What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>I sold a card to someone on the B/S/T forum several weeks ago and it appears as though the card has been lost or delivered to the wrong address or misplaced by someone in their household or complex. I'm speculating but it should have certainly arrived by now and hasn't. I saved the shipping receipt to show that I did indeed send the card, I always save my shipping receipts from transactions. The buyer never asked that I purchase insurance for the card or asked for delivery confirmation, though I feel bad I didn't ask him if he wanted it. This has never happened to me before and I'm not sure what the proper thing to do is. On the one hand I feel bad that the card has potentially been lost, but on the other I don't really want to refund the purchase because then I'm out of a card and the money I sold it for. What is the proper thing to do? Is it just something that happens from time to time and the buyer takes the loss?

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Is the other party invovled a well known member here?<br /><br /><br />How much was the transaction for?

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Since the package wasn't insured, did you establish before you sent it who would be bearing the risk?

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Addie - is what you have a receipt that you paid for postage or proof that the item was actually shipped?

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>It was for 150 dollars.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Its a shipping receipt which is proof of the shipment of the package, not a postage receipt.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Addie - how do you get a "shipping receipt"? When I mail something with USPS (without registered mail, insurance or delivery confirmation) all I get is a receipt I paid for the postage. Is that a special service you can request for a fee?

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>What day was it shipped? Some of my packages take 10 days to 2 weeks but they get to their destination.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>I shipped at Sporting life wrapper to Scott B. on Nov. 15 2007...he got it around Jan 17 2008.<br /><br />I had a delivery confirmation though and was able to track it.<br /><br />Edited to say: i would refund the $ and have an agreement that if it shows up, you get the $150 back. that seems fair.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Anthony N.</b><p>In my opinion it's the buyers responsibility to get payment to the seller, and the sellers responsibility to get the merchandise to the buyer. I always include insurance (and delivery confirmation/signature confirmation if paid via paypal, per their rules) as part of the shipping cost. It's there to protect me, but is part of the transaction and is a cost covered by the buyer.<br /> When shipping is included in the price/offer I still always include insurance.<br /> If you're doing a lot of selling you might consider using collect insure to cover it. Sorry this has happened to you.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>I would say for $150 the seller should take the hit. Unless in your for sale post you specifically said this price doesn't include insurance, etc. If you put in there $150 for this card then I'd expect I'm going to get that card for $150..and if I don't i'm going to expect you'll compensate me for that. <br /><br />If you didn't bother with insurance or even spend 60 cents on a delivery confirmation...how can you blame someone at the other party's house for possibly taking it? The insurance or at least a d.c. is there to protect you as well as a buyer.<br /><br /><br />It always helps to spend an extra $1.65 and have $100 insurance thown on it...you woudln't believe how more likely your package would arrive.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>This recently happened to me on an item. I purchased something ($50) and it was sent without insurance and we had no agreement as to insurance. I know the seller is honest. We agreed to split the difference. I was refunded $25.00. I felt it fair becuase I never asked for insurance even though the seller never asked me if I wanted it. Certainly when you are in the hobby as long as we all are, I know that insurance exists and don't feel like it is always the sellers job to ask me if I want it. I could easily have spoken up and said I am giving you an extra $1.50 to insure this.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>On a related note, I am still waiting for a package sent to me registered mail 11 days ago. How long can registered mail take (it was sent from the midwest to the northeast)?<br><br>

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Registered mail and take forever...but is pretty much the safest way to ship something...so I wouldn't worry at all about it...just hope it arrives before Memorial Day!

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>I see what you guys are saying but I don't really want to refund the purchase. If the buyer wanted insurance he could have asked and I would have gladly purchased it. I have a receipt that says the postage paid and the destination of the package, so it was sent. Its easy to say just give him the money but what about me and my loss? I'm out a card and the money I got for it which I've already spent. I wouldn't say I'm at any more fault for the loss than the buyer seeing as neither of us are responsible for packages arriving or not arriving. The deal was made for 150 total with shipping included but not insurance and insurance or delivery confirmation were never discussed. If it had been I would have gladly opted for whatever the buyer wanted but they never brought it up. If it were e-Bay I don't think I would be liable because insurance and delivery confirmation is either stated in the description as being included or up to the buyer to request it.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>You should probably split the loss then. And you've learned an expensive lesson - always ship with at least delivery confirmation.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Addie,<br /><br />Actually, with eBay, the seller is responsible - not the buyer. Any claim would always be against the seller since as was pointed out, it is the seller's responsibility to get the item to the purchaser. Now, if the seller offers insurance and it is declined, the burden shifts to the buyer.<br /><br />In my example above where I decided to split it with the seller, it was more of a reputation thing. I've done business in the past with the seller, will in the future - we both decided on an amicable solution and $25.00 wasn't a whole heck of a lot of money.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>Addie,<br /><br />It is on you to see if the buyer wants insurance and as far as a delivery confirmation that to is on you as well.<br /><br />If you want some creditability with this board and the B/S/T section of this site then you need to refund the full $150. The backlash by not doing so will end up costing you a lot more then a measly $150.00

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>What does the buyer want. I NEVER send something that valuable without insurance. Would have been another $3 or so. Just to be sure. Know that doesn't help you now though.....Don't think Delivery Confirmation does ANYTHING for you either other than tell you it got there or it didn't. If it's lost, since they don't scan anywhere other than at delivery, you got nothing. 60 cents not well spent. Insurance is better if you ask me..........more expensive but it is what it is........insurance.<br /><br />

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Well there's another side to this. The name of the buyer is not the name of the person I shipped to. I shipped to the address associated with the paypal payment, but it is a different person than the guy contacting me about the card. I am thinking perhaps it arrived to the paypal address but not the buyer's personal address? That could perhaps explain why he hasn't received t. I contacted the buyer a few minutes ago to see if that is the case.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Tom - with delivery confirmation, if it shows delivered, I would have an easier time telling the buyer that it got to him and therefore I'm off the hook. I agree it's not as good as insurance/signature confirmation however.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>seller should be responsible. i usually take a loss on shipping/insurance because this isn't a business to me...it's a hobby...and I'd rather lose $5 on that end than the whole kit and ka-boodle if it never arrives.<br /><br />pete in mn

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>For almost every transaction I've ever made on eBay or otherwise as a buyer it was I who asked for insurance or delivery confirmation. I'd be willing to split the loss but I'm not going to refund the whole purchase because then what am I supposed to do? To me, the insurance is a fault we both made and therefore should both shoulder, I don't see any sense in me bearing the full brunt of it when both of us are as guilty as the other.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>if you sold a $150.00 card and shipped it with no delivery confirmation or insurance i think you are at fault. imagine if you bought on line from ANY RETAIL STORE(wal mart/sears,ETC) and never recieved what you paid for. you call them and they say well we shipped it,too bad. it's their/your responsibility to get the item to the buyer and insurance or at least delivery confirmation should always be in the price when sold to insure safe arrival.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Phil</b><p>I think it is the Seller's responsibility. Look at it this way, if you purchased something from a major on-line retailer (Best Buy or something) and paid for it, but never received the item, wouldn't you expect Best Buy to ship you another item?<br /><br />I'm not comparing you to a big business, but it should be the seller's responsibility. As someone else stated, to take a $150 hit will go an awful lot further for your reputation than anything you could have purchased for that $150.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>I see, I will ask the buyer if he will be happy with a 75 dollar split for the cost. Its not as though I'm just saying "too bad I shipped it take my word for it" I do have proof that I sent it. I don't think he's a dishonest guy and would just claim that he never received it so a split in cost seems fair to me. I will wait till he checks with the address and person the package was actually shipped to first though.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Corey- Registered mail is safest. I bet they don't lose more than 1 in a million of those packages...I am sure you are fine. You will win the Powerball lottery before you will have a registered package lost.<br /><br />On this transaction, imo, if nothing was said then it's up to each party to get their respective part of the deal to the other....If I do a deal and nothing is spoken about then it's on me to get my part of the deal to the other person. Just my opinion and the way I do business. This could be a relatively cheap learning lesson. regards<br />ps...splitting the loss can take some pain out of it but I still don't believe the buyer had any duty if not spoken about beforehand.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Phil</b><p>Why should the buyer lose $75......he did nothing wrong and didn't receive his item?

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>a) purchase insurance for cards valued at $50 or more (it takes a few minutes and costs a few dollars, but nothing to lose sleep over -- like losing $150);<br /><br />b) have my personal collectibles insurance with CIA that would cover losses like this. Haven't had to use it.<br /><br /><br />I once received a sheet of T206 cards -- they had been glued together on a sheet -- and it arrived ripped in one corner, destroying the Griffith and the Huggins that had been glued there. Fortunately seller had insurance, and the post office paid me for the loss in value as a result.<br /><br /><br><br>_ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ _ <br /><br />Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!<br /><br />

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p><br />I didn't do anything wrong either and I'd be out a card and money. To me, both of us are at fault for not asking the other to insure or if they wanted insurance. You guys are of the similar opinion its my fault and thats fine and valid points have been made, but I'm not a businessman I'm just a kid who sold a card to someone. I put the card in the mail and then never saw it again. So if you want it to come down to who is at "fault" neither of us are and neither of us "did anything wrong". The situation needs to be rectified no doubt but I see an equal solution as the best one.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Addie- I sell baseball cards for a living and every package I send out is insured or registered. I think you should either request a little extra in postage from the buyer, or just pay the insurance yourself. It's not a good idea to send valuable merchandise uninsured.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Addie-<br /><br />The fact that your "just a kid" as you say means nothing. I'm assuming your 18? The BST is supposed to be a responsible place for transactions to take place...and its built on trust. If your not trustworthy and won't stand up for your items being delivered than that will reflect any future sales you have on this board. The fact is you could have gotten $100 of insurance for a $1.65. Your still making out a whole lot better than the fees you saved not putting the item up on ebay. "just a kid" doesn't hold water.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Martin Neal</b><p>I just recently had this happen to me. I sold PSA 4 t206 Chance to a board member in San Fran. After a couple of weeks he informed me that he had not received the card. Not to worry, as I always buy insurance on cards worth over $75.00 or so. After finding the USPS receipt, I discovered that all I had done was get a delivery confirmation for this package. The buyer was more than gracious and I sent him the tracking number for the item. Meanwhile, I approached the problem at the Post Office only to learn that the most I could hope to expect was for the package being "discovered" at the regional office for lost mail in Atlanta. Finally after a couple of more weeks, I refunded the full amount to the purchaser as I felt it was my responsibility to insure the package arrived to him safely. If you do not request the buyer to pay extra for the insurance, I think the onus is on the seller to provide it. A week or so later, the package arrived in San Fran and the purchaser sent me another payment. That would have been the first package that I had ever lost.<br /><br />Addie, You aren't out the card and the money, just the card, the money was the purchasers.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>And if i'm the buyer in this situation and the seller claims someone at my house may have took the card....well, I'd be on the border of irate.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>a card from Barry off Ebay, i did see he charged me $5.00 for shipping but that included insurance. Thats fine with me because the total for shipping and insurance will probably be more. Also, its a card i would hope to arrive safely.<br /><br />My idea for every B/S/T would be charge a buyer for insurance and if he/she complains then save the email, ship the card without insurance and you are covered.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Dave F you have an axe to grind. I didn't claim someone took it, I don't know where he lives. If he lives in an apartment complex it could be that someone else living in the complex received the package unknowingly or that someone picked up the wrong mail. Don't be so assuming or quick to judge. It's clear something is bothering you today but don't take it out on me.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Mark- It came to $7.87 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> But I am happy to pay the difference because I can't deal with the aggravation of losing a valuable package and not having insurance.<br /><br />I will say however that last year I sent a $60 package that was lost in the mail. It was fully insured and I put in a claim. About a month into the process I just sent the $60 to the buyer so he would not have to wait any longer. In the end it took me about three months to get reimbursed. That included the people at the post office filling out their part wrong, and the process had to be started over from scratch.<br /><br />The aggravation and time wasted was substantial.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>IMO -<br /><br />It is completely the responsibility of the seller to get the item to the buyer.<br /><br />If it is lost - - and not insured - - it is the sellers loss / not the buyers.<br /><br /><br />ALWAYS SHIP WITH INSURANCE - or take on that risk yourself.<br /><br />

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Addie - this message board isn't like others - when you disagree with someone please don't start calling them names.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Addie...nope, no axe to grind. I don't like the fact however because your "just a kid" it makes this all ok. And as you stated....<br /><br />"I sold a card to someone on the B/S/T forum several weeks ago and it appears as though the card has been lost or delivered to the wrong address or misplaced by someone in their household or complex."<br /><br /><br />Fact remains...if your telling me someone at my house misplaced, lost, stole, etc a card shipped to my house then yes I'm going to get irate...thats basically going with the excuse that someone at the buyer's house is a moron.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>refund the $150.00. Period.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Like I said Dave, it was addressed to a different name than the person contacting me about the package, so yes, I think it is entirely within the realm of possibility that someone looking for a package addressed to one name would not notice a package addressed to someone else. Is that too much to handle? If someone were sending something to me but addressed it to my room mate or dad or whatever, would I notice it had arrived? Perhaps, but perhaps not. If my paypal address is different from my home address and in a different name, wouldn't I think the package got lost in the mail and maybe forget to perhaps check with the other address? I suggested possibilities and never accused anyone of anything, sit back and relax.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>the bst has gotten very complicated over the years with all the extra rules and disclaimers etc...luckily it's still free <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />i'd just split the difference...of course when the buyer requests i send it to a different address because of paypal i'd be cautious and request they buy insurance just in case, seems a bit messy.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree with Quan and others. Once you were requested to send the package to a different name, I would have treated myself to some insurance. Things can just get complicated.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>When I sell something on the B/S/T for under $75 to someone I recognize or has a good reputation, I don't put insurance on it. If they never get it, I give full refund. I figure it evens out between the number of packages that get lost and the money I'd spend on insurance. And I hate wasting time/energy trying to make claims w/the PO.<br /><br />If the sale is over $75-100 or I don't really know the buyer, then I put insurance on it.<br /><br />I once bought a $50 card on ebay and didn't get it. The seller gave me a full refund, so I gave him 1/2 of it back. I trusted that he shipped it and just didn't think he should take the full loss. Maybe the buyer in this case will feel bad for Addie_Joss, but unfortunately the burden is on you Addie, IMO. $150 is alot of money (at least to me) especially for a "young" person, but if you are gonna deal in big money then you have to understand the risks and protect yourself. Lesson learned. <br /><br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Phil</b><p>I think you have learned a $150 lesson.<br /><br />It could have been much higher. You now will no longer ship without insurance and will save yourself $$ and aggravation down the road.<br /><br />I think you need to refund the money. The good will you will get from that is worth a heck of a lot more than $150. If you don't, people will be leary of doing business with you which you can't get back once you've lost it for any amount of money.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Anthony N.</b><p>Addie- hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's my understanding that any transaction paid via paypal MUST included delivery confirmation (or signature confirmation if over $200) or they will take the money back from you in the event of a dispute. And I believe that shipping to a different address or an unconfirmed address will cause a dispute to be settled against you as well, although I've heard there were some changes in that in the last week.<br /><br />

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>If delivery confirmation must be purchased why doesn't paypal expressly state so in the transaction? I saw no notice of such in the transaction details. Am I missing it?

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>I asked from the start is this a recognizable board member...you didn't answer. There are board members I've dealt with that I would in fact send their cards elsewhere at their request...either they were in Canada and that just made it easier on me...or whatever. <br /><br />So before anybody starts spinning this that the buyer is partially to blame because he asked the package go to his dad, or a friend in the U.S. if it was a Canadian buyer or whatever...should probably find out if this other member is a recognizable person on this board. <br /><br />And if he isn't somebody you recognize, then it goes back again to why send a package somewhere you don't feel comfortable and not put an extra couple bucks towards insurance?<br /><br />You can say whatever you want about me Addie..bottom line is i've been on the receiving end of this...and it is YOUR responsiblity to get the card where its going. I have two packages going out today or tomorrow...one worth about $1000 and one worth about $2500....I'd rather spend the few bucks to insure the packages and not have to worry with splitting something 50/50 with a buyer when all he has to do to start is send you a payment...his end of the deal is complete. If not, then start putting in your for sale posts that prices aren't gauranteed to arrive!

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Joseph Shirley</b><p>I always pay insurance for an item I sell. I don't even ask the buyer. I think of it as a small price to pay, to avoid these difficult situations.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It is solely each parties responsibility to get their end of the deal to the other if nothing was mentioned. Period. <br /><br />Addie- if the buyer sent money and it got lost would you still feel he should get the card? <br /><br />The age of the members and addressees have little to do with the situation. I do tend to be more conservative when dealing with folks I don't know well.....

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>nm

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Your just as upset? You have $150 in your pocket. The buyer doesn't have a card. You don't feel you should compensate that...and your just as upset?

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Dave I really don't understand what your deal is. I'm upset a person lost a card, yes. Is that too much for you? Maybe the money is the issue that is important to you, but not me. I don't like to see people lose out on something like this. Is that too much to handle as well? I don't want to lose the money either but I don't like the feeling of buying something and being excited about it and then not receiving it. That is a let down and a horrible feeling I don't like to see people I deal with go through.<br />

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Jerry Rucker</b><p>I just had a similar situation with an ebay sale where a buyer in Australia won a 650.00 robot from me but had it shipped to his wife in the states. About 2 weeks after I shipped the robot he emails me telling me they haven't recieved it yet. The sale had insurance but it's still worrisome when something that expensive is missing and collecting from the Post Office is a hassle. Luckily I had included a signature confimation and when I emailed him and showed him where she had signed for the Robot, they miraculously found it. I don't think they were trying to pull anything, I just don't think his wife cares as much about Robots as he does.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>If I sell something, I feel that I am accountable for the package. The means by which I protect myself varies. I use a lot of instinct when I ship something. <br /><br />For all relatively small dollar items ($100 or less) I sell on EBay I charge $3 for shipping and OPTIONAL insurance. But just because insurance is optional, does not mean that I won't elect to put insurance on it anyway and eat the difference, especially with those buyers with relatively poor or limited feedback. EVERYTHING I send (unless it is highly insured or registered goes with delivery confirmation) has delivery confirmation.<br /><br />If it is a mid-range dollar item ($100-500), I normally charge $4 and OPTIONAL insurance. But, for the $4 I put SOME insurance on the package and delivery confirmation. The amount of insurance is based on my comfort with the buyer (could be $100 worth of insurance or full purchase price). If they buy insurance, of course, it is fully insured. My instinct has always been that insured packages are treated a little differently by the postal service than the non-insured.<br /><br />If it is a multi-thousand dollar item, I ship it registered and let people know that it may take awhile to get to their location.<br /><br />On Wednesday, I shipped $1,200 worth of cards to a friend/board member. We didn't talk about insurance. What did I do this time? I put $500 worth of insurance on the item. That magic number is based on: I can use a kiosk at my post office, which provides mostly all the same services as going to the counter, but will only accept insurance coverage up to $500. Since, I didn't feel like waiting in line, I used the kiosk and put $500 on it. BTW, those postal kiosks are great. Usually, no waiting. I can go to the post office at midnight and mail my items. If it wasn't for having that kiosk available, my EBay sells would change drastically. They also print out big labels with bar-coded ZIP codes and I believe this expedites shipping. I get a lot of e-mails regarding how quickly my packages arrive.<br /><br />Yesterday, I priority mailed $6,000 worth of cards to SGC. How much insurance? $1,200 Why? I didn't want to ship it registered (which is cheaper at that dollar amount) because I wanted it to get there quickly. I didn't feel the need to spend the full dollar for insurance since SGC is entirely trustworthy. Anything over $500 requires signature and that comforts me. Theft of that dollar amount, involving the postal service, is a Federal Felony and I have always thought that one would have to think long and hard before going that route.<br /><br />Most of this is simply instinct, but it has worked so far. No Problems!

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>Addie, you started this thread. YOU asked "What is the proper thing to do? Is it just something that happens from time to time and the buyer takes the loss?"<br /><br />Several members have given you their opinion that YOU asked for. You don't seem to care for their advice. I think people understand your feelings in this matter, but don't ask for advice, if you have a hard time with the results. <br /><br />Your attitude here is similar to the Mayo John Clarkson thread, when you basically wanted the card re-classified to a common. The majority of collectors disagreed with you then too. <br /><br /><br />Good luck to you. <br />

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Addie-<br /><br />Did you read this at the top of the BST page?<br /><br />"Posters assume all responsibility for their own transactions"<br /><br /><br /><br />According to you Addie, if I list a card on the BST for $500, then it shouldn't be a matter of someone being able to quickly email me saying "I'll take it", since listing the card at $500 they shouldn't assume I'm including insurance..instead they should have to jump through hoops to find out all the details. It should come down to who can email me the fastest asking about shipping method, insurance, and what kind of box your going to send the card in?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>SGC is trustworthy, but that package could still get lost in the mail. I would have sent it registered even if it took a few extra days. There's all ways of doing it.

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Addie, <br /><br />You need to grow up and stop pissing and whining "Why me?" Quit arguing with Dave when he is simply answering the question you asked.<br /><br />You seem to be missing an important point here. <br /><br />Did you get the buyers money? If yes, then he completed his end of the deal. <br /><br />Did he get the card (or more importantly, can you prove he got the card)? If no, then you have not completed your end of the deal. <br /><br />At the very least, the lesson here should be to always ship with Delivery Confirmation. For 65 or 75 cents you could have swung this whole argument to your side. If you had proof it was delivered, it would be a different story. <br /><br />Is the buyer a regular board member? That may have some bearing, but I'm afraid it's probably on you to fix this. You talk about the buyer not protecting himself with insurance. Wrong. The insurance protection is for YOU, not him. If you can pass that cost along to him... fine. If not, it's a business expense you must bear. <br /><br />Unfortunately for you, this problem will fall on you. If you refuse to refund the money, you'll have a hard time doing B/S/T deals going forward. I know I have already decided, after reading this thread, that it would take a lot to make me buy from you on the B/S/T. Your reluctance to do what is right, and what everyone is telling you is right, is very telling about your business sense. <br />

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim is correct. Insurance protects the seller. If the buyer sends the payment, he has no other responsibility.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I agree with every single thing you said. However (don't you hate the "howevers"?) I think we should be a little bit more patient with a younger person (hi Addie) than crusty guys like ourselves. I am NOT saying anything changes fundamentally but we should have more patience. Yes, he's playing with mostly older guys and that's the way it goes but still.....I think Addie is a good guy and is still understanding and learning the ways of life and business. This really will be a learning lesson for him.......Lets take the high road here......<br />When I was 18-20 I was really an arse.....If I were on this board back then I would have had all enemies and no friends.....best regards<br /><br /><br />PS....Addie- this one is going to be on you, my friend....

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Barry...there is no doubt I am probably more trusting than most. My experience is that when there is a problem with the postal service, there is often an explainable reason for that problem. I think people are often hesitant to admit mistakes...such as they addressed the package incorrectly.<br /><br />Think about this: How many bills that you mail with the pre-addressed envelopes fail to make it to there destination? Almost never...well it has never happened to me (I'm 45 and have a lot of bills <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ). How many times do we read on the board about a mailing issue where the seller obviously addressed the package themselves? Every other month or so. If it is not human error then it's some manner of theft, which is where having a signature at some level of insurance comes in to play.<br /><br />My point: care in addressing the package is a key and always write legibly when printing the return address. The postal service isn't perfect but they are pretty darn good.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree that the postal service gets it right virtually all of the time, even if the postal employees don't always work as hard as they should.<br /><br />But I don't like scrimping on postal insurance. I guess because this is my livelihood I try not to cut corners. I like to insure packages for their full value.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Leon, <br /><br />I agree, but that's why I waited 50+ posts into the thread. When I first read his initial post, I knew what the board was going to tell him. He doesn't seem to be getting it. Personally, as the father of two teenagers, I have found that the direct approach sometimes helps things sink in. (Not always.)<br /><br />Addie, <br /><br />No hard feelings intended. You have always seemed like a bright, enthusiastic guy. Into vintage cards at a much early age than most of us were. But please, if you ask for everyone's opinion, don't argue and attack when they give it. I hope this works out for you in the end. <br /><br /><br />Edited to add: Leon, <br /><br /><br />"Crusty"????? Who? Me?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I do a moderate amount of selling on the B/S/T boards and I always insure those transactions if it is more than an amount than I'm willing to pay for out of pocket if it gets lost. Usually less than $50 I won't insure, but anything over that I automatically insure it. On ebay I guess I take a different tact in that I offer insurance, but if the buyer doesn't take it then I'll usually get delivery confirmation to protect myself.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Yes, we are crusty <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ......we really need to meet some day as we are only a few miles from each other. You and Jeff P live even closer to each other as I think he's in Plano.....Maybe I will have another get together at my house soon? It was a little anti-climatic last time but fun. regards

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Brian McQueen</b><p>Not much I can add to this discussion that everyone hasn't already touched on. I think Dave F., Jim and Leon are spot on with their suggestions though. <br /><br />A little bit about how I go about selling cards ....I always list cards with prices next to them and include a disclaimer somewhere in the post about "prices include shipping/insurance". Sort of clears that little bit of confusion up right away. However, if I didn't intend on including shipping/insurance with the price, I would recommend specifying that amount up front so that the buyer doesn't have any confusion. Similar to how it works on Ebay I suppose. <br /><br />I've never used Fed Ex or UPS to ship cards - always the USPS. I usually won't bother insuring anything under $100, however I'll only do that with someone I'm familiar with on the buyers end and of course under the assumption that if something did happen, I'd be fully responsible. That's sort of the risk you take for declining to insure your packages. Like other's have stated, you're fully responsible for making sure the buyer receives the cards in good order. That's all a part of holding up your end of the transaction. And since foul-play apparently isn't a consideration at this point, that burden falls on you, I'm afraid. Once the value starts getting into the $600-700 range, I start thinking about using Registered shipping (slower but even safer than standard insurance).<br /><br />Hope it works out but in the end, I think this one is on you and I'd recommend reimbursing the buyer. You'll soon find that your reputation on this board is worth WAY more than any $150 baseball card.<br /><br />Regards...<br />Brian<br /><br />Edited to correct faulty spelling before Barry sees it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I once shipped a 1953 Topps that got lost in the mail and I refunded the buyer. About three months later the USPO returned the package, card fine but note saying the package was damaged by PO machinery. So it's possible for a long delayed card to eventually show up.

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Posted By: <b>Sean BH</b><p>I agree with most here that it's you end of the deal to deliver the card. If you print a shipping label with PayPal you are required to purchase delivery confirmation; and I think there rules are any value package needs delivery confirmation and anything over $250 needs signature confirmation. <br /><br />I'm a little confused about the different shipping address situation, he asked you to ship it to a different address (work?) than was on PayPal? Did you ask him why? <br /><br />This sucks for both parties involved but it still could show up, Jeff and I had a little thing with the post office last year and one day it just showed up.<br /><br />sdbh<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>i believe its anything over $200 needs sig. thats what they tell me at post office.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>One thing to add w/r/t Paypal: When you are using Paypal and asked to ship to either a different address or to a paypal account in a different name you need to refuse the shipment unless it goes to the paypal-verified address. Also, you MUST use delivery confirmation or other verifiable proof of delivery or you will lose any paypal dispute. Also, remember that just because you say "no insurance, no delivery guarantee" does not mean Paypal will rule your way; they key to proof of delivery not proof of insurance. <br /><br />In this case, based on what you said happened, specifically your not offering insurance to the buyer and your not using a verifiable form of delivery, I would say the right thing to do is to refund the money and hope that the the item turns up again, in which case the buyer would be expected to pay you for it. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Sean BH</b><p>Hi Mark,<br />You're right about anything insured for $200 will need a signature to be delivered by the post office, but PayPal requires a signature confirmation for anything $250 and over. <br /><br />sdbh

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>ok Sean, i was reading too fast.

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Sean BH</b><p>All them pesky PayPal rules... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />sdbh

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Wow. I think I am missing something here.<br /><br />We have had this debate several times before and I don't remember it ever being so unanimous, or represented as being so clear. There have been very vigorous and healthy arguments for both sides, and although I think it often leans in favor of seller responsibility, I don't think it has been the bright line that is being tossed about today. Maybe it's because in those cases the seller was a well-known board member and some people wanted to defend? I don't know. I'm just a little surprised by the vehemence about it here.<br /><br />And Dave, you know we have no beef between us and that I usually agree with you, but I don't believe that there is anything at all presumed on the BST about what is or isn't implied in a stated price wrt to shipping cost and responsibility. I know some people assume it, but it is not any kind of policy or even overwhelming practice. So yes, people CAN jump in and say they want something immediately without haggling details first - they just have to be prepared to possibly pay something in shipping on top of the sale price or at least have a discussion about it. It happens, and there is no clear yes or no on any assumptions that BST prices are out-the-door prices.<br /><br />But Addie, I think you should probably make the refund. I'd be just sick about it if I were you, and this thread has me resolving to be more careful about getting insurance when I'm a seller - sometimes when I'm in a hurry I skip it. But I'd be pretty upset.<br /><br />A case can be made either way as to whether the risk should have been negotiated or not, and whose responsibility it was to initiate that discussion. But it would probably tilt toward a seller-responsible verdict. More important is the other point a few have brought up. The BST flies and dies by individual reputation, and even though $150 is a lot of money you will be worse off if you dig in, reputation wise.<br /><br />So I'd pay it. It's not like it's out-of-the-zone unfair for you to do so, and you will be better off for it when you continue to use the BST.<br /><br />Finally, here is one way to think about it. If the buyer had sent cash in the mail - something that anyone that got their hands on it could keep and use - and you never received it, would you feel like you should still ship the card? Probalby not. <br /><br />I still think there is gray area here, but the above analogy may help make some of the logic clearer. <br /><br />But like I said, I'd be just sick about it if I were you. But I'd refund it.<br /><br />Joann<br /><br />(And I will NOT get in too much of a hurry to skip insurance on more expensive items again!)

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>I agree Joanne most the time we probably do fall along the same lines of thinking..but on this one we'll have to agree to disagree. I just really feel if the seller won't ship a card insured (or at least pick it up on his own tab if he chooses not to insure) than the seller should be obligated to mention before the transaction is paid sometthing about "hey, do you want this insured because that wasn't in my for sale price?" that would at least be common courtesey rather than just saying i'll take $300 for card x, and leaving it up to a buyer to have to then ask the question "hey is this going to be insured?" <br /><br />maybe its just in the people you get used to dealing with on here..but I can say I've never asked TBob or Leon or Mark Turner or anyone else what was included in the price I was paying for something...maybe I am the one in the dark here...

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I see some good points being made. I still stand by the mantra "if nothing is discussed each party is responsible for getting their end of the deal to the other person". <br /><br />There are no set rules and there won't be any on the BST, except caveat emptor:) For me...when I sell something on the BST I will put a price up and if someone says I will take it then I usually just throw in the guaranteed delivery. Whomever says that the seller really SHOULD make the shipping/insurance cost (or no cost) clear in the initial offering is correct. I can't say I always do that though. For the amount of transactions that go on over there, I have to get involved in extremely few. One every few months, maybe. It's really a good place overall...and even better as it's free and somewhat overseen.....regards

What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail?
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />My experience on the BST has probably been about 80/20 in that sometimes there is discussion about shipping costs, responsibilty, etc. but most of the time not. But it is not a slam dunk never, by any means.<br /><br />I def understand that you believe it is on the seller and that is perfectly fine - I think there are very good arguments for that. But I read some of your earlier posts more as saying that that's how it is on the BST, a more definitive statement. I disagreed more with the extent of the comments, or the certainty, not so much with the philosophical basis for them.<br /><br />I probably lean toward seller responsiblity myself, but think it's not clear in all cases - that there are times when it may be more of a shared responsibility. Certainly a buyer that provides a ship-to address that has semi-public access by roomates or other residents might be one of these cases. <br /><br />It may be fair to say that Addie was taking on the normal risk of lost in the mail, damaged, whatever, that is inherent in any shipping of anything. But I think it might just be a bit unfair to ask him to also absorb the less common risk associated with certain delivery addresses - different from buyer and access by other parties would be a risk present in this case but not necessarily all cases. <br /><br />This is all just speculation because we don't know who all may have had access to mail at the delivery address, but I know some postmen leave packages in apartment stairwells under the mailboxes if it won't fit in the mailbox. I'm just pointing this out as an example of why I think it's over-simplistic to say it's always on the seller. If the buyer's delivery situation presents some higher-than-normal risk, I think he is obliged to let the seller know or at least talk about delivery rather than assume that the seller is willing to absorb this extra risk.<br /><br />As an example, Leon often self-insures packages - takes the risk but does not buy insurance, figuring he will pay out of his pocket if there is a problem. I would think that if a buyer had an unusual risk on his end, Leon would need to know before shipping or he would not be responsible for it. If he knows, he has the opportunity to buy commercial insurance. If not, he's on the hook for osmething he didn't bargain for or even know about. <br /><br />I'm just saying it's not that simple all the time.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Just today I committed to buy something off the B/S/T board for "$xx delivered." I don't think it's my responsbility as a buyer to ask the seller if I need to pay for shipping insurance in order to not be held responsbile if the shipment gets lost or damaged.<br /><br />Conversely, when I post something for sale and include "delivered" with the asking price (which I almost always do), I feel it's my duty as a seller to insure the package or else accept responsbility if it doesn't arrive safely.<br /><br />