Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>As I studied the National Pastime I decided that Ty Cobb was the greatest ball player ever.<br /><br />At some point I wondered if I was wrong, thinking maybe Babe Ruth was.<br /><br />But after reading The Glory of Their Times, and listening to the cds (what a treasure), and after more reading from the old days, I decided Honus Wagner was the best. I still think that.<br /><br />Seems that most here think Ruth was the best... This below is for those guys, from Today in Baseball... Obviously, some folks remain infatuated with the home run.<br /><br />1942 <br />Publisher A.J. Spink‚ in The Sporting News‚ reports on the result of a poll of 100 former major leaguers and managers as to who their choice is as best player of all time. Ty Cobb is the overwhelming pick‚ getting 60 of the votes cast. The remaining 42 votes are divided among 14 players: Honus Wagner(17): Babe Ruth (11); and Rogers Hornsby and Ross Youngs (2 votes each). The following players each received one vote: Lou Gehrig‚ Ed Delahanty‚ Tris Speaker‚ Joe DiMaggio‚ Mel Ott‚ George Sisler‚ Eddie Collins‚ Christy Mathewson‚ Walter Johnson‚ and Jerry Denny. Among those who reveal they voted for Cobb are Speaker‚ Collins‚ Sisler‚ Johnson‚ Al Simmons‚ Connie Mack‚ and Jack Coombs. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />I did not know who Jerry Denny was, so I looked him up. Do any of you recall hearing of him (before looking up his stats)?

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>Ruth was first a star pitcher, then the Bambino era followed. Should Ruth's extra credit for pitching land him in the top spot?<br /><br />But, everyone knows great pitching beats great hitting (vast majority of time). That said, who was the greatest pitcher?<br /><br />Satchell Paige not a bad vote.<br /><br />steve

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Posted By: <b>MurphyBrooks</b><p>Ruth. He was a dominant pitcher with two 20 win seasons under his belt by age 22, and probably would have made the HOF if he never hit a single home run. When he joined the Yankees, he not only hit more home runs than any other player in the early 20s, he hit more than any other team. You can argue Cobb or Wagner was a better hitter, but as an all around player, Ruth was greatest.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>By 1942 they'd seen Ruth pitch and hit... <br /><br />Look at the list of names who didn't vote Ruth first. A powerful endorsement of Cobb, and a solid denial of Ruth being first (even if you want him to be).

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>I'll vote for Ruth, if only to give Frank another chance to tell someone they're wrong.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>the difference between Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth was that Ty Cobb averaged one extra hit per forty at-bats.<br /><br />Babe Ruth got on base one more time than Ty Cobb per 25 plate appearances.<br /><br />Cobb was definitely much faster than Ruth...<br /><br />And the power aspect -- it is without comparison. Babe Ruth fundamentally transformed the game of baseball, whereas Cobb was "merely" the best hitter of all-time (although some here may argue that). Plus -- Ruth gave up a promising pitching career to play offense every day, and independent of their relative offenseive performances...you can look at Babe Ruth as being an integral part of the beginning of the NYY / Boston Red Sox rivalry, the oldest sports rivalry in this nation.<br /><br />Finally, Cobb has (whether deservedly or not) a sometimes unsavory reputation for his actions both on-and-off the field, including the Chalmers controversy, relentless mind games, and accusations of racism.<br /><br />Controversies are great -- but this is one of those topics where most of us can talk until we are blue in the face, but we will not persuade those on the other side of the fence....<br />

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>It is Ruth in my book, due to his hitting and pitching combined. Among many Early ballplayers I think there was a grudge held against Ruth for being the catalyst for "changing" the way the game was played. I think this hurt him more than anything else.<br /><br />When comparing Cobb and Wagner, I'm sorry but Cobb is just superior in so many ways, and I'm not sure how Wagner would get the nod. To be honest with you I even feel that Speaker, Lajoie were "better" than Wagner. In the Baseball card industry Wagner has achieved near legendary status when while he was a true legend of the game, and did win many more batting titles his statistics are pretty comparable to the vastly underrated Eddie Collins (how this guys stuff doesn't sell in the Lajoie or Speaker category is truly beyond me, maybe it is because he was an ugly dude?)<br />-Rhett

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Babe Ruth by far....<br /><br />You only need to look at one season to see<br /><br />1920 Babe Ruth 54 HRs<br /><br />1920 St. Louis Browns 50 HRs<br />1920 New York Giants 46 HRs<br />1920 Philadelphia A's 44 HRs<br />1920 Chicago White Sox 37 HRs<br />1920 Washington Senators 36 HRs<br />1920 Cleveland Indians 35 HRs<br />1920 Chicago Cubs 34 HRs<br />1920 St. Louis Cardinals 32 HRs<br />1920 Detroit Tigers 30 HRs<br />1920 Brooklyn Dodgers 28 HRs<br />1920 Boston Braves 23 HRs<br />1920 Boston Red Sox 22 HRs<br />1920 Cincinnati Reds 18 HRs<br />1920 Pittsburgh Pirates 16 HRs<br /><br />Only team to have more HRs than Ruth in 1920... Philadelphia Phillies 64 HRs.<br />He outhomered 14 of the 15 teams in MLB<br /><br />Plus he batted .376, with a .847 Slug%<br /><br />And a couple years before this he was the best Left Handed Pitcher of his era. And he broke the All Time Home Run Record 500+ times. And etc. etc.<br /><br />Babe Ruth was a living cartoon character.

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>During the era of inside baseball (the so-called "dead ball era), defense, speed, strategy, situational hitting, outright trickery, and other fine things that are hard to measure played a bigger role than they did in the 20's or thereafter. And from what I understand, a shortstop was a heck of a lot more important to the outcome of a game than he has been during the era of the home run. So I tend to give a lot of weight to those oldtimers who favor Wagner and try to measure that against Cobb's amazing record and Ruth's, too. As far as I'm concerned, trying to choose among the Big Three is like looking up at the Alps and trying to figure out which one of the peaks is highest. It's just hard to tell from here.

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Readdressing the Wagner/Cobb thing for a second. I seems that today that when Cobb and Wagner are included in the same set, they routinely sell for roughly the same amount of money, with Cobb maybe having the slight edge, but it is slight.<br /><br />When I first began collecting in the mid 1980's there was no doubt who was king, Cobb sold for more every time (except the t206, obviously). <br /><br />I found a copy of the 1981 The Sport Americana Baseball Price Guide a while back at a yard sale and I only bought it was because it was a great wrapper reference with tons of early wrappers in full color. But I can't help but look at the prices inside. 1919 Black Sox players like Cicotte, Weaver, Felsch, etc. listing as commons, Wagner cards listing for 1/2 those of Cobb and at roughly the same level as Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson. Joe Jackson listing for even less than them.<br /><br />It is only recently that Wagner card's not in the t206 set have attained the status within the hobby that they currently hold. <br /><br />-Rhett

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> This is one of my favorite topics to debate. I think, in large part, what makes it so interesting is that it's really hard to compare players from different eras. It would be great, also, if we had a lot of film to look at from the deadball era. Since, I've retired, I've done a ton of reading about the subject and collected a good deal of old baseball on video. I'm not big on relying overly on stats. With that said, I have a list of seven position players who I think are the best of all time: Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Mays, Wagner, Mantle, DiMaggio. I give Williams the consideration of the 5 years lost to military service; also, he was hindered by the distance to the right field stands at Fenway; and Joe D was shooting to the very deep distances in Yankee Stadium. Ruth, of course, had the short shot to right in the same park as Joe. Mays played too long and that hurt his stats. I give Mantle credit for playing injured for most of his career. Cobb's lifetime ave. is hard to ignore. Put Ted in Yankee Stadium and give him the 5 years and he'd be #1. Put Joe D in Fenway without the bad heels and he'd be #1 too. Give Joe Jackson the rest of his career and . . .

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>In my opinion Ruth was the greatest slugger and had the most innate ability of any player ever. However, none of us have ever seen Cobb or Ruth or Wagner play. The people who did thought Cobb was the best all around player ever and it is difficult to disagree. What is certain in my mind is that Cobb is currently the most underappreciated player.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I just don't want to hear revisionist (and incorrect) history that Barry Bonds was considered one of the top 5 players before he started using steroids, as he wasn't. That's an often repeated myth.

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> My father, who is 91, saw Ruth play.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron Conyers</b><p>Interesting topic... here is a article discussing this topic. Hopefully you can view the text it is a good read. This has been in my collection for some time now. Has a nice autograph as well.<br /><br /><img src="http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z57/aaroncerin/AllTimeBest.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"Babe Ruth fundamentally transformed the game of baseball, whereas Cobb was "merely" the best hitter of all-time "<br /><br />Babe Ruth just hit a lot of home runs. Ty Cobb transformed the whole game when he played. Opponents feared getting anywhere near him. He not only had the physical skills and the numbers to be feared, he psychologically intimidated his opponents. I do not want to take anything away from Ruth, but Cobb had a much larger effect on the actual play of the games he was in. There is a difference between saying, "Oh ****, is Ruth going to hit another home run." and a second basemean, or third baseman, or shortstop hoping he doesn't try to steal because they are scared.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>On the Glory of Their Times CD, there seemed to be a concensus among the players interviewed that Honus Wagner was by far the best player they have played with or against. When Wagner's contemporaries say he was the best they have ever seen, I think this has to hold a lot of weight.<br /><br />1. Honus Wagner<br />2. Babe Ruth<br />3. Willie Mays<br />4. Ty Cobb<br />5. Oscar Charleston<br />

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>I don't buy the "infatuated with the homerun" argument in the case of guy's like Ruth, Mays, Williams, etc. Ruth did everything.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Wesley, I agree... Wagner first. Based on what those guys said. But this article has me thinking of going back to Cobb.<br /><br /><br />By 1942 the 'voters' for TSN had seen all of Ruth, his pitching and home runs. They saw him out homer most of baseball, and change the way the game is played. They voted Cobb 1st. With Wagner strongly second over Ruth.<br /><br /><br /><br />And Rob D, I'll take that chance to say again you'd be wrong if you go with Ruth. I'd say that along with:<br /><br />Eddie Collins<br />Jack Coombs<br />Walter Johnson<br />Connie Mack<br />Al Simmons<br />George Sisler<br />Tris Speaker<br /><br />That is pretty solid company to be agreeing with... guys from that American League where the Bimbo, sorry, Bambino played.

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Ruth and Cobb were separated by only 8 years, they basically played in the same era. Wagner is from the dead ball era, but Cobb played only half his career in the dead ball era.<br /><br />Cobb batted .367 career (#1 all time), Ruth with his powerful swing and slower base running speed was only .025 behind Cobb at .342 (#7 all time).<br /><br />You could say Cobb intimidated other players with his dirty play, but no way did he intimidate the pitcher more than Ruth did at the plate. Ruth almost singlehandedly turned the Yankees of the 1920's - early 1930's into the best team of All Time, Cobb teams didnt come in first for his last 18 years in the league and might have lost more game than they won overall.<br /><br />MVP of All Time = Babe Ruth!

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>&lt;&lt;Babe Ruth just hit a lot of home runs. Ty Cobb transformed the whole game when he played. &gt;&gt;<br /><br />How can you say that, Jim? Babe had over 2,000 hits that were <i>not</i> home runs. As I said previously, from a hitting perpsective, their qualitative difference was that Cobb had one extra hit every forty-at-bats. To this day, Babe Ruth still has the tenth highest batting average of all-time. Just because he hit a lot of home runs does not take away what a brilliant hitter he was. And as I think others here have done more eloquently than I, Babe Ruth's power transformed the entire game of baseball -- helping teams focus on the something more important than simply getting on base. Yes, Babe Ruth made the home run the pinnacle of baseball -- but you can argue that slugging percentage, OPS, Runs Created, etc. are all statistics that exist today to assess relative offensive prowess....stastics that only serve to highlight, retrospectively, how phenomenally awesome Ruth was.

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Posted By: <b>LetsGoBucs</b><p>Well somehow replied to PSA .5's in the wrong thread and since I need to edit....<br /><br />I vote for Honus Wagner. And the reason - he played for the Pirates and I'm a Pirate fan.<br /><br />And he was the greatest shortstop ever, including in the field...with a glove that is small than some of the mittens I wore when I was three years old!!!<br /><br />The Flying Dutchman!!!!<br /><br /><br />I must admit though that Ruth has something that no one else is remotely close to - excellent pitcher and super great hitter. Its almost unbelievable.

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Posted By: <b>Eric Brehm</b><p>I think it is impossible to pick the "best" (most skilled) baseball player ever, because of the difficulty of comparing across eras. But Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, and Willie Mays stand out as clear choices for the best players of their respective eras. So I would pick them as the three best of all time. For players active today, perhaps Alex Rodriguez will ultimately go down in history the same way, but the era isn't over yet.<br /><br />In terms of the <i> greatest figure </i> of all time, the brightest star, the one who made the biggest and most lasting impact on the game and who symbolizes the game of baseball for everyone around the world, how could you pick anyone other than Babe Ruth.

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>The argument should me who is number two. Nobody is close to the Babe.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Of Cobb, Mays and Ruth it is notable that Mays was the only 5-tool player, in that he was by far the best fielder of the bunch.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>You cannot ignore the pitching. It makes him the most complete player ever. In my book a player who has top tier HOF stats in the field and had a HOF-potential career as a pitcher cannot be considered anything except the best to ever play the game. <br /><br />The argument that others voted Cobb or Wagner best so they must be best is a logical fallacy all too common in contemporary argument. Unless you know the basis for the votes and the qualifications of every voter, you have no idea what lays beneath the vote. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>Most of the time - <br /><br />Great pitching beats great hitting.<br /><br />Where are the votes for pitchers?<br /><br />Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, and my pick mentioned earlier - <br />Mr. Satchell Paige<br /><br />steve

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I agree with you. If Walter Johnson was the best pitcher, he has to be given due consideration.<br /><br />I actually think Rickey Henderson had the potential to be a top 5, perhaps top 3. He needed fewer injuries, more consistency and better fielding. <br /><br />I notice the 1998 Sporting News Top 100 went #1 Ruth, #2 Mays, #3 Cobb, #4 Johnson. I'll go along with that, if not in the exact order.<br /><br />Duly note that this 'Pre-Roids' list had Bonds at #34 (and Rickey Henderson at #51). I just get tired of people saying Bonds was considered one of the top 3 before he used PEDs, when he was not. Though this list obviously ranked him as an all-time great. It's also interesting that the poll lists Mark McGwire as #91, the list made just after his record year.

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Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>We all know the difficulty in comparing dead ball to live ball eras. But consider, Ruth has the distinction of shining in <b>both</b>. An incredible dead ball pitcher and an incredible live ball hitter (begs the questions: What if Ruth the pitcher faced Ruth the batter? Would the universe implode?) Except, he was so incredible as a dead ball hitter he'd already began the transition before the live ball era.<br /><br />It was good to see Al Simmons name on a list earlier in the thread. He had four consecutive years that would rival anybody. But if you then look at Ruth's stats...it's just mind boggling. If I was staring a team today, The Babe would be my first pick, for any era. He's a game-changer as a pitcher or a batter. My best chance to win.

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p><br /><br /><a href="http://ballhype.com/video/babe_ruth_vs_walter_johnson_1942_benefit_game_news reel/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://ballhype.com/video/babe_ruth_vs_walter_johnson_1942_benefit_game_news reel/</a>

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Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>There are valid reasons for all these picks but the only true five tool player of all these mentioned, and in my opinion the greatest player ever, is Willie Mays.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>I have nothing against Willie Mays. He's the only one of these players whom I ever saw and I think he is right up there. But if having 5 tools is the ticket, then I think that's an argument that helps Wagner in this contest.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>At the top, in the TSN recap, Al Simmons didn't receive a vote. He did get to vote himself, and he told TSN that he voted for Cobb.<br /><br />Almost the same thing for Walter Johnson... he received one vote, and he told TSN that he'd voted for Cobb.<br /><br /><br />Having seen all that Ruth could do, in 1942 the ballplayers voted for Cobb. 2 voted for a pitcher, one for Mathewson, one for Johnson. <br /><br />I don't think they were voting 'tools', or 'all around', and I'm fairly confident that most of them didn't care for Cobb as a person. But golly, when they vote for THE BEST PLAYER,<br /><br />60% Ty Cobb<br />17% Honus Wagner<br />11% Babe Ruth<br /> 2% Rogers Hornsby<br /> 2% Ross Youngs<br /><br />and 10 players got 1%, or one vote each.<br /><br />These guys hadn't seen Willie Mays... I saw him. A great player. But not The Greatest.

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Posted By: <b>Cashews</b><p>i feel like it has to be ruth. babe forever changed the game single handedly and was above and beyond any player anyone had ever seen. he added a whole new dimension to the game and was seen as a larger than life folk hero, a lot like mickey mantle but to a much larger degree. not only did he demolish pitching, but he excelled at it as well. so in my mind if you were talking about the greatest all around player to ever play the game there is no doubt that it has to be ruth.<br /><br />if we're purely talking about the greatest hitter to ever play the game then i don't think you can count out rogers hornsby or george sisler. sisler hit 400 twice with a high of 420 in 1922. that is absolutely incredible because it came after the dead ball era and matches cobb's high which came during it. hornsby hit 400 3 times in 4 years and in his prime was an incredible power hitter.<br /><br />if we're just talking about the greatest "hitter" in terms of batting prowess then i don't think you can ignore joe sewell. he was undeniably the greatest contact hitter ot all time and never struck out more than 20 times in a season.<br /><br />i love these discussions.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>You still don't know who they were, how they chose, or whether they were even mentally competent at the time of the vote. Some of these voters were the same tools responsible for HOFers Jesse Haines, George Kelly and Rabbit Maranville. Their current incarnations have given golden gloves to players who didn't even play 100 games at the position. Again, a vote isn't good for anything except picking the winner of the particular contest. If you want to prove a fact, argue facts, not someone else's interpretation of some unknown set of facts. <br /><br />Ruth and Williams are basically neck and neck as the most productive, non-druggie, hitters of all time. Ruth was a crisp fielder with a great arm and a HOF caliber pitcher. In his breakout performances at eah position he set the consective shutout innings record in the world series and hit more home runs by himself than any other team in the league. He was incomparable. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>I'd like to know who the two schnooks were that voted for Ross Youngs.

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Posted By: <b>Cashews</b><p>ross youngs was an unbeliveable player. he's one of my favorite anonymous HOFers. john mcgraw himself said he was the best outfielder he ever saw. youngs met a tragic end and died way too early. i liken him to addie joss and his tragic life.

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Babe!

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>I think it's Ruth over Cobb. Babe's OBP, slugging, RBI's, etc., are all better than Cobb's. <br /><br />If I had to pick 3 hitters:<br /><br />Ruth<br />Williams<br />Musial

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Posted By: <b>Phil Garry</b><p>I would go with Ruth, mainly because of the pitching/hitting combo like many others have stated.

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>First, I do not trust any poll taken now, or in 1942. A poll can be conducted (or manipulated) to achieve any desired result.<br /><br />With that said....Honus Wagner was an active part of the Baseball scene till 1951 as a Coach for Pittsburgh. He was obviously,<br /> a great all-around player; and, a very gregarious fellow. He would light up a cigar and "hold court" with the Pirates' players (or<br /> with the Sports media). Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth were out of the Baseball scene for many years by 1942. People's memories grow<br /> dim; so, one could imagine that Wagner was still fresh in their minds. In recent years, he is remembered more for his "mythical"<br /> T206 card than his baseball career.<br /><br />Comparing Cobb and Ruth, all I can say is that during Ruth's pitching years (1914-1919), Mr. Cobb did not fare too well batting<br /> against this young Southpaw. And, you can compare their statistics till you turn "blue". However, from a Team's standpoint,<br /> the following statistic tells the story of why Ruth is the "Greatest"......besides his prodigious HR's.<br /><br />During his playing years (1918-1935), Ruth produced on an average 2.3 RUNs per GAME (scored, or driven in). Ruth consistently<br /> did this day in and day out for 18 years. Just imagine the opposing teams, knowing that they had to score at least 3 runs every<br />day, just to overcome this "Ruth Factor". This a significant statistic that shows the true value of a player to his team; and, no<br /> other BB player compares with Ruth on this score....it is the best in the history of the game.<br /><br />A sportswriter once pointed out to Ruth "that Cobb was the better hitter, since he batted .367". To which Ruth resplied with.....<br /><br />"You know, I could bat .370 if I wanted to, but you see all these people sitting in the stands, they didn't come out here to see <br />me hit Singles....they came here to see me hit Home Runs".<br /><br />In the 20th Century, America was blessed with these three great human beings......<br /><br />TEDDY ROOSEVELT<br /><br />THOMAS ALVA EDISON<br /><br />and <br /><br />GEORGE HERMAN RUTH

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Shouldn't this thread really be "Greatest MAJOR LEAGUER ever" instead of greatest "player"?<br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>The original dimensions of Yankee Stadium when it was opened in 1923 were larger than the dimensions in the post-war era.<br />Here are the distances to the stands in the 1920's....<br /><br />281.....LF foul line<br /><br />400.....Left-left Center<br /><br />460.....Left-center Center<br /><br />490.....Center Field<br /><br />430.....Right-center Center<br /><br />370.....Right-right Center<br /><br />295.....RF foul line<br /><br /><br />To sluggers, like Ruth and Mantle no distance was long enough. Ruth's longest HR was measured to be 600 feet and Mantle's<br /> longest HR was measured to be 565 feet.<br /><br />Anyhow, I fully agree with you regarding Ted Williams....he was one of my favorites when I was a kid.<br /><br /><br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>I saw most of Willie Mays' career and I never thought he was even the best player of his time. He is another guy who, like fine wine, has improved with age. The played 22 years so his aggregate numbers are impressive. However, in his 22 seasons he hit under .300 in 12. He averaged 86 RBIs per seasons along with 35 HRs and 15 stolen bases. Obviously a great player but very far from the best ever.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>George Herman "Babe" Ruth<br /><br /><br />next question...

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>compare his peak and his career numbers to anyone and I think you will be surprised at how strongly he matches up.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Yeah, those two 20 win seasons (exactly 20 in each) really blow you away. Maddux is definitely great, but even if you're just comparing peak years, Pedro was far better than Maddux. Neither belongs in the discussion of who was the greatest pitcher ever. <br /><br />But "best peak years" and "greatest pitcher ever" are not the same thing. Otherwise, most would consider Sandy Koufax the greatest pitcher ever. <br /><br />To be clear, are you actually saying that Greg Maddux is better than Walter Johnson? <br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Jason- do you happen to live in the state of Georgia, by any chance?<br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>...led the league in hitting 11 times, slugging percentage 8 times, on base percentage 7 times, on base + slugging percentage 10 times, hits 8 times, doubles 3 times, triples 4 times, Home Runs once, RBI 4 times, and stolen bases 6 times. .366 lifetime BA and 4000 hits.<br /><br />In 1909, Cobb led the league in batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, runs, hits, total bases, home runs, RBI, and stolen bases. And he obviously won the Triple Crown.<br /><br />I'm not sure anyone has ever had a year as relatively good as Cobb's 1909.

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Ruth.....1921<br /><br />AB's.......540<br />Hits.......204<br />BB's.......144<br />HR's.........59<br />Runs......177<br />RBIs.......171<br />BAvg.... .378<br />SAvg.... .846<br /><br />No comparison, JEFF.....forget Cobb.....Ruth is the man....he is the GREATEST.<br /><br />Ruth had 2873 Hits....and, if he wasn't WALKED 2056 times (all-time BB record), perhaps he would have had 4000 hits.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Kenneth A. Cohen</b><p>Though good arguments can be made for either, when you consider Ruth's run production PLUS his pitching (he has as many career shutouts as Pedro Martinez), Ruth is the clear choice in my view.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>No question that Ruth's numbers surpass Cobb's; however, Cobb played in a different era (granted Ruth singlehandedly created the HR era). Finishing first in steals and HRs in the same year is a pretty amazing feat -- along with winning the Triple Crown.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>To be clear, my thinking is still that Wagner was the best player of all time.<br /><br /><br />This 1942 Sporting News thing was seeking the opinion of 100 former players and managers. I don't know who they all were. I'd think their mental faculties at the time would have been ok, I don't think they were any more addle-minded than we here are now. TSN was asking about who the BEST PLAYER was, ever. <br /><br />I perceive Walter Johnson as the greatest pitcher ever. Walter pitched to Cobb, Ruth, and Wagner. In 1942 Johnson voted Cobb the best player all time.<br /><br />As I stated at the start, I first thought Cobb the best, then after several years I considered Ruth the best. Now I think that Wagner was the best. The stats folks look at are deceptive... but if you go by what contemporary baseball men thought, that seems more meaningful. I still think Wagner the best, but this 1942 TSN think has me leaning back to Cobb.<br /><br /><br />You have to know that TSN isn't asking a bunch of knuckleheads on a baseball card board who was the best. The were asking many current and soon to be HOFers... Connie Mack, Walter Johnson, Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins... 60 guys of that caliber voted for Cobb. Put your record books down and ask if the Babe was the best, why are they voting for Ty? It isn't because he was a good friend of theirs. Maybe Ty was the best. Not the best home run hitter. Not the best pitcher + player. Not the biggest personality. Maybe not the best stats. Just the best player.

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Gee, Frank, you're brandishing the TSN poll like it's the definitive answer to a question that really can't be answered.<br /><br />One flaw in putting all your eggs in the TSN-poll-basket is that many of the players you cite either broke into the majors during the dead-ball era and/or played the majority of their careers in that era. Given the fact that Ruth was a threat to that style of play and pretty much single-handedly changed the way the game was played -- or at least provided another successful style of playing baseball -- and Cobb epitomized the dead-ball era, is it really a surprise that your all-knowing collection of baseball people would pick Cobb over Ruth?<br /><br />I'm not even debating whether Ruth or Cobb or Wagner should receive your mythical title of "best ever." All I'm suggesting is you don't rely so much on one poll conducted more than 60 years ago that obviously has its flaws to try to prove your point.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Rob D, since I've read Puddin' Head Wilson, I like his logic, to which you refer... but I'm not sure you knew that you were.<br /><br />Still, I pick Wagner. <br /><br />Having said that, if we dug up and revived these antiquated deadball ballplayers, and accepting that they might have a deadball bias against the home run, and therefore against Ruth (although I don't consider Simmons or Sisler deadball era players), I think if we asked them today, 60% of them vote for Cobb. I'd still choose Wagner. But I'd think those guys like Connie Mack would be more authoritative than we happy few here. Yet it reassures me that most of the folks here think differently than those guys did in 1942. For me, I think Walter Johnson would be a better judge of who was the 'best player'.<br /><br /><br /><br />Maybe I drop the Greatwake moniker, and change it to The Spoon. Since I seem to occasionally stir things a bit.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><i>I think if we asked them today, 60% of them vote for Cobb.</i><br /><br />Now you're using some fine logic, Frank.<br /><br />Not to change the subject, but what are your feelings toward graded cards? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jim T</b><p>Best Player - Babe Ruth, his stats and his contribution to his team make it pretty simple.<br /><br />Greatest Player - Jackie Robinson, his contribution to the game of baseball make this a no brainer.

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Here is Cobb's All-Time Team:<br /><br />C - Mickey Cochrane and Ray Schalk<br />1b - George Sisler<br />2b - Eddie Collins<br />SS - Honus Wagner<br />3b - Pie Traynor<br />OF - Joe Jackson<br />OF - Babe Ruth<br />OF - Tris Speaker<br />Right Handed Pitchers (4) Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Ed Walsh and Pete Alexander<br />Left Handed Pitchers ( 2) - Eddie Plank and Lefty Grove<br /><br />Not a bad team !!!!

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>In 1935-36 The Baseball Writers Association of American devised a formula to elect the greatest players of all-time for the Hall of Fame (opened in 1939). These included players from 1901 to the present. This is right after the Babe was done playing. After the dead ball era had been replaced with the home run. Players had to be named on 75% of the ballots. The maximum number of votes available was 226.<br /><br />Cobb received 222 votes,Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner each received 215 votes, Christy Mathewson received 205 votes and Walter Johnson 189 votes.<br /><br />Even after all the home runs etc. they still gave Cobb the most votes. He must have been great and something to see. All the above 5 must have been something to see in person.

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>For all that HITTING and RUNNING, how come Cobb is no where near Ruth in producing that most important STAT....RUNS ?<br />For example, let's compare their best year....check-out their RUNs + RBIs.<br />Ruth's dominance in this department is true for any year you choose.<br /><br />You guys can have Cobb on your team....I'll take Ruth on my team....and, my team will beat your team every time. <br /><br />...............Ruth (1921)........Cobb (1911)<br /><br />AB's............540..................591<br />Hits............204..................248<br />BB's............144....................44<br />HR's..............59.....................8 (deadball era)<br />Runs...........177..................147<br />RBIs............171..................144<br />BAvg......... .378................ .420<br />SlAvg........ .846................ .621<br />Stol Bases.....17....................83<br /><br /><br />T-Rex TED

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ted, the numbers don't lie obviously. But why did so many of their contemporaries claim that Cobb was the better player?

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Jim Creighton probably used to be considered the greatest player ever at one time. Just like Anson or Delahanty after Creighton. Just like Cobb after that. Then came Ruth, unfortunately for Cobb. And that was that. <br /><br />If you disagree with Creighton, Anson or Delahanty having been considered the greatest ever, I'm sure you can still understand my point. Replace those guys with whoever you want. Then Cobb came along. And then Ruth. <br /><br />Ted brings up a point that everyone seems to ignore when discussing the greatest players. Ted's team of 9 Ruth's would definitely beat a team of 9 Cobbs because Ty Cobb was not a winner. Babe Ruth was. And not just because he was on the Yankees. Your Cobb team would have a higher batting average, though. So congrats. But you still lost. And don't try to tell me how terrible Cobb's teams were and how it wasn't his fault and blah blah blah. Replace Cobb with Ruth and there are several Tiger championships that would have materialized in all those years. Walter Johnson won a championship with the lowly Washington Senators, after all. <br /><br />Personally, I don't even consider Cobb to be the greatest player of his era because of that Wagner guy.<br /><br />If Cobb was such a great competitor, why didn't he win? He won lots of batting titles and had great personal accomplishments. But I thought he was playing for a team. In team sports, the objective is to win. Maybe Cobb should have been a boxer or a tennis player or a golfer. That way he would have won when he performed better as an individual than his opponent, also an individual. <br /><br />I'm also shocked at how diverse Cobb's picks on his all-time team were. You usually don't hear Cobb being described as tolerant or open-minded, but the melting pot he's thrown together with his picks tells the real story. Cobb's team has fat white guys, skinny white guys, white guys with blonde hair, white guys with brown hair, white guys with freckles, alcoholic white guys, white guys who like to gamble, white guys who like to go to church, and everyone in between. You name it, this team has it. With such a crazy mix of different kinds of people I think his team name would have to be "TY COBB'S RAINBOW COALITION."<br /><br />The answer to the original question, of course, is Babe Ruth. <br /><br />Oh, and my team of 9 Martin Dihigos would absolutely crush your team of 9 Ruths or Cobbs or any other player in the history of the game. <br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Good question....and, my uncomplicated answer is....just look at who voted....<br /><br />Collins‚ Coombs, Johnson‚ C. Mack‚ Sisler‚ Speaker, etc. For the most part, all these guys were Cobb's contemporaries.<br />They regarded Ruth as an "upstart", a new generation player that didn't fit the old "deadball" era mold. His prodigious HR's<br />were not yet quite fashionable.<br /><br />And yes, they did vote in 1942; however, these "oldies" had a mindset "stuck" back in early the 20th Century game. And,<br />nothing since then was going to change their thinking.<br /><br />It's like me, here we are in the 21st Century....but, in my mind the greatest Baseball that I ever saw was played in the<br /> late 1940's, thru the 1950's, and into the 1960's. Think about this, I bet you that when you reflect back to your youth,<br /> you probably think a better calibre of BB was played back then, than is now ?<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Thanks for making my point in quite a "dramatic" way.<br /><br />As a Softball team manager (at my workplace) for many years, I always tried to field a winning team. I had some tough decisions<br /> to make. Most of my players were my upper management types, with big egos and certainly having an influence on my career at<br /> my job.<br /><br />Of course everyone wanted to win, and everyone wanted to play, and then go to our favorite "watering-hole" and have some cold <br />beers. I was very diligent in keeping Stats on all my players. So to be fair, I would grind their numbers every week and play the guys<br /> who were producing in terms of RUNS (scored and driven in). I was called a "Billy Martin" by some, but they accepted my managing<br /> practices.<br /> After all, it paid off, we won 1st place Trophies 6 out of 10 years.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>I don't buy the argument that Ruth was better than Cobb because "Cobb was not a winner". Ted Williams never won a championship, so I guess he wasn't a winner either. Ernie Banks ... not a winner. Arod, Killebrew, McCovey? Charles Barkley? Elgin Baylor? Stockton/Malone? Barry Sanders? Marino? Nope none of them are/were winners.<br /><br />Its a team sport - 9 vs 9. I don't think you're a "winner" because you win a championship, nor are you NOT a winner because you don't win one. Even with the incredible stats that Barry Bonds put up - better than RUTH! - he still didn't win. Is it cuz he's not a winner? Or maybe cuz the other 8 guys on the field just weren't as good as the opposing 9 players. If Bonds was on a team w/great pitching and they won a championship we wouldn't necessarily be calling him a winner, we'd still be calling him a cheater.<br /><br />why does today still feel like a monday?<br /><br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Wasn't Ruth something like 6-2 against Mathewson? ERA under 2? Not too shabby for the greatest slugger of all time.<br /><br />Remember nostalgia for the dead ball era was a lot higher back then when these polls were conducted. It's kind of like how we yearn for the pre-roids era. The people voting probably remembered the game from when they were children, and favored that style of play over the big-bopper style that Ruth himself created. Just hypothetical on my part, but it's always easier to see historical significance the further away you are from something. So yeah... to them Wagner probably WAS the best. <br /><br />No one will ever match Ruth in baseball, or any other sport for that matter. Period. <br />He changed the history of the game by himself, and to some extent, the history of our country.<br /><br />EDITED: MEANT WALTER JOHNSON, NOT MATHEWSON.

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Rob, <br /><br />It is obviously not as black as white as saying anyone who wins a championship is a winner and anyone who doesn't is a loser. It takes a special player to actually qualify as a loser, because we're talking about some of the greatest athletes in the history of team sports here. A player's career should be evaluated in the proper context, meaning it is not right to compare Ernie Banks to Alex Rodriguez. For example, the players you mentioned who didn't win championships are all different: <br /><br />TED WILLIAMS - You are exactly right. Ted Williams is not a winner. A Loser? No. Great hitter? Absolutely. In the top 2 or 3 ever to swing a bat. Winner? Not so much. He had a chance to step up when it mattered and he flat out choked. All because of his classic Ted Williams stubbornness, which I love. But it cost him AND HIS TEAM the World Series. Of course, there's no guarantee the Red Sox would have won the '46 series if he could have swallowed his pride and bunted a few times and slapped a few singles to left instead of hitting directly into the shift. In the 1946 regular season, Ted Williams hit .342 with 38 HRs and 123 RBI. His on base percentage was .497. His slugging percentage was .667. He was the MVP of the American League. In the World Series he hit .200 with zero HRs and 1 RBI. His slugging percentage was .200. Yes, 5 singles in 25 ABs. And what impact do you think it had on the rest of the Red Sox for them to watch that happen? Not exactly clutch. So, yes, Ted Williams gets knocked down quite a bit for that when I look at his career. And I'm a Ted Williams fan. Which is saying something considering how much I hate all things Red Sox. <br /><br />BARRY BONDS: Gets knocked down huge in my eyes for his early playoff performances. Almost entirely redeemed himself with the greatest postseason performance in my lifetime and probably off all-time. Still, is he a winner? No. Not a loser, either. <br /><br />ERNIE BANKS - Come on, now. Just bad teams. <br /><br />BARRY SANDERS - (see Ernie Banks)<br /><br />HARMON KILLEBREW - Exactly which of those Senators/Twins teams are you saying should have won the World Series?<br /><br />WILLIE MCCOVEY - Exactly which of those Giants teams are you saying should have won the World Series?<br /><br />CHARLES BARKLEY - He had bad luck on several fronts. His best 76ers teams were in his first year or two in the league where he wasn't even the "Go To" guy yet because Moses Malone was still there. After that, exactly which 76ers team are you saying should have won the championship? Then when he was finally on a good team, he became one of the many victims of Michael Jordan's Bulls. He was still incredible, though. He had a chance with Houston at the end of his career, but once again, more Jordan. I do not fault Barkley at all for not winning a championship. Ditto for Allen Iverson in his 76ers career. <br /><br />ELGIN BAYLOR - He averaged 27 points and 12.9 rebounds per game in 134 career playoff games. As impressive as that is, he was on championship-caliber teams for most of his career and never won, although he did play 9 games for the 1971-72 Lakers who eventually won the championship. All the players on those Lakers teams get knocked down a bit. All of them, including Baylor, also get a partial break for being victims of the Celtics dynasty. <br /><br />STOCKTON/MALONE - Winners? No way! In spite of playing in the Jordan era, they were together long enough and on enough good teams that they should have won at least one championship. <br /><br />DAN MARINO - Bad teams. When they were good, it was all because of him. That just wasn't enough, though. I don't blame Marino for not winning the Super Bowl. <br /><br />ALEX RODRIGUEZ - I really can't believe you brought Arod into this discussion. He is the only true loser of the players you mentioned. I could go on, but just do a Net54 search and you'll probably be able to figure out my true feelings regarding the biggest loser in the history of organized sports. Actually, throw unorganized sports in there as well. There's only one Alex Rodriguez. <br /> <br />So, Rob, judging by your list of winners, I take it you consider talent to be the determining factor as opposed to actual winning? Does that mean you consider The Professor, Hot Sauce, and Skip To My Lou to be winners as well? <br /><br />In case you're curious, what I mean by a winner is someone more like Joe Montana, Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Derek Jeter, and so on. A little less like Alex Rodriguez and a little more like Jerry Rice or Magic Johnson. <br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>well written response, Ryan. <br /><br />I guess I'm questioning the idea of what a "winner" is, and I think many of the players who we deem "winners" benefit from having talent on their team. Jordan, Montana, Ruth, etc all played with talent on their team. If Montana played on the same Dolphins teams that Marino played on (no defensive talent like Ronnie Lott, no running game like Roger Craig), and didn't win a superbowl, would we still call Montana a winner? <br /><br />I agree ... Arod is not a winner. Nor is everyone w/talent a winner. But WHAT IS a winner? Is winning a championship one qualification of being termed a winner? Is being a nice guy, giving back to the community, being a good teammate, talking to the media also necessary?<br /><br />No, I wouldn't call The Professor, Hot Sauce, etc winners necessarily (nor would i call them all losers), but they are certainly fun to watch!<br /><br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>I am most intrigued with Ruth's pitching career with Boston. <br /><br />In the AL, he must have pitched head-head with Walter Johnson, yes? And he pitched against Cobb on Detroit. And I saw something that said he went head-head with Mathewson, although Matty was NL.<br /><br />I would love to see ALL of these particular head-head game stats individually, perhaps the box scores?<br /><br />Any guidance for research, or even answers?<br /><br />Thanks, steve<br /><br />edited - above post, Ruth was 6-2 vs Matty head-head. Really, WOW!

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>STEVE<br /><br />I don't know where that 6-2 number comes from. They never faced each other in World Series play.<br /> Here are their W.S. pitching records....<br /><br />Mathewson<br /><br />............W-L......ERA.......IP<br /><br />1905......3-0......0.00......27<br /><br />1911......1-2......2.00......27<br /><br />1912......0-2......1.57......28<br /><br />1913......1-1......0.95......19<br /><br />Ruth<br /><br />1916......1-0......0.64......14<br /><br />1918......2-0......1.06......17<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Sorry bout that typo above (I'll fix)... I meant Walter Johnson not Mathewson... typed it a little too quickly before I had my coffee. Here's a very telling stat about Mr Ruth and him abusing Johnson both on the mound and at the plate: from Wiki<br /><br />Ruth had unusual success against Washington Senators star pitcher Walter Johnson, beating him four times in 1916 alone, by scores of 5-1, 1-0, 1-0 in 13 innings, and 2-1. Johnson finally outlasted Ruth for an extra-inning 4-3 victory on September 12; in the years to come, Ruth would hit 10 home runs off Johnson, including the only two Johnson would allow in 1918-1919.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Steve... full context of Ruth's pitching days...<br /><br />Ruth appeared in five games for the Red Sox in 1914, pitching in four of them. He picked up the victory in his Major League debut on July 11; ironically, Duffy Lewis scored the winning run after pinch-hitting for Ruth. The Red Sox had many star players in 1914, so Ruth was soon optioned to the minor league Providence Grays of Providence, Rhode Island for most of the remaining season. Behind Ruth and Carl Mays, the Grays won the International League pennant.<br /><br />During spring training in 1915, Ruth secured a spot in the starting rotation. He joined a pitching staff that included Rube Foster, Dutch Leonard, and Smokey Joe Wood. Ruth won 18 games,[10] lost eight, and helped himself by hitting .315. He also hit his first four home runs. <br /><br />In 1916, after a slightly shaky spring, he went 23-12, with a 1.75 ERA and 9 shutouts. On June 27, he struck out 10 Philadelphia A's, a career high. On July 11, he started both games of a doubleheader, but the feat was not what it seemed; he only pitched a third of an inning in the opener because the scheduled starter Rube Foster was having trouble getting loose. Ruth then pitched a complete game victory in the nightcap. The Red Sox made it to the World Series again. They defeated the Brooklyn Robins four games to one. This time Ruth made a major contribution, pitching a 14-inning complete-game victory in Game Two.<br /><br />Ruth went 24-13 with a 2.01 ERA and 6 shutouts in 1917, and hit .325, but the Sox finished second, nine games behind the Chicago White Sox. Ruth's most memorable game of the season was one he had very little part in playing. On June 23 against the Washington Senators, after walking the leadoff hitter, Ruth erupted in anger, was ejected, and threw a punch at the umpire (he'd be suspended for 10 games). Ernie Shore came into the game as an impromptu replacement, and pitched a perfect game the rest of the way. Ruth's outburst was an example of self-discipline problems that plagued Ruth throughout his career, and is regarded as the primary reason (other than financial) that Frazee was willing to sell him to the Yankees two years later.<br /><br />Less than three weeks later, June 11 was an example of why Ruth was so valuable to Boston. The left-hander was pitching a no-hitter in a 0-0 game against the Detroit Tigers, before a single deflected off his glove in the 8th inning. Boston finally pushed across a run in the 9th, and Ruth held onto his 1-0 victory by striking out Ty Cobb. In 1942, Ruth called this game his greatest thrill on the field.<br /><br />In 1918, Ruth pitched in 20 games, posting a 13-7 record with a 2.22 ERA. He was mostly used as an outfielder, and hit a league-leading 11 home runs. His statistics were curtailed slightly when he walked off the team in July following an argument with Boston's manager.<br /><br />Ruth threw a 1-0 shutout in the opener of 1918 World Series, then won Game Four in what would be his final World Series appearance as a pitcher. In three games, Ruth was 3-0 with an 0.87 ERA, allowing 19 hits in 31 innings. Ruth extended his World Series consecutive scoreless inning streak to 29⅔ innings.

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>Dave, Thanks, great read. steve

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Posted By: <b>Louis Bollman</b><p>It has to be Ruth; just open up the Baseball Almanac. Legue leading stats are printed in bold type. Ruth's stats show a sea of bold print. The fact that I like the most is that after nearly a decade of being off the mound Ruth pitched and won in 1930 and again in 1933.<br /><br />For the Ross Youngs bashers; the guy started playing early and died young. He could have easily played another 5+ years. A fierce hitter and a menace on the basepath, not to mention his tremendous stats in the field.<br /><br />I was unaware of Ross Youngs' stats until someone just recently pointed them out.<br /><br />Louis Bollman

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Actually, it's not Ruth or Cobb -- it's the entire lineup of the 2008 Detroit Tigers. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Look at the stats.<br />1915 and 1916 were great years on the mound for Ruth.<br />By 1917 he was walking nearly as many as he was striking out.<br />After 1917 he never struck out more than he walked.<br />He was winning, and his ERA was down; but I wonder how long that would have lasted.<br />Look at the stats.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>It was I that "bashed" Ross Youngs (actually I was bashing the two voters who chose Youngs as the best ever). I know that he was an outstanding player (football as well as baseball) but if any reasonable argument can be made that he was the greatest pre-war player ever I would sure like to hear it.<br /><br />Howard<br />

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Posted By: <b>Craig W</b><p>Along the same lines as Ted posted above, I like to use a stat called Run Production Rate (RPR). Add Runs Scored and Runs Batted In. Subtract Home Runs, since they count as both a Run and an RBI. Then divide by Plate Appearances.<br /><br />Ruth's Career RPR was (2174+2217-714)/10616 = 0.3464 So, The Babe would produce a run every 2.89 times he came to the plate.<br /><br />Cobb's career RPR was (2246+1937-117)/13072 = 0.3110 The Georgia Peach "only" produced a run every 3.22 times he came to the plate.<br /><br />In other words, Ruth was over 11% better at producing runs than Cobb.<br /><br />(note- career stats taken from www.baseball-reference.com)<br /><br />Regards,<br />Craig<br />

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>I would not even rate Cobb next to Ruth. In my opinion Cobb is overrated.....and, his cards are overpriced.<br /><br />My 2nd choice for the greatest is a tie between Wagner and Anson. Like Ruth....Adrian Constantine Anson<br /> was a winner.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/anson162.jpg"><br /><br />He played 1st base for most of his 22 year career with Chicago (NL). In 1879, at the young age of 27,<br /> he became their Manager. During his 22 years of being the player/manager, his Chicago team won the<br /> NL Championship 1880, 1881, 1882, 1885 and 1886. Also, they came in 2nd place in 1883, 1888, 1890,<br /> and 1891.<br /><br />His career Stats......Hits = 3041.....HRs = 96.....BA = .334.......in 1884 he hit an amazing 21 HRs.<br /><br />I certainly want Anson on my team. He is a real winner. So far, I have Ruth in RF.....Wagner at SS.....<br />and Anson at 1B.<br /><br />T-Rex TED

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>To your....."He was winning, and his ERA was down; but I wonder how long that would have lasted."<br /><br />By 1918, Ruth was doing double duty, he pitched in 20 games and played the field in 72 games; and,<br /> this had to affect his pitching performance. But, we will never know, had Ruth continued as a pitcher,<br /> if he would have made the enormous impact on BB that he did as a player.<br /><br />We can thank Miller Huggins (while Manager of St Louis, NL 1913-17) who had a keen eye for talent,<br /> and scouted Ruth from his start. Upon becoming Manager of the Yankees (1918), Huggins convinced<br /> Ruppert and Houston to acquire Ruth. Huggins instantly converted Ruth to an outfielder.<br /><br /> Ruth's first 3 years as a Yankee were played at the Polo Grounds (1920-22), which had a very short<br /> distance to the RF stands. He instantly changed the game forever, by his HR hitting of 54, 59 and<br /> 35 (110 games)....respectively.<br /><br />The WWI shortened 126-game BB season in 1918......followed up by the 1919 World Series scandal,<br /> brought attendance down by the start of the 1920 season. Ruth's dramatic performance in 1920<br /> significantly revived the game. Fans flocked to major league ballparks in enormous numbers again.<br /><br />T-Rex TED<br /><br />