Wow! As a seller, how could Probstein not know this? Especially when he mails the card and the auction check to the same address! But I'm sure someone will chime in, making excuses for him saying that he does a lot of volume, blah, blah, blah and doesn't pay attention to all that.

It's not considered a shill. He placed one max bid, and as long as eBay gets paid, no problem.


Does anyone know it eBay has any specific rules about consignments? This is a relatively new area and while they prohibit (and prevent) someone from bidding on their own listing, I'm not sure that ownership is a qualifying factor currently.

Hmmm.... Moral outrage from a guy who dodges jury duty. How can anyone take it seriously considering the source.

Steve B

+1

Wow. Great attitude.

I'm sure Probstein is quite aware of the situation, and we honestly have no way of knowing how/if they're handling it. I would hope they would no longer accept consignments from this person/user.

The solution is quite simple really. The problem here is that Probstein has no power as the Ebay seller, as per Ebay's rules, to not complete the transaction with the winning bidder unless specific conditions are listed in the auctions. Probsten would have to, and more importanly should have to, specifically write into their auction listing that the consignor is not eligible to bid on the auction. And they should require any consignor to release to them their Ebay ID prior to listing.

When I made that statement, I knew it would offend some of the self righteous hypocrites on the board. Obviously it did. At least I have the balls to speak the truth, whether you agree with what I said or not.

I don’t see any difference between dodging jury duty or the other folks in that thread speaking of ways to dodge it or asking advice on how to dodge it. Why didn’t you address those folks? Because your comment wasn’t really about jury duty, was it? It was really a way to divert the attention from the real issue here - Probstein allowing his bidders to shill their own auctions.

The smart ones will see that and stick to the issue, the dumb ones will make additional comments about jury duty.

I've always wondered what's the point of consigning an item to a seller on eBay... Now I know! It's a legal shilling loophole! Wow what a bunh of greedy bastards.

matt...agreed!!! It shouldn't really matter who's selling a card on ebay(as long as it's real and not missrepresented).

Like

As long as you're having fun and the responses are not creating too much angst for you, I say go for it.

David your statement does bother me, because the right to a jury trial -- which I very seriously doubt you want to do away with or compromise -- does depend on ordinary citizens cooperating with their civic obligations to serve. Does that make me a self-righteous hypocrite?

Only if you choose to use my words against me, while ignoring the others in that thread who also shared ways or asked advice on how to get out of jury duty. Now, if you wish to continue to discuss the topic, let's move it over to that thread.

Agreed...and thanks to all for keeping it civil while arguing ;).


.

I didn't participate in the other thread so I'll reply to those accusations here. As I said, I didn't participate in the other thread. Mostly because my advice would be to stay.
I've been called 3 times, and served all 3. Mass has a one day one trial system. Twice I never got to the courtroom, third time I was dismissed almost immediately. (Date rape trial, I was 35 and single. The prosecutor sent me home. If he'd only known my attitude towards some things. )

I don't shill bid.

So no hypocrisy here.

I didn't address other folks, because most of them were mentioning legitimate reasons for not serving. That's part of the system, and someone can be excused before serving if the court finds the reason acceptable.

I did make my comment because you chose to push your hypocrisy by reviving a thread that had pretty much faded to an end. Yes, you have the balls to speak the truth as you see it. Which is fine but annoying as heck if it's just restating the same stuff over again.

And, some on topic questions.

Do you sell on Ebay?
Do you run thousands of auctions every month?
If yes do you check the ID of every bidder on every auction to make sure it's not the consigner?
Do you check the relationships of every bidder to make sure they aren't the consigners friends/relatives?
If so, how do you find the time? Probstein has over 21,000 current items and just over 3000 auctions. If checking took only one minute each that would be more than 48 hours of work:eek:

He's already said he blocked the consigner. I'm not sure just what you expect him to do? Block all consigners who are probably also customers? Ebay won't let you block buyers from one auction but not another.

Realistically, all someone can do with that sort of volume is block them if they're caught.

I do think there's something with the consignor and PSA that should be looked into. If I was in charge of PSA I would. But It would also be kept as an internal matter unless I found a big problem.

Steve Birmingham

Hello, Steve :D

What? No answers to the on topic questions? I can use smaller words if you need that.

Steve B

Let's just all agree that shill bidding is ok, as long as its in a place where it's too hard to police it.

Thread over.

LOL. That is hilarious.

the problem with this logic is the person who is schill bidding or under bidding, (which ultimately are the same thing, the user bidding on their own item) is that the person doesn't know what is going to happen after they put their bid in.

right? at the time of committing the act, they are essentially the same thing.

that is like saying, i robbed the bank, when it was illegal, but they made it legal a year later so its ok that i did it. the problem with that is you don't get out of jail because its now legal to rob banks. obviously robbing banks is a bad example but you get the point.

kevin

The ironic point of this thread are the people mocking someone for paying X dollars for a piece of cardboard with a picture on it, when they themselves pay 2X dollars for a piece of cardboard with a different picture on it.

+1

[QUOTE=honus94566;1026687]I don't see any problem with what went down on ebay. Someone got the card re-graded, and someone was dumb enough to pay 3K+ for a 73 art shell.

No way that I am going to believe simply that "Someone got the card regraded". This is total BS and you wont convince me that there wasn't a "payoff" in there somewhere...............

Which leads to my final point - I buy PSA slabs to resell - I buy SGC slabs to keep.............

And he can keep bragging that his is bigger than yours.
The registry thing is such a scam,,, just a marketing idea that struck gold for the TPA.
Hope they never try it with autographs,,, we have enough problems on that end but thank goodness no registry crap.

You mean PSA employees are not honest?? OMG I never knew.

I just saw this on the CU Board. There was a 1968 Topps Ryan rookie that was recently graded PSA 10 (the first and only) and according to Joe Orlando the card sold privately for $400,000.

Reading through the thread, one poster (Last post on Page 2) made this statement, which I have no reason to doubt since it would seem highly unlikely that the allegedly finest example just recently turned up:

I was at the Cow Palace show and at the PSA booth this guy said he has sent in his card 20 times and finally got the grade he wanted.

So there you go.


If this is true, then the submitter netted an easy $375,000 on this bump-up and a collector paid that extra $375,000 for a card that 19 out of 20 times was graded PSA 9 (or maybe less several times).

What insanity!

Here's the thread:

http://forums.collectors.com/message...05&STARTPAGE=1

Dan- do the graders know if a card they are examining is being submitted for the twentieth time? Would that kind of pressure them into finally giving it that hoped for bump, especially if it is a good customer?

I won't even go into why there is someone out there who feels it's a 400K card. That's for another time.

What insanity! I don't know if that is good for the hobby, or bad for the hobby. I am torn.

Barry,

It's my understanding that as a "PSA policy" a PSA grader is not supposed to know who the submitter is.

But you bring up another good point. PSA made a lot of money on this same card and probably other cards from the same submitter since cracking out and bumping up has become a business in itself for a number of dealers and I don't know of any public discouragement by PSA to instruct submitters from playing the "crack-out" game.

I don't know about pressure, but what about incentive? A dirty grader (and I believe there are some) might be tempted to bump a card if he knew the submitter and there was something in it for him - say like 5% ($19K) or 10% ($38K) of the profit?

If I were the authorities and had any inkling of wrongdoing, or was investigating the hobby, I would probably have a conversation with the grader that bumped the card, the submitter and the graders manager. It wouldn't hurt to to see what they would say...

And if it's true that the card went from a 9 to a 10 after that many bumps, then I really don't know what to say about the people playing the "10" game. I wouldn't want to be the last one holding that potato though. :eek:

I give the owner credit for persistence.

Dan- I realize submissions are supposed to be anonymous. But take a high profile card like that, and assume the same grader has seen it at least a few times over that period, and it's really not all that anonymous anymore. When you are working at a company full time, you get to know alot about what is going on, and most would certainly recognize that card. I mean, we're talking about the same card in the grading room twenty times!

David- I've always been concerned with graders accepting money under the table. That's why it's so difficult to take any of these grades seriously. Of course, I have no idea what may actually go on.

This information just strengthens my mantra (shared by many others) of buy the card and not the holder.

That is inherent in third party grading.

I believe if you agree with a grade, take it seriously. If not, then don't. We grade the graders with our choices of what specific cards we choose for our collections.

Sometimes the card meets the stated criteria and looks great. Sometimes it meets the criteria, but lacks eye appeal. Sometimes the card is under graded, and merits a bump-- if one wants that third-party validation or enhancement of their financial outlay, or is just out to flip it for profit. TPGs are just rendering their opinion, that's all it is, end of the day. And different graders will assign different grades to different cards on different days. It's also a business for profit; hence it's in their best interest to err on the side of stringent grading, so as to spur submissions for reviews or crack and resubs.

If this is true (I don't necessarily doubt it but it's slim evidence) I'm impressed that a card that has been cracked out of a holder and mailed back and forth so many times is still anywhere near a 10.

It really is bizarre in one sense that putting a different flip on the same card makes a $375 K difference. But there is a market for flips that is now just as strong as the market for cards, so that's how it goes. PS In my opinion there is no meaningful difference between a 9 and 10 other than the flip. But in a market for flips that is a meaningful difference.

Frankly, IMHO, this is the stupidity of buying 10's when there is often little if any difference with a 9 other than 10X the price tag.

I'd even extend that to apply to all cards in adjacent grades. If you'd really like a 6, there's one hiding out in an elite 5 holder somewhere, etc. Buy the card.

You know what they say....in the land of the blind a one-eyed man is king!!

And beauty is in the eye of the beholder of the holder.

I had been thinking that beauty was on the flip of the holder, but your quote is much better.

I do think folks can espouse different collecting philosophies without indirectly crapping on what 10-buyers like to do with their loot-- my earlier post about seeking the lower grade example is just how I do it. If someone loves a 10, be happy.

Wow, that's some bump! I suppose if a seller has the stomach for repeatedly cracking out and sending back a multi-thousand dollar card, it is possible to get lucky. Doesn't make the result less random or subjective, though. It is still alchemy and I still think those who drink the PSA Kool-Aid are in for a rude awakening when the music stops playing.

I like that, well said. It's just utter madness.

I don't follow that Ryan card, but it look top grade to me. Lots of talk about graders being greased and buyers buying flips...anyone have opinions on why that card is not one of the best graded?

Well it's really hard to tell what is the best without seeing many of the other Ryan rookies that graded 9.

But for me personally there are several issues that are bothersome. First, the subjectivity of grading in itself that could change the value of the card by $375,000 is disturbing. The corners of that card on both sides better be perfect under 10X magnification. It's a safe guess that they are not otherwise they would have received a PSA 10 grade the first time submitted.

Then there's the Mint vs. Gem Mint debate. If one is going to differentiate different mint cards as some being better than others, then for me, a Gem Mint card should be unimprovable in every aspect to warrant such a designation. I'm certain under some scrutiny that this PSA 10 Ryan rookie will have some flaws.

Then there's the issue of investing a lot of money into cards that could be altered. I have no idea if this Ryan card is altered or not. Of course we also don't know if some or all of the previous 19 submissions received the Evidence of Trimming designation. But I'm now convinced that if someone wants to get doctored cards graded, with a enough persistence it will happen and that's why I have little interest in tying up money in vintage "mint" or "gem mint" cards.

But to each his own or as an old hobby dinosaur used to tell me, "There's a paddle for every behind."

My only question would be if the seller already knows what grade he will get before he cracks the card and resubmits ? That's where the rub is or the money is I guess .

None of the pic links work anymore. If anyone has the pics or the cert# to the cards mentioned in this thread, then I can add them to the Altered Card Database.

I have seen Pank in action
 

I've seen Joe up close and personal. He definitely will crack out, press corners, edges, etc., and re-submit to PSA on anything he thinks has a chance. What I learned is that SGC graders (at least back in the day) would always press corners, edges as necessary B4 grading a subbed card, whereby, PSA does absolutely nothing of the kind. That said, it makes perfect sense for P21, or anyone to practice the "art" of cracking out and re-subbing to PSA. I am guessing a multitude of collectors on this very thread do it. I admit I do...