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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Hmm...dumb move??? I know its not no 8.5...I'm "hoping" its a 3.... and not trimmed??<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320187756541" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320187756541</a><br /><br /><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/asphaltman76/t204plank.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>dave...sweet card...i'm no ramly expert...but i'm suspicious.<br /><br />good luck!<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>well...I "think" the borders look ok..but would like a Ramly expert to chime in...lol.<br /><br />The seller does sell alot of cards from this company...so it wasn't like he just sells PSA and then this popped up...we'll see...I've gambled before and been ok and vice versa.

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Posted By: <b>bigfish</b><p>Dave,<br />I was tempted myself. Top to bottom looks funky. Nice card if it grades

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Sure looks authentic so no need to bring that up.<br /><br />I cant say if its trimmed or not just from looking at the scan, but even if worst case scenario comes true and it ends up trimmed, it has such nice eye appeal it might be worth close to what you paid. If its not trimmed then you got a heck of a deal.<br /><br />In any case its a beautiful card for under $2K

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Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>What would it have gone for in a PSA Authentic slab?

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>The top definately looks narrow..but then again the bottom border looks to make up for it...pretty big bottom border, and the card does look kind of like a diamond cut...faily off center....<br /><br />Does anyone see the mark that is maybe 1/3 of a way down on the right side? I couldn't make up mind mind if this was part of a scratch on the card...or on the holder?

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Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>That bottom border looks trimmed. It's in a CSA holder, which accounts for the grade.<br /><br /><br />Bill

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>either way, send it to SGC &/or PSA and see what happens...even if it's just an "A" grade, get it out of the CSA holder.<br /><br />good luck.

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Dave - I'm curious... let's assume for a second it isn't trimmed (by the way, I have no opinion on trimming, but let's assume it isn't trimmed), what would make you think it is a 3? I'm just wondering what you see that I don't. That card has great eye appeal!

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>tiny crease right side edge might make it a 4. If its even a crease.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Jon-<br /><br />Well....IF it isn't trimmed..I'm still wondering about that mark 1/3 from the top on the right side. If that is a scratch on the holder and not the card, then great. But saying a 3, was pretty much saying what I think it would have to grade to recoup the money thrown at it...trimmed or less than a 3 won't recoup $2000<br /><br />But hey..I like to roll the dice now and then <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Another thing that you sometimes find is recoloring of the gold edges, not that I see any sign of it. But then again it would still have a good value even in an "A" holder IMO <br /><br /><br />Keep us updated if you cross it over Dave.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />I'd be perfectly happy with that card in an Auth. holder. Its a beauty even if its trimmed (and I have no idea if it is or not).

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Sure, maybe it's got something wrong with it. In fact, it likely does.<br /><br />But it's an absolutely beautiful Ramly, and I would have bid on it if I'd seen it. Gorgeous, gorgeous card. Excellent pickup.<br /><br />edited to remove "probably"<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>The other thing Jon that would keep the grade down if it would receive a numerical grade would be that mark on the back.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>wonka bought a brown and plank ramly sgc A last year in mastro for what i thought was a GREAT deal at around $800 each...this one meh. if it's a 3 you would've done well. in the wrong hand if submitted enough times it'll get a 4 or 5...i'm sure of that.<br /><br />there were 3 bids within $100 so you couldn't have done that bad.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Wow...beautiful card either way. Nice pickup Dave.

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Posted By: <b>Brad</b><p>On the left side you can clearly see it's been trimmed.<br /><img src="http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j136/MapleCrispetteV117/Canadian%20Type%20Cards/Virtual%20Want%20List/0002.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>does this mean there may be e98's for sale soon?<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Pete,<br /><br />No.<br /><br />Now if I really lucked out and this isnt trimmed or altered then it means I'd be buying a few more E98's. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>a lot more e98's!!!<br /><br />pete

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Brad...you said left side? How can you tell? I need the education...<br /><br /><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/asphaltman76/t204plankback.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Brad</b><p>using the program Picasa2 you can cut and straighten the image, so it's easier to determine if the card is abnormally shaped "not square", must be trimmed, why else would it be graded CSA.

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Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>The bottom left corner is bat-eared. The bottom border slants up vertically and then back down again. I was 99% certain it was trimmed when I first saw it. Any card in a CSA holder should always raise a gigantic red flag. I expect it would get an "auth" grade from SGC or PSA.<br /><br /><br />Bill

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>I agree the corners are almost too sharp and might be "bateared". But its tough to be certain from a scan.<br /><br />Also an unaltered card can have opposite edges be parallel yet the card doesnt have square corners. These cards would be said to have a "diamond cut".<br /><br />The back sort of looks that way, but the front doesnt make the card look as diamond cut as the back does, and its ever so slight on the back.<br /><br />Like Bill said the biggest redflag is the CSA slab.<br /><br />You never know though. You will just need to send it in to be certain.<br /><br />Maybe it was "found" by a noncollector and just submited to the first grading company they saw???? The seller sure doesnt look to sell vintage cards much and has many cards graded by weak grading companies like GEM.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>one good thing seems to be the csa holders are in sequential order, so i guess it was part of a large submission. don't know enough about the characteristics of ramlys to comment so i'll defer to people like frank, bill, scott, peter etc with better knowledge.

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>I think you should be OK...its a very nice looking card. The only thing would be that Mark on the back, is it a pen or pencil? You can't tell from the scan, maybe you will be able to tell when you get the card.

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Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Dave -<br />I wish you all the luck in the world with that card,<br />but a card of that magnitude in a CSA holder scares<br />the hell out of me. Good luck with it man.<br /><p><br />Tony

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Posted By: <b>Paul Moss</b><p>Call it a hunch, but I do not believe that card is in a CSA holder for mere aesthetic reasons.

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Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p>Amazing card, non the less. Thanks for showing it!

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I say crack it out and send it to SGC.<br /><br /><br />To me.... its worth just as much in an SGC 'A' holder as it is in the CSA holder -<br />and hopefully you get a number grade out of it.<br /><br /><br />Either way its a nice looking card - congrats.<br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i agree totally Joe...<br /><br />Dave- DO NOT send it to PSA or SGC in the CSA holder, it's suicide...make sure you crack it first...<br /><br />hopefully that goes without saying.

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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>I'm guessing it's probably slightly trimmed, but man is it sharp looking. <br /><br />I would drink a few beers and crack it out and try SGC or PSA; assuming it grades it looks like a 5(MK) or 6(MK) or a 50? Any Authentic grade would get you back to even price wise I would think.<br /><br />I guess if worst comes to worst PRO would probably grade it? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />sdbh

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>how are those slabs to crack out? it looks like it may be a toughie with all the adhesion points there?<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>keyway</b><p>Looks like a nice card to me. Seems like everyone on here can't wait to tear a card up.

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>keywey...ordinarily you're right!!! But in this case I...and most others...are just giving their/my honest opinion on this card. I certainly have no vested interest either way.<br /><br />peter ullman

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>no one here is tearing up this card...it is a beautiful card, we are just concerned that it is in a CSA holder (i.e. trimmed). many of us have similar concerns about PRO cards. i consider Dave a friend and have already wished him well.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Not to mention Dave asked for the collective opinions with this question "how big of a mistake did I make??"

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>I am sure it's already out of that CSA holder by now, and it does look like it might be trimmed on the sides, but what incredible presentation!<br /><br />I suppose the answer to your question only depends on whether you bought it to sell it. If so, then the size of your mistake will be limited to ther difference, but if not, then no mistake at all!!!<br />Enjoy!<br /><br />(and if you do crossover, crack out and good luck with it!)<br />

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>i tied my best to enlarge it for you Dave...the arrows show that it looks like a small wrinkle (i could be wrong) at top/middle right. The bottom left corner and top corner looks weird. Its not the best enlargement but you may see what i mean.<br /><br /><img src="http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x198/SquareframeRamly/newplank.jpg">?t=1196706345

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Mark's right side arrow appears to point to some re-coloring on the right edge. The bottom definitely looks trimmed. It is a beautiful card though.

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>I'm guessing that card is still $1500-$2000 even cleaned, colored, and trimmed. If you get it into a real company's holder with a grade it will be worth multiples of that. It seems like your gambling $300-$500 with a shot at winning several thousand. This is assuming that it is a real card. Maybe it would be worth striking a deal with Kevin to get a feel ahead of time to determine what type of work if any has been done on the card.

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Posted By: <b>kirk</b><p>Although on a smaller scale, I was in a predicament recently in deciding to bid on a yogi berra rookie graded a 9 by CSA. I decided not to bid at all when the bidding went over $450 because I simply don't trust the company at all. The bidding went to $480, which more than book for an SGC or PSA 6... And what are the chances it would get to my house an even BE a 6... Or even real at all. I don't have that much $ toi make a gamble... Even though I really want the card. Good luck with this though...

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Guys...I definately knew I was taking a gamble here. I am guessing there is a 90% chance it goes into a authentic holder...10% chance I get lucky. Sometimes its fun to gamble a bit...wouldn't be any different than if I went to Vegas for a weekend <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. <br /><br />And yes..I'll crack it out before sending it to one of the grading companies. It seems like there are alot of cards in authentic holder that even when trimmed or whatever still seem to garner a good bit at auction..just because they are eye appealing. Its funny I've seen Ty Cobb cards in authentic holder sell for what some SGC 30's and such would go for...this will be interesting and I'll update folks.

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>Not all AUT grades are trimmed. My T204 Square Frame Ramly Dineen is in a SGC AUT holder and its NOT trimmed, just a small piece of tape on back holding a corner together.<br /><br />You have been lucky lately Dave so you never know.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />Funny you mentioned coloring in the top corner. You could very well be right...but is interesting someone would have done that, and not made some attempt at getting rid of the mark on the back of the card....at least it strikes me as odd. <br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>"It seems like there are alot of cards in authentic holder that even when trimmed or whatever still seem to garner a good bit at auction..just because they are eye appealing"...<br /><br />dave- you are correct, we had a thread a month or so back discussing this fact. i think since SGC & PSA recently starting doing their "AUTH" grades, it has given life and value to cards that were once frowned-upon becasue they were "altered". <br /><br />best of luck, hope you score!

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Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p>I am curious how one approaches this -- do you submit it as a cross-over in the slab or do you bust it out and submit it raw? Does it matter? Why does it matter?

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Adam-<br /><br />I don't think I would submit this in the slab its in. I think good or bad common perception by everyone is that with it being in this slab something must be wrong with it. <br /><br />It is an interesting idea though IF it passes by any of the graders to talk with Kevin about the possibility of looking at it. Although if slabbed I don't know how easily he could do that. <br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>as mentioned above, in such a case you absolutely crack-it out. if you send PSA or SGC a card in a CSA or PRO holder, then there is already this assumption that it has been altered, because those companies are notorious for slabbing altered cards. so by sending it in raw, they will look at it with no preconceived notions. gabeesh?

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p> I believe Kevin does his checking of a card even though its slabbed.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Good luck on your gamble.<br /><br />As for cracking out, my guess is that SGC will know where this card came from no matter how you submit it. They read these boards.<br /><br />My money is on a AUTH holder, but I hope I am wrong.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>By the way...I posed the question above but it may get lost in the shuffle, I know Steve and a couple others looked at the possibility of the card being recolored, which is I guess fairly common with these Ramlys. But does anybody think that would have been done and no effort would have been made to get the mark off the back of the card? Trimming is obviously the major concern to me..I think. <br /><br />Edited to say, I did communicate to someone about this card that is probably one of the most knowledgeable in the field about Ramlys (I'll leave his name private) and his concern bordered more on the card possibly being too oversized and not trimmed....which I guess would still just garner a grade of AUTH.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>On T204, T205 and N300's, the tips of the cards are notoriously known for being recolored. I thought I saw it on one of the tips on your card too...but too hard to tell from scan. I have had, and seen, many with this issue. Good luck on the card you bought.....If I had to take a guess I think it will be trimmed and recolored....but that is absolutely a guess....regards

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Posted By: <b>Peter Thomas</b><p>Dave, I think that the card will grade either aut. or a 6. I have an oversized Plank that must have come from the sheet that was cut 10 or so years ago, so I don't think that it came from that sheet. I would look at card under black light to check for recoloring, but I don't think that it is recolored. The mark on the front looks like a fingernail indentation and the mark on the back looks like a dirt smudge. I think that the card may be slightly trimmed. I think SGC will have seen the card and would recognize it if you break it out, PSA probably not. SGC did grade many cards cut from that sheet years ago (they regret having graded them). I had my oversized Plank placed in an aut. holder and it looks great, your card looks even better.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Thanks for the info Peter. Yours is definately one of the opinions I was wanting. <br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>G. MAINES</b><p>Roll the dice again!<br /><br />Crack it out and don't slab it.<br />Put it on the b/s/t raw.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>peter is right...sgc seems to be right on these kind of things. i think they have someone monitor the board and ebay etc.<br /><br />leon, i can see the next board contest. will dave crack/resubmit or cross in the holder? AUT or #? if AUT then for what? If numerical then what grade? PSA or SGC? etc etc etc. we can have a full blown 20 question test in scantron form for a big Christmas prize <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Ahh you might be unto something Gil-<br /><br />instead of cracking it out a CSA 8.5 Plank, looking for E98's Matty, Cobb, and Wagner straight up...maybe I'll list it tonight! lol.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Maybe it would be worth striking a deal with Kevin to get a feel ahead of time to determine what type of work if any has been done on the card."<br /><br /><br /><br />I'd do it for free.<br /><br /><br /><br />Kevin

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>You and i may have something in the works.... (:

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>It is funny Mark. There are a couple people that if lightening struck twice for me and this card did get a numerical grade that I'd obviously be willing to deal with ahead of just anyone else....but even with all the negative vibes about the card I've received some amusing offers for it as is, in its CSA state. <br /><br />Heck, I even got an offer for a straight up deal on a E98 Matty SGC 10 worth probably $800 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p>Dave did you get my email? I never heard back from you.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Ben, if your being serious...then no I didn't get one from you.<br /><br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p>Yes, I'm serious. I've been having problems with my hotmail account which is why I was asking. I'll try again through yahoo.

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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>Zooming in on the large scan the corners seemed to be touched up...I'm not sure if this is altering but if it came back only recolored (not trimmed) could you wear down the corners to remove the color? It could still probably get it to grade a 3 or 4?<br /><br />sdbh

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>By the way...over the next couple days if anyone has ever busted out one of these CSA slabs I'd love to hear the best way to do it...the only ones I've ever done were SGC which were pretty easy with a flathead, obviously I don't want to screw this card up getting it out.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dave- yesterday I tried breaking open a PRO slab for one of my consignors and for the life of me I couldn't find the seam. Finally, I called SGC and they said just submit it as is and they would break it for me. How do you open a PRO holder?

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Barry...I've never tried a PRO holder either..but there is no way I'm submitting the card in the holder its in now..and I don't think in your case I'd submit one in a PRO holder either.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'm fully aware that every card in a PRO holder is subject to doubt. But I refuse to sell it in a PRO, so either it will be graded NR MT or Authentic. That's a risk we have to take.

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>Try this: Take a hack saw or small saw and cut off a small area near the 8.5 corner. Then use a flat head screwdriver and start to pry the cut corner open. As you do this the card should be on a flat surface with a towel below it. once it starts to separate use your fingers to help take off the top.<br /><br />Of course be as gentle as possible....<br /><br />I took one card out of a PRO holder and if i remember it was a bit tough but it came out undamaged. Never did a CSA but i am sure it will crack out just as the other graders do.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Ive never opened up a pro or csa slab, but I open sgc and psa slabs the same way - take a small, handheld trimmer (like you'd use for trimming plants or small branches) and cut off one corner of the slab (preferably up where the flip is located). Once you have removed the corner, stick in a screw driver and separate the two halves. Very easy, just be careful of flying plastic when you cut off the corner.<br /><br />I use something like this:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-Traditional-Power-Lever-Anvil-Pruner/dp/B000NU4YL8/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-Traditional-Power-Lever-Anvil-Pruner/dp/B000NU4YL8/</a>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>SGC and PSA are easy to open...and I got a couple of cards from CTA whom I had never heard of before. Those were rather easy too. It took just a few seconds to find the seam.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I second Josh's method.<br /><br />snip a corner.... then work the screwdriver.... watch out for flying plastic when you snip.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Jones</b><p>Another point I would add is to keep the slab flat on a table during this process. If the slab is tipped vertically there is a possibility that the card will slide down and get pinched in the holder (could leave an indent on the card).

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>I have successfully used a tile nippers to clip a corner off. (These are usually used to cut little pieces of ceramic tile.) Little "bites" to start. Once you have an opening, the flat head to pry it open is the best. <br /><br />They look like a pliers with a cutting blade turned sideways. You can pick them up at any Lowes, Home Depot, or hardware store. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Tough-GT-Tile-Nippers/dp/B000MDA3MA" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Tough-GT-Tile-Nippers/dp/B000MDA3MA</a>

ok...T204 Ramly Plank...how big of a mistake did I make??
 

Posted By: <b>Mike Snyder</b><p>I have always found that a band saw is most effective.<br />It will cut right through the plastic cleanly.<br />You must position the card where the cut will be close enough to the card so that it will just slip out when finished.<br />Tried and true!

ok...T204 Ramly Plank...how big of a mistake did I make??
 

Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>light saber...<br /><br />cleanest.cut.ever!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/zoom/lightsaber-4up.jpg">

ok...T204 Ramly Plank...how big of a mistake did I make??
 

Posted By: <b>Bob Lamb</b><p>Try a dremel tool with a small cutting bit...Bob