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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Bruce Dorskind</b><p><br><br><br>The Final Gavel<br><br><br><br>For the past 15 years phone, internet and live auctions have been the lifeblood of our hobby. Whilst there are no hard statistics available, our best guess is that 85% of all baseball cards valued at $2000 or greater sold during the past five years have been auctioned by one of fifteen (15) different auction houses. There is no need to post that list. And there have certainly been a handful private sales and a number of E Bay transactions.<br><br><br><br>As best as we can tell for a catalog auction the time period between the consignment closing date and the payment time is around 100 days. In some cases it is a much longer period of time, and for a few smaller auctions the period may be as short as 75 days.<br><br><br><br>We are now in an economic crisis of untold proportions. Key note speakers at a recent Wharton Private Equity crisis said there was a one in three chance of a full blown depression (banks collapses and 15%+ unemployment). Cash is king and credit is extremely difficult to obtain (several NYSE companies are paying 15% interest on their bonds). Distrust, uncertainty and panic are ever present across each and every facet of our economy. In plain English people are scared, distrusting and don't know what to do or where to turn.<br><br><br><br>We predict that by late Spring of this year, all consignors will demand at least a 50% upfront payment. Major consignors will ask auction houses to personally guarantee payment. Whilst we know of no auction house that is on the verge of closing, we predict that at least three of the hobbys top fifteen (15) auction houses will close their doors in 2009. And we predict some consignors will not be paid (at least for a very, very long time) for their consignments.<br><br>We wonder how this will affect the overall baseball card market. With tougher terms, more economic uncertainty and a lack of transparency only those auction houses with access to large amounts of ready cash will survive.<br><br>Look for more private transactions at lower levels. We welcome your comments.<br><br><br><br>Thanks for your time<br><br><br><br>Bruce Dorskind<br><br>America's Toughest Want List<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bruce- at what point does a severe recession become a depression? Is there a precise definition of what constitutes a depression?
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Hi Bruce<br>I might agree with your first paragraph. Your 2nd one about payment times might be close though for some small ones I think the time between consignment and payment to consignor is a bit less. I also agree we are in a very bad financial crisis as which most of us have not seen before. I do think people will know where to turn though. I think they will use ingenuity to come out of the financial mess....one by one. I pretty much completely disagree with your paragraph about 50% up front payment for consignments. I just don't think that will happen. I also don't think 3 of the top auction houses will close. Maybe one, maybe none. Personally, I doubt any of them will close. I do agree that some consignors could have to wait to get paid by some auction houses. I know of one auction house that pays within 2 weeks of auction close <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">. I don't think this financial mess will affect the hobby anymore than the fact that there is less discrecionary funds to spend nowadays.....Not a bad thread to get some juices flowing. I prefer to be cautiously optimistic though. take care <br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>at the end of the day, IMO, Ebay is the best result for a seller. # 1 reason, seller can set his own price at a BIN or Best Offer Sale. depending on the card the deal could happen within hours of the listing, if the seller wants a higher amount then he can afford to wait till the right amount comes along. if a major auction can take approx 100+ days to deliver payment from consignment origin, then that card can sit on ebay for 100 days. if the owner of the sgc 40 wagner had a better idea about ebay instead of phillip wiess auctions, he could have listed the card at $1,200,000 or best offer, then would have probably sold the card for $1 Million and made more money on it. the high buyers premiums are biting heavily into the price of the lots, not for the buyers, for the sellers.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>My prediction: A few new "Wanted to buy" posts by The Group on the B/S/T within the next 24 to 36 hours.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Doug</b><p>"At the end of the day, IMO, Ebay is the best result for a seller"<br><br>I would agree. Usually anything I list sells within a day or two unless I'm actually trying to hold out for top dollar and in that case I can afford to wait or just hold on to the item.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Ted Sherman</b><p>A recession is when your neighbor loses his job, a depression is when you lose yours
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Rand - <br><br>Josh Evans & Doug Allen both said (at last years National) that the big buyers in the hobby don't want to fool with eBay. They want a nice catalog that they can read (say, while they're in the bathroom <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">) that has all these rare & high end cards for auction.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Barry,<br><br><br>Yes... there is a generally accepted specific / measurable definition of 'recession' and 'depression'<br><br><br>recession:<br>a decline in GDP for two or more consecutive quarters.<br><br><br>depression:<br>a decline in real GDP that exceeds 10% or one that lasts more than three years.<br>(from <i>The Economist</i><br><br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Another great post Bruce.<br><br>If I was a seller of high end cards today I don't think I would risk sending them to an auction house.<br><br>Just yesterday I got an offer to buy a 19th century rare psa 8 with the offer to make a bid and the last price one sold at was $12,000(I think its a pop 3).<br><br>Would be interesting for the hobby if this happened--more sold directly and perhaps at shows.<br><br>Jim
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Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>Bruce....we are in a different era now so throw out the full blown depression talk. The problem right now is most folks are preaching doom and gloom so how can folks feel any confidence? America was on a roll bigtime but just like at a craps table when a hot hand holds the dice when the 7 finally hits there is a ton of money on the table and lost. My personal opinion is there is just to much competition in all aspects of business so only the strong will survie.<br><br><br>In my area there are 20 Ford dealerships within a 40 mile driving distance. Are you kidding me? It is no wonder the automobile industry is in trouble. There is also 7 pizza shops in my town which is ridiculous. The point i am trying to make is their are to many baseball card auction houses. <br><br>Here is a prime example of how to use common sense and research and take control of a situation and not rely on others during this economic downswing. I recently graded 48 cello pack pulled American Beauties that i found months ago, even though i was successful sending some of my tobacco cards to a major auction house i decided now is not the time to have other folks responsible for selling or paying me anything. I researched the Beauties and found Robert Edwards auction sold 7 PSA 9's for 2,000 and a couple of those cards were the first ever 9's found. <br><br>I listed three PSA 8's on E-bay and the prices are 430.00 330.00 150.00, i also sold two PSA 8's offline 350.00 and 325.00. So on 5 cards by selling the cards myself the total is 1580.00 and i never had to worry about getting paid or dealing with drama. I'm quite sure that if i sent those cards to a major auction house there is no way they would have pulled that. Alot of folks do not even try to buy cards from Mastro's or any of the big boys because they just wait for cards to hit E-bay and most of the time that is where they end up.<br><br>America is the land of the free and if you work hard success is right around the corner but folks have to become smarter in understanding competition in business. A friend of mine called me a month ago and asked me what i thought about building a storage shed unit in my area and i almost lost it, there are 10 facilites in my town already which is to many so i asked him if he did any due diligence to understand the demographics or market he was trying to reach. His reply was no but i have to put money somewhere and storage shed units are a safe bet. My advice to him was buy silver because it is going to go up and at the time it was 10.93 currently it is at 13.03 and will continue to rise. Silver will be at 30.00 a ounce by 2010 book it. <br><br>People need to start thinking outside the box and become more creative in their investing instead of just opening restaurants,car dealerships,coffe shops, buying real estate, and so on. While businesses continue to close down like Circuit City and others it should be a example of what not to do and that their is to much competition to make any serious money. The baseball card auction houses are next and when some of them fold up shop it is to be expected because of the amount of them.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Thanks Joe...and I like Ted's definition, too.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>A recession is when a card you want goes too high for your budget, a depression is when the card you're selling goes lower than you thought. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="sad.gif"><br><br>
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Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>I don't see why any auction house would close its doors due to the economy.<br>They retain a % of the final sale from the buyer and often from the consignor.<br>So even if a card lot sells below their estimated value, they still get a %<br>of sales even though the consignor can lose his shirt.<br>So they still have positive $$$ rolling in.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Phil</b><p>Even though they have money coming in, you have to remember that they have to pay for staff salaries, advertising/marketing their auctions, they have fixed costs (i.e. rent, etc.), and they have to pay for catalogs and or websites.<br><br>With probably overall consignments down in a down economy and overall hammer prices probably a little down (plus some items not even getting opening bids), some auction houses are probably having a hard time breaking even right now.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Well, Jay, according to The Group, prospective consignors will want a big chunk of their money upfront. And, of course, the auction house can't afford to pony up all that dough. So, no upfront money, no consignments, no auction house.<br><br>The only way out of this disaster is to sell your cards <i>now</i>, for <i>cash</i> (although at a steep discount), to you-know-who.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jay,<br><br>They would have expenses associated with putting on the auction though--especially Mastro.<br><br>With all this talk about depression, prices for graded cards do not seem to be dropping--pre-war and post war. I understand T206 psa 8s have delined but that has been going on for over a year. The prices for high grade post war vintage if anything are strengthening in here--at least for the 48-69 sets I am tring to complete.<br><br>Jim
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"Is their a precise definition of what constitutes a depression?"<br><br>Barry,<br>I expected more from you. What is up with "their" when it should be "there"?<br>JimB <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Egad- thanks Jim. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"><br><br>It's called posting too early in the morning and not proofreading. I will fix it pronto.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Obviously there is only one thing that can be done in this deep depression. Everyone give their cards to Bruce and he will dispose of them for you.<br><br>There's a possible upcoming report from the FDA that Pre-War cards (especially those valued at $2,000 and above) were made with arsenic-laced ink. Again, before your cards become illegal, the best thing is to give them to Bruce. He's licensed to dispose of poisonous baseball cards.<br><br>There's also a report of the undead possibly rising to reclaim their rare back T206s and uncatalogued N172s by spring, but the details on this are sketchy at this moment.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p><img src="http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/features/health/theskinny/blog/debbie_downer.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>It looks like Brian Cataquet is getting in on the action...I mean auction! BCB ventures will be opening for business with their inaugural auction in March. What recession/depression?<br><br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Where is Bruce? He made a provocative post, then headed out on vacation.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>"Where is Bruce? He made a provocative post, then headed out on vacation."<br><br>This was a rhetorical question. Right?<br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Basically...Bruce has a habit of not following up his posts, and I think he should. You put out a topic, you stick around to discuss it.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Bottom line continues to be buy cards you like, not that you want to invest in for speculation purposes. If the monetary value of cards disappear, you still have a collection you love.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Watch out below--I don't know if we are all ready for this but Bruce says "his next post will turn the hobby upside down".<br><br>Just in time for the Philadelphia show. Sure this will create a lot of buzz.<br><br>Bruce --are you releasing this bombshell before this weekends show?<br><br>Anxiously,<br><br>Jim
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>Drama? With my cardboard? Can't wait!
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>Here is a quote i found interesting in Bruce's post-In plain English people are scared, distrusting and don't know what to do or where to turn. <br><br>No matter what the economy i find this to be how a majority of people are. It really is just nature at it's best. Try petting a bird sometime. The bombshell he will drop i hope will be fact and not some hearsay rumor that has no merit.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Joe B.</b><p>OT - but who are the several NYSE listed companies paying 15% coupons on their bonds? That's not true at all. The yield you can earn by purchasing a bond at a discount in a secondary market is totally different than the coupon a company pays to issue debt. Only the sketchiest of companies have coupons around 10% (sure they are NYSE listed but that's a pretty low bar) and none pay 15%.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p>Bruce, is your point a few auction houses will close?<br><br>That is no big news, and surely wont affect the hobby...<br><br>There are too many now, and the buyers premiums have gone too high...<br><br>Sure when all was fine and dandy they could get away with a fee close to 20%....Maybe they overexpanded "in the hey days" and a shake out needs to occur....<br><br>In this economy, there will be less money to go around and therefore less stores (auction houses) are needed....<br><br>Bruce spices up a simple thing to make it more dramatic...
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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>They better not start charging for their catalogs. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">
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Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>To me it is pathetic that auction houses charge 20% to the buyer and then either 10 or 20% to the consignor. That means that the auction house makes 40% of what the item is worth. Reminds me a little of the mafia mindset. To grab a digital camera and write a description of a card to then post it online is not that difficult nor is it worth 20%. I recieved a phone call from a auction house dealing with antiques that will only charge 5% if i want to sell any art that i currently own, now that is more like it.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Many auction houses adjust their sellers premium to just 5% or zero %. <br><br>The better the lots the better % you receive.<br><br>Edited to add, as example Leon & Scott offer 0% fees on lots over $500<br>and 5% on lots under $500 for their auctions.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Scot</b><p><br>This is creative destruction at work. The best auction houses will thrive and the worst will die. The capitalist system does not work unless poorly run businesses are allowed to fail--a precept that unfortunately has fallen out of favor in Washington in the last six months or so.
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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>"The capitalist system does not work unless poorly run businesses are allowed to fail"<br><br>very well said. agree 100%
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>You can run a business poorly or manage it perfectly, what does that have to do with overcharging? Believe me if you think major auction houses that charge a 20 to 28% buyer premium along with any type of seller % are going to make it even if run brilliantly then watch and see what happens. Greed is the demise to business so here is two words for you BERNIE MADOFF.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>It looks like the system may very well be shaking out the overcharging of the buyers premium. From a distance, it looks like Mastro raised their overhead and started charging more for their services to cover large overhead costs. They tried to get into other service lines (art) that didn't seem to be their primary area of expertise which undoubtedly cost money to enter. Card buyers and consigners turned away in enough numbers that it caused cash flow problems. The investors said no additions to the line of credit. Now, we just have to see what the next steps are. They will likely adjust or suffer a death of their business.<br><br>It does not look like their business model can support their high overhead costs.<br><br>The system works.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>I'm curious to see where we are a year from now. There are too many auction houses and too little inventory for consignment fees to go up, but the practice of annual increases in buyers premiums is at an end. The squeeze is on auctioneers. <br><br>In a recession, stuff stops selling unless sellers are really motivated, usually for unfortunate reasons. The hobby isn't going to croak, it's just going to slow down a lot as people dash for the sidelines.<br><br>Agree fully with Cat that the system works. In buyers' favor, this time around.<br><br><br>Bill<br><br><br><br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>When the economy was humming along, I thought there were too many auction houses. I assumed a one or two or more would drop out some day. Some times it seemed there was a new auction starting every other three minutes-- and all fighting over a fine amount of quality stuff.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Bruce Dorskind</b><p>We have watched as the Board has commented on this thread<br><br>Here are our observations:<br><br><br>1. The Auction Houses, with a few notable exceptions, are too thinly capitalized. If a major Auction<br>House collapses- as we predicted months ago, the affect will spread across the Hobby. Most of the Auction<br>Houses have less than $1 million in free capital. Most are dependent on funding from one or two people.<br>One should not auction major material without a "deep dive" review of the Auction House's books. With three <br>exceptions we would only consign high-end items if the owners of the Auction House personally guaranteed <br>payment.Transparency and security will becomemajor factors for those auction houses attempting to secure major collections.<br><br><br>2. We believe that the US Economic Crisis is in a very early stage. We do not believe that our politicians and the infusion of<br>a trillion dollars of cash will solve this country's current problems. We are likely to face the most serious crisis in over 120 years.<br>Only luck and a significant external event (war?) will boost the economy during the next five years. We predicted a 7500<br>Stock Market on this Board in March of 2008. We now predict a 6000 stock market by September, 15% unemployment<br>and a number major changes in the US Government.<br><br><br><br>3. On a personal basis we are collectors. Not investors, Not Dealers. Unlike most of America, we don't<br>spend above our means. We seek the same cards for our collection regardless of the state of the Economy.<br>Whilst we consistently attempt to secure buying opportunities, we turn down 95%<br>of what we are offered because it does not meet our condition standards and/or it is not what<br>we collect. For example, we have no interest mid-grade rare T 206 backs at any price.<br>We will look for opportunities- but only for the items on America's Toughest Want List <br><br><br>Bruce Dorskind<br>America's Toughest Want List<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><b r><br><br><br><br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>I think that auction houses need to update their payment methods. Most do not accept PayPal or credit cards. With ebay the auction closes, I pay with PayPal 2 minutes after the auction closes, the item is mailed the next day and I have it in my hands within a couple of days. I know up front what the shipping charges will be. <br><br>When I win an auction lot I generally wait 2 or 3 or 4 days for an email with the total charges. Then I mail a check. Then I wait for the check to clear. Then I wait for the company to ship the item. Generally the shipping charges are too high. I recently bought a $19 photo and the auction house shipped it Fed EX and charged me another $19. They could have put it in the mail for two bucks. Why ship by Fed Ex when I have already waited two weeks for this item?<br><br>In my opinion the auction houses should do the following:<br><br>1. List shipping charges up front or offer free shipping as a part of the buyers premium.<br><br>2. Have enough staff on hand to send out the invoices within 24 hours.<br><br>3. Accept PayPal and credit cards.<br><br><br><br>Rick
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Rick- I think a good part of the reason that auction houses don't accept credit cards is that almost all have an "all sales are final" policy. With a credit card payment, any buyer can receive an item, decide he doesn't like it, and have the credit card company stand behind his right to return it. <br><br>Unfortunately, auctions cannot be conducted on an approval basis. Most consignors submit their material months in advance of the auction close, and don't want to find out that they are getting their stuff back after all that time.<br><br>
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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>3. On a personal basis we are collectors. Not investors, Not Dealers. Unlike most of America, we don't <br>spend above our means. We seek the same cards for our collection regardless of the state of the Economy. <br>Whilst we consistently attempt to secure buying opportunities, we turn down 95% <br>of what we are offered because it does not meet our condition standards and/or it is not what <br>we collect. For example, we have no interest mid-grade rare T 206 backs at any price. <br>We will look for opportunities- but only for the items on America's Toughest Want List <br><br><br>***your post up to this was insightful and a good read. # 3 ... is an annoying read
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>Bruce....where is this earth shattering news you promised? The predictions you are making in regards to the economy have been predicted by alot of analysists so this is not news to anyone following the current economic situation. Tell us somthing positive or make a prediction about a winner. Believe me buy silver with both hands because it will be at 30.00 by 2010 no matter what happens to the economy.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Actually I think Bruce is right. I think there will be some fairly big news coming out very soon (days) about some happenings in our hobby. It's too early to say exactly what it will entail. I think the hobby will be just fine though. As predominantly a collector I am fine with whatever happens. I love collecting and enjoy my cards.....I think the auction business will do fine too (though I am very biased). The strong and financially sound will survive.....
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Rick - I agree with your post.<br>Shipping is usually too high and due to no acceptance of credit cards<br>it takes weeks from payment to receiving your lots instead of days.<br><br>Case in point. On Monday I was alerted by Email that I won a lot in Heritage.<br>I then viewed their online invoice and they accepted credit cards, Paypal &<br>Echecks as options. I paid via an Echeck. On Tuesday I was alerted that my<br>lot was shipped w/ USPS tracking #, and it should be in my PO Box tomorrow.<br>They are radical in the way they do business in the auction world.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>They are unparalleled in the way they have their systems set up. It's seamless and offers SO many ways to pay. The days of just check payment should be gone. Just the way it is............
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Robert Klevens</b><p>I hope to receive my Mastro consignment check this week from the December 18th auction. <br><br>I won an item in the HA.com auction last year and paid with Paypal, it was great. I run a small online auction and I accept credit cards and Paypal with no problems.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Robert, it's only been about two months. I'm sure once Mastro gets done using your money to pay for their current auction expenses they'll get around to paying you.
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Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>This economic situation is hitting some new card dealers/stores as well<br><br>From the CU Boards<br><br>< I finally spoke with **** just a few minutes ago, they are out of business. I was told they got upside down on their lines of credit and can't recover. I was also told that if you recently sent a check for payment those will be returned, and that he said that he has been on the phone with paypal trying to resolve the chargebacks. I asked if he would be refunding the credit card payments (which is how I paid), and he told me there was also a problem with the bank so that probably would not happen and that I should just file a chargeback with my credit card company.<br><br>And from an article about long-time hobby veteran's Bob Brill's store closing<br><br>< For Brill, cash flow became an insurmountable issue in September when he received a letter from his credit card company saying the $20,000 limit on his card had been cut in half. He already owed the company $9,500 >> <br><br>Rich<br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>Jeff, correct me if i'm wrong. but isnt the definition of a ponzi scheme taking money from new investors and paying off old ones? i know its a bit more detailed than that BUT it has its similarities. i wonder how this will affect the rest of their auctions this year? <br><br>a friend of mine is still owed $900, he WON'T be sending them anymore material.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Many of my clients have seen their lines cut or completely closed and others have had banks renege on financing that was negotiated and nearly in place. It is starting to kill smaller businesses. I've had one client scrap a planned additional location due to financing issues and another just get reamed by the bank on a refinance. <br><br>As far as auctioneers, the reason they do not accept electronic payments are twofold: (1) Just like many ebayers who hate paypal, they don't want to risk a chargeback and (3) simple greed: if they require paper payments, they can keep the cash as a float for however long they like and the consignors have virtually no recourse (as Jeff notes above, it is in effect a free short term line of credit for the auctioneer), and they save the credit card processors' fees. When you are scrapping for every percentage point of BP and commission, that structure is big in your planning...<br><br>Heritage is a pleasure to deal with in terms of payment; I guess at their size they don't worry about the credit card processing fees. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>All auction house business is built on trust. <br><br>Consignors trust that lots they send in will be cared for, represented well in the auction, and, after the auction ends, payment will be timely. <br><br>Buyers trust that lots will be accurately described, and when they send in payment, merchandise will be shipped safely, and in a timely manner. <br><br>If that trust begins to erode, for whatever reason, that particular house faces serious problems. <br><br>The biggest houses can survive a little longer because of a broader customer base, but even they will suffer soon enough. <br><br>For all Bruce's doom & gloom, he's mostly correct on this one. Why would anyone send a consignment to an auction house with a sliding reputation? <br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>NYHighlanderFan</b><p>Now this is what I call a good topic...I'm glad I'm a collector and not really a seller!!
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Here we go! A bit more doom and gloom. ("Only a war can save our asses now.") And then:<br><br>"We will look for opportunities- but only for the items on America's Toughest Want List"<br><br>Come one, come all. Step right up, ladies and gents. I'm sure y'all have "opportunities" to offer.<br><br>Better hurry.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>This is an interesting topic, on point for once, and I'd like not to see it degenerate and get locked.<br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Ditto.<br><br>Please.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>So if Mastro falls off the map who takes up the slack? Is there already too much saturation in the hobby that one less house won't even be noticed?
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>JohnnyH</b><p>This is a very interesting topic. I don't really think the economy can be blamed for any houses going under, bad business and poor customer service sounds like the the real culprit. One thing I think this says is that maybe the hobby is not growing. It only takes 2 people who want a card to make a great sale. If someone has a bad experience and wont deal with a particular house or seller the results can end up catastrophic in the terms of final price. I don't think that the economy has that big of an effect on the average collector, but wonder how age factors in this equation as many bigtime collectors are near retirement or retired and some may have just lost a huge chunk of their nest egg and cards may have to take a backseat. I do think some major collections will be sold due to layoffs and property and business failures but many buyers will be waiting with the cash. It seems like true collectors are being replaced by card daytraders with no real regards to the hobby and it is slowly taking a toll. On a side note, silver may go to 30.00 soon but wont last if it does and it also weighs a ton......
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Brockelman & Luckey Auctions open for business in mid 2008.<br><br>Rumors of the demise of Mastro Auctions peak in early 2009.<br><br>Coincidence?<br><br>I think not.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Scott Mt. Joy</b><p>I already felt there were too many and I dont think 1-3 failing even if they are the biggest will make any difference on the market. I honestly think houses like REA, Sloate, B & L and a few others are in a great position to expand if any do fail. They have done what the others have not and that is I trust them. <br><br>In the long run- good companies prosper, bad companies fail.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"In the long run- good companies prosper, bad companies fail."<br><br>Would that the world were that simple.<br><br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Scott- appreciate the support but right now I am on hiatus, and not sure when or if I will do another.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>Jim Vb you stated.....All auction house business is built on trust. <br><br>Consignors trust that lots they send in will be cared for, represented well in the auction, and, after the auction ends, payment will be timely. <br><br>Dude are you serious? Anyone that goes to high end auctions or are around high end auction houses know that what they are built on is generally DEATH. When folks die or are sometimes near death then the estate has to be settled,some estates contain rare art,baseball cards,furniture,silver,glass,jewelry and it generally goes to auction. Most folks also know that the attorneys are in bed with auctioneers and kick certain estates to different auction houses based on compensation through percentages which is under the table. <br><br>While all auction houses do generally mix in consignments along with estate goods most consignors know that finding a trustworthy auctioneer is impossible. I get phone calls from certain auctioneers requesting goods when they know that my consignment will enhance their estate sale and i just crack up when they say okay up for sale is this wonderful sterling silver tea set that was found packed away in the attic, ahhhhh it was not in the attic folks. The only reason i do not get F'ed with is because once when a local auctioneeer tried to burn down a vase i put in the sale i walked up and grabbed it from the runner and threw it against the back wall before it got to the buyer he was in bed with LMFAO. I'm not proud of the incident but word got around so no one has tried to burn me since and folks no longer go to his auction house and his business has damn near folded up.<br><br>America was built on free enterprise so only the strong will survive so i say let the games begin. If you want your business to be successful then start thinking outside the box and start providing special incentives for folks like here is a idea. If i currently owned a auction house then here is what i would do as a special offer. I would pick out a Hall of Famer that everyone respected and say anyone bidding in this auction that wins a lot gets their name placed on a ticket, the more lots you win the more tickets go into the hat. When the auction is over then i would pull out a ticket and the winner would recieve a free graded rookie card of the hall of famer,not a low grade either and also a signed ball and bat from the Hall of Famer. Treat customers with appreciation and give them bonuses and then check your ROI the following year.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><img src="http://lifestylescribe.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/tv-white-noise.gif" alt="[linked image]">
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I like to offer my bidders a deluxe Domino's Pizza with two free toppings of their choice. For consignors I may even throw in a tasty beverage to go with it.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>"Dude are you serious?"<br><br>Totally. <br><br><br>"...what they are built on is generally DEATH."<br><br>Very few consignors, and almost NONE of this board's readers, are dead. Living consignors often have trust in the auction house they choose. The mere act of packaging up your cards, sending them somewhere and then waiting months for your money, implies trust. <br><br><br>"...i walked up and grabbed it from the runner and threw it against the back wall before it got to the buyer he was in bed with..."<br><br>Great story. Wish I'd been there. I can see how it relates to... Oh wait... It actually has nothing to do with auction houses doing business through catalogs and the internet. Great story, anyway. <br><br><br>"If you want your business to be successful...(followed by line after line of an infantile marketing idea.)"<br><br>I seriously doubt anyone would bid harder and higher on the off chance that they MIGHT win an autographed item. This is the gambler in you talking, not the collector. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br>On a side note, you would be taken more seriously if you were able to communicate inside the norms of the English language concerning grammar, usage, spelling, and punctuation. I'm not talking about the occasional typo. Everyone makes those (even Barry had a "there/their" yesterday.) I'm talking about line after line that is almost indecipherable. <br><br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If Mastro is having issues I don't think B and L Auctions is doing it. I think it could be the packing tape.<br><br>And what the hell is your blinking magic-looking thingy?
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I know Jim...I was mortified. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"><br><br>Marshall does seem to have a bizarre story for almost every occasion. I don't know how one person can pack so much excitement into a day.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>JDRUM</b><p>You've got to get up real early!
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Barry, <br><br>It's OK. It's OK. It's OK. <br><br><br><img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Rob, it's not too late to pick up one of those digital converter boxes.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>"You've got to get up real early!"<br><br><br><br>Jeff, <br><br>I think Barry gets up plenty early. I think it's more likely you have to stay up later. <br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Up at 5:30, breakfast at 5:45. Seven days a week.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>the NOIZ level is not high enough here, that's what Marshall's here for......<br><br>I would venture to say that no more than 5-10% of any given large Mastronet or REA auction is due to DEATH. If even that much. Yeah....there's the occasional player's holdings or a hobby icon selling off after death but the VAST (repeat VAST) majority is dudes like all of us consigning to these auction houses along with dealers consigning. If you've ever been to the National, you will always see Bill Mastro and the minions out chatting up all the dealers trying to get them to put items--specific items--into their auction. It's not like your run of the mill estate sale that you schlep out to on a Saturday morning--those ARE due to DEATH quite frequently. <br><br>Anyway....it'll be interesting to see what shakes out over the next few weeks and months.......
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p> <br><br>Auction houses are built on greed and the ability to talk and sell to whoever is front of them. Whether a consignor or estate rep the auction house has to sell them on why to use their service. I am not lumping in the smaller auction houses where the owners do not use the auction house as it's only way to make a living. <br><br>I do apologize for my english and typing skills lol.
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Rob, thanks for bringing the [white] noise!!<br>-Rhett
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>Well Barry there is not much to say other than the things i say are true and i'm just not the diplomatic politically correct guy. Instead of contacting my attorney or confronting a auctioneer and claim he tried to pool my vase, i would rather stand up walk to the front and grab the vase off the tray from the runner and fire it into the back wall basically saying now you can have the vase you bunch of SOB's. <br>
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Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone?
Posted By: <b>John</b><p>"I like to offer my bidders a deluxe Domino's Pizza with two free toppings of their choice. For consignors I may even throw in a tasty beverage to go with it."<br><br>Can I duplicate toppings Barry??? If so when is the next auction?<br><br>Also I think all of us have won a few lots in the last auction any chance for retroactive goodies..not a whole pie but perhaps cheesy bread or something?<br> <br>
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