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Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p>Does anyone think the bottom left corner/edge of this PSA 3 looks, shall we say, &quot;interesting?&quot;<br><br><a href="http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail2.aspx?lotid=9588" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail2.aspx?lotid=9588</a><br><br>Edited to add: Look at it from the back scan of the card as well.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>A bad corner is probably the least of your worries on that card. Interesting to see that card offered again.<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>My question is - how did this card get a 3? I have many 1's that are nicer. This is at best a 2, and probably should have been a 1.<br><br>Even so, I would love to have this card. <br><br>Rick

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Posted By: <b>doug Bacon</b><p>what will this card go for ?

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>this plank should merge with the doyle thread.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>And the previously rejected Jackson thread....

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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>they're consistent........... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>here is a little bit larger scan <br><br><img src="http://luckeycards.com/plank.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p>Leon, take a look at a big scan like that from the back of the card.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Card is trimmed no doubt it sold raw in a Hunt auction a few years back I was a phone under bidder. I know two folks who saw the card in person and said without a doubt trimmed. It then ended up on ebay from the same guy who bought it as trimmed raw in a PSA 3 holder. In fact the guy made about 14k on the holder dance....<br><br>Still it's a 150 the best of the Planks...

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Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p><p>Thanks for the BIG SCAN Leon.. it really shows off that bottom edge... </p><p>As if that would have prevented me from bidding.. <img height="14" alt="happy.gif" src="/images/happy.gif" width="14"></p><p>Still a beautiful card!!! I love it!</p><br><br>Marty

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Posted By: <b>ebrehm</b><p>Here's a scan of the back of the Plank card.<br><br>How could this card have gotten into a PSA VG 3 holder if it has obviously been trimmed?<br><br><img src="http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/ebrehm1/forum/Plank_back.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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Posted By: <b>Steve F</b><p> Not so sure the complete 30 seconds was used to scrutinize this one. I've got poor vision but could spot that mullet from a mile. <br><br><br> Question now is, Who was the submitter? <br>

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Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>I AGREE WITH RICK!! HOW DID THAT PLANK GET A 3!! WELL THE ANSWER I THINK IS THIS, WHO SENT THE CARD IN. IT'S HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE THAT &quot;THEY&quot; DON'T KNOW WHICH ORDER BELONGS TO WHOM.NOT SLAMMING EITHER, JUST AN OPINION. AND WE ARE IN AMERICA WHERE WE CAN HAVE OPINIONS, AREN'T WE?? I'm not yelling. so i apologize about the caps.

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Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>STRANGE, THEY TOLD ME MY FRANK CHANCE YELLOW WAS TRIMMED,MY 4 COBB'S WERE TRIMMED, THESE CARDS ALONG WITH OVER 500 OTER T-CARDS HAVE BEEN IN MY FAMILY FOR YEARS, PASSED DOWN BY MY GRANDFATHER.I KNOW ONE THING ABOUT THESE BEAUTS, NOT ONE CARD DOCTOR HAS EVER TOUCHED THEM!! BUT BASED ON WHAT I SEE IN THE PLANK SCAN. MAYBE, JUST MAYBE , I SHOULD MAKE AN APPOINTMENT TO SEE A &quot;DOCTOR&quot;. Mr Steve Sir, i know where the caps key is!

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Posted By: <b>Steve F</b><p>Actually the internet is Worldwide. <br><br>Incidentally, the Caps Lock key is to the left of your 'A'. (:

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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>it reads like you are yelling. please locate the &quot;caps lock&quot; key and press softly.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It is America and you can voice your opinion on this board. You can't do it anonymously though, as that is the rule. Anymore posts with opinions and you will need to put your name out here...nothing personal. The rule is the same for everyone....best regards

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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>your workmanship with the Caps button was supurb.

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Posted By: <b>David M</b><p>I'm certainly no expert, but even I can see that's been trimmed on the bottom. That card should be used as an example of how to spot if a card has been trimmed!

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Let me ask a stupid question. What would be the motivation to trim this card? It's a 3...so did they take it from a 1 or 2 to a 3? The corners still don't look too sharp....and if it was done a long time ago I don't think it would like this...If it were done today, why? Just some food for thought....

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>For those who have doubts or are not quite sure, here is a before and after shot:<br><br><img src="http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4213/planktrimcomphc3.jpg" border="0" alt="planktrimcomphc3.jpg"><br><br><br>This is insane. At what point does this become criminal or when should the auction be pulled? Can they find out who graded this card?<br><br>I like and prefer PSA but they need to seriously step up their game and learn more about alterations of the 21st century. <br><br>Because of what they represent, typically the ultra-high profile cards get the benefit of the doubt (or the consideration) if the grade is border-line. This Plank is just embarrassing.<br><br><br>Kevin Saucier<br><br>------------------------------<br><br><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques &amp; detection with detailed examples<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>Embarrassing is right. These (PSA) are the same people who claim they can distinguish between an 8,an 8.5, and a 9 - but they couldn't see that this card was trimmed?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, I'm sure at least the auction description will be amended. Just like the E90-1 Jackson description will be amended. Just like the...(and so on).

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Posted By: <b>Jero</b><p>Kevin,<br><br>Why not show the before and after on the top edge as well?<br><br>Double doh!

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>Playing around here. I'm sure someone here is much better at this than I am but I tried my best with a transparency overlay to show just how much was removed.<br><br><img src="http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1080/plankovervz4.jpg" border="0" alt="plankovervz4.jpg"><br><br><br>Baby steps Jero, I don't want to cause seizures or carpal-pedal spasms. We can go one step further and say the back is yet another issue. It just goes on and on.<br><br><br>Kevin Saucier<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques &amp; detection with detailed examples<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p>How would you guess it was removed? Sharp knife? Razor blade? What exactly is the likely tool?

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Leon -- I have the same question. What was the point of cutting the bottom? Perhaps it was an attempt to cover over a prior trim to get a numerical grade? I guess it worked, even though it isn't fooling anyone at this point.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>....were cut at the top or bottom for reasons other than fraud. My guess is that the &quot;before&quot; picture above was a result of that kind of trimming -- where the edge is not very good; that the card would not be slabbed as such; and that someone went back and tried to straighten out the trim.<br><br>In short, the latest trim was done to get the card into a slab -- going from an &quot;Alt&quot; to a &quot;3&quot;.<br><br><br><br>_ <u></u> _ <u></u> _ <u></u> _ <u></u> _ <u></u> _ <u></u> _ _ <br><br>Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: <b>sporteq</b><p>.. for some odd reason the bottom edge looks like a photoshop trim<br>job. No way a PSA 3!! As we know, nice rarity tho!<br><br>aL

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>I'm with Leon here, why trim the bottom with those corners?<br><br><br>Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>DeanH</b><p>Just for reference. This card sold in Goodwin's Oct 4th 2006 auction for $40,100.40. I believe that is with the BP.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Regarding the question about why somebody would trim this card: The difference between a 2 and 3 is about 10-20k. It is not only high grade cards that get altered. Also, the original looks like a rough, period hand-cut that could not be slabbed.<br>JimB

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>&lt;&lt;the original looks like a rough, period hand-cut that could not be slabbed.&gt;&gt;<br><br>The latest trim moved the card from ungradeable to a 3. <br><br><br><br><br>_ <u></u> _ <u></u> _ <u></u> _ <u></u> _ <u></u> _ <u></u> _ _ <br><br>Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>a significant portion of my crappy collection stands to be upgraded!<br>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Define 'sold.'

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Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p>If you gonna Trim the card, at least TRIM it edge to edge so it doesn't look cock-eyed.. The before and after are BOTH look Diamond CUT now.<br><br>marty

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Posted By: <b>Dean H</b><p>I can't define 'sold'. Maybe I should have said this card was bid up to that amount. But that is the price I have written down in my catalog from that auction. I usually include the BP when I log in the price. Just thought it was interesting information. It was slabbed PSA 3 at that time too.

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Just another day and another Graded card fiasco....except, this day we have 2 of them (T206's - Joe Doyle and Eddie Plank).<br><br>What really bothers me about this Plank situation is......<br>Here is an obviously TRIMMED card that should have been Graded no better than &quot;Authentic&quot;.<br><br>Instead, it is graded at least one Grade higher than it was prior to trimming and grading; and, it's price has now DOUBLED ! !<br><br>These are just some of the &quot;scary&quot; aspects of this Grading game.<br><br>No Thanks, guys.<br><br>TED Z<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p><br>I just heard from Joe Orlando. <br><br>His initial reaction is the card looks funny due to the way it is sitting inside the holder and the way it was scanned. He pointed out that often times the image of a card can be deceiving and that it's just too hard to tell from a scan in most cases. <br><br>He also pointed out that PSA could always review the card again (which I interpret to mean the owner of the card could send it back in for a second look . . . maybe try for a &quot;.5&quot; bump). <br><br>Edited to add: Joe got back to me very quickly, which I appreciate. <br>Edited to add: Lame joke about a .5 bump, since the card was graded prior to the .5 grading system.<br>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, that's the ticket, Joe!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Regarding why a low grade card still might be trimmed:<br><br>In the early days of the hobby, around the 1980's, a popular way to display T206's was placing them in 16 pocket sheets. Unlike top loaders, which make it easy to insert a card, these were side loaders. And in most cases it was really hard squeezing a tobacco card into the space allotted. So what collectors often did was trim a hairline off the top or bottom border.<br><br>I had a good friend (may he rest in peace) who trimmed down his entire T206 set that way so that he could get the cards to fit. Come to think of it, he had a Plank and Magie. Maybe this card was it, you never know.

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>Were his initials D.M. ?<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>but the Authentic designation should be there independent of malicious intent, or otherwise. If the card has been trimmed down for grading purposes, for enclosure in a 16-pocket sheet, etc., it is still altered. And the third party graders should not be making subjective judgments as to the intent of the original alterer when deciding to put an &quot;Authentic&quot; designation as opposed to a numerical grade.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Scott- he was J.C. from Brooklyn. I think it was a fairly common practice at the time. And he was as honest as they come, he just wanted his cards to fit into the sheet.<br><br>Marc- no question the intent is irrelevant. But there were a couple of posts earlier in the thread asking why anyone would trim a low grade card, and I was just giving an example of how it could have been done.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Dawson</b><p>Great comment about those 16-pocket sheets Barry.<br><br>I did that myself with an Addie Joss portrait that was oversized. I could NOT stand the fact that it wouldn't fit in any of the pockets in the sheet, so I trimmed it down with my trusty x-acto knife. It fit, but the one edge (I can't remember now whether it was the top or bottom) sure looked fugly.<br><br>I always felt guilty about it, and never really liked the card afterwards <img src="/images/sad.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="sad.gif"><br><br><br>Steve

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>Didn't mean to imply any impropriety. The D.M. I referred to was another old time collector that unfortunately thought it a good idea as well to snip a bit off to get them to fit into the sheets. <br><br>One must wonder &quot;what were they thinking?&quot;. I don't think you would ever find a stamp collector cutting off perfs to get a stamp to fit into a hingless mount, nor a coin collector filing off just a bit to make them fit into the old coin boards or library of coin albums. <br><br>Scott

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No problem Scott, and I agree completely that cutting down a card to size is a bizarre practice. Back then a T206 common in VG was worth about $4, but that still doesn't justify the act.<br><br>It does however explain why a low grade card could show up today slightly clipped. Nobody was trying to deceive, but just wanted to display their cards.<br><br>I'm pretty sure that when the top loaders were first introduced into the market, they were considered a big improvement over the others, and were widely popular.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Kevin stated it best - criminal! Hey 1 good thing though, if it is slabbed, at least you know it is legit and unaltered.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Here is a D. M. trim job, top edge:<br><br><a href="http://s280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/bowlingshoeguy/?action=view&amp;current=E94Wagner.jpg" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/bowlingshoeguy/E94Wagner.jpg" border="0" alt="E94 Wagner"></a><br><br>Lee

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Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p>Wow, this thing is going to go for over 40k with the b.p.<br>

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Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>What PSA should do is purchase this card and then at the National crack it out in front of whoever wants to watch and re-grade the card with their head grader. If the card was put in a Authentic (trimmed) holder it would speak volumes for the hobby and the integrity of the company. When Ben Hogan started the Ben Hogan Golf Company in 1953 he scrapped the first sets of irons which were valued at 100,000 all of which was out of his own pocket. He spoke to every person involved in regards to the building of the blades and would not tolerate imperfections or alignment issues with the clubhead. The Ben Hogan Company then set a standard in the industry for accountability and their blade dominated the PGA Tour for the the next three decades. Perhaps Mr. Orlando could learn a lesson from the old master that sometimes one step back can get you three steps forward. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0" rel="nofollow">&gt;</a>

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Lee - that's a beautiful card!<br><br><p><br><br><br><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/mwieder" rel="nofollow">My Trade/Sale Page</a></p>

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Marshall, I hear ya brother! I can appreciate what you are suggesting but it isn't going to happen. PSA fought me tooth and nail over $5k. They are not just going to reslab this Authentic and eat the huge difference. Bottom border is hacked in my opinion. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I guess there is a little confusion on the D. M., it stands for an old time collector Don McPhearson.<br><br>Lee

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>Another PSA abomination...righting this example will not instill any confidence in me in any way that PSA is trying to better the hobby...they've done the opposite. Lee...I thought your e94 Wags was violet? Hmmm?<br><br>Pete Ullman<br><br>ps...the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I think righting this would sure do better than not righting it. I would love to eat my words but it ain't gonna happen.

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Posted By: <b>Jamie</b><p>You Guys seem to know alot about plank cards, I have one and need some help. How can you tell if it is real? Also did they have any reprints for the 1909 t206 card? What size should they be? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p><p>Jamie,</p><p>Providence.. were did you get yours? that should tell you if its real or not. There are many reprint sets of the T206 cards. </p><p><br> </p><p>Marty</p>

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Size is meaningless if you know anything at all about T206 cards. They came in many sizes which really messes with the grading idiots. My set was comprised in the 1970s before people started trimming cards and I can tell you that there are at least 20 different sized legit cards in my set. 3rd party grading is a complete joke!

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Remember though, if it is graded, it is legit and unaltered!! PRICELESS!!!!!

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>Yes...I also have heard all of the real Plank cards come from Providence. (insert smiley face here!)<br>

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>That was great Peter, I decided to lay off of that gimme

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Dan,<br><br>Forgetting for a moment the whole grading thing, you say &quot;in the 1970s before people started trimming cards.&quot; Though I agree that hardly anyone from that era would have trimmed a card to improve the appearance of its condition, don't you agree that trimming cards for other non-nefarious reasons (sizing them to fit in an album, box, etc.) wasn't all that uncommon long before big money entered the hobby?<br><br>I know that a number of cards from various issues in Lionel Carter's collection were deemed trimmed, and I think most would agree that he likely didn't trim them and that some of them had been in his collection for many years before the grading frenzy hit.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Yes Rob, cards were cut down for obvious reasons back then but not to deceive and were very easily noticed to be cut down. Not hidden. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>There is no way every card in my T206 set was trimmed down by owners to fit things, they were factory cut many different sizes no question. Having a designated size for T206 cards is a joke. And so is 3rd party grading, a joke.

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>My mistake for even bringing it up. Should have known better. Wasn't questioning any of your cards, Dan, merely the belief that no one trimmed cards -- for whatever reason -- before grading came along.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I agree Rob, you are completely correct. And a great point, cards were cut down back then for other reasons. Just not to deceive so it was usually very obvious. I agree with your statement, Dan.

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Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>Dan....you are right. The gentleman's son whom i bought 250 t-206 cards said the cards were in a cigar box under the bed for 90 years. The cards were never out and no one knew about them but immediate family. They were all sizes including some longer ones but when looped one could easily tell there was no trimming. PSA still deemed 3 cards to be trimmed but i knew better but they were commons so it was not that big of a deal.