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Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>I just got an 1871 Peck and Snyder Ballplayers Guidebook to clubs by Henry Chadwick in the mail today. I briefly skimmed through it and found the following advertisement to be VERY interesting. It lists the Peck and Snyder CDV's for sale at a price of 10 cents each (5 clubs)which proves that these were NOT freebees but were items which were bought like baseball cards. Not only that but it lists a 12X16 inch large photo of any of the clubs for sale at a price of $1.50. Has anyone ever heard of a larger premium ever surfacing? It also lists that new clubs would be continually added for sale to the public as well.<br /><br />I do not know if any of the forum members have seen this advertisement before, but it was all news to me. I was under the impression these Peck and Snyder cards were "trade cards" given away free as promotions. This advertisement would seem to indicate these were bought similar to exhibit cards. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1132645399.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>That's very interesting. I have never seen that before. I wonder if they might have been given away too, as has always been thought. This certainly sheds some new light on the matter of it being a giveaway. Since this was 1871 I wonder what that makes of the year too? BTW, I'll take one of the large photo's for $1.50. I really enjoy finding out tidbits like this.....thanks for sharing...regards

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Posted By: <b>Corey R.Shanus</b><p>which answers a few questions. For one, it explains the relative scarcity of the Atlantics, Athletics, Mutuals and White Stockings relative to the Red Stockings. Images of Red Stockings presumably would be in greatest demand, and P&S, selling the images as opposed to giving them away, would have economic incentive to have a greater supply of the team for which there was the most demand. Interesting that the Athletics are called the Blue Stockings; that explains the blue verso. Also, interesting that the ad refers to these images as Nines of 1870. That might explain why the 1868 Lowells are not mentioned. It appears that there is another Atlantics that has not yet been discovered. The one known, besides being identified on the mount as being the 1868 Nine, does NOT have players who were on the team in 1870 (e.g., Lipman Pike). I have never seen one of the larger-sized photos. What a discovery that would be! Does anybody remember the verso on the Red Stockings version that appears cdv size (not trade-card size). I have some vague recollection that the verso mentions the 10 cent price, though I'm really not sure. What this ad doesn't give us is the full checklist of team/player images. Since the 1868 Lowells is not mentioned, then presumably images available prior to 1870 (and no longer available) are not listed. All in all, a TERRIFIC find; thanks so much for sharing it!!

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I was wondering the same thing as Corey.<br /><br />I think perhaps they just kept selling the "old" cards every year... which would explain why no others are known.<br /><br />In other words...<br /><br />In 1869, they sold cards depicting the 1868 Atlantics and the 1869 Red Stockings.<br /><br />In 1870, they sold the SAME cards as before... but ADDED some new teams.<br /><br />???<br /><br />In other words, even though the 1871 Ad refers to "The Nines of 1870"...<br /><br />I don't think they made "new" team cards for any of the teams (Atlantics, Reds, etc.) who ALREADY had "old" cards.<br /><br />People would still buy the 1868 Atlantics cards and the 1869 Reds card... because they were the "best" teams and everyone would want their "commerative" cards.

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>It is quite possible P&S did not create a new Atlantics card depicting the 1870 team, and sold instead the 1868 team. If that is the case, I wonder if they changed the mount to delete the 1868 description since that would be at odds with the ad referring to these images as being from 1870. On reflection, this explanation of the 1868 team being reused might make more sense than there being an 1870 Atlantic team card that has yet to be discovered. The only probelm with this theory, though, is why then doesn't the ad refer to the Lowells team. That card is known to exist (from 1868). Maybe by 1871, since the flame on that team essentially went out by 1870, P&S didn't bother mentioning a team for which they perceived there to be little or no demand.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree that the Atlantics card you would have gotten in 1870 would have almost certainly been the 1868 team. And the lack of the Jim Creighton on the list suggests it was long sold out, confirming that it was in fact the very first one printed. But I also agree with Corey that the most fascinating aspect is the large size photos offered for $1.50. I would venture to say that they were spectacular, and for whatever reason none survived. Finally, I think the trade cards cost a dime if you walked in off the street and wanted one; but if you were a good customer they were free and you could have as many as you wanted. Those were business cards, after all.

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Posted By: <b>Andy Baran</b><p>I'm wondering if maybe the premiums didn't sell well in 1870 because of their price, which could explain why there are none today. If the CDV's only cost $0.10 each, it seems that the premium for $1.50 may have been beyond the budget of the typical "collector" of the day. The gap just seems very large. Does anyone know what $1.50 in 1870 would equivalize to in today's dollars?

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>1.50 in 1870 is about 21 dollars today

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>$1.50 would be well beyond the reach of the working man, who probably earned less than $10 week. But every generation had wealthy patrons and their best customers could afford it. The display photos were clearly being produced for their wealthy clientele exclusively.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>It's possible (I said possible) that that the older CDVs were the originals from earlier years and that were still in stock. That the Creighton (sold out?) is not on the list might support this theory.<br /><br />There are far greater Peck & Snyder experts on this board than I, but I was under the impression that there were two different kind of small Peck & Snyder cards, at least for the Reds. One had the advertising on back and one had none. If so, that one kind is sold to the public doesn't not mean the other (ad back) was not a trade card.<br /><br />On numerous old CDVs and cabinet photos, the studio's ad on back will sometimes say 'We can make more if you want.' So it was possible for the CDV maker to make more on demand. However, for a big wholesale/resale company like Peck & Snyder, it might have been most cost effective to have a lot made up at once, rather than having them remade sporadically. The 'We can make more' ad was generally not intended for a big resale corperation, but for a small town couple who just got their wedding photo and might down the road wish to purchase an extra copy for Uncle Bob who missed the wedding.

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>You better be careful David, you might make the people who own a Peck & Snyder team card upset. They are very sensitive people and now you are inferring that the card without the ad is now valued at 10 cents more than the P & S's that do have the ad!

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Don't misquote me, Rob. I said "might" be worth 10 cents more.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I think BOTH have the AD on the back... but the AD is different.<br /><br />ONE version has the AD on the back with Mr. Peck and his HUGE head (caricature)...<br /><br />while the OTHER version has THIS ad on back:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.lewisbaseballcards.com/classes/baseBallCard/images/790Lg.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Here is the back of JC's version of the card:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.zmotive.com/ebayphotos/album04/1869_peck_snider_large_back.sized.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Here is the back from Leon's card with the big head:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.geocities.com/typecard777/websitepeckandsnyderback.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>By the way...<br /><br />because this new item shows that people had to BUY these Peck & Snyder cards and NOT just walk in off the street and pick them up as advertising pieces...<br /><br />it makes them MORE akin to "real baseball cards" and LESS akin to "trade cards" or "business cards."

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Posted By: <b>George Counter</b><p>Another version that carries a text ad for Chadwick's book of reference also has the 15 cents price caption.<br />No mention of Peck & Snyder, just The American News Co; Agents, Nos. 117, 119 and 121 Nassau St; NY

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>George:<br /><br />I remember seeing that back also... but I could not find a picture that I could copy and scan.<br /><br />I thought it was on the website of one of our users.<br /><br />Babcock?<br /><br />Anyways... that was the FIRST time that I ever saw anything that said something about "Additional Copies can be ordered for 15 cents" or something similar.<br /><br />Can someone PLEASE find a scan of that back?

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I think maybe Bruce Babcock's card has this on the back.<br /><br />I will e-mail him and see if he can post a photo of his back.

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Posted By: <b>davidcyleback</b><p>I've always considered trade cards to be baseball cards anyway. But, as Hal said, that these were sold to the public proves beyond any doubt that these CDVs are baseball cards. To me, these are the first verifiable baseball cards.

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>There was one with the Chadwick ad in Hunt Auctions (Aug/1998)<br />Lot #1049 - $5.5K with juice - Print was strong but mount was pretty damaged.<br />Too bad their website archives goes back to 1999.<br /><br />I can post a scan of the one in the catalog if necessary.<br /><br />JL

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think it's fair to say that while in the past Peck & Snyder's were considered photographic trade cards, today it is legitimate to call them baseball cards. Few would doubt that nomenclature. Our perception of what constitutes a baseball card set has changed and these are clearly part of the very first collectable set. However, they were almost certainly regional. How many people who did not frequent the sporting goods store actually purchase them? Despite the store's advertising, did anybody from out of state send away for them in the mail? I think few if any would have done that.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>If Peck & Snyder's CATALOG was mailed nationwide...<br /><br />then the OPPORTUNITY was there for someone in any part of the country to buy these cards.<br /><br />Thus...<br /><br />I don't think we can assume that NOBODY ever ordered any of these by mail.<br /><br />And therefore...<br /><br />I think they meet the definition of "NATIONAL" distribution.<br /><br /><br /><br />ESPECIALLY in 1869...<br /><br />when there really wasn't ANY company or product that was "Nationwide".<br /><br />Heck, I doubt "Old Judge" cigarettes or "Drum" cigarettes or "Broad Leaf" cigarettes or "MINO" cigarettes were distribited "Nationwide"!!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />To me, the "regional distribution disclaimer" only starts to apply AFTER 1933 when the big time Goudey set came out.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hal- fair statement. We can assume somebody somewhere ordered them, but how many people took advantage of ordering merchandise by mail in 1870? I guess it existed, but would have been a very tiny portion of anyone's business.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Hey... who wouldn't want a Peck & Snyder's card delivered by Pony Express??<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Hal<br /><br />The pony express only ran from 1860 to 1861 to deliver mail from Missouri to Sacramento. <a href="http://www.americanwest.com/trails/pages/ponyexp1.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.americanwest.com/trails/pages/ponyexp1.htm</a> <br /><br />I am not aware of any HOFers who rode for the express <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Max<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>And you know what- if you saved the envelope with the Pony Express stamp on it you've got yourself a four-figure collectible in its own right. All Pony Express material is prized by stamp collectors.

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>Hal, to answer your email question, the back on my P&S is the same as yours, as shown earlier in this post.

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/19cBB/psnyder.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Back in those days, CDVs of popular subjects (Abe Lincoln, Queen Victoria) were sold at stores and collected by regular citizens. Matthew Brady had two galleries were you could buy his photos. So the idea of an average citizen purchasing CDVs of baseball teams would not have been a strange idea at the time.<br /><br />In 1870, the average baseball fan had not seen the Reds or Atlantics play in person and had never seen an actual photograph of the teams or perhaps even any of the individual players. Newspapers, magazines and sporting goods catalogs didn't have the technology to print photo-realistic images. For many, purchasing one of these CDVs was the first chance to see what the players really looked like ... This is one reason why the Old Judges were popular. A card was the first time a kid or adult saw an actual photograph of the player.

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>By the late 1860's all of these big name teams were making tours all around the country, from the east coast to St. Louis and everywhere in between (except the south). So most of the wanna-be teams and fans new about these heretofore faceless players (much like those who collected the multitude of CDV's from Barnum's traveling circus and Buffalo Bill's traveling Wild West show). So there was both local demand and a nationwide (almost) demand.<br /><br />Looking at the different ads on some of the backs shown above, it's interesting to note that some seem to be more taylored to the local NY fan base while others are more directed to fans outside of the area. For instance, in the one Hal shows it mentions that P & S "supplies clubs throughout the country", "send for catalog", blah, blah while other cards are more of the "come visit us" type ad. I wonder if the "local" type cards were the freebies and the other type (with the player's names on the back and mentioning different reference guides) were the ones that cost money.<br /><br />Rob M.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>It should also be noted that in the 1800s, trade cards were often made by a lithographer and sold as 'blanks' to the stores or companies that wanted to use them for advertising. The puchasing company would stamp its name on the front or back and give them away. The CDVs with different ads on back are consistant with trade cards in general, and it's safe to label them as trade cards. It appears some were trade cards and others were sold to the public. I consider them all the be genuine baseball cards, so no one should fume that I dare called his a trade card.