1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 8 in PWCC Auction
 

Hi everyone. My apologies as this is post WWII card, but PWCC has the below 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 8 in their next auction. Will be interesting to watch the bidding.

https://dw7591lwb84er.cloudfront.net...c5NTI2ZWVjNCJ9

That exact card was just sold in Heritage's auction on Feb 24, 2019 (less than 4 1/2 months ago), for $456K.


Steve

Unimprovable condition!

#becausewetried

Nice card; consignor must be tone deaf or unaware of the current scandal.

The consignor might be aware of the current situation and not care. It could be a planned sale. It could be sold for a number of reasons.

This scandal is going to blow over just like every storm in the hobby has up to this point.

I am surprised so many people think this is going to be the demise of high grade trading cards.

The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is the ultimate symbol of Americana and the price might be higher or it might be lower but you are never going to see the demand for this card evaporate.

There are some who have been calling for PWCC to cancel all of their auctions and others who hope Brent ends up in jail. This might be the ultimate FU saying we still get the goods.

One revelation from this recent situation we have confirmed is that you can use a hidden reserve on PWCC auctions so the odds of this going cheap are quite low I believe.

I still believe this will go lower than the Heritage auction. The consignor will lose a big chunk of money and think to himself, "Why the hell did I consign with them? I don't need any help in losing money". That's just my prediction though.

My opinion...

Dont delude yourself. Its Brent's card. Like any crook he was going to try the ultimate caper, only now it's getting sold to pay his attorney.

Who knows..

but a lot of times you will hear a collector after a big ticket purchase just trying to get their money back to 'focus on a new direction' in their collection

It seems like this new 'focus' happens after a big ticket purchase...

thus far not that big of deal....ask 50 random people at the National. how many will think they are 'victims', how many will even know about this scandal...survey says....

Heck how are they supposed to know about the double secret probation

So what you are saying is he bought it in the Heritage auction and now is forced to liquidate it to pay attorneys fees. Correct?

Makes as much sense as "this will all blow over"

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Do you still collect autographed cards?

I assume you do.

Here’s a crazy idea .... how about just deciding based on their track record that you will stop doing business with PWCC (if you ever did). Chronicling on a daily basis their alleged fraud for your remaining time on this spinning orb seems a little wasteful.

Sure do, but narrow it to Only SGC graded t206s with shaky signatures.

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My thoughts too.

this is certainly possible!

And please dont compare Apples to Eron David, I give you more credit than that.

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+1

The obvious point is there have been loads of issues with autographs and people still collect them. I believe the same will prove to be true with cards.

A comment was made in a thread I read last night about the range of alterations and what is okay and what isn't okay. I for one as I have said was surprised when I learned that soaking and spooning were all deemed acceptable so it is clear there is a wide range of opinions on what constitutes alteration.

The card that was presented that Sotheby's expert had "restored" gives further credence to the art and antique car analogies. I wonder how many of the collectors that purchase these relics actually care. It might be a lot it might not be as many as people think.

I continue to believe though it is naive to think that if Picasso's can be restored and collector cars can too to mimic their original state that trading cards somehow can't and wont be.

It will not be the demise for graded, but I think a correction is on the way. It won't be overnight.

In general, yes, the 52 Mantle will always be a symbol of Americana. Demand will not evaporate. This particular Mantle's final sale price is tainted, as well as ALL of PWCC'S prices.

Bobby at VCP should remove all PWCC sales prices from their services. Keeping the sales data on his site is knowingly selling false data to his customers. At the very least there should be a PWCC disclaimer. The push for this is coming.

It's not an "FU" to those who want justice. To my knowledge, this Mantle wasn't advertised like previous high "calibur" cards. A 52 Mantle PSA 8 would be pushed on all social media outlets, email blitzes, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but it just popped up on their next auction with little to no push? It's likely a Brent card being sold to pay attorney fees and reimburse customers for cards THEY altered.

Bobby still has a PWCC ad covering his front page.

What would the card need to reside in a '10' holder? sharper corners?? It's a big gamble, but if you have done all this "so far", I don't see why not.

Removing PWCC sales from VCP would be a horrible idea. There are thousands and thousands of legit sales that must be taken into consideration that would be removed. This would give an even more false sense of card values.

I am not sure where you guys come up with these theories. There is a lot of speculation out there that to me is dangerous and inflammatory.

Yes the lower left corner is clearly an issue.

There are lots of quick flips that take place in trading cards that work and many that don't.

I just think it is very speculative to assume that this is Brent's card and he is selling to pay for his potential legal issues.

I must be missing this, why do people think it's Brent's card? Is it because nobody would consign it to him in this environment?

If he is buying back all the bad cards does anyone else think that PSA could be taking care of him on the back end??

I am one of these people. Every time they continue to sell a tainted PSA card, they increase PSA's liability against the grade guarantee. They are conspiring against PSA by selling their cards. I'm not saying it's bad to sell a PSA 8 Mantle right now; I'm saying it's bad to consign it through PWCC.

When I emailed Steve Sloan to recommend he have the buyers of PWCC cards return them to Brent, I gave him the reasoning that if the sale never happened, the grade guarantee doesn't come into play. Why would PSA pay off cards that were doctored and submitted by Moser or Brent if they didn't have to? Wouldn't that be a fiduciary issue their stockholders would want to know about?

For me it's just an educated guess. Could be wrong.

PwCC and mosers contentions will be they had no idea we didn’t doctor any cards, prove it! You guys are supposed to be the Experts with the guarantee ...you slabbed them. Make it right....See in my mind both companies are at fault PSA can’t consistently miss that many bad cards, if they are they really suck at their jobs…… Both companies are covering their asses... It’s going to be very hard to prove that PWCC Or Moser
Allegedly doctored any cards........

David- I don't expect the hobby to collapse over this scandal, but I would likewise be shocked if this entire matter was swept under the carpet and ignored.

PSA needs to acknowledge that they have to produce a better product, and as many collectors as possible should know about this. Then they can decide how they want to proceed. If they want to continue paying world's records for everything, at least they will be doing it with their eyes open.

OK, that was funny. :D

Do you have a source for this?

It is on their website. Starts July 5th I see.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/curr...page=50&page=1


I guess. There are nearly 400 Mantle cards coming for sale this week.

Must be a lot of stupid people out there.

I see it everyday. Just listen to a politcal forum for proof.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

Only ~15 (I may have counted incorrectly) of the Mantles are blessed with stickers.

Does that mean only 15 are "conserved"?

Are the folks that bid on the stickered cards the stupid ones?

or ......

Are the 385 folks who didn't get their Mantles conserved the stupid ones?

or .....

Are the 385 folks hopeful that Moser will bid on their card(s)?

or ......

Are both true and all 400 people who buy them stupid?

If I don't bid with PWCC, am I stupid?

Are there any contingency plans to increase the size of the Vault in the near future?

Alex, I'll take PWCC for $1000

Why are house guests like dead fish? They begin to stink after three days.

This guy from Blowout sums it up perfectly.

"You have to be mentally challenged to buy from pwcc"

Nothing Will Change....People are Naive and Ignorant.....

A Fool and His Money Are Soon Parted

I used to wonder the same often. The standard retort was that Picasso's and many other works of art are one of a kind; sports cards - even really rare and expensive ones - generally aren't.

Where it matters in reality I believe is whether or not Joe Blow Zillionaire collector of macho-ridiculously-expensive sports cards thinks it matters. And to date I doubt many of those types have even considered the comparison question.

Is anyone else tired of the narrative that "if you don't think or act exactly as I do, you must inherently be less intelligent than I am?"

I have a client that owns close to 20 1950's classic cars and he built a home with a museum attached that appears to be part of the home. When you tour this museum/garage and see how beautiful and near perfect the cars are it reinforces anything is possible.

He has a rare car from the 50's where there are only three known and his has the rare hubcaps that were limited edition. One or two are re-manufactured and the others are refurbished. The car is mint and is a perfect restoration.

In the car world there is an expectation that the cars have been worked on. In the vintage card world it seems there is the same but to what degree.

Of course but I have dealt with differing opinions from the second I started posting online about cards and just expect it. It hasn't proven to be too smart to take the other side of my arguments.

You are clearly the foremost wrestling card collector on the forum.

No one else--just you. You're a moron. :rolleyes:

Is it the same base, unspoken expectation that it's simply not reasonable for classic vintage cars to be totally in untouched, factory NOS condition today - but that for cards somehow that might be possible? You can shove a Honus Wagner card in a book for a century, same is not possible with a car? To me it's still something unspoken like this to where we still just unthinkingly want to downgrade a card for any type of alteration. Brent obviously had horrible timing in trying to start a "conservation" discussion a few months back due to what he was up to, but even if not for that - it's not a dicussion that many collectors even want to approach.

Yes the timing was poor.

I admittedly do not know what to think about it. Seeing pristine looking cards that came out of tobacco canisters or cracker jack boxes has never really made sense to me. Once I started learning more about the older cards from this forum and hearing about the techniques many use that are considered okay it became clear to me that what I thought was the norm wasn't the norm.

Brent makes it very clear in that video that there are quite a few cards that have been "conserved". He has a very matter of fact look on his face and with being so connected to the hobby and seeing thousands upon thousands of cards I think it is clear he is right. Whether one thinks it is the right opinion or belief appears to be up for debate.

I do find it odd that some who are totally okay with soaking which in my view is attempting to improve the cards appearance or restore it is okay but other methods are worthy of the death penalty.

In life many try and justify wrong doing by saying well others do it or it is not as bad as killing someone etc. but once that line is crossed it is crossed and now you are in new territory.

I can't get in the head of someone buying these cards so I will leave what is okay or acceptable up to them and as I said there may be many of these collectors that are perfectly fine with "conservation" and would rather look at a much nicer card. I have to assume that many of these same collectors have exposure to other high end collectible asset classes and trading cards appears to be the only area where it is taboo but yet still accepted.

Very complicated topic that is for sure.

As a kid who started collecting in the late 80's, it was generally unheard of to find even 1950's and 60's Topps cards in super great shape. There were multiple card shops in virtually every town around me back then, but the ones that carried vintage usually had lower grade stuff at best. I remember being excited not because of the card's condition, but because "Hey, that's Hank Aaron."

In more ways than one today maybe the loss of that sentiment about collecting is really to blame.

I started collecting in 85 as a six year old kid and wasn't paying any attention to the older cards. Some years later I would see cards in the cases at shops and none were nice.

I do think there are some cards out there that clearly survived in great condition but how many is clearly up for debate.

I started in '86 at age 9. Collected just Topps wax for a year or so before biting hard into vintage (back then just called "old") cards. EX range was super nice for a '50s or '60s card, tobacco cards were virtually never seen unless you were at a huge show, and then they were not in great shape. It does seem odd to me even before the PWCC mess that seemingly so many prewar cards in ridiculously high grade seemed to come out of the woodwork, but at the time I thought well, we have the internet now. The market is able to allocate more efficiently. But where were all those cards back at shows circa 1990? I'm admittedly small town, never went to the National or anything. But the whole thing still seems kind of odd.

Huh? Spooning deemed acceptable? Where did you read that? I don't think anyone on this forum deems spooning of cards an acceptable practice.

It's ok with a significant other though.:eek:

But I like forking a whole lot better

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I read just yesterday someone say they have read plenty of times that spooning out a wrinkle is okay.

Using chemicals on cards as long as they don't smell after has been stated as okay.

I would have never dreamed that the same crowd that is upset would be okay with that.

The majority of people saying it is OK are the ones doing it.

One Note on 1952 Topps Mantles. Remember Al Rosen found that cache of unopened 1952 Hi #s circa 1986. Those cards almost all came out clean and sharp and I could tell whenever I saw a find card at shows for the next few years. This card could be (and may well be) an absolutely legit 8.

Regards
Rich

Yes, I know which comment you are referring to and I think he was just talking out of his a** when he made that statement about everyone being OK with spooning cards.

"Hi, I'm Bob, and I think it's totally OK with spooning cards! I just spooned my 51' Bowman Mantle last night! Wanna' see it? Hehe!"

Have you ever read anything like that on here, David? I haven't and I've been on here for quite a while.

And I also don't believe that people on this forum would be OK with soaking cards in chemicals. Some of these chemicals can turn your card brittle and then you know what happens next, right?

Cleaning with chemicals is generally regarded I would think as a lesser offense than trimming and recoloring, with crease removal somewhere in between, but it's all bad in my opinion.

CONSERVING is defined as: a careful preservation and protection of something

PRESERVATION is defined as: to keep safe from injury, harm, or destruction : protect.

RESTORING is defined as: to return (something) to an earlier or original condition by repairing it, cleaning it, etc.

FRAUD is basically defined as: intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value

When you send your cards in to PSA/SGC/BGS you are CONSERVING your valuables by having them encased. Shellacking a baseball was intended to CONSERVE.

Brent and possibly Moser bought cards, cracked them out of their slabs, RESTORED them and then committed FRAUD by not disclosing the work they did.

Nobody has said that this card has any issues. Only that it's bizarre they would use PWCC to sell it at this moment.

1000% AGREED!!! A Heritage purchase to an Ebay flip in under 5 months. And to sell it on Ebay thru a seller who is currently embroiled in a scandal. Seems like awful timing to me.

Bobby you probably have VCP. If you do how many PSA 8 Mantle's have been sold in a public forum in the past 12 months?

I am no expert on any of this and just read what people have to say. As I said it seems that some of these methods that I would think constitute alteration are accepted by some and once you go from virgin cards to an attempt to improve their appearance you have started the process and there doesn't appear to be a 100% consensus on the matter.

Could be a buying opportunity.

Yes

According to PSA's auction prices tracker, three PSA 8's, and one PSA 8.5 have sold (all via Heritage Auctions) in the last 12 months.

Steve

I don't know what this means, but now, when you go to PWCC's website, this PSA 8 1952 Topps Mantle no longer shows up.

Steve

It is gone.

Perhaps this thread caused someone to change their mind.

According to VCP the latest PSA 8 Mantles since the beginning of 2017:

2/24/19 Heritage $456,000
11/16/18 Heritage $430,200
8/19/18 Heritage $420,000
5/6/18 REA $300,000
2/24/18 Heritage $360,000
11/17/17 Heritage $408,000
8/20/17 Heritage $384,000
5/6/17 Memory Lane $462,000
2/25/17 Heritage $660,000

This card will bring a ton of money, just watch....

right all of the people piping in were going to only bid 350k on it...

I thought that replaced buy the card not the holder as the new net54 motto. The posts criticizing fellow collectors for how they choose to spend their money are getting old as well.

If true that's a shame. I highly doubt those commenting in this thread were bidding any way. It's usually good for the market when big cards like that go to auction. I think it would have done well.

Maybe if someone else was selling it.

Because most of us already have one here.

The more you see, the more you know that Brent Mastro is a common criminal. Nothing really special just a high tech crook.

He is a effing idiot of biblical proportions and if people want to continue to spend their $$$ with him, feel free. You earned it the old fashioned way by not ripping people off, so go ahead. This is America and we can do what we want.:) Happy 4th of July!

I personally will not buy another baseball card period probably until the day I die or Brent Mastro is behind bars. That's just the way I roll.

And to the guy who mentioned about Autographs...I stopped that nonsense 4 years ago when e-bay stopped pulling fakes and let 90% forgeries enter the market unchecked.

Though it's difficult to stop because I've loved it for 50 years, I try to stand for right and wrong. This Bullshit that Brent Mastro has been pulling is flat out wrong no matter how you slice it and I'm not going to be party to the ridiculousness of the hobby.

I won't sell them just like the autographs, they will sit. Only 150K wrapped up in them both, so it's not the end of the world and it was fun for a time. Now there is more money for fake benjamins, fake cars and maybe some more fake gold.

it is no longer fun when criminals dominate the hobby. You guys go right ahead and enjoy the ass poundings though. :p

What the hell does Brent Mastro have to do with this current scandal, and why does his name continue to be brought up in these threads?

It’s gonna be very very difficult to prove ..........imo prob will not be criminally prosecuted
PSA Zero chance
PWCC Zero chance
Doctor Zero Zero Zero chance
They’ve got nothing...

Business as usual ....This hobby is the wild wild best always has been always will be...up to buyer to be smart :-)

We all know this and will be fine :-)

I Have to disagree. I see someone, ie doctor or pwcc getting nabbed for trimming, something related to this, fraud, money laundering, etc

The original "Bad Actor" who was arrested was BILL Mastro (of Mastro Auctions...)

The term "BRENT Mastro" was coined by Chuck, as a nickname for Brent Huigens of PWCC. The inference being that they are both guilty of criminal wrongdoing within the hobby.

Well, no, because the truth is never tiresome. Though I do often forget to be patient with people who are slower and dumber than I am, but I am working on it.

:D