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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>I thought this should be a follow up post to Bruce's concerns about who and what the government is investigating because i find it odd that people actually think the baseball card world is legit. I have been buying and selling baseball cards for 20 years and not the nickel and dime type cards. I have also attended several major card shows that bring out PSA,SGC and all major card dealers. The entire hobby is corrupt and the amount of honest people in the high end card game is very slim. Here is a prime example. I recently got into a riff with some of the members on this board and they basically called me out over some clown named Billy who i did not know and acted like i did not pocess alot of T-206 cards and actually questioned if a imposter was posting for me which i found amusing. I will say that Leon is a class act and sent a personal e-mail which let me know he does actually care and has a passion for cards and the people that own them. Of the 1500 T-206 cards that i own i decided to send a collection that i bought which consisted of 250 cards and they had some real strong Southern Leauguers in it. I have always suspected that the card graders such as PSA are totally corrupt and will always give better grades to dealers and also in regards to PSA protect graded cards which are in their set registry. I sent the cards to a auction house and allowed the owner to send them in, we spoke over the phone before they were sent and out of 125 cards my personal grading was off on only 2 cards when they got slabbed. The cards were sent to PSA and the grading was correct. After the auction ended i had to basically get rude in order to recieve my money so i decided to skip sending anymore of my cards to auction because it was a very uncomfrotable scene and i am very old school so without saying anymore trust me my friends somehow someway i am gonna get Paid. I spoke personally to Joe Orlando who is the CEO of PSA and told him about my concerns because i am not a dealer and also spoke of the cards i own and that i would like the same consideration as other high end dealers when submitting cards, we worked out a arrangement but i am no dummy so instead of sending in some T-206's i started with some 1944 Gum Inc American Beauties just in case old Joe and the graders brought their Brett Favre game. If the cards were graded honestly their value is around 7,500. These cards were cello packed pulled and out of 48 cards their was at least 2 10's and about 7-10 9's some of which would have been the first ever found 9's. The cards basically never saw the light of day for 60 years because they were in a chest in the attic on a board which had 12 cello packs attached to it and a dealer who saw my post in the non-sports section offered me 5 figures for the cards and the board . Let me also state for the record that i have submitted to Beckett about 200 cards of which over 175 have been graded BGS 9.5 and some BGS 10 which is not easy to do and up until these cards i have submitted to PSA about 9 cards of which all came back PSA Gem-Mint 10 except for a Pujols rookie and Billy Butler rookie which i knew were 9's. I just got online and saw that the grading for the American Beauties and out of 48 cards only 1 came back a 9 and isn't it odd that the particular card that got a 9 has 15 other 9's on the pop report which is no coincidence, how nice of PSA to throw me a bone. A majority of the cards were graded between 7 and 8 which is almost laughable due to how nice and clean the cards are and the fact that the cards were razor sharp with nothing on the back. There is no doubt in my mind that the cards were snubbed because i am not a dealer and that the cards in the set registry were protected, if a well known dealer had sent in the cards then they would have been graded correctly. Basically PSA just cost me about 5 thousand and Mr. Orlando will not return my phone calls so instead of taking it on the chin i think i'll take the shot and now start throwing some myself. I ask all the members of this board to ask this question- How many times have you cracked out a card from a PSA holder and then re-submitted it and the grade comes back 1 or 2 points lower? How can a 8 come back a 6.5 and a 6 come back a 4.5? How many times have you been at a card show and watched certain people get grades and then look at the card in the holder and just laugh? The answer is obvious the company is bogus and their is shady things going on all the time behind the scenes especially at the major card shows. I hope the government is investigating these fu#$%king goofballs and does something to clean up the hobby because i'm trying to figure out if Joe is friends with Bernie Madoff (-: unlike most card buyers who really don't want to express their opinion due to the retalition i have plenty of cash and alot of super nice cards and i'm not intimidated by any of these suedo auction houses or grading companies. PSA should change from Pro Sports Authenticator to Pro Scam Alliance. Good day Joe and i hope you and the rest of the snots that work for you read this post because your holders are not worth the plastic it cost to make them because of your inconsistent and manipulative grading.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>It would be a better/easier read if you used some paragraphs.<br><br><br>I'll check back later.<br><br><br>Steve
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Steve F</b><p> Marshall, Firstly, some page breaks would've been thoughtful to us old guys with weak peepers. That is one Mt Everest of a paragraph!<br><br> You asked about resubs. and since this is a PSA bash, here is my experience.<br><br> I've cracked a few dozen SGCs, BVGs and GAIs and sent to PSA over the past 5yrs or so (No modern crap, but lower grade prewar). Almost all scored the same and just a small fraction rec'd a slight bump. Of course I carefully selected which I thought should bump.<br><br> I'm not sure IK buy the notion that the graders are bumping exclusively for the big shots. I know if it were myself as the middle-income grader with the loop... If anyone was getting preferential treatment, it would be the little armpit collector receiving the 'edge'.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think Marshall got his point across though a few paragraphs and punctuation would help the reading. I have similar stories of preferential treatment too. If anyone ever gets a chance ask Roger Neufeldt ( a very nice and active dealer) about his grading experiences. They weren't much different than Marshall's. On a similar situation I just submitted a bunch of cards to SGC.....I was very disheartened with some of the grades and, though I very rarely do it, some will be going to PSA for examination (sans holder of course). There is no freaking way that one particular, valuable card, is what they said. No way. I looked at several other SGC examples in 1-2 grades higher and I am positive (as positive as I can be in looking under magnification) that this card deserves a bump up in grade. I just don't think they will bump high value cards up that are in their own holders even when they deserve it, for the most part. I know there are exceptions but that would be my summation.....best regards<br><br>edited to add that since I posted another Steve (hi Steve F) chimed in but my first thought was towards WinPitcher...
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>I can't speak one way or another from personal experience. However, my confidence in the grading system would be increased by any grading company that put a system in place which ensured that the grader was unaware of the identity of the person submitting the cards. My understanding is that neither PSA nor SGC has such a system in place.<br><br>Max
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree with the first two comments- this is really hard to read, and to follow the argument.<br><br>If it is true that certain submitters get higher grades than others, and I've heard that rumor for years without any real proof, then that will be the end of the grading services.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Rich R</b><p>From PSA site concerning identity of the card owner:<br><br>"The receiving step is one of the most crucial steps in the PSA process. This is where all packages are logged in and separated based on their service level. Once the packages have been separated, each package is opened in priority of service and the cards are counted. After verifying the service level and payment, one of the most important steps in the grading process occurs.<br><br>The submissions are now assigned a generic order number, removing the identifying information from the order - thus removing the potential for bias. Finally, all of the pertinent data is entered from the PSA submission form, an email confirmation is sent out to the customer and your cards are off to the next stage."
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>That story really should start out "Once upon a time...." I am sure Memory Lane and Jim Crandall and other PSA HOF'ers would never get special treatment though.....
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Thanks Rich. I hadn't noticed that before on PSA's website. I remember bringing this point up a couple of years ago, and if I recall correctly, no one mentioned that it was there. Perhaps it has been recently added--or maybe it has been there for a number of years.<br><br>Max
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Grading services are only as good as their reputations, which are built through accurate grading and authenticating. If their customers lose faith in that, there is nothing left and it all comes crashing down.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry--exactly which is why PSA would never give favoritism.<br><br><br><br>Leon--you are also correct here. I don't get any favoritism and if you asked Marshall. Loucious. Merkel, Spence I am sure they will tell you the same thing. In fact I had a fairly recent conversation with one who was very upset over his grades he got on a submission.<br><br><br><br>
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I am hardly a whale or one of the "big boys" but I do have a substantial collection, I believe. That said, I can only reiterate what I stated in a different thread, that I was told several years ago by a major auction house that they needed to send my consignment in for grading themselves because they would get higher grades than I could. I believe the guy at the auction house was being honest with me and he knew exactly what he was saying. <br>Anyone who thinks grading is entirely objective still believes in old Saint Nick. That said, I do continue to use grading companies for some of my cards, far from all though. I like the way SGC displays the 1911 Zeenut set (in their holders) I am working on but their grades are all over the map.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>I spoke with someone that told me that they could get guaranteed 8's for me on several cards I have. This was a few years ago and the person is a dealer, a well known reputable dealer. I wont go into the details but that kind of bugged me. I didn't send the cards in for submission (I know you guys probably think I'm stupid for not taking that opportunity). <br><br>In any case I still think it's a sham that PSA will only grade UP and not down. Nobody will be able to convince me that they only made initial mistakes and graded cards lower than they should have been. What a crock of crap.<br><br><br><br>
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bob- is it possible the auction houses say that to improve their chances of getting your consignment? Because if it is true that they can get higher grades, they really should keep that under their hats. That's not the kind of thing that should ever be made public.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Grading is not an objective truth, like math, as much as we'd like to think it is; it is a lot closer to art than science. I find that my personal grading scale is consistent with SGC's approach and I am rarely surprised with the results when I send them my cards. PSA has a different approach, one that baffles me on many counts, so I rarely send them any cards. Regardless, no third party grading service has the capacity to be 100% objective; mere human error associated with the judgments made in asessing a card will dictate some degree of randomness to the result. Cruise Ebay and it is easy to find overgraded and undergraded cards from every slabber. I suspect there is favoritism; I cannot prove it. I also suspect that most collectors have an overly optimistic view of their own cards' qualities. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>An auction house can potentially gety better grades as it can call Joe or Dave and discuss the particular card and ask him to take a second look. There is no way that the graders at PSA know whose card they are grading or that for example that Reza knows for example that this as a Memory Lane card.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br><br>This isn't true either. I had a discussion with Doug Allen about putting 120 T206 psa 8s into the Mastro December auction. I mentioned I was also talking with two other auction houses. I asked him for his selling points on why use Mastro and he never indicated he could get better grades. He said he would list them all individually and his graders could cherry pick my best 8s and send them into PSA for review. I said why not send them all in if its for free and he argued against this.<br><br>Jim
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>If you are a collector, you buy the card and not the holder<br>
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- anybody can ask PSA to take a second look and review cards. Why would someone need an auction house to do this?
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>wow people actually tried to read that train wreck of a post? Does the thread starter hate eyes?
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Am I in some type of time warp? You mean there was no corruption<br>before PSA came into being? <br><br><br>lol<br><br><br>Steve
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>No doubt there was corruption before PSA. I have many, many old articles to prove it. PSA just added to it by changing flip numbers on cards and not disclosing it (ala Memory Lane), grading the holy grail with a number...and other neat stuff like that. For the record I still do think PSA gets it right most of the time and I don't hate the company or Joe.....If I had to pick the hobby with or without them I would still pick it WITH them. regards
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br><br>Exactly. Only reason is they have the stroke to more aggressively question the grade on the particular card. Also they unquestionably get a better rate.<br><br>Jim
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>BREAKING NEWS: CORRUPTION AT PSA!!!!!!!++++++++<br><br>there may be some favortism at the grading companies, but OP i think ur just mad because PSA don't agree with your grading....and seriously we're talking about billy butler and albert pujols GEM MINT 10? i think i just saw them on the mlb network, i prolly should collect them???<br><br>obviously it's easier to predict grades on VG to EX cards (unless you have MINT sl'ers) than on 8-10s where it becomes more subjective. <br><br>i just sent in some 1990 OPC premier hockey...prepare for my state of the union in 2-3 weeks! stay tune...<br><br>edited for another news flash: any auction house that you have to "get rude" in order to get your consignment money...probably has no pull at PSA...(lol)
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Corruption... can we first define corruption?<br><br>Is grading a trimmed card (a very valuable one), right out the starting gate something that can be considered corruption?<br><br>Is grading a collection of T206s with obvious trimmed cards corrupt?<br><br>One definition of corrupt includes the following:<br><br>- guilty of dishonest practices, as bribery; <br>- lacking integrity; <br> <br><br>I'm not sure if grading a valuable card, that was known to be trimmed, a corrupt act based on "guilty of dishonest practices" because if it's the first time you've graded anything, then it wasn't a "practice" to begin with. Now, if we look at "lacking integrity".... that would be something that was defined as the company kept up the practice of grading trimmed cards...<br><br>oh, please, turn this into a PSA sucks thread... oh, I'm sorry, I don't want to break my new years resolution of participating in PSA SUCKS threads so early in the year... but if someone else does I wont mind reading it... I'll try to refrain from participating though...
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Fred,<br><br>So because a dealer guarantees you will get 8s your read through on this is PSA is corrupt? Come on, you're smarter than that.<br><br>And as far as grading up but not grading down, they have already determined that the card meets the characteristics of an 8(8.00 to 8.99). You want them to revisit what they have already decided on or provide further detail on their original grade.<br><br>Jim
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>It really sucks when the grading company disagrees with you. <br><br>-Al
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>macboube</b><p>Is in the hands of PSA. They know and have verified with S. Hart that our cellos are real, they know they have been stored in a time capsule for 53 years. They know we are not dealers, but just a couple of fortunate souls who happened upon these cards. They know that money is not the over riding factor in our quest for high grades, etc. They know we seek to have a couple of the most incredible sets on the Planet. Our multitude of submissions of these Mint beauties have revealed the following:<br><br>1. Grading on the earlier submissions were by far the weakest.<br>2. The more we submitted, the seemingly higher the grades, however, in fairness to PSA, and by osmosis, we learned what to look for B4 submitting.<br>3. The whole system of review submissions in our minds is the most questionable of all their processes. First of all, a stringent guideline of standards should be adhered to always, making only one time original submissions necessary. There should be no need and no such thing as reviews. <br>4. We feel it is doubtful they resent newcomers, non-dealers, and favor the high end Set Registry holders. We are on the cusp of rattling many of those cages, and PSA knows it. They have expressed they know many of their serious high end Set Registry holders worlds were be crushed very soon, and that is the way things are. Particularly when the top set that every collector thought would never be toppled in any of our lifetimes, is about to be. <br><br>One things for certain, a corrupt industry or not, it sure is a lot of fun.<br><br>macboube
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>this sounds like "Risk"...the game of world domination.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Steve F</b><p> "A game of World domination played by a couple of idiots that can barely run their own lives."<br><br><img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q252/whgnailer/ukraine.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Is owning a grading company and selling cards corruption?<br><br>Steve
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>I still have no idea what the OP was ranting about.<br><br>Well, I have some idea.<br><br>Steve
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>NEWMAN (after Jerry accuses him of trying to cheat at Risk): I'm a little insulted.<br><br>JERRY: You're not a little anything.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>I got through the entire paragraph. I think "suedo" was a Phil Collins song.<br><br>I've harbored similar thoughts for years, but I don't collect high-grade, so such shenanigans don't effect me. Soft corners help me sleep at night. Just like bourbon.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>i kind if agree with the fellow, but i can't prove it. so i'll just leave it alone
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am not sure who your grading comment was directed at but (no worries, it's all in fun debate)....I do think SGC is one of the most consistent graders, along with BVG, in the business. I consider some folks at both companies as friends and both do a good job. All that being said how would you feel about the grade of this D303?<br>(tiny spot of paper loss on back and no creases or wrinkles)<br><br><br><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1230929553.JPG" alt="[linked image]">
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I will tell you it wasn't Mastro that told me that they could get better grades for their cards than I could. <br><br><br><br>Dan I agree 100% but when it comes time to sell them, especially a complete set, you would be surprised (or maybe not) how much more money you can get for your cards when they, or at least the "big cards" in the set are graded.<br><br>tbob <br>
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Leon- You are not alone old buddy. I have a couple of gorgeous E94s with no wrinkles or creases and a very, very tiny paper loss on the back, like yours, and they ended up as 10s. It's just hard to figure out. I know SGC hates paper loss and enamel loss on the front borders of cards but giving them 10s is something I can't stomach when I see other 10s that are mangled.<br>tbob
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I'm sure every dealer has told potential customers they can get better grades than they could--to attach any meaning to the comment is silly.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Scott Mt. Joy</b><p>Just from my own experience of sending in a number of bulk subs to both PSA and SGC.<br><br>IMO- SGC is much more consistent overall and I have crossed over 300 PSA cards in my collection this year for this reason (and much better looking slabs). The one down side is they hammer paper loss (how Leons card is not a 40 or 50 is beyond me, I have a couple that fall into the same boat, can drive you crazy). I feel like I get more of a personal touch with their service and have spoken to Michael many times and always seems like they care.<br><br>PSA for me has a lot more to do with the grader you get for that sub, sometimes you do great and other times I have been in disbelief over my grades. I had a sub where I felt nearly all of 100 cards were way off, I sent the 5 biggest ones back in (cracked out) and sure enough they got a 1-2 grade bump as I suspected. This is why PSA has lost a lot of my business. I also hate the qualifiers, they need to do away with them. Calling PSA is a nightmare and I just feel like they are a company with weak customer support (unless you are a prefered customer, auction house, whale, etc). The upside to PSA is if your selling cards in a contested registry you can make serious money on them (sometimes stupid money).<br><br>
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Leon:<br><br><br><br>My last post was directed at the original poster, who's post seems, to me, to contain at least some degree of sour grapes.<br><br>That said, without having your card in hand, I'd give it a low grade but not a 10. It is miscut, with poor registration and a chipped lower left corner. There is paper loss on the back. I'm one of those people that thinks that paper loss - even on the back - even on a blank-backed card - should be dealt with harshly. Paper loss is paper loss, IMO. If I bought a card that was a 50 and it had paper loss on the back, I would be very unhappy. <br><br>That said, this is also one of those examples where the card is much, much nicer than the technical grade, and definitely one I'd be proud to have in my collection.<br><br>If the card was mine, I'd bring it with me to the National and ask why it as a 10. Perhaps they'd point out something I didn't see, and perhaps they'd say they made a mistake and it should be a 30, which is what it looks like to me. <br><br>Unlike a lot of people here, I'm willing to accept a certain degree of variance from a grading company. There are human beings grading the cards. They have bad days, they get headaches, they write down a wrong number, they misjudge things, they miss something someone else might have seen, they see something someone else might have missed, they misread a number, they judge something one way on Monday and ever-so-slightly differently on Tuesday. All in all, though, they do a fantastic job with an incredibly mundane, repetitive task. We should all do so well at our own repetitive tasks.<br><br>-Al<br><br><br><br><br><br>
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Leon ,<br>Just my opinion but I'd almost bet if you re-submitted that card today you would<br>get at least a 1/2 point bump in grade (20), and more than likely a full bump in<br>grade (30).<br>The longer bar code and gold stickered back is an older Sgc graded card. They have <br>softened up their criteria quite a bit on paper loss since, if the loss of paper is <br>as minimal as this. No way it gets a 40 though with that paper pull on the back.<br><br>Tony A.<br><br>ps - Beautiful card none the less.....
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Jim,<br><br>The definition of corrupt includes "lack of integrity". If definitions can be interpreted like cards (in grading) then I would guess that a lot of people would believe that PSA is corrupt. <br><br>A dealer telling me he could guarantee 8's doesn't prove PSA is corrput, but it sure didn't give me the feeling that "subjectivity" is the only ingredient/criteria in grading. It might even go towards confirming what the initial post was trying to point out.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>If the moderator of the Net54 cannot get the benefit of the doubt, what hope is there for the rest of us?<br><br>Leon's D303 should be at least SGC 30 and no one (aside from Al) would complain if the card was in a SGC 40 holder.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Cool....I do think we can have a good debate. Here are a few more points. <br><br>1. I beg to differ about this being miscut. If it's miscut then I wish all of my cards were. It's not 50/50 but I doubt it would get an MC qualifier. <br><br>2. If you look at his name on the obverse you will see it's not perfectly regsitered in the scan. In real life it is. If you can sort of extrapolate that degree of "fuzziness" and take it out of the equation, you would see this card has very nice registration. It's hard to tell on the scan. I don't know how Tony An. does it (hi Tony) but he gets the best darn scans I have ever seen <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">.... <br><br>3. The chip on the lower corner probably ranges all the way up to a 40 in critiquing, but if not that, then definitely within a 30's range, imo. I think I could show some 40's, pretty easily, that have this much corner wear. <br><br><br>Here's another question. This card could very well get a bump up in grade if resubmitted. If this were a 15k card would I have the same chance of getting it bumped up? take care and best regards (I still consider the SGC guys friends and great graders, btw)<br>
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p> Nevermind.<br><br>Steve
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Leon:<br><br>"Miscut" is probably not the right word for it, but it's definitely cut with a tilt. <br><br>Like I said, I wouldn't grade it a 10. I'd probably grade it a 30. Given that you're saying that the lower-left corner would bring it to a 40, I would say that the paper loss on the back (in one area it takes away some of the writing, in another area it removes a small piece of ink) would bring it down to a 30.<br><br>I'd like to think that any grading company would bump a deserving card regardless of the grade. Although I don't have any $15K cards, I do have experience getting bumps that increased a card's value significantly - here's one that was once a 7.<br><br>(Edited to add: Yes, Steve, that's what I was referring to about the registration - the actual print registration is off, which is something that SGC factors into the grade).<br><br><img src="http://www.swingbattaswing.com/page10/page4/files/page4-1018-full.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><br><br>-Al
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Al<br><br>I deleted what I said, I did not want to start anything.<br><br>Steve
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>just to unofftopic this thread so it can return to its genesis...<br><br>I think Marshall is generally correct. It may well matter a bit as to who submits a card as to what grade it would get.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Al- that is a great card. From the scan it definiitely deserves an 88. Wowser!!<br><br>I think a 30 is warranted too but the card is in my collection so it's not a big deal. I was just mentioning it in the context of this thread and some other things going on. <br><br>Steve- I understand it's not the printing of the name that is in question pertaining to the registration being spoken about. I only mentioned it because the lettering, in real life, has perfect registration. In the scan it doesn't...so that is the degree of error, that needs to be taken into account, on the entire card. It's that much better in real life.<br>I do see the ink going across the border. My experience is they don't take off a lot for that on ex and below cards, depending on severity.....(re: many E90-1 Young- Boston's with hash marks on the front bottom and other off registration series of cards)
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>I do see the ink going across the border. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Leon, that is what in the printing industry they call 'registration'<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>My comment has nothing to do with how SGC grades such flaws<br><br>I was simply thinking aloud I guess. <br><br>Edited to add: The name IMO in the scan does not have a registration problem.<br><br>10 years ago I was great friends with a stripper (a printing job) and he explained<br>how he did his job and when he messed up the registration of the item he was working on would suffer.<br><br><br>In any event it is a nice card.<br><br><br>Steve<br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <br>
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>If you think it's a 10, crack it out and call it one. Just don't insist I have to believe it's gem mint or that anyone else should either.<br><br>If you want someone else's opinion and are going to buy into the whole grading shebang (which I happen to love on many levels), then quit bitching about it and live with the inconsistent nature of the beast.<br><br><br><br>AND, if you've picked PSA as your lover, then please just kindly accept she's got awful pretty skirts but can't f@%k worth a lick. Some one else may want her from afar, but wait till they have to live with her.<br><br><br><br>As they say on SNL, 'Seriously'!!!!<br><br><br><br><br><br>
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>wow...nice analogy...kids...hold your ears?<br><br>are you telling me that this...er these beauties are really PSA in disguise?<br><img src="http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/ullmandds/cleavage.png" alt="[linked image]">
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Now thems some ear muffs. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Peter- do those breasts have a face?
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>i'd assume so...unfortunately they're not mine. This is wikipedia's definition of cleavage...and it's a good one!
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I'm sure every dealer has told potential customers they can get better grades than they could--to attach any meaning to the comment is silly. Jim C.>><br><br>Huh? Jim, I'm not sure if this is a reference to my description of an auction house employee telling me they could get better grades if they submitted the cards than if I submitted them myself. If it is, it certainly is NOT silly to attach meaning to this as I happen to live in the real world where things like this happen all the time. <br><br>I'm just curious, do you think that a guy who submits thousands and thousands of cards to a particular grading company gets the same "breaks" and "considerations" and "benefits of a doubt" that Moe Bandy from Sugarleaf, Oklahoma, who sends in 8 cards a year, does?
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I don't believe I get any special breaks...period. I tell people that want me to submit for them no as it will not make a difference.<br><br>An auction house employee would not get better grades because the grader knew they were his cards. He would get them only if he could call Joe and ask for another review and point out why he thought they should be a higher grade.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Jim, <br><br>Please don't make me pull the "Harris Card" out for this debate. Yes, I always go back to that because it is a very legitimate case of PSA blatantly providing higher grades to a collection of cards. Please don't try and write that there were no trimmed cards in the bunch or that a "5" or "6" was given to a card with a crease because without the crease the card would have been a "9" or "10". <br><br><b>"I'm sure every dealer has told potential customers they can get better grades than they could--to attach any meaning to the comment is silly.</b> Silly? Please define silly. In this case, I think you may be a little misguided in your opinion of PSA, preferential treatment and "the buddy network". <br><br>I'm not trying to get your goat or piss you off but we are all entitled to our opinions, and this is one of the few that my wife didn't give me.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>I apologize for the structure of my post to all. In response to Quan i submitted a 2001 Bowman Chrome rookie auto and when it got slabbed a 9 it brought over 4000 back in the day. In response to the clown from PSA or whoever he works for you can throw out the recieving goods theory at PSA and that get submitted without any name. Are you freaking serious that i am gonna buy that load of H O R S E S H I T?<br><br><br>I spoke to Joe and he said he would personally look at the cards and deliver them to the grader. What you have to realize is that i spoke to Joe literally for about 20 minutes as to why i did not want my cards submitted by a auction house and that all i wanted is a fair shake. I find it odd that now my cards are graded and shipped and the bum will not get on the phone.<br><br>In response to the auction house not having pull with my T-206's let's get real here. The cards sold for over 36,000 dollars and trust me that particular auction house has pull wherever it goes. I just do not want to deal with any middle man and i wanted to grade the rest of my cards and sell them myself without the auction house charging a 20% buyer premium and a 10% selling premiuim.<br><br>Last but not least i have heard every excuse as to why cards grade the way they do. Here are the excuses 1.Different graders 2.Busy Card show deadline has to be met 3.Dealers send in huge amounts of cards so grades go their way 4.Depends on the pop report and value of the card and who the client is who owns the big card.<br><br>ARE YOU #$%ING KIDDING ME? THIS IS NOT FINDING A CURE FOR CANCER IT IS SIMPLY GRADING A LITTLE RECTANGULAR PIECE OF CARDBOARD AND DEFINING THE PARAMETERS OF A GRADE IS SIMPLE!<br><br>If Bernie Madoff can swindle 50 billion then trust me these grading companies can do whatever they want behind closed doors. I am gonna crack the Beauties out and throw the holders in the trash. I'll bide my time and resubmit them properly to get the right grades but with a different company. <br><br>What should be reported to the attorney general of Ca is the PSA Set Registry buy back system and the fact that they can protect high end cards in a registry. Let's turn the heat up on Pro Scam Alliance and see how they like it.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>Jim...bro you are clueless. I don't know what rock you crawled out from under but i do know 100% how the grading game is played. I sat at grading booths from 2002 to 2005 in between tournaments and watched all the moves go down between super high end dealers and the companies. I'm talking about 1000 to 100,000 dollar cards not nickel and dime cards. Do you have any idea what a huge break it is in certain cards to get a PSA 9 instead of a 8? Let's take a T-206 Eddie Plank for example. In a PSA 7 holder SMR on the card is 98,000 and in a PSA 8 holder it is 275,000 so do you understand the game now and the seriousness of money at stake when you submit a card? This is not shuffleboard in South Beach pal but the high ticket world of old and rare baseball cards.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Pro Scam Alliance...<br><br><br>I like that!
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Fred,<br><br><br><br>Of course--everyone makes mistakes--not saying they don't make mistakes. Ask your wife about this. My wife tells me I do frequently <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"><br><br><br><br>Marshall,<br><br>< br><br>What rock did I climb from under? I am one of seven collectors in the HOF and I have roughly 25,000 vintage/semi-vintage cards. I know every major vintage dealer personally and talk to many people in the hobby frequently.<br><br><br><br>Post some scans. Prove that your cards are undergraded.<br><br><br><br>Jim
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Scott Dango</b><p>are you shoelessjoejackson on ebay?<br><br><br>interesting how these types of threads never start on PSA Boards....
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>I am not shoeless joe jackson on e-bay. I do really wish i could post the cards but i cannot get the pics small enough to put them on here. I don't have to prove anything about the cards because if you know anything about American Beauties they were rough cut so most of the time i have seen 7 and 8's with a little fraying on the edge. Another thing about the beauties is that there is nothing on the back, no centering issues or ink dots because of the blank back. The cards were cello pack pulled so enough said.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If you send me scans I will post them for you.....take care
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>John J. Grillo</b><p>Marshall, I too, would appreciate it if you would post the scans..it is really not that difficult to do, especially considering the argument being made here.<br><br><br><br>My vintage collection has varied over the years (from T206s, then selling em' and then vintage boxing, and selling em', etc, etc, etc). I have submitted to PSA and SGC since the 90's. My collection is now modern junk (a term so eloquently stated here on this board) and I submit only about 10 cards a year now to BGS. <br><br><br><br>Is there widespread or systematic corruption in TPG...I doubt it. Be wary of what certain representatives of auction houses say about being able to get high grades. In my opinion, it is merely a ploy for them to get your business. Has collusion between a TPG employee and submitter occurred here and there...probably yes. We have seen enough "Red Flags" over the years to realize there are "leaks" in the system. Although I think the original post is somewhat hyperbole, a good example is provided in regards to the T206 Plank card. <br><br><br><br>The most important aspect of TPG for me is if the graders got MY cards graded right! For the most part, PSA, SGC, and BGS have been very good at grading my cards. I am not the type of guy to worry or be jealous about what grades the "other guy" is receiving, just as long as my cards are graded accurately. I guess my attitude stems from not collecting cards from an investment standpoint. <br><br><br><br>I am a very disciplined and successful person in all aspects of my life, with the exception of collecting cards--I am a total wreck. I buy high and sell low...but it is an outlet for me, a passion, and a hobby.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"if you've picked PSA as your lover, then please just kindly accept she's got awful pretty skirts but can't f@%k worth a lick."<br><br>--Lady (hi Joann) and Gentlemen, I think we have a very strong candidate for the line of the year for 2009. <br><br>One benign explanation for an auctioneer having ability to get higher grades is that some of them employ ex-TPG graders who presumably know how the particular TPG trains its graders and therefore presumably know what characteristics to look for in cards to resubmit. Especially in this era of bumps at PSA, that is a perfectly legitimate claim for an auctioneer to make. <br><br>It is also 100% correct that none of the TPGs are 100% correct. And the mistakes go in various directions, not just one or the other. PSA has made some high profile blunders, like grading a fake Ruth rookie. SGC did too; ask Keith Olbermann about his fake Joe Doyle. They also routinely make less expensive and interesting mistakes, usually in undergrading a given card. I purchased two GAI 6 1954 Bowman cards that were unbelievably nice any way I looked at them,, cracked them out, marveled over the quality of the cards, and resubmitted to SGC. They are now rightfully in SGC 88 holders. I bought a PSA 2 1954 Bowman, cracked it out and it is beautiful-at least a 6-just a FUBARed grade. Similarly, I've had cards rejected one month and accepted as high grade the next by both PSA and SGC. I've cracked other obviously misgraded cards and gotten big (2-3 grade) bumps. And I am small potatoes in terms of submittals to any service, so there's no preference there. <br><br>Marshall, grading isn't objective science, it is subjective. Leon's card is a good example. I see it and think vg-ex immediately. The paper loss on the back drops it to a 30 for me. A 10 is ridiculous and I think if Leon ran it by SGC again they'd either agree or explain why. I've done that and while I've not been happy with the result at times I've always been satisfied with the explanation. <br><br>I can't say much for PSA; at least not much good. Their positions on many things are about as self-serving as a gas station and as illogical as Dr. McCoy (Damnit, Jim!). I've been very critical of them here, roasted them in articles I've written for magazines, and blasted them on my web site for the intense stupidity of certain decisions they made (www.americasgreatboxingcards.com--look for the My Soapbox page). If there was favoritism and if anyone should be screwed on submittals it is me but I recently submitted a batch of cards to PSA for reconsideration. Two of twelve bumped up half a grade, and they were the most valuable cards of the group. The others had explanatory post-its attached and while I happen to think that their methodology is incorrect on certain issues, I understand the explanations. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Boxingcardman....the only reason PSA is maybe giving you some fair grades now is because they are like NFL Ref's and now it is just a make up call. I think the point most folks are missing from the post is that these are cello pack pulled HELLLOOOO. In most old vintage cards there are slight bumps or dings in corners yet the corners remain sharp, also there could be slight color toning and ink runs which can make the difference between a card grading a 5 or a 7.<br><br><br><br>I am not talking about cards that are 5 or 7's, what we are talking about is razor sharp clean cello pack pulled cards with the most vibrant colors. The whole thing really is a joke and i know what happened and i'm over it. Sorry for the emotional outburst to all on the board and it is a shame these cards will not be offered to the set registry collectors who would love to own them. Here is my last thought on the subject and i am sure Leon is going to throw a 15 yard flag roughing the company call on me. F *** Y O U Pro Scam Alliance!<br><br><br>edited one word for language (leon)
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>15 yard penalty, personal foul, roughing the grader... You know, if I were the ref, I'd just give you the game for that call...
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>The idea that just because cards are pulled directly from cello packs they should grade high is preposterous.<br><br>You can buy a pack of cards that were printed LAST WEEK and find 6s and 7s in the pack. Color and surface are not the only attributes of a card; corners, centering, toning, print registration, edges, all play a part. Pulling 50-year-old cards out of a cello pack is an unbelievable gamble; you're just as likely to get 4s as you are to get 7s, and you're almost guaranteed not to get 9s and 10s.<br><br>-Al
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>anger management. why do business with the devil?
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>I agree with Al. It is a huge gamble to open old packs (cello or wax). You can open a brand new pack of cards from this year or a couple of years ago and there is no guarantee that the centering is perfect and that the ink isn't smudged in some way. I would venture to guess that most of the cards would be nice but there are always things that may not allow for a higher grade. <br><br>I'd like to see a few scans of these cards, that would be the tell all. People could actually chime in with their opinions if we could see exactly what your talking about.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>I cannot get the scans on the site or i would post the cards. To address the last two posts please tell me something i do not already know. Of course when you look at cello packs not all the cards are gonna come out clean and more likely than not the cards may be compressed together from time and damage is done from pulling them from one another.<br><br>Why i opened the cards is very simple. One pack was detached from the board and the other 11 packs remained on the board. I posted the board and attached packs for sale in the non-sports section. A gentleman who i will not name sent me a e-mail and stated it could have been the oldest find of a non-sports card item and that he would offer five figures for the item, by the time i got the e-mail it was to late because i had spoken to a friend of mine who stated the Beauties in general are a tough card and near impossible to find in Mint condition and if i could get the first ever found 9's and 10's the premium would be grand. Check the pop report and you will see it is a tough series. <br><br>I noticed there was 6 cards in a pack and determined that the middle four cards were more than likely in mint to nr-mnt condition. I opened the detached pack and two of the middle cards were spot on- Perfect centering, razor corners, no jagged edges, and the ink looked like the day it came off the press. From that point i started to crack the packs, of course there were miscuts, off centered cards, corner dings and so forth in the 62 cards that i opened. <br><br>What also happened in the 62 cards i opened is that about 20 of the 48 middle cards in the packs were dead on. These are the cards i am upset about with how they got graded. I have never seen such clean cards when it comes to vintage. I could care less about the 24 cards that were on the top and bottom and of course i expected them to grade between 5 and 7.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Marshall,<br><br>Email the scans/pictures to me, I'll post them for you. Using the "insert object" option only allows you to post 128Kb images.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>Ok Fred...i am sending you the scans of some of the cards that a gentleman who i will not mention wanted to see because he was interested in a lesser grade set. Also there is a pic of the entire board with the cello packs attached that no one believe i had found except for one dealer who e-mailed me. Keep doubting what i say baseball card world because i am 1/9 at aquaduct to produce the goods. I think some of these cards are 9's and when my cards get back from Pro Scam Alliance i will post the rest of the pics. By the way Lay the 1 point because Arizona walks over the Falcons. Bring the noise and yes i love to @#$ing ROCK!
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>The pictures were all > 128K so he wasn't able to upload them via the "insert object" link. I reduced the file size to accommodate the 128K limit. <br><br>EDITED TO ADD: I SURE WISH THERE WERE A FEW T206 CARDS IN THE LOT: <br><br> <br>Here are some notes from Marshall:<br><br><br><br>"these are not the best cards that were in the group of 62"<br><br><br><br>"please post that these were not the finest examples" <br><br><br><br>"will provide the pics when i recieve the cards back from Pro Scam Alliance"<br><br><br><br><br><br>One noticeable difference between cards is that card 7 has more generous borders than the other cards. Do all of the cards measure exactly (within 1/64") the same?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Marshall, the pictures are numbered 1-7 below. Please feel free to comment on the pics! <br><br><br><br><br><br>1 -<p> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1231017483.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> <br><br><br><br>2 -</p><p> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1231017516.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> <br><br><br><br>3 -</p><p> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1231017562.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> <br><br><br><br>4 -</p><p> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1231017597.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> <br><br><br><br>5 -</p><p> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1231017659.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> <br><br><br><br>6 -</p><p> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1231017686.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> <br><br><br><br>7 -</p><p> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1231017714.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> </p>
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>Please understand that these cards were the only cards allowed to be produced in the year of 1944 and the government allowed Gum Inc to produce them only because of the thought the Beauties would give moral to the country and the GI's abroad. The cards were crudely cut just as T-206 baseball cards and i cannot tell you how many PSA 8's that i have seen that are much more off center than some of these with very rough edges which these do not have. The cards measure correctly and the corners are razor sharp. My scanner is not the best so there is a slight glare to some of the corners and to the total appearance of the cards. I showed the cards to two major players before sending them in and they wish to remain silent but having said that both are in shock at the atrocity of grading providing by Pro Scam Alliance. They also are not sending cards into PSA right now because of the auction house scandals possibly being tied into grade bumping and favortism towards large volume submitters. Go Cardinals lay the point.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>Fred...thanks so much for your help. Greatly appreciated.
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Baseball Card corruption
Posted By: <b>David M</b><p>I bought the 3rd best set that Marshall sold over on the non-sport side. And even in the 3rd best, there are several cards that are at least 8's and could be bumped higher depending on the grader. Several of the cards I got were off center, or had some dings, but for the most part, all of these cards have razor sharp corners. If there weren't any 9's or 10's in what Marshall submitted in the two best sets, chances are they don't exist. These cards just don't exist in better condition.
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