told me right then and there exactly how "deadly" this is for the general population.

Then report Cliff for being political, and report me for being anti-organized religion.

That should solve your problem.

+1

I wish Doug and Cliff could solve my problem but since it is old age I am not hopeful

First time really seeing this thread. Yawl don't report anything just be cool. Try to keep politics out of the pandemic even though it's almost impossible. Thanks

I got my 2nd shot 3 days ago. It felt like a light Charlie horse and that was about it. The first shot had no side effects.
I have tried to convince my 24 yrs. old daughter, the data scientist who graduated magna cum laude in statistics, and she won't do it. She says she might later but it's too soon for her. I just shake my head. I can't make her do it :). Statistically it is a no brainer to me.
I think everyone should get one but it's an individual choice. To each their own.

.

That's really off-center for a 10.

That is what I dislike the most. The fact this info is never shared nor talked about on MSM.
Just get the vaccine, get the vaccine, get the vaccine as soon as you can!!
If I didn't know any better, I'd swear big pharma and crooked politicians were more behind this supposed pandemic than anyone else.

Like I've said before, with a 97%-98% recovery rate in the vast majority of the population, why is this also not talked about?

I'm sure if these 2 healthy women were given all the facts or their doctors told them what yours told you, they might be still be alive.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...zeneca-vaccine
https://globalnews.ca/video/7815211/...zeneca-vaccine

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202101/1212939.shtml

Also, another thing that I can't understand is why are some who have had covid and fully recovered from it getting the vaccine?
We are being brainwashed that we need medication and/or shots for every ailment under the sun instead of relying on our own immune system.
Again, blindly ignoring or silencing how rich pharma and others are getting from all these vaccines doesn't mean it is not happening.

So far, 5,800 fully vaccinated people have caught COVID-19 anyway in U.S., CDC says.
About 5,800 people who have been vaccinated against coronavirus have become infected anyway, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tells CNN.

Some became seriously ill and 74 people died, the CDC said. It said 396 -- 7% -- of those who got infected after they were vaccinated required hospitalization.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...says-1.5388245

I'm sure the usual suspects will be along shortly to slam and discredit me for telling them another side of the story exists in all this that is being silenced, but if that makes those that are incapable of thinking for themselves or questioning anything, then so be it if that makes them feel better. :cool:

The problem we have is that many older folks' immune systems don't work that well, and the same is true for other folks who don't take the best care of themselves. That, combined with the fact that this virus is quite contagious and is a very efficient killer of people with compromised respiratory function and certain other issues.

No solution is perfect and there are downsides and trade offs to all of them and there needs to be careful assessment and openness, but framing the discussion in conspiratorial terms doesn't IMO advance the ball much.

https://nypost.com/2021/04/07/the-us...ine-passports/
https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/...ys-new-report/

Not at all. Where was I complaining about him being political? I never did.

I'm just trying to understand the "one good thing about these threads is that they let you know which side of the aisle the responding members stand." Why is it a good thing to know? What's the benefit?

You trying to change the subject to complaining about politics doesn't answer the question: What's the benefit of knowing "which side of the aisle the responding members stand?"

Jesus would never be caught playing shitty Slayer riffs....
Even HE has more taste.

Dmitri Young submitted it...