Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie
This probably merits a separate thread.
Self explanatory. https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14717612 As additional interesting cards get outed will link them here. |
I printed and went through the list...will go check my collection later today.
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phew! None from that list are in my collection. I did a quick vlookup in excel. Gotta love technology!
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What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards? Just trying to understand if I have a card on there what that means and what to do if anything.
Cory Weiser |
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psa trimmed
Thanks for putting this together.
I'd say its the beginning of the end for PSA, but there will always be suckers (says P. T. Barnum). But like Maestro, smart people will check and verify. But deep down we knew it's a money grabbing business and PSA are using all hands. |
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I got lucky, went through my past sales. Seem most of the cards I bought came from auction houses and private collectors. Only card I bought from PWCC last 3 years was a T213-3 coupon Mathewson, which thankfully wasnt on the list.
Still not out of the woods.... |
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Yes, this is only from one guy out of the 10 card alterers exposed by Blowout so far.
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I can assess grade largely on my own. Scanning at 1600DPI, you can see incredible detail along the edges. 10x magnification may be sufficient to rush out a numerical grade, but I’m pretty upset these companies didn’t even try to look closer to evaluate authenticity. |
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Edit: except the raw Ebay sellers like battleship and great lakes, if that's who you're talking about. And Vegas Dave for market manipulation. |
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Forgive my ignorance, since I've never sent anything to get graded. But: doesn't PSA have to buy all of these cards back at prices corresponding to the assigned grade? Isn't that their guarantee?
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If they can be proven altered, yes. That is their grade guarantee with no expiration date, and it's priced into their grading services that cost up to $5,000 a card.
Add: As of a month ago's conference call, they only have about $800,000 in their grade guarantee reserve fund. So once it eclipses that, they'll be taking it out of hide. |
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Well, if PSA decertifies the numbers like I've asked them to, I'm sure all of those affected will send them back to have them re-evaluated or refunded.
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George Troendle
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(1) PSA has published (or at least alluded to) the practices and procedures it uses to grade every card; (2) Those practices and procedures include height and width allowances for each type of card -- that is, some amount of deviation bellow an expected height/width is NOT viewed as evidence of trimming; (3) Blowout/Etc. has established that it is possible to make material improvement in the value of many cards by trimming little enough that the majority (85%) of the cards are still tall/wide enough to avoid being viewed as "trimmed"; (4) Apparently, PSA's existing practices and procedures cannot (or at least do not) detect other evidence of trimming, either because the cutting doesn't leave a trace or PSA's practices and procedures are not comprehensive enough to detect whatever evidence of trimming is available; (5) The foregoing leads to the conclusion that PSA has to either champion the idea that trimming within its height/width allowances is an acceptable (or at least undetectable) improvement that does not require qualification OR PSA has to explain how it is going to modify its practices and procedures so that trimmed cards can't go undetected. (Hopefully the "card doctor(s) du jour" will be ostracized/prosecuted and likewise if PSA and/or PWCC (or their employees) were knowingly involved in efforts to conceal/ignore evidence of trimming and sell altered cards without qualification. At the same time,) the next "big picture" event has to happen soon -- PSA has to take a position regarding whether it can detect trimming going forward. |
Part of the size issue is that sometimes, apparently, the card doctors use a press to stretch cards before trimming them, so detection depends more on examining the edges than on size per se. Probably some card stocks are more susceptible to this technique than others.
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Psa
I called PSA,2 days ago.Asking about increased fees,and length
of return time. They said they just hired a bunch of new people,to speed up things?? |
You are correct. PSA has to openly state they are WOEFULLY INCOMPETENT of detecting alterations including trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, and pressing out creases or they are lying. Or they have to reveal the scammers internal to their organization and prosecute them for fraud. They also need to openly state ALL OF THE SCAMMERS THAT ARE BANNED FROM SUBMITTING so the rest of the collecting community is aware and the information can be given to the other grading companies, auctionhouses, etc.
After that, they have to buy back all of these cards revealed to be altered, and remove them from their pop reports. Then they need to actually develop the tactics, techniques, and procedures to detect alterations. Otherwise, their business model crumbles. Maybe it does anyways. As a publicly traded company with millions of dollars of fraud uncovered in weeks by volunteer detectives, they are exposed both literally and financially. |
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It seems to me that if ever there was a ripe opportunity for another grading company to come into being, or for SGC to make a major marketing move to recoup market share and reduce/eliminate the price gap between comparably graded PSA and SGC cards, this is it. |
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Sick list.
It might get to the point that the list of cards not affected will be shorter than the list of affected cards. |
I have two of them. Is the recommendation to submit to PSA for grade review? Should I note that the original submission was by a known trimmer?
Thanks, Dan |
My recommendation to someone else who asked:
https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/p...3&forum=627991 If you bought it through PWCC and it's still in the return window, return it to them ASAP. If they block you from bidding in the future, consider it a plus. If it's outside of the return window (6 months via PayPal, right? maybe longer if you used a credit card), then email PWCC and PSA and see what they'd like you to do. If you didn't buy it through PWCC, work through your original seller and PSA to have it reviewed. |
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I called and spoke to PSA. They stated three will review any card suspected for being altered and review the card, plus any evidence if you have it as well. This is done free of charge. If deemed altered (I know that term is now ambiguous), they will buy it back. With that said, I would prefer to be at the beginning of this line, and not the end. So you can mail them to them if you would like to see how it goes. If anyone does, please share your experience.
Cory Weiser |
The Airing of Grievances: PSA Edition
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297252 |
Definitely recommend you try to find proof first before sending back. They will look at the "evidence" of before and after photos.
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Suppose you own one of these cards. You won it at an AH or on eBay.
Now, the AH or eBay seller might have bought this card from another AH or seller. Maybe the card was consigned. The AH or eBay seller had no idea that it was altered or doctored in any way. They depended on the expertise of the grading company to confirm its authenticity. Do you think that the AH or eBay seller is responsible for refunding the buyer? How about the grading company, are they responsible for refunding the buyer? Or, is the buyer stuck with the card? |
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They still haven’t made a public announcement. They know there is a ton of bad Moser cards out there that they incorrectly graded yet don’t give a damn about getting those cards out of circulation. They’re just quietly dealing with individuals who are calling to complain instead. This should be no different than a dog food company recalling bad dog food that they sold. PSA should be issuing a national campaign to get these cards back and to stand behind their product. But they haven’t and won’t.
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Time for SGC to step it up, as has been mentioned, but will they? |
They were hamstrung by the May 31 Set Registry Deadline that passed yesterday. I expect them to be more forthcoming now that they can put that registry year to bed. If they had decertified all the flips tied to Moser one day before the deadline, they would have irreparably harmed their customers and brand.
I completely understand them taking time to make a measured response, when that time was so critical to their Set Registry. Just the timing of these revelations came at the wrong time of the year. |
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