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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I think it would be interesting to conduct a survey, debate, or whatever<br /> regarding the scarce cards in the E90-1 set. I have started with my list<br />of 20 cards that I recall from completing this set. Most of these are re-<br />cognized in price guides; but, I think there are more that haven't been.<br /><br />My theory for expanding this list is based on my speculation that this set<br />was printed on sheets comprising 30 cards. There is a precedent for this<br /> theory as an uncut sheet of 30 cards exists for the E93 Caramel set. And,<br /> the E93 set was printed in the greater Philadelphia area, as was the E90-1.<br />No uncut sheets of E90-1 cards have been found, so this is just a theory.<br /><br />Last Series (scarce) cards......<br /> <br />Fred Clarke.........2nd card....corrected team to Pittsburgh<br />Hugh Duffy.........Became Manager of Chicago (AL) in 1910<br />George Gibson.....2nd card (back view)....Pittsburgh<br />Jerry Upp...........1-year career with Clev. (in 1909)<br />Ed Walsh............Chicago (AL)<br />Vic Willis............Traded to St Louis (NL) in 1910<br />Cy Young...........2nd card....traded to Clev. in 1909<br /><br />Boston Players excluded in the earlier Series....<br /><br />Peaches Graham (NL)<br />Ed Karger (AL)<br />Dave Shean (NL)<br />Tris Speaker (AL)<br />Jake Stahl (AL)<br />Bill Sweeney (NL)<br /><br />Cincinatti Players excuded in the earlier Series....<br /><br />Larry McLean<br />Mike Mitchell<br /><br />All 5 Horizontal cards in set I think were printed in Last Series....<br /><br />Buster Brown.......Boston (NL)<br />Charlie Hall..........Boston (AL)<br />Addie Joss..........1910 was his last year (2nd card)<br />Willie Keeler........depicted as NY Giant (3rd card)<br />Johnny Seigle......Cinc.<br /><br />OK guys.....let's get your inputs or your criticisms ?<br /><br /><br />Additional Last Series candidates.....as of 7/8/06<br /><br />Harry Bemis.........Clev.<br />Bob Bescher........Cinc.<br />Hans Lobert........Cinc.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Gary Nuchereno</b><p>Lobert belongs on the tough to find list and possibly Leach batting. Would this mean the color variation on Keeler<br />portrait was not just a color variation?
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Gary<br /><br />Thanks for noting Hans Lobert, his card is definitely a "toughie". And, he is<br />another Cinc. player left out of the earlier Series. He will be added to the list.<br /><br />It's interesting that you mention the PINK Keeler card. As there have been<br />some who have thought that this card is just the result of a color printing<br />error of his normally RED background card. But, the PINK Keeler cards are<br />quite available, which would suggest that it is in the set by design. <br />
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Brian C Daniels</b><p>you know an awful lot for a young guy! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Paul Kaufman</b><p>Ted - Gary N. mentioned the Keeler portrait Red. Is it possible that the Keeler portrait card was re-issued in the last series using the same red background color as the red in the Keeler Throwing variety ? That would mean that it was not just a "color variation" but a distinct issue in and of itself. Doesn't it seem odd that it is considered the only "color variation" in the E90-1 set ?
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Paul Kaufman</b><p>Looking closely at the Keeler Portrait Pink, Keeler's flesh tones are washed out and blend in with the pink background. Maybe the card was re-issued with the red background (on the final print sheet?) to better contrast with his face tones. This re-issuance on the final print run would explain its scarcity.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>B.C.D.<br /><br />Thanx for making me feel younger....but, according to the recent Thread<br />regarding members' age....I think it indicated that I'm the oldest.<br /><br />This is my 30th year in this hobby and you can learn an awful lot in that<br /> time; especially if you are an avid vintage set collector as I am. Of more<br />importance....you meet a tremendous group of people in this hobby that<br /> have become great lifetime friends.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Bob Shannon</b><p>E90-1 Keeler Pink and Red<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1152453680.JPG"> <br><br><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1140094944.JPG">
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Interestingly, a pink card could be nothing more than a red card missing some ink. As Ted knows, red 1949 Bowmans can be found with pink backgrounds and are considered nothing more than color variations. But in E90-1, the pink and red variations are considered distinct and both are needed to finish the set.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Gross</b><p>Ted (et al),<br /><br />I just don't know ...... Been on this e90-1 ride for almost two years, and am 115/120th of the way home. Every theory I hear for the variances in quantities makes total sense, but so does the argument against each theory.<br /><br />Obviously cards were added in later prints. Were they added or just replaced others, I don't know (but lean toward replacements). Although there is no check list, I have to think a “chase” incentive was there (by design, I don't know). The “team” aspect is so blatant, it can't be overlooked. If you add Fromme to the tough list (and maybe not top 30, but close), then ALL (6) Cincinnati are tough. The Boston situation is real also. Conversely, of the 12 Phila. A's players, only Jackson is “tough” (but an oddity). Also, other than HOFers, Brooklyn, Detroit, NY AL, StL NL, and Washington, have no super rarities. Notable, but hard to explain.<br /><br />I do have to theorize that “100 Subjects” was probably never a set number. Ol' American Caramel knew this promotion was going to last a few years, and the 100 mark would be reached at some point. I almost take a “it just happened that way” approach, in that Am. Caramel kind of went along it's merry way, adding, replacing, correcting, dropping players over a period of time. <br /><br />We may just be trying to make sense of something that really had no design .... but man, is it FUN !!!<br /><br />IMHO, for the 30 toughest list, add:<br />Dougerty (another one of those familiar fronts, but tough e90)<br />Overall<br />Wagner/throw (not as HOF, but relative to batting pose)<br /><br />(I might also lower Willis, Buster Brown, and Hall on the tough list)<br /><br />Shameless ego-plug, check out July pick-ups ............. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Scott, you wrote that the Jackson is tough. Is that due to people wanting to keep that card and not sell it or does it really seem fewer exist?
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jackson is considered a low level toughie, a bit scarcer than a typical common. But of course the demand on the card is enormous, making it seem even tougher than it really is.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Returning to my original post about the Keeler- because Keeler is the only player in the set with three poses, and because any player that appears twice has two distinct poses, do most people think the pink-red variation was deliberate or just a substantial print run where the red ink simply wasn't used. There are no other instances in the set where the same pose appears twice. That would of course reduce the number of different cards to 119, but hey, we still haven't worked out all the kinks.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Are there other red background cards that have more of a pinkish look? All the red background cards I have are nice rich red background with no signs of any low inkage. Those include the Cy Young Boston card (won in Barry's November 2005 auction BTW, thanks), Summers, Mitchell, McQuillan, Pastorius and Ellis. Do any of these cards exist with a lighter red / pinkish look? <br />
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Scott<br /><br />Just checked out your two great E90-1 acquistions....great going. That is the 1st time<br />I have seen a "Big Ed" Walsh since I sold my set.<br /><br />The skewed cut that is on your Walsh is the same (top & bottom cut) as was on my<br />Mike Mitchell. And, probably your Mitchell was trimmed as it had the same skewed cut.<br />Is there a possible pattern here (from this small anectdotal sample) that perhaps, we<br />can glean from these examples......that when E90-1 cards were cut like this, Quality<br /> Control disposed of many of them ?<br /><br />I know this is sort of a "stretch"; but, I am trying to come up with some additional ex-<br />planation for why players such as Duffy, Mitchell, Speaker, Bill Sweeney and Walsh are<br /> on a higher level of scarcity than others in this last Series.<br /><br />Scott....Can you please post these two cards on this Thread so readers can see what<br />we are talking about.<br /><br />T-Rex Ted
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>cmoking<br /><br />Kitty Bransfield....PINK & BLUE cards<br /><br />Tippy Hartzell......PINK & GREEN cards
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>King- I don't recall ever seeing any of the others with pink backgrounds, but I can't fathom why some of the Keelers would be printed with red backgrounds and then for no apparent reason they would be changed to pink- or vice versa. What is the thinking there? I understand a team change or a variant pose, but why change the background, and only on that one card?
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ted- but the Bransfield and Hartsell are different poses.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Zach Rice</b><p>Here is a picture of my old Walsh, the scan doesnt give the orange background justice.<br /><br /><a href="http://tinypic.com"><img src="http://i6.tinypic.com/1zfkign.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Barry and Ted,<br /><br />I was thinking that if there were other red background cards that had a pinkish look to it, that would give some credence to the theory that the Keeler pink card was due to low inkage. In the absence of other red backgrounds and pink background cards (like the Keeler) with the same exact image, that theory seems to have less support.<br /><br />Also, with the two pink background cards that Ted mentioned, it seems the printers deliberately printed cards with the pink background and it wasn't a low inkage.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Barry<br /><br />I am aware of the different poses....the only point I am trying to make is<br />that PINK INK was a normal background color employed on several E90-1<br /> cards. I really don't think the Pink Keeler is a printing error; similar to the<br /> 1949 Bowman (or T206) "pink" cards.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>But in Ted's examples those were entirely different poses. The two Keeler poses are identical. Why would they change the color of the background in midproduction? What would be the thinking there?
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>gary nuchereno</b><p>Maybe they just ran out of pink!!! or got a good deal on some red ink.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Operational considerations including running out of ink, changing printers, or including new ones, etc. as well as a deliberate design change are possible causes for the pink/red Keller variation; as is an inking problem. <br /><br />However, viewing both pink and red Kellers does not show a corresponding color difference in the image. So, imo, the inking difficulty theory seems less supported than other possible explanations.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>First, it should be noted that there are actually 108 different players depicted in this set, <br />so the "100 Subjects" adv. on the E90-1 backs approximates the original intent.<br /><br />We have been debating levels of scarcity.......but, there are also cards in this set which <br />appear to be quite available and were issued in a 1st Series (consisting of 50-60 cards);<br />here are two major ones......<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/e90cobb.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/batwagner.jpg"><br /><br />AND, SOMEWHAT TOUGHER......probably issued in a 2nd Series (30-40 cards).<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/e90wagner.jpg"><br /><br />AND, VERY TOUGH.....issued in the last Series (20-30 cards)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/atrispeak.jpg">
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Two more real "toughies" from my current collection.<br /><br />Jerry Upp had a brief pitching career in the Majors with Clev in 1909.<br /><br />Hugh Duffy became Manager of Chicago (AL) in 1910.<br /> <br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/duffyupp.jpg">
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>PAUL K.<br /><br />Do you agree that the PINK Keeler was most likely in the 1st Series....the RED <br />Keeler was then in an intermediate Series; and, the Horiz. Keeler (NY Giants)<br />was in the last Series ?<br /><br />Now, my question is why did the Phila. Caramel Co. print 3 cards of him ?<br /><br />This reminds me of Chase in the T206 set (T206 also has a PINK card of Chase).<br />Keeler played in only 19 games with the Giants in 1910 and then retired, so the<br />bigger mystery to me is why he is included in the last Series ?<br />And, not the PINK vs RED color controversy.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/keeler.jpg"><br />
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Bob Shannon</b><p>Zach, Check the orange out on this one!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1152654670.JPG"> <br><br><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1140094944.JPG">
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Gross</b><p>A few personal opinions (hardly written in stone):<br /><br />Keeler:<br />Red replaced Pink just because it had better contrast.<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1152657593.JPG"> ... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />NYN replaced Red (or was added along with Red) for team change. But, why update a player at the end of his career ???????? Because he was WEE WILLIE KEELER !!!!!!!!!! Hit'em where they ain't. The Baltimore Chop. At the time highest BA in history (tied with Delahanty). He was a popular dude.<br /><br />Trimmed/angle cut:<br />Bob's Walsh above is a beautiful card with an angle cut (adds to charm IMO). The more I look at mine, the more I am convinced it is trimmed (angle on top not as harsh as on bottom). ((which is fine, I bought it as a trimmed card, and was happy get it)) My Mitchell is obviously trimmed. I do not think these were trimmed to fool anyone, or trimmed to get rid of angel. I think they were trimmed (like many other caramels) to fit the standard Tobacco size (as discussed on this board before).<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1152658352.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1152658420.JPG"> <br />.... three Walsh scans, maybe not so tough .... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Something else to keep you up at night:<br />Turkey Mike Donlin played for NYN from 1904-11, but not during the 1907, 1909, or 1910 seasons (career in vaudeville, and "other" activities). His card is with NYN, and is a semi-toughie. QUESTION: Was he printed in the first run or the last run ?????<br />He could arguably be in the first run, since he played with NYN 1904-06 and 1908 (as with Butler, who's career ended in 1908, and Seigle, who's ended in 1906). Conversely argued he was in the last run to recognize his return to the team (like Keeler, a popular player).<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1152659220.JPG"> <br /><br />Once, again, I don't know, but it keeps me honest ......
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Paul Kaufman</b><p>Ted - I believe, as I first stated, that the pink Keeler portrait was changed to red in the final print run because the pink just washed out his facial tones. The contrast was much better with the red background and really highlighted Keeler's face. I also think that it is possible that the Red Portrait and the Keeler Throwing were both in the last print run. The Portrait Red was probably not viewed by the company as an additional Keeler card, but merely an improvement of the first one.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Scott G.<br /><br />You don't have to excuse your "trimmed" Mitchell, or any other E90-1 card....as<br />this is one set of cards where "trimmed" cards are acceptable. If it means you<br />are able to acquire a Mitchell, or a Duffy (look at mine, talk about trimmed), or<br />a Bill Sweeney, or a Walsh, at a reasonable price to complete your set....then<br />you go for it.<br /><br />I would say Mike Donlin was in the 1st Series of cards. His card was also in the<br />1st Series of the T206 set (in fact he is a tough 150-only card in the T206 set).<br />He returned to BB for the 1911 season and after 12 games with the Giants was<br /> traded to Boston (NL) in Aug 1911. By early 1911, all 120 cards in the E90-1<br />set were already issued; so, I am certain that Donlin was not in the last Series.<br />Anyhow, I never found Donlin to be a tough card. Perhaps, other's have ?<br /><br />Interesting side note, you noted Donlin's break in BB to go into acting, when he<br />left BB he eventually moved to Hollywood. Also, he was a pretty good hitter.....<br />his career BA = .333 for 12 years in the Major Lgs. with his best season in 1905<br />hitting safely 216 times in 150 games with a .356 BA playing for the Giants.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Paul K.<br /><br />You really think the RED Keeler was included in the last Series of 20 (or 30) cards ?<br /> Well, I cannot argue with you on this as I cannot disprove this.<br /><br />Years ago, I picked up an album which (along with T206's) had several E90-1 cards<br />glued in it. These E90-1 cards all appeared to be from the 1st Series. I still have a<br />few of these cards and they are Chase, Criger, Hartsell, Jennings and a PINK Keeler.<br />There were others; however, I can't find them. But, I definitely recall that there<br /> were no real "toughies" in this group.<br /><br />I still maintain the E90-1 cards were issued in three Series and each Series included<br />a different Keeler.<br /><br />Here is my toughie Keeler (NY Giants)....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abkeeler.jpg"> <br />
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Paul<br /><br />As usual our email server (princeton u) is down again. So, I hope you get<br />this, and my question is....you referred to uncut sheets of E-cards in the<br />latest Mastro auction....but I could not find them. Do you have lot #s ?<br /><br />Pls. post them here, as it might be a while, our email system will be down.<br /><br />Ted Z
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ted- if you have the latest issue of Old Cardboard magazine they are pictured in their ad.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Barry<br /><br />Thanks much for the info on the uncut sheets.<br /><br />Look for a letter with photos in the mail from us.<br /><br />Best regards, Ted
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Thanks Ted- weren't in today's mail, but will call you when they arrive.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p>sorry to bump this thread but i think its a great thread and its unfinished...<br><br>what is the update on the uncut E sheets? how many per sheet??????<br><br>Paul, Ted, Tony?<br><br>thanks!!
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I agree with King. In the absence of other normally red cards with a pink variation, I would have to conclude that it is intentionally pink, whatever the reason.<br>JimB
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I still think that the E90 set was printed on 30-card sheets.<br><br>My guess is that there were 3 series, as follows......<br><br>1908.....60 cards<br><br>1909.....30 cards<br><br>1910.....30 cards (the tough series)<br><br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>Ted,<br> Your hypothesis is a good starting point, but it fails to account for the vast disparity in difficulty among the cards. For instance, in your hypothetical "last series", the toughest card (presumably Mitchell) would be many multiples more difficult than the 30th toughest card (Overall?, Fromme?). The distribution of E90-1 must be far more complicated than this. I suspect that there were at least 5 separate printings spanning late 1908/early 1909 through at least mid 1910. I have been giving this a good deal of thought lately, and I hope to propose my own theory at some point.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Hi Ed ,<br>I'm not so confident that M Mitchell was the toughest card from this last printing.<br>Wasn't Duffy, Stahl, Sweeney (Boston), Graham, Speaker & Walsh in this last group <br>as well? <br><br>Tony A.<br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>Tony,<br> Those six, and at least one or two others are candidates for the toughest card in the set award. I was just trying to point out that there is a huge gulf between the toughest card (whoever it may be) and the 30th toughest. Stay tuned.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>10-4 Ed. I'm just thrilled to see that there's finally some discussion about this great set.<br><br>Tony A.<br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Ted, the 30 card printing seems plausible. Ed, I agree that it isn't as simple as 30 - 30 - 30 - 30. There is no way that Young is as difficult to obtain as Mitchell.<br><br>So I can see that as things progressed, the plate of 30 was altered. Some cards deleted, some added. Still, it seems that this would have been done several cards at a time, not an altering for just one card.<br><br>It is one interesting set of cards... kinda like wading into quicksand...
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>ED<br><br>Having completed a 120 card set when it was more affordable (1980's - early '90s), I used to think (like you) that<br>this set was printed in series of 20 cards. It made sense, since the backs of these cards stated...."100 Subjects".<br> And, then they added a final 20-card series in 1910 to increase the set to 120 cards. However, I have discarded<br> that thinking when the E93 sheet of 30-cards surfaced. Most of all the Caramel cards were printed at the same <br>facility in PA.<br><br>Guys......<br><br>My recollection of the "toughies" is that most of them are Subjects representing either Boston teams, Cinci & Clev:<br><br>Boston (AL or NL)......<br><br>Buster Brown.....horiz.<br>Graham<br>Hall.....horiz. <br>Seigle.....horiz.<br>Shea<br>Speaker<br>Stahl< br>Sweeney<br><br><br>Cinci.......<br><br>Karger<b r>Lobert<br>McLean<br>Mike Mitchell<br><br><br>Cleveland......<br><br>Bemis<b r>Joss (pitching).....horiz.<br>Upp<br>CYoung<br><br><br> Additional "toughies"......<br><br>Clarke (Pittsburg)<br>Duffy<br>Keeler (NY Nat'l).....horiz.<br>Walsh<br><br><br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Ted Z ,<br>I would add these to the list:<br><br>Boston -<br>Karger (Amer)<br>Richie (Natl)<br><br>Cin -<br>Bescher (Natl)<br><br>Toughies -<br>Dougherty (Amer)<br>Keeler Red Port (Amer)<br><br>Tony A.<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I can't believe I left out Karger; who, covers both tough teams....as he was traded from Cinci to Boston in June 1909.<br>Karger was one of the last cards I needed for my set.<br><br>Lew Richie is a definite tough Boston guy.<br><br>Also, I agree with you on Bescher....another Cinci candidate.<br><br>I haven't had a problem finding Keeler (red portrait); but, I've heard that other collectors consider this one tough.<br><br>So, if my theory is correct regarding 30-card sheets, then we have to come up with another 6 "tough" candidates.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Ted Z ,<br>Below is a list of some other toughies from the set IMO. Lets pick those toughest 6 from this group you mention above.<br><br>O'Connor<br>Leever<br>Wagner throwing **NASTY TOUGH** Dont know how we missed this one in the 1st list.<br>Leach batting<br>Gibson back view<br>*interestingly enough, all above are Pitts Nat'l players<br><br>Stone left hand showing<br>Bliss<br>Hartzell batting<br>Donlin<br>Oakes<br>Willis<br>Wiltse<br> Overall<br>Tenney<br>Howell ball in glove<br><br>Tony A.<br><br><br><br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Based on my (anecdotal) experience collecting the E90-1 set and additional cards from this set, here is my take.......<br><br>DONLIN....Many say he this card is tough. However, he could not have been in the last (tough) series issued in 1910.<br>Turkey Mike suspended his BB career at the end of 1908 and returned to BB in 1911.<br><br>WAGNER....I have not found his Throwing pose as tough as the "usual suspects" in the last series. I would guess that<br> this Wagner card was issued in the 1909 series of 30 cards (semi-tough).<br><br>Here are my candidates from your list.....<br><br>Bliss<br>Gibson (back view)<br>Hartzell (batting)<br>Overall<br>Tenney<br><br><br>And, one you didn't mention....Demmitt<br><br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Ted ,<br>Here's my choice of 6 from the group I'll add. I didn't include Demmitt because in my opinion he is only semi tough, and I have to disagree with you "Big Time" on the Wagner (Throwing) as only being semi tough. It's definitely "Nasty Tough"!!!!<br><br>Bliss<br>Wagner Throwing<br>Tenney<br>Willis<br>Hartzell batting<br>Overall<br><br>Tony A.<br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>No argument from me on Wagner. I guess I have been quite lucky in finding this card over the years.<br> It was one of the 1st cards that I acquired for my 2nd set.<br><br>And definitely.....Willis.....as being on the last sheet of cards issued in 1910. I'd forgotten that Willis<br> is identified as a St. Louis (NL) player. He was sold to St. Louis in Jan 1910. I find it interesting that<br> the price guides do not reflect the scarcity of this Willis card.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>ChiSoxFan</b><p>has the E90-1's rarity as follows:<br><br><b>Hard to Find</b>:<br>Clement, r.f. Brooklyn Nat'l<br>Demmitt, r.f. St. Louis Amer.<br>Donovan, p, Detroit Amer.<br>Dooin, c. Phila. Nat'l<br>Lajoie, 2b Cleveland Amer.<br>Ritchie, p. Boston Nat.<br>Sheckard, l.f. Chicago Nat.<br>Tenney, 1b, New York Nat'l<br><br><br><b>Very Hard to Find</b>:<br>Bransfield, 1b, Phila. Nat'l (Pink)<br>M. Brown, p, Chicago Nat'l<br>Fromme, p. Cincinnati Nat<br>Howell, p. St. Louis Amer. (Pitching)<br>Keeler, r.f. NY Amer. (Red Background)<br>Schlitzer, p. Boston Amer.<br>Wagner, s.s. Pittsburgh Nat'l (Batting)<br>Wiltse, p. New York Nat.<br><br><br><b>Rare</b>:<br>Gibson, Pittsburgh Nat'l (Back view)<br>Lobert, p. Cincinnati Nat'l<br>McLean, c. Cincinnati Nat'l<br>Seigle, r.f. Cincinnati Nat'l<br><br><br><b>Very Rare</b>:<br>Bemis, c. Cleveland Amer.<br>Bescher, c.f. Cincinnati Nat'l<br>Dougherty, l.f. Chicago Amer.<br>Joss, p. Cleveland Amer. (Pitching)<br>Karger, p. Boston Amer.<br>Keeler, r.f. New York Nat'l (Pitching)<br>Overall, p. Chicago Nat.<br>Shean, 2b Boston Nat'l<br>Wagner, s.s. Pittsburgh Nat'l (Fielding)<br>Young, p. Cleveland Amer.<br><br><br><b>Extremely Rare</b>:<br>Clarke, l.f. Pitts. Nat'l<br>Duffy, Man'gr Chicago Amer.<br>Graham, c. Boston Nat'l<br>Mitchell, r.f. Cincinnati (The hardest card to find.)<br>Speaker, c.f. Boston Amer.<br>Stahl, 1b, Boston Amer.<br>Sweeney, s.s. Boston Nat'l<br>Walsh, p. Chicago Amer.<br><br><br>Here is the link for Pete's site (the E90-1 page): <a href="http://www.caramel-cards.com/e901.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.caramel-cards.com/e901.html</a><br><br><br>ChiSoxFan<br><br>Looking for T206 in Poor to Good condition.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>I don't think that Pete has updated that list in quite some time. Though it is a useful classification, several cards on the list (most notably Donovan, Dooin, Lajoie, Fromme, and Overall) are overrated in terms of difficulty. <br><br>Ted and Tony,<br>As I said earlier, I think it's a mistake to think of a "last series" of 30 cards in terms of equal difficulty. To account for the vast disparity in scarcity, there must have been several distinct printings, perhaps composed of 2 or 3 30 card sheets, with various insertions and deletions along the way. The true "last series" probably consists of no more than 10-15 subjects.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>I agree with you on the above "rarity" list. The same cards (e.g. Clarke, Duffy, Graham, Mitcell-Cinci,<br> Speaker, Sweeney, Walsh, Willis, CYoung, etc.) that are rare now were just as rare in the 1980's.<br><br>The most significant difference in an E90-1 card, of course, is the Joe Jackson. A very easy card to<br> find in the 1980's at a quite an affordable price......is now "out of sight".<br><br>The Joe Jax was issued in the very 1st series in 1908 and should be very available card.<br><br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>I don't think it was 10 cards. But, 15, 20, or 30 all sound good to me.<br><br>Perhaps, we will get some more inputs on this subject. There are a quite a few E90-1 collectors on this forum.<br><br>TED Z<br><br><br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>Ted,<br> Interesting theory on the "first series" issue for the Jackson. I think most have assumed that his playing record would indicate a later release date. I think your assumption may have some merit. But I disagree with your estimate of his scarcity. He is certainly not in the class of Mitchell, Walsh, Speaker, etc., but he is not as common as the most common subjects in the set. <br><br> I stand by my estimate of 10-15 most difficult cards. These would not have comprised a "series" as we now think about it, but merely late substitutions in the final print run. <br><br> One final point for now-though I may be the only one to believe it, my observation indicates that the red portrait of Keeler is tougher than the much ballyhooed throwing version. Thanks for your insights on this great set. Keep 'em coming.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>My theory regarding Joe Jax being in the 1908 (1st) series of the E90 set is based on the fact that Connie Mack<br> and Daniel Lafean [founder of the American Caramel Co. (ACC)] were very close friends. And, as you know ACC<br>was based in Philadelphia. So, I don't think it is just a mere coincidence that all the A's were issued in the 1908<br> Series....this was by design. The A's are listed here......<br><br>HR Baker<br>Jack Barry<br>Chief Bender<br>Eddie Collins<br>Harry Davis<br>Jimmy Dygert<br>Heinie Heitmuller<br>Joe Jackson<br>Harry Krause<br>Stuffy McInnis<br>Eddie Plank<br>Ira Thomas<br><br>Check out my list.....I do not think you will find an A's player in the tougher series ?<br> <br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p>I am also working on a theory for this set...hope to hear others ideas...<br><br><br>R Thomas is a Boston player...<br><br>only 28 have been graded sgc<br><br>and 11 PSA...<br><br>would he be grouped in with the other boston toughies...
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>From my experience collecting the E90-1 cards, I've never found Roy Thomas to be a tough card to find.<br>Maybe others have a differing opinion.<br><br>The pop report numbers on Thomas can be misleading, in that his lack of popularity could be a factor for <br>the low numbers.<br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>If I were to split the E90-1 set into 4 different categories of difficulty, with # 1 being the toughest and #4 being the easiest I would put Roy Thomas into group #3.<br>Not to terribly tough IMO. I agree with Ted Z on this one.<br><br>Tony A.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I looked at my old records dating back to the mid 1980's when I acquired my first E90-1 card....Mitchell (Cinci).<br>Here is the ranking of rarity according to my experience collecting these cards, as I noted them in my records.<br><br>1st Most difficult group......<br><br>Clarke (Pitt)<br>Duffy<br>Graham (Bost-NL)<br>Karger<br>Mitchell (Cinci)<br>Speaker<br>Stahl<br>Sweeney (Bost-NL)<br>Walsh<br>CYoung (Clev)<br><br>2nd most difficult group......<br><br>Bemis<br>Demmitt<br>Joss (pitching)......horiz.<br>Keeler (NY-NL)......horiz.<br>Lobert<br>McLean<br>Richie<br>S hean<br>Upp<br>Willis<br><br>3rd most difficult group......<br><br><br>Bescher<br>Bransfield (pink)<br>B. Brown..............horiz.<br>Hartzell (bat)<br>Gibson (back view)<br>Hall.....................horiz.<br>Keeler (red)<br>Overall<br>Seigle..................horiz. <br>Tenney<br><br>Finally, Wagner (throwing) is a tough card; however, I think he was issued in the 1909 series (and, not the last<br> series).<br><br>This list of 30 cards is based on my anecdotal experience. And, these cards were all most likely included on the<br> last sheet, which was issued in the Spring of 1910.<br><br> Obviously, this list is subject to debate....? ?<br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p>so some Boston players were included in the first or second series (they werent all released in the last series)?<br><br>Boston's teams were very poor in 1907-8 so its possible they just didnt make cards of the worst teams... had to make cuts somewhere right?<br><br>maybe the A's owner didnt like the Pittsburgh owner and asked the card company to exclude them for the first few series....<br><br><br>ps....did Lionel Carter have this entire set at one point and have the flips all customized?
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p><img src="http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj227/fandango231/richiesgc.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br>undergraded i think!
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Michael Steele</b><p>Great job guys. Good reading. Ted, I think your pretty close on your 3 levels of difficulty categories. <br><br>I collect the Red Sox and Stahl, Speaker deserve to be in the most difficult category. Karger(IMO)is borderline on the most difficult to middle difficult level and I found the Hall to be a little easier and maybe should not be respected in the levels of difficulty categories but that's just my opinion. <br><br>It sure would be nice if more concrete evidence turned up from the American Caramel Co. but that's wishful thinking from a set produced about 100 years back. Thanks for the information on this great set.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>I would include McLean and Upp in the first tranche of difficulty.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>MICHAEL S<br><br>You are absolutely correct regarding the highest level of scarcity of Speaker and Stahl....<br>and, I'll add to this scarcity level these 4......<br><br>Duffy<br>Graham<br>Sweeney (Boston)<br>Walsh<br><br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>RICHARD M<br><br>I agree, McLean and Upp belong in the top category, so I will modify the list to include these two<br> in the category of the most difficult 12 cards in the E90 set.<br><br><br>1st Most difficult group......<br><br>Clarke (Pitt)<br>Duffy<br>Graham (Bost-NL)<br>Karger<br>McLean<br>Mitchell (Cinci)<br>Speaker<br>Stahl<br>Sweeney (Bost-NL)<br>Upp<br>Walsh<br>CYoung (Clev)<br><br>2nd most difficult group......<br><br>Bemis<br>Bescher<br>Demmitt<br> Joss (pitching)......horiz.<br>Keeler (NY-NL)......horiz.<br>Lobert<br>Richie<br>Shean<br>Te nney<br>Willis<br><br>3rd most difficult group......<br><br>Bransfield (pink)<br>B. Brown..............horiz.<br>Hartzell (bat)<br>Gibson (back view)<br>Hall.....................horiz.<br>Keeler (red)<br>Overall<br>Seigle..................horiz. <br><br><br>Finally, Wagner (throwing) is a tough card; however, I think he was issued in the 1909 series (and<br> not in the last series).<br><br>This list of 30 cards is based on my anecdotal experience. And, these cards were all most likely in-<br>cluded on the last sheet, which was issued in the Spring of 1910.<br><br> Obviously, this list is subject to debate....?<br><br>If your's differs, tell us about it ? ?<br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p>why do you think Wagner throwing was not released in the last series....its low low pop report (lowest by far of any HOF) would suggest its from the last....<br><br>maybe i missed your explanation but can i have it again....im sure people would love to read what you say!<br><br>also nobody answered if Lionel Carter had the entire set at one point and had them all personalized...
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>A low pop card could come from a first series just as well as any other...<br><br>I understand how card changes could suggest which card of a player came first, and which one second. I think it is a flawed assumption to think that any low pop card had to come from the last printed.
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I absolutely agree with Frank W. You cannot always rely on pop reports to be representative<br> of a particular card's availability, or scarcity.<br><br>A pop report that shows certain cards to be more available than others could be misleading,<br> since we do not know how many times that card was re-graded.<br>Conversely, cards like this Wagner are highly desirable and collectors will have a tendency to <br>keep them; therefore, reflecting less activity on the pop report.<br><br><br><img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/e90wagner.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><br><br>Check-out the pop report on this 1st series E90-1 Wagner ?<br>I will bet there is more activity indicated on this one; as, I have always found this pose to be<br> much more available.<br><br><br><img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/batwagner.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><br>Set collectors' wantlists, thru-out the years, have been the true reflectors of the availability<br> and scarcity of certain BB cards. With respect to the E90-1 set....I am currently working on<br> completing a 2nd set. And, in the process (as on my 1st set of 120 cards) I am constantly<br> upgrading cards. So, I can tell you that I've seen many, many E90-1 cards. Furthermore, as<br> a dealer, I've seen many E90-1 wantlists; and therefore, I've developed a pretty darn good<br> feel for which cards are the real "toughies" in this set. <br><br><br><br>TED Z<br><br><br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p>Wagner Throwing is the rarest garded card in the set, with only 18 graded versions...<br><br><br><br>i understand crossovers and crackouts will skew a pop report, but it will skew it HIGHER, so a listed pop report is the MAX number of cards, meaning there is proably less than the stated amount...<br><br><br><br>how do you explain there onyl being 18 graded versions of this HOF when 1st and second series HOF are very plentiful...<br><br><br><br>we know it had to come from at least the second series or third because the wagner batting was in the first or second series...<br><br><br><br>some HOF have 40 and 50 graded versions so there is no way to account for so few Wagner throwing (18) unless it was in the last series....<br><br>there are no cards thought to be in the last series with more than 40 total graded copies, most have 20 to 30 total PSA AND SGC versions..<br><br><br>still waiting to here why POP reports are not indicative of scarcity...<br><br><br><br>i think POP reports are most useful ESPECIALLY with the E90-1...
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Scott...<br><br>It will take more than just hearing, it will require some believing and understanding, too.<br><br><br>Pop reports show how many times a particular card has been graded, assuming they count correctly (I think they can do that) and that they correctly identify the card (they do that correctly most of the time, not all of the time). Notwithstanding what's been posted on the site to the contrary, pop reports don't show how many of a particular card are out there.<br><br>Rare cards are slightly more likely to be graded than common cards. HOFers are slightly more likely to be graded than non-HOFers, Better condition cards are more likely to be graded than worn cards. And all of that applies to folks who get cards graded in the first place. There are lots of folks who don't get cards graded, some folks who get cards graded only to sell.<br><br>All of the Wagner T206s aren't graded. I know that is true, I know of T206 Wagners that aren't graded. Some T206 Wagners are graded, I know a few collectors who have the card and it is graded/slabbed. Just guessing, maybe half of the Wagner T206s are graded... I cannot imagine that half of the Reulbach with glove T206s are graded. A disproportionate number of Wagners are graded as to other T206s. Same is probably true for green portrait Cobbs, too. <br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Let's see what the pop reports show us on these last series "toughies" ?<br><br>If you don't mind, could you please provide this information on all 30 of<br> these E90-1 cards.<br>I don't have access to PSA information, otherwise I'd look it up myself.<br><br>Clarke (Pitt)<br>Duffy<br>Graham (Bost-NL)<br>Karger<br>McLean<br>Mitchell (Cinci)<br>Speaker<br>Stahl<br>Sweeney (Bost-NL)<br>Upp<br>Walsh<br>CYoung (Clev)<br><br>Bemis<br>Bescher<br>Demmitt<br>Joss (pitching)......horiz.<br>Keeler (NY-NL)......horiz.<br>Lobert<br>Richie<br>Shean<br>Te nney<br>Willis<br><br>Bransfield (pink)<br>B. Brown..............horiz.<br>Hartzell (bat)<br>Gibson (back view)<br>Hall.....................horiz.<br>Keeler (red)<br>Overall<br>Seigle..................horiz. <br><br><br>Thanks for your time and effort.<br><br>TED Z<br><br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Let's also get pop reports for 5 of the easy cards, just for comparison...<br><br>Barry<br>Bliss<br>Hall<br>Sum mers<br>Wiltse<br><br><br>Those 5 should offer a nice comparison...<br><br>And I've thought Fromme and Schlitzer were more difficult to locate than the easy cards... any pop numbers on those 2 guys?
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p>Card Combined SGC PSA pop reports<br>------------------------------------------------<br>Shean 17<br>Wagner Throwing 18<br>Bescher 20<br>Gibson BV 21<br>Young Clev 23<br>Hartzell Batting 23<br>Lobert 24<br>Siegle 25<br>McClean 26<br>Bemis 27<br>Stahl 29<br>Upp 29<br>Richie 30<br>Walsh 33<br>Duffy 33<br>Speaker 34<br>Sweeney Boston 34<br>Demmitt 34<br>Karger 36<br>M Mitchell 37<br>Overall 39<br>Donlin 39<br>Hall 41<br>Willis 41<br>Keeler Red Port 41<br>Brown 45<br>Bransfield No P 45<br>-----------------------------------------------<br><br>compared to:<br>series I cards<br><br>Ty Cobb 176<br>Plank 101<br>H Jennings 102<br>CY Young Boston 100<br>HR Baker 98<br>N Lajoie 96<br>c Bender 81<br>H Chase 78<br>S Crawford 80<br>Honus Wagner Batting 60 <br><br><br>IMO the disparity is too great....the Wagner Throwing came from the last tough series only....<br><br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p>Barry 27<br><br>Bliss 29<br><br>Hall 41<br><br>Summers 67<br><br>Wiltse 39<br><br><br><br><br><br>Those 5 should offer a nice comparison... <br><br><br><br><br><br>Only true "common" among those is Summers<br><br><br><br>Psa only has 6 Graded Barry's and its a VERY attractive, colorful card<br><br>...<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Thank you, Scott, for digging the numbers.<br><br><br>Plank is high in numbers because he's in the Hall, AND because folks wanting cards of each of the HOFers have to opt for an E90-1 instead of a T205, 6, or 7.<br><br>Cobb has high numbers, realistically the most graded of the E90-1 subjects. Not because there are so many Cobb cards, but because he's in the Hall, plus he is Ty Cobb. The pop reports don't reflect card availability...
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p>but you can judge RELATIVE scarcity...<br><br><br><br>there is no way to explain why there are only 18 Wagners when there are almost 100 COBBS and PLanks.....those 3 players are in the same plane of collectability so ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, you would expect the same RANGE of graded examples....<br><br><br><br>these range differences are significant and cant be Ignored and written off to "bad pop reports" or "a lot of crack outs".... the numbers speak for themselves...<br><br>
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p>the pop reports are so good at judging the "scarcity" of E90-1's in particular, that i think it mimmicks Ted Z's List....
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E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>OK, here is my interpretation of these numbers.....all 14 of these are definite re-grades.<br> These cards are "hot commodities" when they are posted on Ebay. Dealers are buying them<br> and resubmitting them.<br>How do I know this....a year ago I sold on Ebay a Karger, McLean, Richie, Speaker and Willis.<br> I was happy with the $$$$ I got for these cards. The same exact cards were back on Ebay<br> a month (or so later). All were in different graded holders (some were cross-company graded).<br><br>You might call this anecdotal....I strongly feel this is typical for most of these cards here.<br>Hence, the higher pop numbers than expected.<br><br> There is no-way that Wagner is more scarce than guys like Duffy, Graham, Mike Mitchell,<br> Speaker, Stahl, Bill Sweeney and Walsh as these numbers indicate ! !<br><br>Young Clev 23<br>Lobert 24<br>McLean 26<br>Bemis 27<br>Stahl 29<br>Upp 29<br>Richie 30<br>Walsh 33<br>Duffy 33<br>Speaker 34<br>Sweeney Boston 34<br>Demmitt 34<br>Karger 36<br>M Mitchell 37<br><br>Incidently, where are......<br> <br>Clarke (Pitt)<br>Graham (Boston)<br>Keeler (NY Nat'l)<br>Willis<br><br>these should be low pops, also ?<br><br>Scott....thanks much for checking this out.<br><br>TED Z<br><br><br><br>
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