1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Greetings. I was wondering if anyone knows why Clarkson is depicted with ST LOUIS on his 1895 N300 card. I reviewed his bio and no where does it mention any association with ST LOUIS.<br />Thanks<br /><br />

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>Hi Richard, I've always thought that they got John confused his his brother Dad Clarkson, who played with St. Louis 1892-1895. Randy

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>So is the card then of John Clarkson or of his brother? How can it be of John if it shows him in a St. Louis jersey and he never played for St. Louis? The fact it might look like him cannot be dispositive until we know what his brother looked like.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>Just thought I would add a visual for the people that don't have one..<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.vintagecardprices.com/pics/39207.jpg">

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>How do we know that is supposed to be John? It just has his last name on the card...

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>This is the first I've ever heard of this. I don't own a Mayo yet but I think a lot of people are gonna be pretty bummed they paid top dollar for what looks to be a common. Even though all Mayos are expensive anyway, but if you bought that card and paid HOFer price then you're gonna be a little annoyed to find out its just a common.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>although I don't believe any conclusions were reached:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1113680749/Mayo+question" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1113680749/Mayo+question</a>

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Can someone post some portrait images of John Clarkson to use as comparison? In particular, I'd like to see his Just So. Are there any known (individual or team) images of his brother?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>It has to be his brother. John Clarkson was playing for Cleveland in 1894 and Dad Clarkson played for St Louis in 1894, which is the year the photo was probably taken. There is no way that is John Clarkson. I'm really surprised something like this hasn't been discovered or looked into before.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1205945521.JPG">

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Here ya go Corey....this is borrowed from Pat Preece as he owns the card....(and the Mayo is from Bobby's post above...for reference)<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1205945882.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1205946202.JPG"> <br />

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1205946005.JPG"> <br /><br />Of course the Mayo looks to be the identical image...

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Its not the same image. The uniforms are totally different. There is no lacing in the Mayo, plus the uniform clearly says St. Louis and is not a portrait but an actual photo. So there is no way it was some kind of artistic error, that is a Clarkson with a St. Louis uniform on and I don't see how it could be John.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/uffda51/allenginter/small/N28%20Clarkson.JPG"><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/uffda51/1889diamondsnumber7cigars/small/Clarkson.JPG">

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Without seeing whether the brother has a crooked nose, a mole or some other identifiable feature, I don't think the photo comparison can prove anything.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Its a photo though. How can it be John Clarkson if he never put on a St. Louis uniform? Whether or not artist renderings look similar, how do you get passed there being a Clarkson wearing a St. Louis uniform and think its John?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>I still think the images are nearly identical - right down to the "dimple" at the top of the hat.<br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />Haven't we seen other 19th century cards where heads were placed on "stock" uniform photos?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>nm

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>They aren't really that identical. If you look, the A&G image has a different tilt on the head and the eyes aren't as narrowed as the Mayo is. Look at the position of the ears, they are at different tilts. Plus, like I said, the Mayo is an actual photo. How do you get passed him wearing a St. Louis uniform when John seems to have never put one on?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Actually, the more I look at the Mayo, I'm not sure they are real uniform photos. For example, check out this:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1205947137.JPG"> <br /><br />This is clearly a real headshot placed on a "fake" uniform. My guess is the AG card I showed above was taken from a real photo of John Clarkson, the same photo that was used on the head shot for the Mayo. That is why the AG and the Mayo look, in my opinion, nearly identical. Sure the facial features are a little different but the AG is a drawing from the photo. The Mayo is the real photo. I believe the Mayo set, while possibly trying to depict Dad Clarkson, used the John Clarkson photo, placing John's head on a St. louis uniform.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>I believe that the Clarkson they "meant" to portray was John Clarkson. He just finished a HOf career with over 300 wins. Dad Clarkson had a career record of 22-28 at the time,coming off an 8-17 season in 1894. I don't see why Dad would merit getting in a set as small as N300. I believe the photo is John, and the uniform not part of a "real" photo.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Would they have been technologically able to do that at the time? Take a photograph and cut and past it above an artificially generated body? There are some cards that feature players in suits and dressed up like the Jimmy Ryan. Why wouldn't they have just super imposed his head like the others? I think this is just an example of a card that has been mis-catalogued this whole time. It can't just be a coincidence that Dad Clarkson played for St. Louis at the exact time the card would have been produced and there is no J before the name to lead one to believe it would be John.<br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />Also, if there were brothers with the same last name playing at the same exact time, wouldn't they differentiate between them with initials unless it was the team name was supposed to give away who was who?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>I spoke with Rob Lifson about this question inasmuch as REA will be offering in its upcoming auction an entire Mayo set (each card to be sold individually). Rob emailed the catalog description of the Clarkson card along with another comparison image. When I return to my office later today I'll post them. Rob did say, to explain how Clarkson could be in a St. Louis jersey without having played for them, is that Mayos used artwork to superimpose on jerseys the desired team name. So the fact that Clarkson might never have been photographed in a St. Louis jersey would not have prevented Mayo from depicting him in one.<br><br>

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Corey - I agree and that is what I was getting at above. The more I look at the Mayo set, there are a large number of cards that have jersey's which are drawn or superimposed. I do not think this would have been tough to do, even in 1895. Sure, they didn't have photoshop to ease in the process, but my belief is that the Clarkon card depicts John, despite what the jersey reads.<br /><br />Addie, I hear what you are saying, too, but I just don't think this card depicts Dad. Just as you ask to look past the facial similarities between the AG and the Mayo and focus on the St. Louis on the jersey. . . forget for a second that the jersey says St. Louis and look at the shoulders up.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Without seeing what his brother looks like, all that can be said is the head looks similar to John, but also may look similar to his brother and is, therefore, entirely inconclusive.<br />

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>I see what you're saying, and maybe it is John, but I don't think so. The cards that do feature John, at least the ones I'm familiar with, always seem to either have a John or a J on the front before his last name. I do not know if there are any other cards of Dad Clarkson, but if John Clarkson was as big a star as he conceivably was, how could they make such a mistake as to put him on the wrong team? There is the chance that they confused him with his brother, no doubt, I just don't think thats the case. <br /><br />Here is the kicker and what I think the clincher:<br /><br /><br /><br />There are some players featured on 2 teams in the set, such as Dan Brouthers who is featured playing for Baltimore and Louisville, which leads me to believe that these cards were produced during the 1895 season because Brouthers played for both teams in 1895 and not 1894. If that is the case, then there is no way it could be John Clarkson because his career ended in 1894. I believe that to be Dad Clarkson and a card that has been mis-catalogued all this time.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>The Mayo Clarkson definately depicts John, although it was probably supposed to be Dad. Unless they were identical brothers (which is unlikely) the card has an image of John. <br /><br />The Nichols earlier is not a photo-shop job. They used a picture of Nichols when he was still with Omaha and superimposed Boston on his chest. My brother sold the studio photo of Nichols with Omaha a few auctions ago.<br />-Rhett

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Why wouldn't they have corrected the mistake though? With the other amended cards in the sets, such as the Brouthers and Glasscock variations, why leave the Clarkson unless it wasn't a mistake?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>The picture of Nichols is proof that they were using old photos (In Nichols's case the photo was about 5 years old). They probably just used a photo of "Clarkson" to depict the "Clarkson" playing for St. Louis. Thus, I am sure they were making a card of Dad but used John's picture.<br />-Rhett

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Rhett - how are you so certain that it isn't a photo of Dad? Do you know what he looked like?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Let's say that is the case, that this is a photo of John but meant to depict Dad Clarkson, who then do you think is represented in the card? Do you consider it a John Clarkson card or a Dad Clarkson card? I forget specifics, but aren't there plenty of other examples of HOFer cards with HOFer names but contain images of a different player? They are still catalogued as the HOFer because of the name and not the image. Is this then a Dad Clarkson card or a John Clarkson card, assuming it is an image of John but meant to depict Dad?<br /><br /><br />Also, I still think these cards were produced during the 1895 season and therefore any need to differentiate between the two brothers would be unnecessary because John was no longer playing.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>They are not twins. John born in 1861, Dad in 1866.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Addie, along similar thinking, however, Dad Clarkson was traded to the Orioles during the 1895 season (June 6th) and his card was not updated to reflect his team change.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>I think the intention is clear that the card is meant to depict Dad Clarkson due to the team featured. So I would also then say that this is a Dad Clarkson card and not a John Clarkson card, even if John Clarkson is pictured, which I don't think is the case. <br /><br />Is this the general concensus amongst the board? That this thread may have paved the way for a re-cataloguing of the card? I don't see how anyone can say that this is still a John Clarkson card when it seems to me that the card is clearly meant to depict Dad Clarkson and is therefore a Dad Clarkson card regardless of whether or not the image MAY be John.<br /><br />right?<br /><br />Edited to add: That's true that he was traded but the set may have been fully run at the time. I'm curious as to when Brouthers was traded in relation to the date Dad Clarkson was. <br /><br />Edited to add: Also, I still think the Brouthers cards make it evident that the cards were indeed produced during the 1895 season which would mean that there is no way possible that the card is meant to depict John Clarkson.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I don't know why I don't just go to the source first. Lew Lipset said this what, 25 years ago:<br /><br />"Included in this group is an interesting card of John Clarkson, designated as 'Clarkson, P' with St. Louis on his uniform. John Clarkson never pitched for St. Louis, retiring after 2 mediocre years with Cleveland in 1893-4. However, John had a brother Arthur, who pitched for St. Louis in 1893-5. Clearly there was some confusion, but the picture on the Mayo is definitely John Clarkson,, despite the improperly labeled uniform. Evidence of this is the portrait of Clarkson is the identical one used in the Series of Champions produced by Allen & Ginters."<br /><br />I agree that the card was intended to be that of brother Art, with a superimposed or other photo trick used to label the uniform. What you all make of how to catalogue it is up to you-- heck, Irv Young cards still draw thousands of $$$$ just because someone printed Cy on the caption. Would you rather have the right picture/ wrong name or vice versa?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>I just wish there was some kind of back up besides "So and so says so". I'd be curious how many times Lipsett ran into images of Dad Clarkson and how he determined without a doubt that it is the identical photo used for the A & G set almost 10 years earlier. That just doesn't very likely to me at all.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Brouthers team change happened in May of 1895.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Todd - this one is categorically different then the Irv/Cy Young because there the card states its intentions. Here, we have no proof of if the card was intended to be that of John or his brother.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>If the Brouthers trade was completed in May, it could be that was the month of the final amendments to the set and could explain why Dad, traded in June, wasn't amended. <br /><br />I'm still curious if everyone now considers this a Dad Clarkson card and not a John Clarkson card and if future submissions and grading should reflect such. What do you guys think?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>inasmuch as John never played for St. Louis and his brother did, at the very time the card was issued no less.<br /><br />Addie, with all due respect, I cannot see how you can view that photo and conclude is it anything other than the litho used in the A&G card. IMHO, this one passes all reasonable doubt. As stated, the dimple in the cap, the way it sits on his head--with the same amount of shadow on his forehead, the hair on his temple, the ear, etc. I think an artist would be hard pressed to take that photo and try to litho/paint/draw it any closer, and remember that the artist may have been given some license to throw in a hue or tone here and there to make it appear as a slight tilt or movement--I mean, who cared? This explains my concern in the thread three years ago that the photo looked too young to be John in 1895--it was an old photo from six or so years prior.<br /><br />

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Todd - I was suggesting this was at least somewhat different then the Cy/Irv Young because there the card says 'A' while depicting 'B' whereas here, the card depicts 'B' but does not specify 'A'. I think you are agreeing with me and then some, suggesting the card may not only depict 'B' but it may be specifying 'B' as well.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>If that is the case then the photo in the Mayo card is nearly a decade old. Why would they choose to do that when a set released just 2 years earlier, the Just So set, used an updated photo of John Clarkson in which he looks much older than a card produced 2 years later?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>Also, if the Nichols card was superimposed, it could be just because they didn't have a photo of Nichols to use for the set so they used an older one and superimposed the team name. However, Nichols still had played for Boston for 5 years before the card was produced by Mayo. Similarly, both Brouthers card feature the same image with a superimposed team change. The same can't be said for the Clarkson card. It is clearly a Dad Clarkson card and not a John Clarkson card and should be catalogued and viewed as such regardless of whether or not it MAY feature John. For them to use such an old photo of John to represent Dad Clarkson doesn't seem logical to me at all.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I'm not. I believe the Mayo is specifiying Dad but depicting John. That photo is of John, period. John never played for St. Louis, so the card is not intended to specify John, it is meant to specify Dad, who did play there. Maybe they had no photo of Dad, maybe they just made a mistake and used the wrong one without checking. <br /><br />Addie, the Just So card is extremely scarce, and it is entirely possible the Mayo folks were unaware of it or the underlying photo.<br /><br />BTW, check out the 1928 Ice Cream cards of HOFer Bill Terry. They actually use a photo of Zeb Terry taken at least 11 years prior (actually, the Ice Cream sets use a whole bunch of old re-circulated photos, and show little originality).

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Is this set more properly dated to 1894-1895 instead of just 1895?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>I wonder if the value will go down on this card. Should it be viewed as a common? I think by now we have established it should be viewed as a Dad Clarkson card. Even though Mayo commons are still quite rare and valuable, I don't see why this card should sell for as much of a premium.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>One final point:<br /><br />I think it is clear that a lot of care went into producing the set. With the changes to team deliniation I think it shows that the producers of this set cared for its accuracy and totality. For that reason, I find it extremely hard to believe that they would use a decade old photo of his brother to represent Dad Clarkson. You have to realize, it was a conscious decision to include Dad Clarkson in the set. A decision that had to have been made prior to the set's release. Why then would they make a decision to include Dad Clarkson without securing an image of him? I just don't think it adds up regardless of how much it resembles the A & G portrait of his brother from a decade earlier. Remember, they are brothers so the resemblance should be expected.<br /><br />Edited to add: Furthermore, with the Ewing examples of the set. There is a Cleveland and Cincinatti version of the card. In 1894 Ewing played for Cleveland, in 95 for Cincinatti. With so many careful alterations and amendments made to other cards in the same set I don't see how a mistake such as this, if it were a mistake, would have not been corrected. If there was meant to be a John Clarkson card in the set there would have been a second version.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>Maybe Net 54 collectors should vote on this. Or maybe we could have a poll. John or Dad? <br /><br />As a Cardinal collector, I would love this card to be considered Dad Clarkson. It would represent the "first" Cardinal card to me. Having said that, I would have to cast my vote to John Clarkson. <br /><br />One question that has not been answered is WHY would Dad Clarkson get a card in the first place? He was 8-17 with a 6.36 ERA in 1894. If they wanted a Cardinal in the set, Ted Breitenstein who won 27 games, Doggie Miller who hit .339, and Roger Connor hitting .321 would be more logical choices. <br /><br />Even with 1895 thought processes taken into consideration, I don't see why Dad Clarkson should have gotten a card. <br /><br />Beckett alphabetical does list this card as Dad-his only one. John Clarkson on the other hand, has 21 entries.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I collect m101-4s and m101-5s, and can tell you that the creator of those sets took great care also, making several changes between the two sets, including the correction of wrong photos. Presumably he too would have had his act together beforehand and yet changes were needed. In fact there still remains an uncorrected photo in the m101-4 set. Many post-war sets have them, why can you not believe it could happen to Mayo? As was stated, Dad was traded in the summer of '95, yet Mayo neither noted the change in team nor corrected the photo. Perhaps either the project was finished, they didn't notice or didn't care. <br /><br />As for that photo, ask yourself how the photographer would have even thought of, much less have had such success in having young Arthur strike the exact same pose, complete with the hat dimple in the same place, and if so, why?. You have a better chance convincing me that John had announced a comeback with St. Louis and that prompted the Mayo card being issued than you do convincing me that that photo is of Arthur.<br /><br />As for consdering the card a common, to each his own. I find it silly to the extreme to pay Cy Young prices for a card that does not depict him, but on which someone merely printed his name. Same goes for the Bill Terry cards I mentioned. But hey, c'est la vie.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Here is REA's catalog description of the Mayo Clarkson to be offered this Spring:<br /><br />"Graded EX/NM 80 by SGC. 1895 N300 Mayo's Cut Plug of Hall of Famer John Clarkson. Only one example has ever been graded higher (at NM 84). This is an absolutely outstanding high-grade example of what is considered by many to be legendary John Clarkson's most impressive card. It is also a fascinating card in that even though Clarkson is pictured with St. Louis, he actually retired the previous year, after his final season with Cleveland in 1894, and never played with St. Louis at all. The explanation for this is either that Clarkson was expected to join St. Louis and did not, or that this card was intended to feature Arthur Clarkson, John's brother, who did in fact play for St. Louis from 1893 to 1895, and they got their pictures mixed up. The card is virtually flawless in all respects, with perfect contrast and surface, and just some very light edge and corner wear, as is almost always the case with Mayos due to their condition-sensitive flush-to-the-border design. The reverse of the card is also perfectly clean with no flaws. The Mayo set includes many of the most striking portrait cards of many very significant nineteenth-century players. This is an impressive high-grade example, one of the finest in the world, of one of John Clarkson's most classic and interesting cards from this extremely important and popular nineteenth-century series. Reserve $1,000. Estimate $2,000+."<br /> <br />The comparison image REA sent of John Clarkson was copyrighted 1888. I have sent it to Leon to post inasmuch as the file size I received it in is too large and Leon is much more adept than I in reducing it to postable size. Not knowing how it will appear when Leon posts it, here is my take.<br /><br />That 1888 image of John Clarkson is almost certainly the same image as appears in the Mayo set. Based on that conclusion, coupled with both the known custom of tobacco companies to use earlier images as well as the dead-on resemblance of the person depicted on the N300 Clarkson card to John Clarkson, my leap of the faith that the N300 card of Clarkson depicts John Clarkson and not his brother is sufficiently small that I would be comfortable purchasing the card believing it depicts John Clarkson. Yes I would like to see an image of his brother too, but in the absence of same am okay believing it depicts John.<br /><br />I also believe the tobacco company intended the image to depict John. After all, the cards were inserted to sell the tobacco product, and who would be expected to provide more of an inducement to buy the tobacco product, the famous John or his obscure brother? <br /><br />This instance is distinguishable from the instances of card names not being of the persons depicted on the cards. Here we have an image of John Clarkson with a name of "Clarkson" on the card. So the image does match the name. What it doesn't match is the team name on the jersey. That IMO is not enough to warrant a change in the catalog depiction. In addition, I always thought it stupid to catalog a card based on the name rather than the image. Yes of course you'd like the two to match, but to me as a collector what the image shows is more important than what the card says. Therefore even if the name read A. Clarkson, in the absence of knowing John Clarkson had a brother who looked just like him, for my nickel I would always regard it to be a card of John Clarkson, and would expect it to be cataloged as such.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1205958822.JPG">

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>In regards to the Irv (CY) Young cards, you collectors spending big $$$'s on that card should know that Irv Young also went by the nickname of "Young Cy" or "Cy the second" so I don't think it was a mistake that the cards that picture him have the caption "Cy" on them. They were not meant IMO to be Hall of Famer Cy Young. <br /><br />The Mayo Clarkson card was probably supposed to be Dad, but it clearly pictures John Clarkson. That one was a clear mistake by the Mayo company.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Greetings everyone. I sure started an interesting thread with my question. I wonder if John Clarkson was going to play for ST Louis and then decided to retire and the company had already produced his card. Could the answer be this simple? It is a great thread though. I want to thank everyone here for persuing the discussion. I was thinking of buying the card at some point in the future but will put that on hold until a final outcome is decided.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>It seems clear to me that when there is confusion on who is depicted and a Hall of Famer is involved the card tends to grouped into the "Hall of Famer" group. In this case they obviously depicted John Clarkson and it will likely never suffer from any real decrease in price due to that fact. <br /><br />This card has much more going for it than the aforementioned Irv Young card or the E254 Kelly<br />-Rhett

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>I was thinking of buying the card at some point in the future but will put that on hold until a final outcome is decided<br /><br />Richard, you could be waiting a long, long, time for a final outcome. This debate has been going on for years. Its a classic card regardless. I wouldn't wait for someone else to "classify" it. <br /><br />You can pretty much call it who you want. Thats what most of us are doing right now. Regards, Randy

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>In my opinion (for whatever that's worth) The Mayo Clarkson should be considered a "John Clarkson" card because it depicts him. Just call it an uncorrected error. Now the Irv Young card is Irv Young - Not Hall of Famer Cy Young and I don't understand anyone paying a premium for that card especially in light of the fact that Irv was nicknamed "Cy".

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Dan, with the Young E97 I believe it is also due to the fact that the team indicated is that of "Cy" and not "Lil' Cy"<br />-Rhett

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>There is that, but I still think that the picture is the most important aspect of a card. If a card labeled "Albert Pujols" actually pictured David Eckstein would collectors consider that card an Albert Pujols card?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Maybe the HOF has a photo of his brother you can use to compare.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The image is John Clarkson with 100% certainty. It was pointed out earlier that a player's head was often superimposed onto a hand drawn uniform.<br /><br />I think somewhere in the process the artist drew the wrong uniform for John, having confused him with his brother. The card got into circulation without ever being corrected.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>IMO its a John Clarkson card. It picture John, the team name added to the jersey is just wrong.<br /><br />I think Mayo picked up a rumor he was going to St. Louis, but he never did. He might have wanted to play his last year with his brother. ???

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Ken W.</b><p>The card is obviously a JOHN Clarkson card!!! It's the image that counts, not the jersey, or even what is printed. Those might be mistakes, but any HOF collector would still consider the card as being of the person depicted. Especially if the image is a photo! Here is another John:<br /><br /><img src="http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s290/triwak/91.jpg"><br />

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Greetings everyone. It sounds like the dust is settling in this thread. So what is the consesus of the board at this point? Do most of you consider this a John Clarkson Hall of Famer card? <br />Thanks

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>is this witch hunt over? It sure looks like John to me...regardless of whether the team name is incorrect. it'd sure be easier to change the team name than to cut and paste bodies and heads.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Harry Wallace (HW)</b><p>IMHO, the image is definitely John Clarkson which originates from teh same that is used for his N28 card.<br /><br />I would also classify it as a John Clarkson card, which seems to be the consensus here.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>The consensus is that image is definitely John. <br /><br />The unsettled questions are:<br />1)Who did Mayo intend to picture on the card?<br />2)If Dad Clarkson was intended, does that make it a card of Dad and not John?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Addie_Joss</b><p>I still think the intention is clear that it was supposed to be a Dad Clarkson card because of the year it was printed and the team designation. I don't think it was an accident that they featured Clarkson palying for St. Louis in 1895, which should be a clear indicator that Dad Clarkson was intended to be included in the set. <br /><br />As I said before, there are plenty of examples of HOFer cards that are only HOFer cards in name because they don't feature an image of the HOF player. Some examples have been discussed, such as the Bill Terry card. The Bill Terry card is only a Bill Terry card because of the name and not the image. Using that same standard, I don't see how you can then say that this is a John Clarkson card even though it seems extremely likely it is supposed to be Dad Clarkson just because of the image on the card. If you go by name designation for every other instance, why change the way you catalogue a card this time? If image is not what makes a card of a particular player, but rather the name on the card and the card's intention to feature that player, why are so many of you veering towards the image determining the player this time?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>The image is correct...the name is correct...the team name is not...could have been a simple mistake...since the bro was on st louis...why is this such a big deal...Addie?

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Addie, I hear your argument but the "name" designation is tricky in this instance. If the Mayo card said 'Dad Clarkon", or "D. Clarkson" or A. Clarkson", I think we would have a totally different outcome. However, in this case, the Mayo card simply says "Clarkson" and features a picture of John Clarkson.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>In my opinion the IMAGE should ALWAYS determine the card. the E97 Young is NOT Cy Young. The Mayo Clarkson IS John Clarkson. You can collect any way you like, there are no rules, no committee to make a final determination. It is all opinion. If you think that people are going to start selling the Mayo Clarkson for "common" prices no matter what Mayo's intentions were with the card you're dreaming.<br /><br />edited spelling

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>i kinda agree with you Dan...I'd be hard pressed to pay thousands of dollars for an e Cy Young depicting Irv.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Here are some Clarkson images that I forgot I had...they came from the Culver archives.<br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/Vintage%20Baseball%20Memorabilia/?action=view&current=clarkson2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/Vintage%20Baseball%20Memorabilia/clarkson2.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/Vintage%20Baseball%20Memorabilia/?action=view&current=clarkson3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/Vintage%20Baseball%20Memorabilia/clarkson3.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br />

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>One of the most egregious vintage card errors, mainly because it is so valuable, is the Yum Yum of Ned Williamson that is captioned Adrian Anson. Although I have only seen it transacted a few times, I've never once seen anyone refer to the player as Williamson. Every seller tries to take advantage since cards of Anson will sell for multiples.<br /><br />I think the deciding factor in any card should be the image, and not the caption. It's still unclear what the consensus is on the E97 Young, partly because it is an action pose and the face is a bit indistinct anyway. But with any portrait card, such as the N300 Clarkson, the photo supersedes the name (or the uniform).

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Here the "image" is pulling both ways - you could say someone added the wrong head to the right body or the wrong body to the correct head. Perhaps to further refine it, you mean the face pictured dictates whose card it is. Of course, cards like E91s then become interesting...

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>In this case they didn't just put his head on a St Louis uniform they just took the picture of Clarkson in his Boston uniform and "painted" a St Louis uniform over it. You can see with the folds in the uniform that it is his Boston uniform.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think we agree that in this case the N300 pictures John Clarkson. There may be reason to look at these cards on a case by case basis, but the portrait takes huge precedence over everything else. In the case of the N300, it appears that the portrait and the uniform were joined by separate steps.<br /><br />Interesting piece of trivia: the N172 Anson in Uniform, certainly one of the great rarities in the hobby, is actually Cap Anson's head superimposed onto Ned Williamson's body. I haven't a clue why this was done.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Because on the day the photos were taken in Chicago Anson had a dentist appointment. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Actually I can kind of see Anson being cranky about having to change into uniform to get his picture taken...he was a rather cranky dude. While a lot of guys posed for many different shots I would bet Anson sat down had his pic taken and was out of there.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Barry - Anson was mistaken for Williamson on two different cards? That's freaky.

1895 N300 John Clarkson
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It is funny, but they were long time teammates.