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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I have been a steadfast "non-soaker" but decided (with a great deal of trepidation) to see what would happen to a 1911 Zeenut with black scrapbook paper attached to the back which I recently won on ebay. No one seemed to have any ideas how Zeenuts might fare, it seems all the soaking going on is mostly with T205s and T206s, but I decided to give it a shot. I know a lot depends on the type of glue used, but using an eye dropper, saucer of water and a blunt tweezers, I was able to completely remove the paper. I put the water on the paper and its edges and not on the rest of the card and then immediately dried it with paper towels inside a phone book with lots of heavy books on it to keep it falt. That's the good news. The back looks fine, the front has a small "halo" effect where the water was. It looks very minor but enough to make me swear off this method in the future. <br />What is interesting is that I have seen, in the past, Zeenuts on ebay with the "halo", ungraded and also slabbed and was always curious. Now I know...
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Can you post before and after scans if you have?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />t206kid
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>The "halo effect" as you call it is from the constant dripping of the water and then letting it dry out. This is the same effect that you get at the bottom of a coffee mug as the little remaining liquid evaporates. There is no such ring when the cup is full. I don't know what the stock is on a Zeenut, but as long as it isn't a photographic plate (like a Fatima) then you should have <b>immersed</b> the card completely in <b>distilled</b> water (virtually no solids) to avoid the stains.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>The ENTIRE card should be soaked under tap water. Patted dry, then placed between a flat wash cloth and 2 heavy books to dry the rest of the way. There will be NO staining at all from the water.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>To add to Dan's comments. I would put the card face down so the water will soak thru the back of the card and not the front with the heavy books on top.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Wow Bob - I'm really glad you posted that. I won one of those Zeenuts too - awesome looking front w/black scrapbook paper remnant on the back. I half thought about seeing if I could get it off somehow. Now I think I'll just keep the bit of black paper on the back.<br /><br />J
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>joe Brennan</b><p>Dan, Tap water? I disagree. Too many chemical tha would remain after the water evaporates. I would highly recommend distilled water. JMO though as I am a rookie.<br><br>People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Jeff Mohler</b><p>The first time I soaked a card, I used tap water. I got the "halo" effect too. On Keith O'Leary's advice, I soaked it again in distilled water. The halo effect went away after the card was resoaked. Sad to say that the card (an E210) still graded an SGC 10. Way too many wrinkles that didn't come out with the soaking!!<br /><br />I would try soaking the Zeenut again in distilled water and see what happens.<br /><br />Jeff
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Halo is becuase you dropped and dried. Gotta soak the whole card. Then no halo. And it isn't too late, put him in the water. Distilled water is better, but not absolutely necessary, unless you have very hard water, or you have a water softener. If you have either of those, then definitely go for distilled water. Filtered water is better than straight from the tap.<br /><br />1911 Zeenuts soak just fine. I think when you get to "newer" Zeenuts they might not do so well in water.<br /><br />Put that guy back in water, let him really soak, then dry him out, and let us know the new results.<br /><br />Frank.<br /><br />I've thought about setting any card of mine that I've soaked to remove glue and scrapbook crap... maybe put them in a separate box, to be burned when I die. It would be wrong to pass those on to anyone. NOT.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>For the second time. SOAK THE ENTIRE CARD! There will be no halo or staining. I have been using tap water for 30 years so I know it works just fine. Baltimore tap water I use. I know different cities have different grades of city water so I can understand the distilled approach. I am just stating what works for me and I have thousands of cards to back me up. How many have you done? My point exactly. Face down or face up has never made a difference, the water dries out from both sides as the cloth is present on both sides. My T206 Plank has been soaked, 1933 Lajoie, 1910 Baltimore News. My only disaster, my 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I soaked him too long and he floated into 2 pieces! The top and bottom came apart. I elmers glued it back together and it resides in an SGC holder. Dan.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Brad</b><p><b>Q:Is this procedure considered altering?<br /><br />Q:Would cards get rejected from grading companys if they noticed a halo affect?<br /><br /><br />Can anyone please post a scan of this "halo affect"?<br /><br /><br />Very interesting thread!</b><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Dan, what grade did SGC give the Mantle?
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p><img src="http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/trophybob/top.jpg" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"><br><br /><img src="http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/trophybob/mohler.jpg" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"><br><br /><br />After scans, the before scan is gone.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Blach</b><p>Show us the back.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>The last Q&A on this link is interesting;<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amigos.org/preservation/faq/preserve.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.amigos.org/preservation/faq/preserve.html</a>
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Card is drying after a complete bath. I'll post a scan tonight of the outcome.<br />BTW- No, I won't be offering the card for sale, this 1911 Zeenut will go in to my permanent collection after being graded by SGC, as all my Zeenuts are graded by them.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Brad</b><p>Sorry, wrong thread!~
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The only cards I've ever soaked off are Scrapps and I used tap water to do it...granted our water is high quality here so distilled is probably best for most people. I use typing paper to dry the cards...changing the sheets every 5-10 minutes until there is little to no water left in the card then I let the card sit in the book between the typing paper over night. It has worked like a charm 5 times for me now.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Halo is gone, thanks guys. Note on the back that the thick black paper is gone also, little bit of staining but it was there before.<br /><br /><img src="http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/trophybob/mohler2.jpg" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"><br><br /><img src="http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/trophybob/back.jpg" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"><br><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I just have to say that makes me so uncomfortable in my gut.<br />I realize that you are free to do as you will, and the debate has raged and achieved nothing.<br />So, you are able to shout out your pride at soaking cards by the scores, and hopefully I am free to be unhappy about it. I'm super super conservative on this issue, and just wish cards were left as they were found - if you pull them out of a scrapbook and there is damage, that should be the cost of removal.<br />My opinion, and I certainly won't be changing anyone elses.<br /><br />sincerely<br />daniel<br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You are absolutely correct. Your opinion, or mine, or anyone's won't change the matter. I, for one, don't care if cards have been soaked or not...but we've had this debate forever.....
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I know Leon, and I apologize for even posting....<br />It's almost a pavlovian thing for me, and I start feeling sick if i don't begin typing a response immediately. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I've always been ruled by my gut, which is why it grows ever so slowly each year.<br /><br />Happy collecting everyone over the holidays, and everyone to their will.<br /><br /><br />Kind regards<br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>I am real uncomfortable with this "soaking" thread. Why is this any different than coloring a border or trimming the edge? Do you disclose the soaking when you sell the cards? If you are keeping the cards in your own collection, then do what you want to do with your cards, but when the time comes to sell, the soaking should be disclosed.<br /><br />Rick
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Matthew</b><p>The best way to soak cardboard or paper from the back of early Zeenuts is using distilled water. I use a foam plate (with edges) & let the entire card soak for a couple minutes. The paper will usually completely come off or at the most a small amt may have to be removed. Using some copy paper, press the card dry a few times, then leave it in a heavy book for a day or so. I personally see nothing wrong with it but I don't plan on selling them any time soon anyway.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>The fact of the matter is that a lot of high grade T206 cards are that way because they were pasted into a scrapbook for the past 100 years and then carefully removed with a little help from a saucer of water. Indeed, my best work resides in an SGC 70 holder as part of my permament collection. It's a gorgeous card.<br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>With enormous respect Paul, you don't get to cram down your facts of life down my throat, and then spend endless time bitching, moaning, and insinuating wrongdoing about trimmed t206's living in PSA8 holders.<br />You've chosen where you are happy to draw the line, you would have a lot of support with that stance, and then others who would think your choices unsavoury.....so you live with yours, and I'll live with mine.<br />I don't believe in soaking, or any other form of screwing with a card's condition. Does that mean I'm pushing up hill. Yep. Do I need your condescension? I thought I had worded my post well enough to avoid it.<br /><br />Sincerely<br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>I'm not sure how to respond to that post -- I certainly wasn't trying to come across as condescending. Since you and I are on opposite sides of this issue, I understand why my posts will always be read by you with some measure of skepticism or even disdain. But, I assure you, I thought your last post was quite politic -- I am comfortable living in our separate worlds and respecting the choices of the others. <br /><br />I draw my lines where PSA and SGC draw their lines. In other posts I have taken issue with grading companies that set certain standards (i.e., no grading trimming cards) and then violate those standards. I also think that people that want to set different standards -- i.e., that soaking is an impermissible alteration -- should start by lobbying the grading services, which permit erasures and soaking even when they are obvious.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Paul<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well done, Bob. I was afraid you were going to leave the halo and forget about it. <br /><br /><br />Guys, what Bob did was remove something from the back of the card that should not have been there in the first place. <br /><br />He didn't add anything, color, build up the corners, anything like that. If he were soaking and stretching and retrimming, I too have trouble with that. It really is where you draw the line. Golly, removing a bit of scrapbook and flour paste, I preceive he has a duty to the card to do that.<br /><br />Good job, Bob.<br /><br />Joann, you need some distilled water, paper towels, typing paper, and some heavy books. Soak your Zeenut, float that stuff off, pat him dry, then sandwich him between paper and books. Your Zeenut needs your help and is depending on it.<br /><br /><br />Right on, the PSA 1 and 2 T206s rubbed around in a kid's pants pocket, those PSA 7s were in scrapbooks, soaked off. That is how those corners survived the generations. If you feel violated and evil for having them, mail them to me and I'll rid you from the guilt. I'm here to help.<br /><br /><br />Frank.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rick and Daniel,,<br /><br />I agree with you--it is very sad that collectors are soaking cards--just another form of card alteration.<br /><br />One would have hoped with all the controversy around Mastronet that it would put this behavior to a halt.<br /><br />Very sad.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Do you agree that many or at least some PSA/SGC 8 T206 cards got that way by being wonderfully preserved in a scrapbook before being soaked in water to remove all evidence of scrapbooking?<br /><br />And, if the great majority of high grade T206 cards have already been slabbed, how do you propose finding which ones were soaked if the evidence is, as Steve Foreman has said, undetectable? How do you propose dealing with all these cards that have already been slabbed?<br /><br />Paul
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> I can only speak for T206's, but I know of at least 4000+ cards which have been found since the late 80's that are in Ex+ or better condition. Are some cards in holders trimmed or doctored, yes, but in my opionion a very small percentage. The fact is that there are plenty of T206's out there in 80/6 or better condition that have not be tampered with, but I can't speak to Caramels or other tough issues, because there distribution numbers compared to T206's is so small. <br /><br />Be well Brian<br /><br />PS soaking OJ'S and early trade cards has been an excepted practice for several decades, so I don't see what the big fuss is about. Soaking won't magically erase creases, but will restore a card to it's original state.<br />I don't think anyone on the board thinks that rebuilding a corner or adding a color to a card is an acceptable practice. <br /><br /><br />Jim, You can dectect whether a card has been soaked or not, and I doubt that many of the PSA/SGC 8'S HAVE been. I have about 15-20 7's and 8's slabbed by PSA and another 20+ slabbed by SGC and will guarentee that none have been altered in any way. 90% were purchased from original find's and the other 10% over an extended period of time.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>All apologies to those that would vomit over this, but I really do love this card:<br /><br /><a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c322/T206Collector/T206%20Collection/PfeisterThrowingSGC70.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a><br /><br />Before I sent it off to SGC, it had a thin layer of paper covering 3/4 of the back. I got it for a song. When I dipped it in water, the paper practically removed itself and there was no glue residue. I dried it between the pages of a very big book and then sent it off to SGC. I don't think this is an impermissible alteration at all.<br /><br />But, of course, adding color and paper restoration are HUGE bads. I think everyone agrees with that. Where do I draw the line -- where does PSA/SGC draw the line? As Brian said, at alterations that do something other than returning the card to its original state. <br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p><br /><br />You guys should not stop here--lets see all you guys who stretch out the cards and trim them give detailed instructions to us all as well.<br /><br />And please since this is apparently widespread at least among the auction houses lets see all the detailed instructions on taking light creases out of the cards.<br /><br />After all, on the premier vintage baseball card message board in the hobby, we ought to be able to benefit from all the expertise that exists on how to alter and restore cards.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[You guys should not stop here--lets see all you guys who stretch out the cards and trim them give detailed instructions to us all as well.]<br /><br />Jim,<br /><br />The way that you view the soakers is the way that I view the stretchers and trimmers. We just draw our lines differently.<br /><br />Brian,<br /><br />I don't think water soaking T206 cards is detectable. And, if it is, SGC sure slabs a lot of them.<br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />I hope and pray that you are right and that it is just a small percentage of psa 8s that have been doctored and that you can tell if a card has been soaked and that very few cards that are soaked wind up in psa or sgc 8 holders.<br /><br />It is just horrible to do this.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I recognize you are not responding to my posts or questions. But if we will never know what "percentage of psa 8's that have been doctored" or whether "a card has been soaked" or how many that "are soaked wind up in psa or sgc 8 holders," isn't it possible that you may have to change your standards?<br /><br />All I am saying is that if you start spending thousands of dollars on high grade cards, doesn't it make sense to understand the rules of the card grading game BEFORE you drop that kind of coin? And if you understand that water soaked cards are routinely slabbed by SGC -- I've never had one rejected on that basis -- then you can make an educated decision about whether you want to set down a couple thousand dollars on one? <br /><br />I think you are most upset because you have spent untold thousands on cards, only to find out that the auction houses you purchased cards from and the card graders themselves have adhered to a standard different from the one that you now espouse. <br /><br />Ultimately, it's none of my business, and I'm really not trying to be a d*ck about any of this. But I love my soaked SGC graded cards and I think there's nothing wrong with them.<br /><br />Paul <br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Jim,<br /> I can assure you that I am not a stretcher or a trimmer, and wouldn't have the slightest idea how it is done. And I have soaked probably less than 20 cards in 30 years, and most of those were scrapps, so I'm hardly an expert.<br /><br />Paul, I don't know if SGC/psa can tell whether a card has been soaked, but in most cases, I can, the texture is slightly different, as well as the rigidity(is that a word) of the card. <br /><br /><br /> Be well Brian
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[I don't know if SGC/psa can tell whether a card has been soaked, but in most cases, I can, the texture is slightly different, as well as the rigidity(is that a word) of the card.]<br /><br />I would agree that in some cases you can tell the difference by texture. But there is no way of knowing whether the texture is different because the card was left in a humid cellar for 50 years, or soaked in a bottle of Poland Spring last week -- which is why I think SGC just slabs them all.<br /><br />I will say, however, that the Pfeister above was in water for about 10 seconds before the paper on the back peeled right off. It was not emersed in water long enough for the texture to have any noticeable effect.<br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Jim,<br /> I will be ahppy to email you pictures of all of my high grade T206'S, of which NONE have been soaked if you would like, and would also be happy to examine your cards and give you my opinion. I think soaking is the least of your worries, trimming on T206's especially high grade is a much bigger problem. Soaking doesn't change the make up of the card, but slicing a little off an over sized border is bull sh@@@T....and shouldn't be tolerated. Be well Brian
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>However one views soaking, I think Paul is right that in most cases either it cannot be detected or grading services will not reject a card for that reason alone. If it warps the paper and turns the card into Malibu Beach, sure, but my understanding is that if done using certain techniques that won't happen. So how does one then detect it? Indeed I believe Dave Forman said as much in the conversation with Leon which Leon published here.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul,<br />This is not the way I think and its a bit unffair of you to suggest that economics drive my thinking.<br /><br />It is very simple. It is the difference between right and wrong. While I wish that there were no soaked cards in psa or sgc holders that does not make my decision different on doing it from here.<br /><br />Only a small part of my net worth is in cards and I want to see the hobby do what is the right thing.<br /><br />And the right thing is to stop the alteration and restoration of cards immediately. These are treasures and should be kept in an unaltered state.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...but I do want to say something that I hope helps:<br /><br />I really don't mean to offend anyone. These arguments get very personal -- when Jim says it's "horrible," I feel like he's telling me my collection sucks and I'm a card doctor. I don't feel that way, so I respond that I am just adhering to the standards accepted by the major grading companies. <br /><br />I'm totally sick of these fights and wish we could all come to some sort of consensus. To me, if everyone would understand that a card can be soaked without showing any ill effects, then they'd realize it doesn't matter which ones have been soaked and which ones haven't. But it may just be a chicken and the egg thing. I don't know. I'm too tired. Must go to sleep.<br /><br />Still, please, I have no ill will towards anyone. These arguments have been going on forever and I think I may just have to stop entertaining them. But it's like Daniel said, when someone calls soaking a card "horrible," it just makes my blood boil -- in much the same way as when someone that doesn't agree with soaking has to put up with a few lessons from the card soakers here.<br /><br />I really must go to sleep.<br /><br />Paul<br /><br />p.s. Jim, sorry about putting economics into. That was an unfair personal shot. <br /><br />p.p.s. Just read Brian's last post and I think it is SPOT ON! I agree with the following 100%<br /><br />[I think soaking is the least of your worries, trimming on T206's especially high grade is a much bigger problem. Soaking doesn't change the make up of the card, but slicing a little off an over sized border is bull sh@@@T....and shouldn't be tolerated.]<br /><br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />I appreciate it and you might be right. I am most concerned about microtrimming/reshaping but also other things I believe are fundamentally and morally wrong including crease removal, soaking, stretching,power erasing or anything else to alter or restore the card<br /><br />Whether a card is trimmed or not trimmed it seems to have no impact on value--with the psa 8s all that matters is the pop.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />We disagree--you seem like a good guy--if I am lucky we will meet soon.<br /><br />But I do think its horrible and I do believe that those who soak cards are card doctors.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I would be willing to bet that 99% of all Scrapps "cards" that are in slabs have been soaked at one time or another.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>A card doctor... if my T206 is sickly, with paste and black scrapbook remains on its back, out of the way, I'll heal that sickly card.<br /><br />It isn't a question of right and wrong, even if you keep repeating that mantra. <br /><br />It might be a question of degree... That paste and scrap isn't part of the card, nothing wrong with removing it.<br /><br /><br />And to take some position that none of your cards have ever been soaked, maybe true if you have no cards, or only Upper Deck cards. If you have a T206 card, it may well have been soaked in the 20s, or 30s or 40s... or the 90s, or even this century... and maybe more than once. Orignial finds my hind end... maybe if you pulled it from a Piedmont pack, maybe then it has never been soaked.<br /><br /><br />I seem to recall that this is a thread about soaking. When I posted in those other threads folks were quick to suggest that I not read them or post in them if I didn't agree with them. I'm not suggesting you guys consider that. To the contrary, I want you to read, and learn where the line should be.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>While I highly respect Jim's purist views, at the same time I think one has to consider how widespread and generally accepted the practice of soaking is, and has been historically, as explained by Frank and others, before condemning those who practice or condone it.<br /><br />I would also guess, for example, there is not a major card dealer or auction house that would not flatten out a corner flip. <br /><br />I don't see this subject in black and white terms, and I don't think in this day and age it is realistic to do so. I think it is a spectrum along which there are a lot of nuances. <br /><br />Finally, I think this thread reinforces that it would be difficult or not impossible ever to get a meaningful consensus.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Peter, I disagree, unless, of course, you consider a consensus to equate with unanimity. If a consensus is more than 50% surely there is a consensus...soaking is acceptable. I submit it would be closer to 90% and there you really have a consensus. Count me in the 90%.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I'm with Steve. Card soaking has and will always be acceptable by most card collectors. I don't understand what the big deal is with removing scrap book residue or glue if it is undetectable. I would be willing to bet that many of Jim's PSA 8 cards have been soaked and he could never tell.<br /><br />If it's impossible to detect then why worry about it? That just seems like unnecessary angst.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"It is very simple. It is the difference between right and wrong."<br />"It is just horrible to do this"<br />"But I do think its horrible and I do believe that those who soak cards are card doctors."<br /><br /><br />All I can say is wow - how very arrogant. I love all the purist who try to make those of us who believe that erasing pencil or soaking a card is not doctoring, feel morally bankrupt. Particularly when I can almost guarantee that if they accidentally and hypothetically spilled something on one of their precious unaltered cards (or to use an example that another member has used in the past, a piece of snot landed on it) they would immediately wipe the card clean. <br /><br />For what its worth, I agree with what I believe to be the majority view (implicitly accepted by the grading companies) that soaking is not doctoring or altering (as long as its not accompanied by stretching/trimming).<br /><br />Soaked and proud to have it in my collection:<br /><br /><img src="http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/jkrasner2/1922E121HoytfMedium.jpg">
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I agree that soaking is not an issue as well. <br /><br />Question to Daniel and Jim. I don't know either of you but did you collect cards BEFORE slabbing existed or does the little number drive you? <br /><br />I, like most here are happy with creases...happy to flat out a corner...happy to release a piece of tape and even have no problem doing some light erase work. Sometimes a card needs a little work, like my car or Joan Rivers.<br /><br />DJ
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>"These are treasures and should be kept in an unaltered state"<br /><br />Glue residue itself is the alteration unless the manufacturer issued the cards with ugly bits of paper pasted to them. Removing the glue is just removing the alteration. "Real" treasures are handled this way by museums all the time. Paintings are cleaned, heads are reaffixed to statues, shards of pottery are glued back into whole pieces. Michelangelo's David was damaged 450 years ago and Giorgio Vasari saved the arm and it was reattached. Imagine if the Rosetta Stone was found with glue and paper stuck to it...If "purists" back then ojected to its removal we probably still would not be able to decipher hieroglyphics.<br /><br />Extreme examples, yes, but my point is why hold cards up to a "greater" standard than one of a kind objects of actual historical significance?<br /><br />Howard
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Howard,<br /><br />Under your definition anything is acceptable.<br /><br />Hey--i disagree--I realize the majority think differently--but I think its wrong to restore or alter cards in any way.<br /><br />As I said, lets see more how-to threads with those who practice crease removal(not wrinkles) showing us how you alter the cards in this way.<br /><br />Soon we will know all the tricks of the trade and be ready to start sliding them by sgc and psa.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>dead horse here.....many will continue to soak. I'm guilty too. Freed about 600 cards from a vintage scrapbook -- about 90% non-sports but also some N162's--two of which reside in SGC70 and SGC60 holders. They are no longer in my collection and they were sold as SGC70 and SGC60's. I did tell the person who bought them that they'd been soaked. They did not look soaked but were. The 60+ Old Judges had been skinned, so no back. They were soaked out and sold on ebay as such and brought great prices for what they were. <br /><br />There will never be concensus on this. There will always be two sides. It' as polarizing as many of the issues that confront us in the Republican/Democratic debate. I'd say that each side has their beliefs and I'd warrant that most of the card 'doctors' who soak here sleep just as well as the 'purists'. At least Dr. Me slept fine last night.....
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>16 days before I turn 52, and I slept very well last night. Best night's sleep in a couple of weeks.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>My Mantle received a 2. It has a hefty crease. Back when it was still a hobby, before all of the investors entered, soaking was popular to remove scrapbook paper or straighten a corner or to flatten a warped card. If you will notice, the cards I have soaked over the years are still in my collection. I soak stuff that I keep to enhance the physical appearance as mentioned above. It didn't matter back then as people collected and didn't invest. Yes my cards will be sold one day, I may not be around to see it but I do not consider them doctored by plain water. My entire 1962 and 1971 sets were soaked while in the plastic sheets and binders! We had a basement flood and those 2 sets were at the bottom of the cabinet! NOT FUN! Luckily I had a lot of good friends and family members, about 12 of us stayed up through the night, pulling the cards, patting them dry, and placing them between some type of weight. The 62 set was completely saved, the 71 set lost about 15 cards while pulling them out of the pages, a few of the black borders decided to stay behind with plastic sheet. Good Bye guys and Gals.<br /><br /><br>Edited because I need to stay off of this board.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />We may be nut cases with ignorant money but we nut cases have made spectacular returns buying vintage baseball cards over the last 10-15 years.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i woke this morning to read this thread...guys, i am with Jim on this one...i can't believe what i am hearing, i guess i am a purist as well, how could all of you bash Mastro's for "preparring" cards (which i do not endorse)...only to happily explain how you soak cards, clean them up, "prepare" them for grading?...come on, sounds like a double standard here. <br /><br />a card should be left un-tampered with...left exactly the way it was when you obtained it...i think Daniel hit it on the head, the paper damage on the back of a card, pulled from a scrapbook, is the price you pay for pulling it out...i have been collecting for 15 years and the thought of "touching" a card has never even crossed my mind...<br /><br />escpecially if you plan to send it in to a grading company...you are knowingly cleaning up a card to acheive a higher grade...let me ask you, if & when you go to sell the cards, will you explain that the SGC 70, or PSA 8 has been soaked? of course you won't, and that is the scary part...<br /><br />sorry for my rant, but was just surprised to hear all of this...
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I don't recall everyone bashing Mastro's...
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>People have been soaking cards forever. And people have been regularly discussing methods for soaking cards on this board, without much if any backlash, for at least the past 5 years.<br /><br />February 2002:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1013098098/Soaking+t205%27s+to+remove+scrapbook+residue" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1013098098/Soaking+t205%27s+to+remove+scrapbook+residue</a><br /><br />June 2003<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1056312877/Old+Judge-Tobacco+Card+Scrapbook" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1056312877/Old+Judge-Tobacco+Card+Scrapbook</a><br /><br />A post I began back in July 2004:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1090811501/Any+Suggestions" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1090811501/Any+Suggestions</a>-<br /><br />Aug. 2004<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1099343294/Glue+cleaning+on+the+backs+of+cards" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1099343294/Glue+cleaning+on+the+backs+of+cards</a>-<br /><br />Aug. 2005<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1124559528/Cleaning+t206" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1124559528/Cleaning+t206</a>--<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>DJ, your post is simply meanspirited and unintelligent, so no need to go into any lengths to describe my collecting history. Sort of like who's got the bigger d@#*........., and somehow you don't sound all that endowed - with knowledge.<br /><br />Frank, I would just say that in comparison to your scathing comments and T-Rex's alongside, so numerous and incredibly overbearing on previous threads, my comment that it made me feel unwell inside to imagine the practice of soaking repeated thousands and thousands of times was incredibly benign. <br />Please tell me where I have judged anyone who participates.<br />I was willing, however, to judge the practice itself.<br />It was, just ONE opinion, and was hardly screamed across multiple threads with the intensity of your and other voices across those posts regarding Auction House doctoring. And yes, I flat out judge it to be doctoring.<br /><br />If you wanted to just ask how I came to my opinion on soaking you could simply have asked.<br />I will share it regardless.<br /><br />Once you have made a decision to clean up a card, there can be absolutely no way of setting limits that will be adhered to by all. It's like being a little bit pregnant.<br />There will be some who clean with distilled/tap water to remove debris - others who will soak and then press...just to see if it really is possible to 'grow' the size of a card and make a slight trim here or there possible, others who use erasers to clean pencil marks - and many more who will make attempts at stain or dirt they can gently rub away at, those who simply lay down a corner - and those who lay it down with a little adhesive and pressure to hide any original lift, those who when removing a card from a scrapbook and in the process create back damage - and others who after viewing the damage will say "this card was never meant to exist thus", and skin the back, find a clean back off another example with front damage, and marry the two in wedded 'corrected to original' bliss, and the list goes on, and on, and on.<br />The reason for setting a nil policy on doing anything to cards is that it makes the process simple. I buy cards, I enjoy them, and then they pass in whatever way to the next person. It's not that some will do this, and others will do that, and 'whatever' because its just all too much to worry about.<br /><br />What I hear from those voices who feel the practice is ok is a couple of things.<br />What has happened in the past is unknowable, so any efforts to create a higher standard now is somehow stupid. To that, I would just say: the women's vote. Sure, they as a sex were treated badly and unequally by various societies for countless eons, but that hardly sets a precedent for not righting a wrong, and setting standards as of today that make it hard in the workplace and in society in general for them to be descriminated against. Will some go ahead anyway because of their own version of what is ok? Sure. But we still have the law to protect our daughters and wives and make sure there is recourse and penalty for wrongdoing.<br />I have not set the law that soaking is wrong, and would take the overwhelming popular sentiment of the day in this less than life altering hobby to make such judgement. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to have a go at voicing what I think makes the practice wrong, and either creating new thought amongst those who hadn't set their minds in stone on the issue, or at least opened avenues to have my own mind changed by the better argument. This first one regarding whats been done in the past I don't feel to be a terrific argument.<br /><br />And the second one most widely penned is that it is simply an attempt to return a card to a version expected by the original manufacturer. I actually judge this to be an even lesser argument as I think on it (not lesser people who say it, JUST the argument). Firstly, had these pieces of advertising been judged of such import to arrive in pristine condition they would have been packaged and available to the public differently. Most likely a give away on the top of the general store counter. If one also looks at the wide variety in printing quality re registration and oddities, un-like many who have been amazed that such pieces survived and that they must have been spirited away in the night by a daring printer's apprentice...I think it much more likely that such non-uniform examples would have been hugely plentiful amongst the tobacco packs and their relative scarcity is more due to people not saving an unaesthetic piece, rather than tobacco chiefs or printing CO's having great heartbreak over non-perfect product.<br />And so, a card that was meant to be handled and have its corners worn, or stuck in a book and have glue and paper damage from removal, or color outline around a players head from a son/daughters playing like - well, kids, and tobacco stains and caramel stains and boogers and whatever else...Well, it's ALL supposed to be there. That is the STORY of the card and its survival.<br /><br />So the fact you in your own home can now pretty up a card, does not automatically make it right. Or wrong. It just FEELS wrong to me.<br /><br />And finally, the analogy to other vintage collectables is interesting. I believe the greatest change in antiques in the last 15 years is the understanding that you don't screw with ORIGINAL condition. You don't wipe the patina off a deco lamp base, you don't refinish your revivalist furniture, you just leave it like it is. Where paintings come in, I believe is unique. Because they are exactly that - Unique. If there was only one of every sportscard made, then doing absolutely whatever you can to preserve it in good condition makes sense because there are no other exemplars for others to view or own. It's a very, very different fish. <br /><br /><br />Anyway, again, I have not singled anyone out as being less knowledgable for their opinion otherwise, I have not questioned their collecting reasoning, or been otherwise personally vindictive. It would be nice if others could handle their business in the same way.<br /><br /><br />Sincerely<br />Daniel Enright<br /><br /><br /><br />edited to remove the word sanctimonious, and replace it with overbearing. I really wish not to be as mean mouthed as others have chosen to be.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Wow....that took some time to read. One question...let's say you have an antique lamp in your living room. It's worth far more as an anique than a light but you use it anyway, because that's what lights were made for. Would you dust it off? regards
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>yes leon, with a dry lint free cotton rag (would not remove a spec of patina). kind of like blowing off the dust that had settled on your kalamazoo bats card you left out on the computer desk after basking in its glow all night......<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> and we all know how a computer sucks dust out of the air to settle all over it and everything around it.<br /><br />regards<br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It was just a question to establish a boundary. Had you said you had a problem with dusting it off it would have swayed my opinion a little bit. Everyone has a right to their opinion....take care
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Ahh, bugger. Leon, to think I was close to swaying your mind is like pomegranite from the garden of eden...or, some such fruit....sooooooo tempting.....<br /><br />daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>"who was bashing mastro's?"<br /><br />um, if i remember correctly 2 weeks, ago doug allen was on the hot seat and MANY people were upset about them "preparing" cards...<br /><br />whatever, point being, a line is being drawn here by collects saying, this is ok, but that is not...<br /><br />IMO, if you touch the card to better it from it's found condition, that's altering...
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If you found a scrapbook with cards glued in them you might rightly think that the glue would eat into the surface of the card and perhaps slowly destroy it over time. If you brought the scrapbook to a paper conservator, he would recommend carefully removing the cards, cleaning the paste off the back, and probably spraying them with a deacidifying solution to remove the acids. You would actually be doing a good thing because you would be taking active steps to preserve the cards for future generations. So in that scenario aren't you doing a good thing? Removing foreign substances off paper is a positive step, so why do some look at it so negatively? You have not altered anything, you have just removed harmful substances from the surface.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I guess Barry you just simply don't agree with the slippery slope theory.<br />I would rather lose, or have in really poor condition, one or three examples of a card because it hadn't been conserved proffesionally, than 20 botoxed examples all graded a 3-7 because one had ZERO ability to tell anyone else what they can do with their cards, when you yourself are happy to alter them in a fashion you find reasonable.<br /><br /><br />regards<br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>Women have the right to vote? Well, that sure explains a lot.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>a paper conservator working on the dead sea scrolls in a museum is one thing, but a collector "soaking" cards and pressing them to dry in the middle of a phone book, sounds a little more then "carefully removing cards, and spraying them with a solution"...<br /><br />spin it however you guys wish...but you know darn well that if you sent the card into SGC or PSA right out of the scrapbook, it would grade a "1"...but with your magic tricks they grade SGC 70's,,,and PSA 5's+...<br /><br />sounds like altering to me to achieve higher grades. and my point earlier was that this was the very thing that you guys gave doug allen a hard time about., "preparing" cards...and many of you are doing the same thing...i don't get it.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Daniel- I think we both agree that altering a card isn't an acceptable practice. But some types of glue have bad chemicals in them that over time will destroy the paper. By removing the glue you are actually doing a good thing, and I don't see where the card is being altered. If you were to ask the conservator to, for example, repair a tear, then I agree that is altering. I think we are just trying to define the term.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I gotta make sure I understand this.<br /><br />If I win a raw T206 on eBay, and the card arrives uninsured as is, and the post office has folded the envelope, lord have mercy, my T206 is folded in half. If I understand, for me to unfold and flatten out that card would be altering it. I would be changing the condition in which I found it, improving it. And I know SGC would grade it lower if I sent it in folded...<br /><br /><br />Hmnn..... I wounder what SGC would do if I mailed them in a T206 folded at a right angle. A) refuse to grade it, B) put it in a right angle slab graded authentic... or C) flatten him out and put him in a normal slab. Maybe someone should mail them such a card, just to find out what would happen. Or maybe try a T206 with the corner folded over.<br /><br />Unbelievable.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />It's not a slippery slope. If it was slippery, you'd expect to see SGC and PSA grading trimmed or color added cards by now -- but they don't. And they never will.<br /><br />The only sensible line drawing has to be a standard that can be enforced by the grading companies. That is, universally dedectable alterations are prohibited. You cannot have laws if you cannot discern when they were broken. If you are going to set rules, there must be a means of enforcement.<br /><br />As I expressed before, if you are upset by the knowledge that someone may have soaked a card off a scrap book page 50 years ago -- or 5 days ago -- then collecting vintage baseball cards is really not for you. Part of understanding the hobby is understanding the standards that have been applied to that hobby since the creation of that hobby. <br /><br />It may be that you want to change a set of standards -- that is well within your rights. But in order to develop a new set of standards, you need to have a measure of policing and enforcement. PSA and SGC have slabbed how many millions of vintage cards already? The ship has sailed on this issue. <br /><br />Some at SGC now want to use 'tweener grades to describe cards as 3.5 -- VG to VG-EX. They would be SGC 45's. But they are having trouble rolling out this concept out because they know they will be in for a royal sh*tstorm from all the people with SGC 40's that want to see if they can get a bump in grade. So, it turns out, the fact that they went with a 100 point scale didn't help them at all. They're now stuck because of the standard they used to apply to all of the cards they've already graded.<br /><br />And it is not the same as women voting. Say tomorrow they set up a technology for detecting whether a PSA 8 was once stuck on a piece of paper and water was used to dissolve the glue. Do you understanding how much money and resources it would cost for everyone that has already had their cards sent in to have to send them back in for a regrade? I'd be first in line to do it, if the standards of the community required it. But it would be very expensive for many. <br /><br />Change no matter the cost is essential when those changes are required to perfect universal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness -- be it gender equality or racial equality. But when it comes to collecting little pieces of cardboard, there is no Constitutional or public health justification for doing a massive recall of PSA or SGC cards based on the oft-used and widely accepted practice of using water to remove scrap paper. It just isn't the same thing.<br /><br />Paul
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[my point earlier was that this was the very thing that you guys gave doug allen a hard time about., "preparing" cards...and many of you are doing the same thing...i don't get it.]<br /><br />I'm not opposed to Mastro soaking cards and I don't think they have a duty to disclose it. I don't think that people have been on both sides of this issue. Can you point to two posts by the same person on both sides of this one?<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>"a card should be left un-tampered with...left exactly the way it was when you obtained it...i think Daniel hit it on the head, the paper damage on the back of a card, pulled from a scrapbook, is the price you pay for pulling it out...i have been collecting for 15 years and the thought of "touching" a card has never even crossed my mind..."<br /><br />Remember....you can have two types of cards pulled from scrapbooks. Cards with paper ADHERED to them that can be removed and cards with paper LOSS. If you don't simply rip them from the book, in many cases, you can soak the paper ADHERED to them off. I know you are vehemently opposed to this but as Dan said, it is WIDELY done. I would certainly not approve of ADDING something to the back of the card to repair the paper LOSS example.<br /><br />Check back through the last 3-4 years worth of Mastronet and Robert Edward auctions and see a few scrapbooks of T206's or other cards and see what they went for. Think those cards didn't get soaked out and ultimately either graded or sold? I distinctly remember a couple of those albums (because I bid on them as well) selling for $3-$5K or more.<br /><br />I'm sure the thought of the whole process--especially for the slabbemites--is very disconcerting. To think you have slabbed cards that were once soaked off paper or from an album eats at you. If you didn't have that knowledge and looked at the card and admired it, why would your whole life crash down WITH the knowledge that it had been soaked? <br /><br />Those with the thousands of graded cards should work diligently to get the PSA's and SGC's of the world to REJECT soaked cards if it runs so far against your ethics. Those entities must not be too concerned about soaking if they've allowed such cards to be encapsulated. Like was stated earlier, if you collect only 8's and above, the probability they've been soaked SHOULD be less than those in 4-6 holders. Most of the albums I've ever seen have been in VG-EX type condition. Nothing pristine. I'm sure those albums at one time may have existed though.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />As an aside....<br />Hopefully all those opposed to the practice of soaking or 'altering' cards would not consider lasix or plastic surgery or breast implants for their wives or anything that would alter any facet of their lives. Guess when you get that fender bender in your car, you just let it go to protect the integrity of the car. Oh...don't polish those silver tea services either. That oxidation should be left as is....
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think if one bought a scrapbook with cards glued in they would want to remove them simply because that is not how people collect. Nobody who collects today glues their T206's into albums- collectors want individual cards, whether they be raw or graded. It's such a basic thing to remove them. And if it isn't done right and there is some paper loss on the back, they all are going to grade poor. If on the other hand they are removed properly without causing damage, what is the harm? I still don't see how they are being altered. <br /><br />Comic books, for example, were made of the worst quality acidic paper imaginable. Given enough time, they are all likely to disintegrate. If they can be sprayed with a solution that removes the acid from the paper, the comic will survive significantly longer. Do people think that is a bad thing? Is that altering a comic, or preserving it?
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul and Barry,<br /><br />If I understand you arguments correctly, a large part of it is that people got away with restoring and altering cards in the past by soaking them, some or many of these have found there way into graded company holders, there is no way to detect if they have been soaked so we might as well continue on with the altering of cards in this manner.<br /><br />Sorry but I don't buy it. Just because alteration by soaking or removing creases or whatever has occurred in the past is no reason it should go on today. I come back to my argument that it is just wrong to alter these historical treasures and they should always be maintained in the same condition in which they were found.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>I can't believe we're now arguing about water. <br /><br />Reminds me of F. Lee Bailey's question to one of the detectives in the OJ trial: "Is it possible that you didn't see footprints that were invisible?" Dumb question then, dumb question now. <br /><br />"Is it possible that you don't see any effect of the card being dipped in water?" <br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Nuts...<br /><br />Soaking isn't ok becuase it has been done before, nor because it can't be detected. It is ok because it is ok! Who says stuff has to stay how it's found???<br /><br />One of the neatest things I've seen was a P-38 aircraft that was recovered from Greenland. Here's a link. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.thelostsquadron.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.thelostsquadron.com/</a><br /><br />So Jim, if I get a folded T206, is it taboo to unfold it?? <br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>No, Jim, you're actually saying it's okay to alter these historical treasures by adding glue to them and pasting them into scrapbooks. It's just not okay to remove these alterations with water. <br /><br />Is air okay? I'm sure you're okay with blowing dust off a card, but can you brush it off with your finger? Dust wasn't originally on the card, but neither was your finger, so you would just be altering the card more by brushing the dust off, right? <br /><br />Also, I don't think Jim said it, but I love the argument that it's okay to remove a card from a scrapbook as long as you tear it out and leave the back of the card in the scrapbook as the price you pay for removing it. Classic! <br /><br />-Ryan
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