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Need genuine evaluation(s) from U-in the know

Posted By: BcDaniels  OK, I was warned but did it anyway! I sent some SGC graded Mello Mints & George Close Candy cards et into PSA to get crossed over for no other reason than to add to the cards from these sets to register for fun. I had already optained more cards in PSA holders otherwise I may have done this the other way around. No political issues between the grading services promoted my actions. Now here is where the problem starts~ I clearly wrote on the invoice that I did not want the cards crossed over unless they were of Equal grade with the SGC holders they were presently in. No biggy.I was not asking for anything better on any of them.Well,they crossed over some as equal,did not remove some from the SGC holders and sadly,crossed over five of the cards,overiding my invoice instructions and they are now in one grade lower holders! Three letters and a couple of phone calls and a flight down south later,a guy named Peter ( seems amicable and helpful) who now runs customer service requests I leave the cards with him for "review" prior to any offers of resolution.I told him I was a collector and really wanted them in the orginal holders, (destroyed) because I had no interest in selling them to PSA. He understood and promised me in writing that the cards be returned if an agreement (settlement) was not reached between us! Assuming the worst outcome, I hope to have a refernece point for negotiating the value difference between the grades the cards originally received and the grades they are now housed in. here you go~ E-105 Mello Mint Cy Young. (Is in a "4" holder,was in a 60 holder) E94 George Close Candy Hans Wagner* (was in a SGC 60 holder-is now in a "4" holder) E94 common-Joe Lake (was in a 60 holder-is now in a "4" holder) Tango Egg Billy Meyer-common ( WAS in an SGC 86 holder***-is now in a PSA 6 holder!) PSA hammers the centering of Vintage cards that would be nearMint or better on centering ) lastly,a common E101-from a vg/ex holder to a VG holder*~ I really need a bunch of ideas on the difference in value between what WAS and what IS??? This will help eleviate the bias offers by myself or PSA. The reference numbers would really help! Pete? T-bob? BOTN? Tim S? John W? Leon,Scott B,Brian H,Quan(you would know!),Jonathan P,Mike W.,"Nex"man,Scott F,Wesley,Todd S,Dan K, Mike Wentz ???, B Weisner & anyone else who may have experience in pricing and keeping up on values of these. Thank You!

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Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi BCD Sorry to hear the bad news, I had seen improvement in PSA'S customer service lately and was hoping that it would continue. As far as value goes, I'd only be guessing, but I would think you lost atleast 30% of the value. I'm sure MW, Pete and Tbob are more qualified than I am when it comes to the Candy issues. I hope everything ends well Brian

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Posted By: botnBrian Peter Ma is a good guy and is really trying to keep things under control at PSA. I have heard from many people that they have been pleased with the outcome when he is involved. Without having seen the card in either of their holders, this is general information on how i would price the cards on my site. Granted most of those that post and lurk on these boards think my pricing is from another planet but here goes: E-105 Young PSA 4 $550 E105 Young SGC 60 $1,000 E94 Wagner PSA 4 $2,000 E94 Wagner SGC 60 $3,500 E94 Lake PSA 4 $225 E94 Lake SGC 60 $475 Tango Egg Meyer PSA 6 NO CLUE Tango Egg Meyer SGC 86 NO CLUE E101 Common PSA 3 $40 E101 Common SGC 50 $75 Greg

Need genuine evaluation(s) from U-in the know

Posted By: MW<< Granted most of those that post and lurk on these boards think my pricing is from another planet...>> Do they collect cards on that planet? If so, I can assure you that there's nothing to worry about. Price suggestions: I agree with Greg's prices for the first six. Tango Egg Meyer PSA 6 $750 Tango Egg Meyer SGC 86 $1,500 E101 Common PSA 3 $50 E101 Common SGC 50 $100

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Posted By: TimBcD, E105 Young - PSA 4 sells between $496.23 - $734.00 - PSA 5 sells for around $1071.80 E94 Wagner - PSA 5 hit $1525.00 (RNM) over a year ago...but likely much higher now E94 Lake - PSA 7 hit $460 (RNM) over a year ago...likely well over $700 for this card now...I would put a PSA 5 at over $400 Tango B. Meyer - no data E101 VG-EX...depending on who it was and how bad someone wanted it could fetch $100-$200. Tim

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Posted By: halleygatorI hate to be the lawyer in this that plays Devil's advocate... but why can't PSA pay you to just send them BACK to SGC and get them put BACK into SGC holders with the proper SGC grades?? For 8 cards, this couldn't cost more than about $75. If I am PSA, this is what I propose as a "settlement." After all, if SGC does not even give them the SAME grade that they received from SGC the FIRST time ... then PSA's position is even STRONGER in that your cards were simply "misgraded" by SGC and NOT by PSA. Sorry this happened, but I think you will end up with your cards back in SGC holders and be "made whole" again.

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Posted By: botnsince I come from a family that has too many to even count. I agree that the cards should initially be sent back to SGC, which is what I had suggested to Brian last night. However, I do not agree that PSA's case is any stronger if SGC grades them the same grades as PSA has assigned in their current holders. We have all been the benefactors of cards that are between grades, which ended up in the higher holder. There can be very little difference in the physical appearance of a high end VG-EX and a low end EX. Grading is subjective and as such the outcome can have mixed results each time a particular card is graded. I have never been a huge fan of the crossover service through any of the grading companies. I think that once a grader sees a card in a particular holder it CAN bias his judgment in making a complete and accurate assessment. I have had numerous experiences to confirm this and it is not until I send the cards in, raw, that I was successful in achieving the crossover results or even getting bumps in grades. Brian could get the cards back, break them out of their holders and resubmit them raw to SGC but that has other problems associated with it even though they are remote. 1) Cards could sustain actual damage while breaking them out. 2) A claim can be made by PSA that the cards were damaged enough while in Brian's possession justifying their current grades. 3) Cards may not grade. Again, these are remote but possible outcomes. Brian has every right to have the cards back in holders with the original assigned grades. If the cards were slightly over graded or completely over graded he did not give his authorization to have another grading company make that adjustment. If the cards were over graded it is between Brian, and in this case, SGC or if the cards were for sale, the person who is buying them. Greg

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Posted By: Brian DanielsThey violated my contract in taking the cards out to begin with. They are NOT interested in endorsing business for alternative grading services. People don't send you down the road to Burger King after McDonald's messes up your order. I am not sure what you do for a living but I owned a jewelry store for 14 years and never sent someone to my competition to fix something I messed up in repairing. You also fail to realize I have 1000 cards on their Registry*. Do you think they want to put gravel in my mouth after all the passion for the Registry?

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Posted By: WesleyBCD, If anyone knows about legal remedies, it would be Halleygator. In this case, however, I think you are going about this the right way. Here is the description of the service from PSA's website: "Crossover Service. Cards graded by other third-party firms may be submitted in their holders for PSA grading. This service is available under the Economy, Regular, Express, Super Express and Walk-Through service levels. PSA will evaluate the card inside the current holder. If PSA deems the card worthy to cross over into the Customer's specified minimum grade, the card will be removed from its holder and placed into a PSA holder. Customers using the Crossover Service must provide a minimum grade on the submission form. If Customer is willing to accept any PSA grade for the card, "any" should be written in the minimum grade column." If you clearly marked minimum grades on your invoice, and the cards did not meet the minimum grades, PSA should have left the cards in the original holders. If they did not,PSA owes you the difference between the fair market value of the cards before PSA's errors and omissions and the value of the cards at this time. I tend to agree with the dollar values that were given by Greg, even if Greg won't give me a deal on a Peoples Tobacco card. Sorry to hear about your dilemma. Wesley

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Posted By: halleygatorSorry, but I don't think PSA will agree to grade a card WHILE IT IS STILL IN A HOLDER ... so I don't think you writing some "request" on your submission form is the equivalent of a contract. I just don't think they have the ability to grade a card while it is still encapsulated ... so I think part of sending the cards in for grading is the assumption that they will be REMOVED from the slabs. Again -- I am just playing Devil's advocate since that is what lawyers are trained to do. Assume for a second that PSA is able to REMOVE your cards from the PSA slabs and give them back to you in the original condition (but unslabbed). I think that BEFORE you can prove in court that you have suffered damages ... you will be REQUIRED to send them back to SGC for grading. At that point, you will clearly have suffered damages to the extent that you paid PSA for "nothing" and you had to pay SGC again. BUT ... if the cards come back to you with the ORIGINAL SGC grades on them again ... then you have NOT lost any "value" on your cards. You will have had a miserable experience ... but you will be back to square one. HOWEVER ... if they DID come back from SGC with lower grades on them ... THEN you will have proved your point and will have exhaused all opportunities to mitigate your damages. Again, I have not read the PSA submission requirements, but I think that it probably says somewhere that they cannot grades cards while they are still slabbed. Heck, I'll bet it even says somewhere that PSA is IMMUNE for any damage done to your card while they are trying to unslab it. Your logic about being a "big PSA customer" is not truly relevant, since it almost sounds like you think they will give you whatever grade YOU WANT just to keep you happy -- which in a nutshell is what you asked them to do: AGREE with SGC in every case. After all ... what if you had sent in 8 cards that had received a 10 from "PRO" grading service and asked them to be slabbed by PSA? Would you really expect them to agree? That would be akin to "acknowledging" that the competition is on par with PSA. GRANTED, I know your MAIN beef is that they removed your cards from the SGC holders -- but UNLESS the card PHYSICALLY CHANGED in some way -- I don't "legally" think that you can prevail in showing that the value of the card has diminished. AFTER ALL -- it would only take someone about 10 minutes on this board to point out the 200 vintage card collectors who say: "I don't pay attention to the grading companies -- I inspect them myself before I buy them." I think sending the cards back to SGC "raw" will be the best solution ... and then if they "undergrade" them this time ... THEN you can rely on the experts on this board to assess your damages!

Need genuine evaluation(s) from U-in the know

Posted By: halleygatorThanks to Wesley for making my previous post MOOT!! I did NOT know that PSA would agree to grade a card STILL in the holder ... interesting (and probably impossible)!! Brian: Do you still have the carbon copy of your submission form where you clearly stated the "minimum" acceptable grade for your cards??

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Posted By: halleygatorI do, however, still think that a court of law would require you to resubmit (in raw form) the cards to SGC in an attempt to mitigate your damages. If they all came back with the original grades, then that would obviously help lessen your claim for damages. Until you have done this ... the defense (PSA) would still have this argument hanging out there ... and it could prove fatal for your case.

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Posted By: halleygatorAnd just to be clear... you should require PSA to REMOVE the cards from their holders and submit them to SGC, NOT YOU!!! This will PREVENT PSA from arguing that you "switched" the cards or damaged them yourself while removing them. Put the pressure on PSA to get SGC to regrade your cards with the original grades. IF PSA CANNOT DELIVER ... then YOU WIN ... assuming that you did make it clear on your submission form that you wanted certain minimum grades.

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Posted By: Jay MillerBrian--Talk about damages, unless Hal is doing pro bono work you're probably down something in the five figure range just for what he would bill for typing time. The funny thing is if you are SGC and you get these cards submitted by PSA how are you going to grade them? Any chance on a card falling between two grade levels that you are going to give it the higher grade? Yah, about the same chance as Hillary carrying Texas if she decides to run in 2004.

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Posted By: Jay MillerI would be very surprised if PSA would agree to submit the cards to SGC. What you need to do if they require you to resubmit them is to get PSA to give you a letter guaranteeing to compensate you for the value differences between the grades you receive and the original grades REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS TO THE CARDS BETWEEN YOUR RECEIPT OF THEM FROM PSA AND THEIR RECEIPT BACK FROM SGC. That eliminates the possibility of them claiming that you damaged the cards while preparing them for resubmission. If they don't like that then they can compensate you now or talk to your attourney, Mr. Lewis.

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Posted By: botnPSA is not going to be able to submit the cards directly to SGC for grading. That will only complicate matters. Possibly an open dialogue between the two companies may not hurt. SGC had already determined the condition of the cards at the time that they were graded and should not have to do it again. Under this particular circumstance there was no reason for the grades to be challenged. Brian certainly did not give his express authorization to PSA to down grade the cards. Unfortunately for both parties, PSA violated the agreement between them. Due to the subjectivity of grading, were SGC to re-grade the cards and concur with PSA findings, I do not see how that hurts Brian's claim for damages. The cards never should have been broken out of the holders that they were in. It is Brian's right to enjoy the benefit of the cards having been graded at their highest level, even if that means that on that certain day in CA or in NJ, that the cards did not warrant the grades assigned. Cards have these “inflated” values as a result of the holders that they are in. Sadly, the grade assigned is as important as the card itself and in some instances the grade assigned is more important due to the emphasis that still exists of collectors who buy holders and not the cards. In that respect that little flip with the number on it has become a part of the card as much as the paper that was used to make the card.

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Posted By: halleygatorHey, I just thought of one GOOD thing (maybe)... these cards may be so RARE that SGC may have ONLY graded the ones you sent in originally. So .... even if you do not have the original holders ... SGC can look at the POP report as "proof" of what grade they gave these cards the FIRST time. If SGC has a record of you sending these cards in for grading (which they should) -- or maybe you still do? -- then I think the SGC Pop report will SHOW THEM what grades the cards must receive. Check the SGC Pop Report and see if your cards show up on there (and hopefully no others)...

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Posted By: halleygatorGranted, this will require some degree of "trust" on the part of SGC ... and they may not be too sympathetic if you explain that you were taking stuff OUT of the SGC holders and INTO PSA holders... so I don't know WHAT you can tell them??

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Posted By: BcDanielson what your talking about before believing you have an answer! Let me break some of your thoughts down for you here~ I don't think... September 17 2003, 2:03 PM Sorry, but I don't think PSA will agree to grade a card WHILE IT IS STILL IN A HOLDER ... so I don't think you writing some "request" on your submission form is the equivalent of a contract. Wes clued you in.......it's a slam dunk on this issue. Plus,what I laid out made this irrelevant anyway as I more than implied they take responsibility for a mistake reguardless of the submission form* I just don't think they have the ability to grade a card while it is still encapsulated ... so I think part of sending the cards in for grading is the assumption that they will be REMOVED from the slabs. The obviously think they can and make quite a bit a money per month doing so! Again -- I am just playing Devil's advocate since that is what lawyers are trained to do. Your more like the Devil's lowest Toady because your points lack foundation based on both the particulars and the stipulations of the agreement you did not read! The Devil is more informed than you here! lol~ Assume for a second that PSA is able to REMOVE your cards from the PSA slabs and give them back to you in the original condition (but unslabbed). I think that BEFORE you can prove in court that you have suffered damages ... you will be REQUIRED to send them back to SGC for grading. YOU ARE 100% INCORRECT AS SGC HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH VIOLATING THEIR OWN CONTRACT. READ GREG'S ADDENDUM RESPONSE FOR DETAILS AS TO HOW THIS IS SO. At that point, you will clearly have suffered damages to the extent that you paid PSA for "nothing" and you had to pay SGC again. WHO said I would pay anything? And who would make me send them to SGC? How they come back from SGC has nothing to do with what happened between myself and PSA. BUT ... if the cards come back to you with the ORIGINAL SGC grades on them again ... then you have NOT lost any "value" on your cards. not my responsibility again to secure this if it were an option which it is not. You will have had a miserable experience ... but you will be back to square one. TYour idea on how it works here after is not an option! HOWEVER ... if they DID come back from SGC with lower grades on them ... THEN you will have proved your point and will have exhaused all opportunities to mitigate your damages. it's implied in crossovers-you send cards in to get equal or better grades! Why else would you do it? They know this and do not according to the contract,crack cards that won't cross from visula viewing in the present holder! Again, I have not read the PSA submission requirements, but I think that it probably says somewhere that they cannot grades cards while they are still slabbed. Heck, I'll bet it even says somewhere that PSA is IMMUNE for any damage done to your card while they are trying to unslab it. OK,and how much would you enjoy loosing here? Your logic about being a "big PSA customer" is not truly relevant, since it almost sounds like you think they will give you whatever grade YOU WANT just to keep you happy your way off the mark here* a) I DID NOT IMPLY,STATE OR ELUDE TO PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT IN ANY WAY,SHAPE OR FORM........ b) I made no comment about being a customer either~ my comment was about being very involved in the REGISTRY thus the Registry people take another area of concern on this issue as it taints to motive for me doing it in the first place-FOR THE REGISTRY*** -- which in a nutshell is what you asked them to do: AGREE with SGC in every case. I DID NOT-GO READ THE CONTRACT. I ASKED THEM TO CROSS CARDS OVER AND AGREED WITH THEM TO HAVE THEM DO SO -ONLY IF THEY MEET EQUAL OR SUPERIOR GRADES ACCORDING TO "THEIR" GRADING STANDARDS-NOT SGC'S!!!! THEY ARE CLEARLY DIFFERENT.....ESPECIALLY ON CENTERING OF HIGH GRADE VINTAGE!!! After all ... what if you had sent in 8 cards that had received a 10 from "PRO" grading service and asked them to be slabbed by PSA? Would you really expect them to agree? That would be akin to "acknowledging" that the competition is on par with PSA. YOUR ASSUMING THEY USE THR SAME STANDARDS!!! THEY DO NOT HG*** Plus-as my wife always say's to me; " That is a what if that doesn't exist so it is irrelavant." GRANTED, I know your MAIN beef is that they removed your cards from the SGC holders tTHAT IS THE ONLY BEEF! AND AGAIN YOUR LOGIC IS OVERRIDDEN BY THE MERE FACTS GREG LAID OUT IN EXPLAINING THE MARKET VALUE OF "PLASTIC". THE VALUE IS IN THE # ASSIGNED NOT THE CARD!!! THIS HAS BEEN OUR CONGLOMMORATE COLLCTORS GRIF FOR ABOUT FIVE YEARS NOW. THAT IS WHY PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD ALWAYS STATE 'BUY THE CARD ,NOT THE PLASTIC" BECAUSE MOST COLLECTORS BUY THE PLASTIC! -- but UNLESS the card PHYSICALLY CHANGED in some way -- I don't "legally" think that you can prevail in showing that the value of the card has diminished. IRRELEVANT-THE PLASTIC CHANGED AND THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS..........PSA AND SGC ARE IN THE "PROFFESSIONAL" PLASTIC ENCAPSULATION BUSINESS...... WHAT THEY ARE DOING IT TO IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE. THE VALUE DIFFERENCE IN THE PLASTIC ASSIGNED GRADE IS ALL THAT MATTERS........ AFTER ALL -- it would only take someone about 10 minutes on this board to point out the 200 vintage card collectors who say: "I don't pay attention to the grading companies -- I inspect them myself before I buy them." this is a minority in the collector World,as WE are a minority. That is why we all know everything about each other and who has what ahd who would bid on what! This community is small to say the least! I think sending the cards back to SGC "raw" will be the best solution ... and then if they "undergrade" them this time ... THEN you can rely on the experts on this board to assess your damages SGC has nothing to do with PSA violating my contract. Third time this has already been proposed to you. This is the legal fact. SGC does not have to be involved in the least. As Greg saud again,they already graded the cards! Brian: Do you still have the carbon copy of your submission form where you clearly stated the "minimum" acceptable grade for your cards?? yes,as wallpaper and toilet paper rolls I am about to auction on e-bay! Pre-1930 Vintage catagory only! And I still think.... September 17 2003, 2:09 PM I do, however, still think that a court of law would require you to resubmit (in raw form) the cards to SGC in an attempt to mitigate your damages. earth the HG- "NO MOMMY" consult a real attorney for details. I did! If they all came back with the original grades, then that would obviously help lessen your claim for damages. please get over this logic of muddying the water with SGC's involvement. It is the wrong road your mind visited here. Listen to Greg! Until you have done this ... the defense (PSA) would still have this argument hanging out there ... and it could prove fatal for your case. HG-I am 5-0 in legal matters against card dealers! I could tell you about my biggy with one of the most well known scumbag dealers in the business! trust me bro-I have been here before.I know what I am doing and really just needed the brotherhood's opinion on Values as a reference for negotiating if they do not recapsulate the cards in the previous grades. Peter at PSA is very amicable thus far.I have hope this will all work out.Doing my homework with numbers to compare is helpful.I do not want a legal issue with these folks.I won some of the friggin stock! I want it to go up not effected by some legal issue over 3-4k. Respond to this message halleygator 216.173.168.250 And to be clear... September 17 2003, 2:14 PM And just to be clear... you should require PSA to REMOVE the cards from their holders and submit them to SGC, NOT YOU!!! This will PREVENT PSA from arguing that you "switched" the cards or damaged them yourself while removing them. Put the pressure on PSA to get SGC to regrade your cards with the original grades. IF PSA CANNOT DELIVER ... then YOU WIN ... assuming that you did make it clear on your submission form that you wanted certain minimum grades. Wediscusse all theese options so thanks for the assurance I am covered. I'll post the results. : )

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Posted By: WesleyBrian, I think you are in good shape here with PSA. Halleygator misunderstood originally, but he has offered some great advise and it looks like everyone is on the same page and wishes for you to come out of this ok. As far as the "real attorney" comment, I can only dream of catching as many ambulances as HG. For all legal matters and matters related to cardboard, I defer to HG. Best of luck to you and give me a call if you have any questions. Wes

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Posted By: HalleygatorBrian: I am glad that you truly appreciate the time that I spent trying to help you with your problem. It makes it all worthwhile when I take 45 minutes out of my busy day to try and help a fellow card collector with some friendly and free advice ... (advice, I might add, that I PREFACED with the fact that I was playing "Devil's Advocate")... to have that person return the favor with a nice and polite "Thank You" like I have received from you. And they say that no good deed goes unpunished ... What do they know? They apparently don't know how friendly and cordial all of us collectors are to each other, and how we try to help each other out and respect each other's opinion. The gratitude that you put forward exemplifies all that is right with the World and right with our hobby. Take care, - Hal PS - I'll kick your ass if I ever see you.

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Posted By: BcDand you would probably be joking you do not know me and will never kick my ass. Now kiss my ass maybe! What I need is $$$ amount differences. Isn't that what I requested? I have all the details on how to deal with this I need. I did not solicit legal advise. I merely asked for figures to compare. How could you have helped me when you do not even read the contract? Being as your whole response was based on a contractual law ,it would seem anyone who wishes to scrutinize it from that vantage point would first look at the contract they are commenting on! However you took my response is ok with me but I need #'s! #'s are reality here and all else will not matter in the negotiating end of this.

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Posted By: Joe Renwick BcD- Let me get this straight, you, according to your own words, were "warned but did it anyway! I sent some SGC graded Mello Mints & George Close Candy cards et into PSA to get crossed over for no other reason than to add to the cards from these sets to register for fun." You are warned not to do this;you do it anyway for some kind of bragging rights, and now cry like a baby when it doesn't work out? "Please give me advise U in the know, boo hoo." HG gives his educated two cents and you slam him? Now it is turning into an "I can kick your ass" debate. You're no better than another Dr. Koos on 'roids.

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Posted By: BcD1) my complaint was with PSA not with anyone on this board. 2) I di BcD- Let me get this straight, you, according to your own words, were "warned but did it anyway! I sent some SGC graded Mello Mints & George Close Candy cards et into PSA to get crossed over for no other reason than to add to the cards from these sets to register for fun. " You are warned ( by friends ) not to do this;you do it anyway for some kind of bragging rights, ( read above *******-I register cards for "fun" what did you miss ) and now cry like a baby when it doesn't work out? I cried about nothing but you revise my initial post however you want. I asked for cost comparisons,nothing more. "Please give me advise U in the know, boo hoo." you put your imagination in quotes? I'll bet a pal of yours put you up to posting this! It's inane at best. HG gives his educated two cents and you slam him? Now it is turning into an "I can kick your ass" debate. There is no debate and I am not the "educated" ******* who stated anything about being violant. Something a real attorney would never be involved in. But for the record,it's funny because no one in card collecting who has ever threatened me did it. And the last two out of shape slobs who tried were both hurt and one of them was carted off to jail.I'll bank on expertese here and experience to prevail in any such case as anyone wants to play with me.I am the type who enjoys brawls.After fighting on the Air Force Jiu-Jitsu team and having the same Brazilian training and history as Wes,the threats arew a joke to me.I suspect if your another guy gonna be on the list of those who threatened me you have some tune up fights first.I do and anyone who is not used to fighting and has to play with me is going to have some serious problems.Should I leave a few names for you to be convinced of this? I will gladly brag of my resume. I did not have 13 orthopedic surgeries and titanium "anchor" tendon implants for nothing. Now of course I'll get a bunch of rebukes for stating something other's aren't able to and hypocritical pride comments out of jealously. This crap happenes anytime you stae anything that is too competitive. You're no better than another Dr. Koos on 'roids. Does anyone on here know you? How much were you paid to write this garbage? As Steve Martin say's to Kirk Douglass' gang in "Dead man don't wear plaid", "How much did he pay you,i'll pay you double and you beat the **** out of him!" 1)You like Wally Gator need to read what I wrote and learn some comprehension skills. I did not ask for any advice from anyone.I merely asked for value comparisons-period! His wasted 45 minutes because I guess he types real slow. Posting a contractual commentary on assumptions without even reading or knowing what the contract is! Now that's helpful! Here is an excerpt from an e-mail sent to me- " can scratch him off of the list of recommended attorney's. if i came in to court drunk and on 3 hours of sleep i could run circles around him. i hope that he is not practicing anymore. " and this was mailed to me- "is this guy smoking something? what good deed did he do and why is he threatening to kick your ass? it is because he was made to look like an amateur at his occupation. amazing that he actually went to school for this. are you certain that his degree was not purchased from the back of a magazine? the best part of his posts were the valuation that he placed on the change in grades. " I merely asked for dollar figures. There IS no legal action pending! Why do I even have to consider it when Peter at customer service is ammicable towards resolution. Frankly, gaynor took my quick response the wrong way. I read it. it just had nothing to do with what I asked and he assummed I guess there is legal action involved here. But obviously these e-mail excerpts would conclude your conclusion is in a minority. 3) "Koos" is not Koos but actually Danny Dupwhatever,convict on probation who threatened the guys who sold him the Mantle and Jackson card who then replied by telling him to stop or they would contact The NY District attorneys office with the written threats and wella-good bye "doctor". He stopped. ///// Now-no crying and no remorse either. There is only the idea of resolving by comparing the cost difference in the given grades. ////// just thought I would I would write this again being as it is the jist of what was originally asked apart from the the follow ups that are going down hill.

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Posted By: BcDaccording to the faux poster above mine anyone who Registers cards is "braging". So the very person you defend is braging then right? <a href="http://www.psacard.com/new_set_registry/display_cards.chtml?rsetid=2006&alltime=yes&rank=5 &tied=0&requesttimeout=9999" target=_new>http://www.psacard.com/new_set_registry/display_cards.chtml?rsetid=2006&alltime=yes&rank=5 &tied=0&requesttimeout=9999</a> braging is always a problem for the pride in those who think thwy have to police other people's pride. psoting a picture of a card or Registering your set your building is braging......I don't think so!

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Posted By: HalleygatorThe concept of "mitigation of damages" is basic law, so anyone who e-mailed you and does NOT understand this concept is wasting your time and mine. I think it is clear to everyone who has the "anger management" problem here. If you want to talk about "running circles around someone in court" ... just watch how any skilled trial attorney does when he puts you and your temper on the witness stand. I could have the jury angry with you in less than a minute. Your threats don't bother me. I boxed in the Navy and then played college baseball in the SEC Conference, and at 36 am still in fighting shape. I apologize to the rest of you on the Board for having wasted your time with all of this. I tried to help out a fellow collector. My bad.

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Posted By: ....anon post Elliot

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Posted By: ElliotJoe Renwick, Please contact me or your post will be deleted. Elliot

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Posted By: halleygatorI guess I should thank Joe Renwick for supporting me in case his post gets deleted. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Then again, Elliot, since Brian didn't like my posts and the thread got off track, it won't hurt my feelings at all for you to just delete all of my posts and his responses since they don't add anything that anyone else was interested in. Whatever you feel is best is OK with me.

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Posted By: BCDI wrote you about Elliot! That is the connection you asked me about. An insecure baby who goes off anytime I post anything anbout anything I have in cards or anything else. Doesn't miss a puck shot. It' a midwest thing I guess.

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Posted By: BcDIt's the person I wrote you about Elliot. Always with the spinelss digs on "braging". His favorite little pride issue. Hides and uses others to stir up crap when the pot is being stired already. Check your e-mail .

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Posted By: Jay MillerBrian--Shame on you. Hal, who is more skilled in his field than any of us in cartophilics, tried to help you and you show no gratitude. If you thought his advice was irrelevant then you should have said thanks for taking the time I think I'm fine as is. He didn't need to waste his time on your problem; he was just trying to be helpful.

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Posted By: Brian C DanielsI think it is clear... September 18 2003, 6:47 AM The concept of "mitigation of damages" is basic law, so anyone who e-mailed you and does NOT understand this concept is wasting your time and mine. I think it is clear to everyone who has the "anger management" problem here. If you want to talk about "running circles around someone in court" ... just watch how any skilled trial attorney does when he puts you and your temper on the witness stand. I could have the jury angry with you in less than a minute. Your threats don't bother me. But Jerk man,it was YOU who did the threatening! I boxed in the Navy and then played college baseball in the SEC Conference, and at 36 am still in fighting shape. Oh really! Tell me. When was the last time you were actually in a fight??? You have pencil arms from your picture on your web site. And look like an almost grown up Eddie Munster. You might want to do the research your pea brain is continuously devoid of as you will find I have a history you will not be interested in bothering with. I suggest you Ask Wesley about my background in jui-jitsu pally.Ask Wesley,an attorney! Being as we were both trained by the same Brazilian fighting team,he'll clue you in. YOU are the fool who wrote a threat and now can't even comprehend your own comments! an excpert for a letter this morning that made me laugh: " I think that he has challenged you to a fight. What a civilized guy he is. An attorney? A professional? I am willing to put up the amount that PSA owes and all travel expenses you to watch you go punish him. Talk about mitigating damages...That will only take less than a minute. " THE ABOVE SAYS IT ALL HEINE GATOR. What's even funnier is a friend of Phoney Joe Renwick wrote this to me! anger management???? Hello! Earth to pencil arms. Your a joke. and your kidding yourself. YOU write this!!!~ "PS-I'll kick your ass if I ever meet you" What's the matter Puke? I don't look for trouble.....but if it finds me I just destroy it.I'm good at it and it's easy for me! Go run my record to view how many times I have been to jail for fighting in public. Go ask Rosen what happened to him when he tried your petty act. You just projected your threat to the wrong guy.I find joy in fighting.I love it! You won't want to mess with a guy in real shape if you met me.The flames in my eyes alone will torch your sorry ass. You would find yourself with hyper exstended joints followed by a hearing with my attorney. A real one that is.Your boxing skills will look good on your back with me arm baring you to tears. Threats through a public chat board. You are as professional as the drool on my daught's Pooh Bear. Give me a break Putz. If you need to pretend to be a big man,feel free to call me. if not,stick to cards something you may know a little about at the young tender age of 36. He needs to stick to card collecting and stop pretending to be a lawyer. I apologize to the rest of you on the Board for having wasted your time with all of this. I tried to help out a fellow collector. My bad.

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Posted By: ElliotI think this thread has lived it's useful life---please let it die.

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Posted By: warshawlawI sent SGC several cards on PSA holders that I felt were 'tweeners. All came back a grade higher (e.g., 7 to 7.5).

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Posted By: Dan MckeePeter is an idiot and immediately considered me a liar and a scammer before any investigation was done with my lost Magie. The guy is a 1st class JERK that should not be dealing with people!