Maybe it's just me but one of the posters on this trail just has nothing positive to say or add and is only offering negative comments. I refuse to drop to that level. Such posters should be blocked like they do on Facebook.

The National is what it is because of the trailblazers that paved the way. The National Committee works very hard and they deserve a lot of credit for weighing all of the options and making difficult decisions for all of us. You just can't keep everyone happy all of the time.

I apologize for my tone. That said, I am only referencing, if not directly quoting, what you said. Yes the National Committee’s decisions are disappointing, but what set me off was the sense of entitlement oozing from your first post.

There. I’m done. Chicago or bust.

Cool. But I do feel that many of us who have been doing shows for decades should have some deserved "priority" for setting up at the National. I guess you can call it "entitled".

I have done all but 4 of the Nationals; I have promoted over 300 baseball card shows; and I have set up at well over 1,000 shows over the last 46 years. Believe it or not, there were some months in the 70s and 80s and 90s where I worked every day of the week and also every day on the weekends for months in a row. I was also out every night buying collections.

Yeah, I have done a lot but have enjoyed every minute of it. I believe that we all should be positive about our hobby experiences. I even continue to buy collections and have bought three large collections over the past 2 months.

Life is good. So everyone stay safe!!

I think the greater Dallas area would be a wonderful location for, if not a National, an exceptionally large regional show. That area has so much going for it.

I'd be up for it. Lots of direct flights, centrally located, and a very accessible hub. Why not Dallas?

That's too bad - I've been to several Nationals in Cleveland and thought they were just fine. Would be nice to see the show hit a little further west.

To be fair in the DFW area; Kyle Robertson already runs a nice fairly large regional show at a really spiffy fairly new location. Not just because I can walk to show from my COMC office and/or it's 10 minutes from my house the area is great for a larger regional show. Just off a major highway; tons of places to eat nearby, hotels available. We already have the large regional show here in DFW.

Yes I would love the NSCC to be able to use the Dallas Convention Center. But trust me, most of us living here would prefer not to be here during a NSCC and to go somewhere 10-15 degree colder as a high temperature.

Rich

It's not an easy solution.

Yes, dealers that have been loyal to the show should have some priority. But, when that priority is coupled with corporate booths, it means that a good 2/3 of the show floor is gone, leaving local or newer dealers with the back of the room. I remember doing the last Anaheim show. You walk in and see the same dealers you always see (think Mr. Mint and his minions) and then the corporate booths. Those of us in the back of the room knew it would be a good half-hour to 45 minutes for us to see any traffic once the doors opened.

Maybe the way to reward loyal dealers is that they get first dibs on tables - not location - just tables. There are only X number of tables at a show, so having priority to get one could be a reward. But once that's done, table assignment should be totally random. And I know corporate booths bring in money for the promoters, but come on - some kind of limit on their space or maybe in an adjacent room would serve dealers better.

And let's not forget, the "trailblazers" started on the West Coast.

Just my 2cents.

Every time the National location comes up for debate there are always the same comments and complaints. You know, it's ok if you aren't able to go to the National for a year because it's on the west coast. You won't die or anything. And the west coast collectors deserve to have the National as much as the east coast collectors. If you can't go one year, then boohoo for you. Stop whining and just get over it. I can only go when it's in AC and I love it when I get there. Everyone else is always like, "AC is the worst...AC is a dump...I'll never go back to AC...etc." But I love it in AC because it's the only time I can get there. And I'm not bitching about not being able to go because it's in Chicago every damn year. I'm just happy when it's here. So stop complaining and go when you can and enjoy it.

I recall the Atlanta National back in the mid 1990's as being exciting and packed. Perhaps my perception was clouded by serious discussions I had with Kevin Struss, who was with SCP at the time, for a PSA graded vg/ex T206 Honus. The card had been consigned by Bill Mastro and was a recent discovery.

But I always thought Atlanta was a great demographic choice for the National; the East Crowd could easily and economically fly in, the South would obviously be served, plenty of good hotels and restaurants and then Georgia with a rich baseball history.

To this day, I don't know what went wrong and Atlanta was dropped from the National's rota. Living in Florida, as I do, it would make my logistics easier to attend if reconsidered.

That's too bad the National will no longer be in Cleveland. It was always easy to drive & park at the IX Center. It now looks like the National will end up being in Chicago every single year.

There are many locations/venues that can't host the National for one reason or another:

Some venues are too small
Some cities don't have enough hotel rooms
Some venues are not convenient to airports
Some venues have union legal stuff that makes it not possible
Some venues charge too much for having events in their building
Some cities are not good baseball towns so they're voted no
Some venues don't want it scheduled too far in the future, so voted no.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but these are the major ones.

John:

To be honest and I was with Beckett at both times (92 and 99) and frankly Atlanta was a disappointment both times. The 1999 National was frankly terrible and the 92 one was not good considering how hot the hobby was at the time. Atlanta is not an active hobby area.

Rich

It's not like we're asking a lot out here on the West Coast. How about one every 8 or 10 years? I mean, I know some of the dealers don't want to travel out here, but we have a lot of people here in the hobby willing to spend money.

This is now a decade-long (and longer) discussion. Here is this classic from 2009

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ht=Mike+Berkus

Rich

Rich, thanks. Now I know. Must have been the Honus.

I hope organizers aren't betting the farm on a 2021 Natty happening. Covid certainly won’t be sorted out by winter when I assume planning starts, and changes for a show that big need a very wide berth. Hope I’m wrong, but if I was them I’d be investigating the possibility of a Chicago 2022 return.

I've talked enough with Mr. Broggi to know he (and the other National promoters and the dealer board) will not rush in and have a show unless they feel it is safe. They are planning to have the 2021 show but not betting the farm on the NSCC as it was in 2019. I don't speak for anyone but there is enough room in Rosemont to re-adjust if needed.

We can have shows but we have to be careful thereof.

Rich

Good luck to anyone making decisions about mask rules. That in and of itself could be a nightmare.

Even here is Texas if the masks are mandated by county, state, etc then most of the people will honor that request. Kyle's August show had about 90 percent compliance. Not perfect but much better than June's show.

Rich

Absent a vaccine or good treatments and everyone behaving like a grown-up instead of an entitled child, I am not going regardless. Only an asshole gets killed for baseball cards.

Regardless of vaccines, treatments, or compliance, masks are going to be around and a hot button issue for the next couple of years at least, I would think. I personally wouldn’t go to an indoor event with that many people without 100% enforced compliance, and even then I’d be on the fence. I know others feel differently it’s their right to do so....but my point being, I’m not sure if they’ll be able to make enough people comfortable with the situation to make it worth having the show in tue next couple of years. The end question is, it better to try and have it be a flop attendance-wise, or not have one at all?

Dependent on vaccines/masks/large indoor gatherings, maybe sometime next year, we could see the National morp into several large, regional shows. Less people, smaller venue, more (relatively speaking) safety.

I sense that many people believe the National, as is, has grown into something never intended by the original "trailblazers." Perhaps this give the collecting community the opportunity to get back to something closer to the original.

Well, you could definitely pick up the entire corporate section and move it to another room...or just drop it in the ocean with the 1952 Topps high numbers.

I understand the draw of one big show every year for several reasons I won’t go into. I do wonder how masks would inhibit the social piece of the show, which is a major one for most attendees. It’s a crappy situation for all involved. I do think that some careful planning and consideration could produce a pretty awesome virtual National. I know someone tried one, which I’m sure provided a lot of takeaways. It would require a patchwork (video, audio, IM) of, or possibly its own platform, but it could be cool. Not the same, but cool. You could still charge admission, dealer fees, everything. You could have speakers, lectures, special signings. You can still have breaks. They could run ads (commercials, basically) for corporate sponsors. These could offset the platform costs easily since you have no rent, union fees, etc to deal with. Yes it would be a logistical challenge, but anything that happens will be anyway, so what the hell.

I will assure you Masks had almost no effect on socialization at Kyle's August show. Bigger issues would be with physical distancing what can the corporates do and the autograph areas. The card show area can actually with a few adjustments continue as it was.

Rich

Quick question: At a virtual convention, if I make a hot dog at home, do I have to send someone $12.00?

Without question :)

Im sure there’s plenty of physical space. I was speaking more to people’s comfort level (and how that would effect their willingness to go at all) as opposed to the geographical logistics. Im not saying its not possible...just curious how it would pan out. There’s really only one way to find out!

I can't say I disagree with that logic in any way. There are a whole bunch of people who want nothing to do with going out in public or to a show at this point. I certainly understand their position and I'm not going to change their beliefs.

On the other hand, there were approximately 1500 people who attended Kyle's 3-day August show (up from 1000-1100 in June) and I have not heard of anyone getting Covid-19 from those who were there. *Granted I don't know everyone*.

All I'm saying is by Chicago in 2021 I suspect there will be another group of people really anxious to go out and see cards in person rather than virtually.

Rich

A west coast national is overdue.

Here's a thought, though just had it so likely to be full of holes...

For a start, it could be outside. Open air, muuuuch safer - especially if done in concert with masks.
How, you might ask? Cardboard needs to be protected from the very least likely chance of rain....

I'm thinking in a place like Phoenix or Vegas.
In a venue set up under the already established protective canopies of....
The Parking Spot. Or similar. This image is of the one in Houston.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...ouston.jpg.png

Already fenced for the protection of cars.
They're low on business because of Covid and downturn in travel...

Or similar, as I said.
Open air, covered. That would do it, no?

I don't think it's a bad idea in general--probably because I was thinking about that too :) No way it could here in Phoenix in August though. We had more than 50 days of 110 or higher this year--smashing the old record by about 20 days. The first of August would be an oven, and Vegas wouldn't be much different.

Still, I've been to some small outdoor shows that went well, at least from the customers' perspective--I'd be curious to hear feedback from the dealers on this. Definitely something out of the routine, it might make for a nice change of pace. BTW, it doesn't have to be with an asphalt parking lot. It can be on the grass with portable tenting or canopies; again, though, it would require some different kinds of planning and contingency preparedness. Actually sounds like a real good time.

Hey NL, if you were thinking it too then it couldn't have been a terrible idea!:D

I agree re temperature, was actually imaging an opportunity to do the whole "East Coast AND West Coast" National shows through this configuration, perhaps with the West Coast one running in March at approx Spring Break time, and an East Coast one later in the year closer to standard calendar...but maybe first week August. That would keep it warm as possible for outdoors in lets say a Philly locale, but equally spectacular in Vegas/Phoenix/Houston during March....

I was just liking the ease of current setup of the parking lot so that dealers could have their merch brought practically (on wheels) into the facility, everything stays pretty clean, you hire 20 guards round the clock to sit at various points around the perimeter to protect everyone's tables day and night.
Some of my favourite festivals and and trade shows (mainly Art) have been outdoors, has an entirely different feel and mood.

Anyway, something to think about as it would definitely help in terms of health and safety for attendees.

I think its an interesting idea... like the Brimfield Fair in MA. One issue would be lodging. Any open field big enough to accommodate the show likely would be outside of a city, where lodging en masse might not exist. I do like the outside idea, though.

How about a HS or college football field? They’re privately owned so you wouldn’t have deal with a municipality and there’s usually several in or very close to major urban areas.

With all the collector unhappiness with the NSCC (event locations, new dealers can't get space, too much space given to corporates, etc.), I'm quite surprised that some enterprising show promoter hasn't already created a "Winter National" or a "Spring Training National" as a better alternative to the NSCC. I have little doubt such an event would be successful.

That's what I think every time I read the calls for the National to take place somewhere else. If there is demand for it, would like to see it happen.

The outdoor thing is a great idea but I think you'd have to go somewhere like Los Angeles for it because of the potential for rain in eastern and midwest cities. We are basically dry here from May through September.

Wind. Wind is the first thing that comes to mind when I think about an outdoor show. How annoying is it when your napkins get blown away while eating outside? You spend most of your meal trying to devise new ways of anchoring those suckers down, so they don't ride the breeze when you deign to take a bite of your cheeseburger.

My daydream always has it at a baseball field rather than football, in particular a moderate to high-grade minor league facility. Obviously the team would have to be out of town for several days to make it available, but given the shaky status of minor league baseball these days, who knows what might be available.

Just for grins, I checked the website of the St. Paul Saints, an independent team partly owned by comedian Bill Murray, who frequents their games (at least back in normal times). This facility and no doubt dozens of others can be found around the country, and offers itself as a venue for weddings, concerts, festivals, etc. FYI, the light rail can take you to the ballpark, to the Mall of America, both airport terminals and Target Field. Here, take a virtual tour.
http://chsfield.com/venue/virtual-tour
http://chsfield.com/venue/event-spac...erts-festivals

I thought about wind too, which is why I believe a mostly enclosed baseball stadium would provide a decent windbreak. As for rain, I thought about the canopies I see at Costco every now and then, which are not very expensive and are bought by a lot of tail-gaiters. These would not be of much help in a driving storm, but they would be great to shield at least some of the elements, and would be nice to have to keep the sun from beating down on the dealers all day. Surely there are more complex and effective coverings available if people give it some thought and planning.

A baseball stadium would also have great seating for those looking to take a load off, and concession stands should not be a problem. Depending on configuration, there could be grandstand overhangs providing some protection also, and who knows, maybe tables could be set up in the concourses. Also, many have meeting or gathering rooms that could handle, say, a net54 dinner :)

Val, while I too am a bit surprised no one else has tried (that we know of), I think one of the biggest hurdles is actually getting the corporate booths and autograph guests (tri-star) willing to put out a 2nd show. I don't see the motivation they would have to just drop the current show and, while you and I may not care, i don't think the national would be what it currently is without them.

Each table will be supplied with a rock. Problem solved.

I like this. I was thinking along the same lines as far as availability. There's got to be countless ballparks that would love to sign a big event contract right now, probably at a very favorable rate, too.

The ramp-up to putting on a major show is steep.

Even just running a local show is expensive and time-consuming. It isn't just decorating the barn and puttin' on a show. Minimally, if you assume a venue with its own supplies (tables, chairs, etc.) you have to locate and book the venue, secure insurance, plan marketing and execute, draft vendor contracts, secure required business licenses, get vendors and all required documents from them. The day of the show you have to make sure everything is good to go, arrange an orderly move-in and set-up, staff and run the show, then coordinate move-out and break-down, all of which is like herding cats. If you go for autograph guests or other special stuff you need to arrange, market and pay for that too. And you will bleed money for a while trying to get things going unless you have access to a venue at little or no cost.

Thanks Adam, you just shut this thread down for good with that dose of reality. LOL

So you don’t want a fish sandwich?

Ummm, no?

Don't get me wrong: running a show was great fun too, but it is a lot of work and if you are planning to do anything more ambitious than a small local show you really do need a lot of time and a hefty bankroll to devote to it. if I was retired, for example, and had some help to do it, and COVID was over with, I would definitely consider starting, running on a regular basis, and hopefully growing a small show. Last time round we (myself and two partners) broke even on our third (and last) show but by then we'd lost our collective stomach for doing more. Oh, also add the accounting and security to the work list.

I vote for Pittsburgh. It has one of the nicest stadiums in the country. Plus I only live 7 miles away from it [emoji41]


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It’s a Ladies Man quote. I knew it was a longshot :)

Just a random thought
 

This has nothing to do with the topic, but I remember some of the smaller shows back in the 1990's where we had to bring our own tables.

I've been to maybe half the Nationals in the last 10 years. Didn't make a single notable pickup; just a handful of cheaper items that I actually could have done without. Any sales I had could have been done outside of the National setting, so there's another strike against my ever returning.

The area of Cleveland surrounding the I-X isn't exactly a hopping place for things to do, so that won't be missed. It was a huge cut above going to Baltimore, with its weather just half a degree below hell. It was also wonderful to be able to drive right up and park at the I-X, both as a dealer and as someone walking in the front door. That will be sorely missed.

Prior to 10 years ago, I had my greatest National successes in Cleveland. After constant disappointments when the show was in other cities, I could always think positively about the next Cleveland National. That streak of success ended with the last colossally disappointing Cleveland show. After that, I decided I'm done with the convention altogether. How many years do I have to walk by the same dealers with the same inventories? And I'm paying for this privilege? It would be nice to see some new faces set up and maybe, just maybe, new material. Let me know when that happens; I gave up.