Please Cleveland: go back to Indians?
 

I'm old school.

I look at the scores every morning, and I have to pause and figure out who the "Guardians" are.

I mean really, is everyone outside the country of India offended by the name Indians?

Just sayin'.

OK I feel better now.

Fine with Guardians. Grew on me fast. It’s the Commanders that always confuses me. For some odd reason I really grew to like the Washington Football Team. Seemed very regal.

I think it's because of the negative connotation behind the word "Indians" and how the Native American people were portrayed by a cartoonish, chief like character. I'm going to leave it at that because I do not wish to discuss politics, here on the board. I will say that I think many people fail to realize that the name change was meant to honor Louis Sockalexis, the first Native American to play in the Major Leagues. He was from the Penobscot tribe, if they really wanted to change the name, I thought it would have been cool had they worked with the tribe to arrive at a new name, or simply gone back to the Spiders or Naps.

I think they should have stayed with Indians. The name of the Indians was used in a racist way, but it can also be used to honor Indians. Going from Indians (specific and interesting) to Guardians (sounds generic) is going downhill.

Agree with everything. Also wanted the Spiders.

Caricature/stereotypical figures are always racist. Think Lil Sambo, black face, or Shylock from the Merchant of Venice. Chief Wahoo was racist from his creation in 1949, and MLB allowed it to exist beyond what the normal public was comfortable with. I was only able to get a WS patch hat of Chief Wahoo, and my wife asks me to not wear it everytime I want to go out in public with it.

I think if MLB had acted a decade or two earlier, they could have saved the team name. A great example is MiLB team Spokane Indians who have worked very hard to create a respectful relationship with the local tribe. This relationship was built over many years while Cleveland did nothing similar. The team mascot is a salmon, and they have occasional jerseys written in the native language, plus other cool things.

If you want an interesting read, African American historian Henry Louis Gates writes about caricatures and black face in his historical book STONY THE ROAD, and explains how Southern Leaders used caricatures/black face/and stereotypes during post-Civil War Reconstruction to invalidate the right of African Americans to vote.

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I'm fine with just about any name change for any reason anybody wants to do it. The names Brown's, Bee's, Senators, Pilot's, Expos, etc... also don't exist anymore either, for whatever reasons.

"Guardians" is pretty weak and generic though. They should have come up with something better. Working with local tribes to come up with a name suitable to them, sounds like a good idea to me also, but I have no idea the complexities involved to do something like that.

Maybe this speaks to my own budget, and what I want to put into seeing an actual baseball game live...but I was more annoyed then I ever have been, when our local minor league AA team went from the New Britain Rock Cats (I thought that was a pretty cool name and mascot)...to the Hartford Yard Goats.

Seriously, what the F%*k is a "Yard Goat"?

Is it just a goat in your yard? ...and why the hell would you name a baseball team after that?

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

"The nickname "Yard Goats" was selected as part of a "Name the Team" contest which drew over 6,000 submissions. "Yard goats" is rail-yard slang for the switch engines or terminal tractors that shuttle train cars between different locomotives. The stadium is adjacent to the Hartford rail yards."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_Yard_Goats

HaHa yeah, I've read all that before.

Believe me, Hartford is NOT known for it's rail yards. :D

Also, their mascot is an actual goat. If you go to a home game, they have a petting zoo full of goats.

I guess it would be pretty cool if they had a petting zoo full of rail yard workers, though probably not suitable for the kids. ;)

This was what they gave away one bobble head day:

https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/i...3a26648281.jpg

Don't get me wrong. It's a great park and they do a good job running the organization, but man.....I can't abide.

Lol! I suppose they could have done better... The Hartford Mark Twains, perhaps?

I had a chuckle reading through the list of current minor league affiliates:
https://www.milb.com/about/teams

I like that the Cedar Rapids Kernels have an anthropomorphized corn cob as their logo :)

Naps would have been very cool but overall I think Cleveland Baseball Club and Washington Football Club would be better than the chosen names.

The Cleveland Eeries (not a typo)

An Eerie closer would scare the visitors to death.

How about an Ear-y closer?

The Cleveland Moss Ears. I can get on the bandwagon for that name change.

It gets even better than that Frank. The historically prominent Terminal Tower building and complex was completed in 1927, and at that time was the 2nd tallest building in the world. The old, longstanding joke has been: Cleveland.....the only city in the world with a tower that is terminal, overlooking a lake that is (e)erie.

And of course, don't forget one of our unofficial city anthems, Randy Newman's iconic "Burn on Big River" song.

The supposed honoring of Louis Sockalexis, the first ever native American MLB player in history, is likely more myth than pure fact. Though his name was mentioned by the still surviving till today, Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper as a source for the new "Indians" name starting in 1915, the truth is Sockalexis was a drunken alcoholic. He ended up appearing for the then Cleveland Spiders in only 94 games over a three-season period from 1897-1899, after which the Spiders permanently disbanded. If anything, because of his well-known issues with alcoholism and poor MLB level of performance, choosing him as the primary source of the name for the Indians doesn't really make sense. Especially when his life and actions appear to support some of the more negative connotations supposedly associated with native Americans back in the day.

Instead, the true thinking behind the Indians name is thought to be derived from the fact that Cleveland/Northeastern Ohio was at one time the home of Iroquoian speaking tribes, like the Wyandotte and Mingo. The Cuyahoga River runs through the heart of the City of Cleveland, which is also located in Cuyahoga County. The word "cuyahoga" is derived from native American languages and generally means "crooked river". In fact, the state name "Ohio" is actually based on an Iroquoian word from the Seneca tribe used to name/describe the Ohio River. The native American meaning is "it is beautiful". So, it is also felt that that native American past and history was then coupled with the then very recent historical success of the Boston Braves who won the 1914 World Series. And since Boston already had dibs on the Braves name, Cleveland then grabbed the Indians as their new moniker, which was considered acceptable at the time.

And by historical, I refer to the fact that the "Miracle" Braves were in last place in the National League on July 4, 1914 yet ended up winning the NL pennant by 10-1/2 games. They then went on to become the first ever team to win a World Series in a four-game sweep, beating the Philadelphia A's. And this was all done with a team and roster that included only one single future HOFer on it. A 33-year-old Johnny Evers, who's stats were average or pedestrian, at best, in 1914. Cleveland may have been looking/hoping for some of that Braves good fortune to rub off on them by picking the somewhat related Indians name as the new team moniker, while also recognizing the city's/area's native American roots.

Meanwhile, the new "Guardians" name is supposedly in tribute to the carved figures on the four pylons helping to support the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge as it crosses over the Cuyahoga River, right outside and next to where the team currently plays in Progressive Field. The bridge was completed in 1932 and the "Guardians of the Traffic" carvings have a decidedly art-deco look to them (think Diamond Stars cards). The bridge was officially renamed the "Hope Memorial Bridge" then in 1983, but is still considered the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge by many older locals. There are varying versions as to who, or what, the bridge was actually renamed for. Some media have claimed it was renamed in honor of William Henry "Harry" Hope, a local stonemason who took part in building the bridge, or his son, the famous comedian Bob Hope, the Hope family as a whole, or for all the people who built the bridge with Harry Hope as the designated representative of them. And there is a big Cleveland Indians connection as well. Bob Hope, though born in England, grew up in Cleveland and was a Naps/Indians fan, and who's favorite player growing up was Tris Speaker. He actually became a minority owner of the Indians when Bill Veeck took control off the team, and kept a minority ownership in the Tribe for over 40 years. He even made the cover of Sports Illustrated back in June of 1963, dressed in an Indians uniform.

So there may be a little more to the Guardians name than some thought.

This may be the worst take on the life of Louis Sockalexis I have ever read. Seriously!?!

At Vikings games, there's a fat guy in a fur outfit with horns on his head and a big sword. I'm Scandinavian, but I choose to not be offended. I suppose I could be if that was my nature.

Just sayin'.

Rhett,

You are questioning me about the take on Sockalexis and going to give me crap about it? I should be the one asking you - Seriously!?!

Do us both a favor and do a little online research on Sockalexis and his short-lived Cleveland Spiders career. I think you'll quickly discover he was a tad less than stellar. He did start off his 1897 MLB rookie season like a star and helped propel the Spiders to a great start. However, he also apparently liked to drink and carouse quite a bit at night, and was given the nickname "wild bird" by his teammates as a result. Come early July of that rookie season, a foot injury hampered his play, with some sources saying it was the result of his jumping/falling from the second floor window of a brothel, while others claimed he hurt it running the basepaths. Regardless, his drinking apparently caught up to him and by late July of 1897 it was reported in the local Plain Dealer newspaper that team management couldn't control him anymore. He apparently also developed anger issues and became very sullen, to the point where he pretty much spent the rest of the 1897 season on the bench.

He then spent most of the 1898 season on the bench as well. Following that 1898 season the Spiders sold most of their players to St. Louis, but apparently, they didn't want Sockalexis. So, he started the 1899 season with the Spiders playing alongside mostly rejects, prospects, and semi-pro players. Supposedly he started off the season okay, but then his game quickly deteriorated again, to the point where it was reported he fell down drunk playing in the outfield twice during a game on May 13, 1899. He was released by the team soon after that, despite the Spiders only winning 20 games the entire season and being the worst team in MLB that year. Sockalexis was out of MLB for good, even though he was still only 27 years old at the time. I think it's pretty damning when you are so bad, you get cut by the worst team in baseball.

And then over the next couple of years after that he also ended up being arrested and jailed for drunkenness, making a public disturbance, and vagrancy. He ended up dying of a heart attack on December 24, 1913, at the fairly young age off 42.

So, how would you like me to sugar coat the major league baseball part of his career and life, so it is more to your liking?

And this is why I mentioned that the idea of the Indians being named in honor of the very first native American to play in the major leagues may not be as accurate as some would like to hope/think. Though some newspapers apparently made mention of Sockalexis at the time the Indians name was picked, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the team to really have been named in his honor due to his actual history and career with the team being so miserable, and the fact that he apparently lived up to and helped perpetuate the derogatory stereotype of a "drunken Indian".

I had also for years heard, and believed, the story of the Indians being named to honor Sockalexis. But, eventually coming across some contrary statements, I did some research and learned more of the truth about him. If anything, he is a somewhat tragic figure, and the fact that his name was mentioned in the press at the time of the Indians name selection change may have had more to do with it being a better story by which to sell newspapers than anything else.

You've heard the modern saying that if you read it on the internet, it must be true? Well 100+ years ago newspapers were pretty much the equivalent of today's internet for getting one's news.

I think newspaper reports should always be questioned, and it is possible the name had less to do with Sockalexis than the traditional story. I would love to see any evidence this is the case though and it was something else that inspired the naming.

But if we are to ignore the newspaper reports because they are often inaccurate, why are we citing those same newspapers to attack Sockalexis' character? Aren't the allegations in them of his drunkeness and brothel visiting to be held to the same standard as the reports on the team naming, if we believe that newspaper reports cannot be trusted? How can we logically allow one into evidence but require the dismissal of the other?


I must admit I find it a little amusing that attacking a Native-American for being a drunk, an old negative racist stereotype of them, is given in the context of defending why the team name was offensive and it was proper to change it.

I wouldn't say that Bob C.'s take on Sockalexis is factually incorrect, but I think it's missing something. Sockalexis was very talented, and was a great player before the drinking started. I remember him being very popular, though I might be wrong.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Indian team name was inspired both by the Boston Braves and by Sockalexis. Not mutually exclusive.

Ed Rice's biography is an excellent treatment of his tragic life. Or at least, I enjoyed his research.

Penobscot?

Seems like the " knobs " would be apropos

Not interested in your take. Between my brother Rhys and I you would be hard pressed to find anyone on this planet that knows more about Sockalexis so I will take a hard pass. We both became fascinated by his story as young kids growing up in Old Town, Maine… where Sockalexis is from. You have a very myopic view of him and his accomplishments (or in your view the lack thereof) so I will not be engaging with you further on this.

Okay then. I've seen and read lots of information on him, and have viewed his record and such with the Spiders. You just basically said I don't know what I'm talking about with no info, backup, or anything else to explain further. Yes, please don't worry about answering back.

But in response to what you said, remember this, the topic was concerning the naming of the "Cleveland" team! Not a team from Maine, nor one from where he played his college ball, or otherwise. As a life-long Clevelander myself, I can understand using his performance as a Cleveland team member to determine if they should honor him. I am sorry, but why should Cleveland have looked at anything other than his record while in Cleveland for such a determination? His record and situation while in Cleveland was absolutely horrible, and that it is arguably all that should have been relevant. Especially after the team was coming off being named after Lajoie, its manager and star player. Answer yourself this. Why would a team go from honoring a player of Lajoie's talent and record, by having been named after him, to immediately honoring someone with Sockalexis' team history and record? The quick answer is, no one in their right mind would.

Everything I said about him while in Cleveland and his performance as a Spider is factually true and accurate. I do concur with you though, and even said so myself, he was a tragic figure. But for purposes of determining his worth in supposedly honoring him by naming the team the Indians, I think it much more important and relevant to apply a "focused" view to his contributions to just the Cleveland franchise and city. And quite frankly, based on his actual performance and record as a Spider, he is not deserving. And your finding fault with that is what I consider as coming from a "myopic" point of view from you, not me.

And if you don't like what I was saying about him, be sure to not go looking up his story on the New England Historical Society site.

In faint hope of lightening the mood in this thread, we suggest the Hartford team might have combined
the two elements and become the ChooChoo Twains...

That would offend people with a speech impediment, like Elmer Fudd. :)

I wish the Astros would switch back to the Colt .45s.

I could get on board with that one. :D

+1

If they wanted something related to what Hartford is known for they could have gone with "actuaries"

"The Hartford Prudentials" (too on the nose maybe?)

"The Hartford Bean Counters"

"The Hartford Office Space Vacancies"

"The Hartford Not The Whalers"

"The Hartford Half Our Events Are Held In A Mall With No Stores"

:(

Naps or Spiders, not sure how the sjw naming committee missed on those two amazing opportunities to rename the club.

Aside from people on this forum and some real old-timers, not very many people know who Lajoie is, or his history with the team. If you're going to do that you'd be better off naming the team something like the Fellers.

And the Spiders is worse. It is an insect, an arachnid, that many people detest. Plus, you name them the Spiders and the logical progression will carry over to Spiderman. And I can already see the potential lawsuits and issues coming with merchandising and such. Cleveland MLB ownership is not big on spending money, and they won't want to get into any licensing rights scandals or payouts. They got rid of Chief Wahoo, they should have just left the name.

I will always refer them as the Indians. I will never buy anything that refers to them as the Guardians.
I will always refer to the football team as the Redskins. I will never buy anything that refers to them as the Commanders.
Bob

I could never understand why a Washington team would go with 'Commanders'. The Pentagon is right across the river, and a Commander is just about the lowest ranking person there.

Interestingly, the Cleveland MLB franchise still has ownership of the Chief Wahoo name and image as a registered trademark, and products with the Chief Wahoo image are still available and being sold. If they really were abandoning the Chief Wahoo image, why did they bother to officially re-register the trademark for it in 2016, and continue to sell Chief Wahoo merchandise to this day?

The simple answer of course is money. The Cleveland fan base is not going to simply abandon their team's history and iconic logo just like that. The team and MLB are trying to be politically correct, but do not want to lose fans and revenue. They realize that fully abandoning, and then going even further to officially ban, the Indians name and Chief Wahoo logo will likely resort in losing fans, and revenue as a result.

I also wonder if the fact that the Indians play the Toronto Blue Jays in Canada each year, while the Atlanta Braves do not necessarily regularly play in Canada every year, has anything to do with the Cleveland franchise seeming to get so much more criticism and pressure to get rid of the Indians name? I understand Canadian trademark laws and conditions can be much different than in the US, and prior legal actions and future threats of continued efforts to stop the use of the Chief Wahoo image and Indians name at games in Toronto was likely a compelling reason for MLB to put added pressure on Cleveland for the name change, but not so much Atlanta.

Who would be offended by having ones' ancestors called "Brave"?

Some people have to do a backwards flip to find an excuse to pretend to be offended.

Where did you hear that the Atlanta Braves do not ever play in Toronto?

Good gosh, you are right, I am wrong. Thank you. I totally forgot about interleague play. Well, that surprises me even more then as I'm aware of suits being filed in Canada against the Indians and Chief Wahoo, but not aware of the same against the Braves. Interesting that one reference would be acceptable, and the other not.

So true! 'This' offended group is a small fraction of a fraction.... and many of 'these' folks don't even watch sports. They just need something to bitch about in order to feel validated about their miserable lives.

Nice attempt at derailing the discussion.

We need to stay on track with our comments, from here on out.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/13sc1Erq6rAoQU/giphy.gif