1896 Paterson Silk Weavers w/ Honus Wagner - Magic Lantern?
 

I have the following 3.25" x 4" glass slide of the 1896 Paterson Silk Weavers with Honus Wagner, but I am not quite sure what it is. My best guess is a Magic Lantern slide, but I know very little about them so it is really just a guess.

Thanks in advance.

Bryan-I’m gonna guess it is not period

Early 1900s, as glass was discontinued in the 1930s. But, as said, probably not 1896.

So it is Pre-War

Thanks. I agree with both of you that 1896 is out. Knowing that these were discontinued in 1930 helps a lot, so a 1910-1930 range, while wide, is nice to know.

Thanks again for the input!

1930s not 1930.

I think 1900s-10s is a fair guess.

Actually have a small collection of baseball related Magic Lantern Slides (MLS), mostly from the mid-nineteen-teens. Got them from a photography collector who told me a little bit about them. One thing I learned was that period Magic Lantern Slides were professionally produced and mostly used for advertisement and entertainment purposes. And they often had the name of the advertiser, or whoever made or produced it, somewhere on the slide, either on the actual glass slide itself so the advertiser's name would be part of the projected image the viewers would see, or more so in the case of the slide's producer, printed somewhere on the paper border that covered the front and back edges of the slide. In the case of your item, I'm referring to what looks like a black border going all around your slide. I'm assuming that black border on your slide is covered in or made up of some kind of heavy paper or cardboard, correct? It doesn't look like there is any advertiser or producer's name showing on the glass slide itself, so what about on the border itself, is anything printed on either side of the surrounding border? If so, it might give you a lead to research for some further info on the slide.

From what I can see from your scans, there doesn't seem to be any printing on the borders at all though, and the borders themselves don't look to be very consistent or professionally added, like you would expect from a true, commercially produced, Magic Lantern Slide. I'm beginning to think this isn't a true, professionally produced Magic Lantern Slide, but instead maybe something created from a glass negative (called a positive) of an actual picture taken of the team? In other words, some non-professional trying to create their own homemade Magic Lantern Slide? The 1896 date is in the ballpark timewise for the process of using a glass negative to then create a glass positive, which could then have been used as a MLS. There were actually kits sold back then for people to personally create their own MLS. In using such kits they would have possibly used some border tape to go all around the edges of the glass positive, which is kind of what it looks like around the edges of your item, like it was wrapped in old electrician's tape. Look up images of Magic Lantern Slides online and you'll see what I mean about professionally produced MLS. They were meant to be used in a projection machine (like more modern slide projectors) and need to be a standard, uniform size. Something about your item doesn't quite seem to fit that mold. I am no photography expert, but am not so sure it is a true, professionally prepared Magic Lantern Slide from the period. Good question is if it was created from a true glass negative, what happened to the negative? Also, can you research and find a copy of this image or team picture anywhere to prove a glass negative once existed that pictures were actually printed or made from? If so, that could help to prove such a negative did in fact exist at one time from which this supposed MLS item you have was made. I find it a little hard to believe though that some amateur would have taken a team picture in 1896 to simply just create a MLS from. A logical reason for thinking a MLS for this would likely have been created some time after the original photo was taken, the question is, how long after? Assuming the image is legitimately created from an original 1896 photo negative, that is a great photo item including Wagner from his last year before joining the Pirates. Good luck with your research.

I missed your reply, thanks Bob!

You are correct, I don't see any advertising on this and the borders seem like a heavy paper/thick tape, so I think you might be right on with your thinking that this was a kit-produced piece instead of something made for professional distribution - something of a DIY MLS.

This image is known as a cabinet card: https://www.nj.com/passaic-county/20...s-for-90k.html

I am not sure if there is any way to know whether that was produced from a glass negative or not.

Based on all of the good advice in this thread, this seems to be to most likely be a non-professional Magic Lantern Slide that wasn't produced in 1896 but is more likely from the height of Wagner's fame with the Pirates when someone would have wanted to show an old photo of him, so maybe ~1905-1915 would be reasonable.

Hey Bryan,

You could tell in a heartbeat if that was a professionally produced Magic Lantern Slide (MLS). Since your item is on glass, it does seem that someone may have tried to produce their own MLS from the earlier picture. And the fact that you were able to track down and find the actual cabinet/picture is fanatastic as that verifies the subject matter of the item, and that it definitely includes Wagner. A great item, even if produced later than when the photo was originally taken. I doubt it would be the original glass negative from the actual 1896 photo though.

Again, I am no photo expert, but it may be worthwhile to get your item to someone who is, and see if they can tell you any more about it. Great item and image none the less. Imagine there is also some value to the piece as well. Getting it to a photo expert who knows something about MLSs could get you a better idea of how, and when, it was made.

Can't tell for certain from your scans how clear and defined the image is on your glass slide. But as I mentioned before, I have a small collection of about 15-20 baseball themed MLSs primarily from the mid-1910s, and the clarity and definition on those is absolutely amazing. Can only hope your glass slide image is of a similar condition/shape.

Good luck.

Interesting mystery

Great piece of history

Here's a pin made from the same image, including a copyright date: https://www.hakes.com/Auction/ItemDe...-AND-ED-BARROW

And here's an interesting history on the company that made it. Don't know whether they had anything to do with the slide, but maybe you can glean some clues: https://www.tedhake.com/viewuserdefi...e.aspx?pn=whco

Bryan, where do find these things? You always dig up such cool pieces and your historical descriptions/explanations are awesome.

Go Badgers!

Bryan, Out of curiosity, how thick would you say your glass slide is? The ones I have from different years/manufacturers all seem to be exactly the same, about 1/8" thick, or maybe a hair under that. I woulde assume such a standard thickness would be to fit the projectors they were made for. Mine are all the exact same 4" X 3-1/4" dimensions that you said your slide is as well. So if the thickness is similar that would seem to indicate someone was trying to create some kind of magic lantern slide from that 1896 image, even if only a homemade one from a kit.

And where did you find that, as Rhotchkiss was asking?

I am always looking everywhere and for everything. :) I am glad that you enjoy the effort I put into spinning a yarn every now and then - often those threads get so few comments that I wonder whether they are worth the effort.

Spot on again Bob! It (the slide :D) is exactly 1/8" thick.

Then if it is the same dimensions all around as the pfofessionally created Magic Lantern Slides, that must be what your item was intended for as well. Would seem too coincidental otherwise. Just never seen one where the material used for the border around the glass looks so sloppily attached, the written description looks to be somewhat erractically handwritten on, and there are no markings or logos as to who made it. My guess is it is either a MLS someone tried to create from one of the home kits they apparently made for MLSs back in the very early 1900s or, maybe it was a professionally prepared MLS, but somehow the original border got damaged and whatever was left of it was removed and replaced with tape/cardboard by someone trying to fix it so it could still be used. Regardless, it looks to be a great piece. And just think how cool it would be to actually have a projector that could blow that image up and project it on a wall somewhere.

A great find. I'd still try to get it in the hands of someone who's a photo and MLS expert and see if they can pin down a date for you around when this was actually created. Since they actually sold kits to make these at home 100+ years ago, I assume someone could have tried to make this in very recent years. But if so, and they were doing it to try and make some money off it, you'd think they'd have used a much more famous and iconic image, not such an obscure and not widely known one. And again, that is why if it were mine, I'd like an expert to examine it, in person, to make sure it isn't the equivalent of like a modern reprint. I don't think it is recently made though, I think you have a very cool item at least around 100 years or so old.

Given the age on the border material and the patina on the glass, I would be shocked if this were modern, I can say that. So I think we still end up with it most likely being a kit-produced MLS made some time during the peak of Wagner's career being a pretty solid guess.

I really appreciate all of the help everyone has provided!

I find it interesting that the image of the cabinet photo in the Hakes auction has Identical damage to the MLS.

Again, not a photo expert, but would/could that be a positive that they were both made from the same damaged negative/photo?

Nice spot Bill, I didn't notice that but you are 100% correct. So the slide I have almost had to have been made by taking a picture of the exact photo from Hake's.

That damage looks like a broken corner and a crack on a glass negative.

Both a print and a transparency could be made from the same negative. Which was probably the same negative used for the cabinet in REA, which is cropped differently - a trivial thing to do in the photo lab.