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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Leon said I could post something on this EBAY transaction/Problem?<br /><br />Purchased a card for around $1200.00 a few years ago on EBAY. Received the card, left positive feedback, wrong to do this but was my 1st year on EBAY. Sent the card to SGC, they sent it back as a counterfeit. Notified seller, would not return the money, many emails and phone calls no positive response, told me I could have switched the card. Even told me the card was once in an SGC slab and he did not agree with the grade, so he took it out. I don't believe that story. I still have the card, the original ebay listing, the SGC plastic that calls it counterfeit. <br /><br />Well this guy just bid and won an auction I had this weekend, a card for about 1/3 that price, $400.00. I emailed him and said sorry I cannot sell the card to you because of prior problems. He has already paid with PAYPAL and wants me to cancel the sale. I basically told him he can cancel if he wants the money back. I really don't want to make it easy for him. <br /><br />I have since put him on my blocked biddder list.<br /><br />Comments?<br /><br />Thanks joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>He won the card and paid for it, you are obligated to sell it to him.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Are you thinking of pocketing the $400 as a way to recover part of your money? Sounds reasonable on the surface, but there may be something illegal about it. But what other recourse do you have?

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Show him the character and class he didn't show you -- return the money.

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Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>"But what other recourse do you have?"<br />Track him down and beat him like a woman.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>Do you risk anything by revealing the name of this dirtbag? <br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>I would just refund him his money..and drop him a note refreshing his memory or what happened a few years ago..."because you chose not to be a stand up seller at that time, here is your money back. I also hope I don't have anything else for sale you'll ever be interested in, because your now officially on my blocked bidder's list. Have a great day."

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Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Brian's right, because if you don't then you become one of "them". However, if you can't bring yourself to do that then do what David describes. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Shawn Chambers</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />I remember reading your original post about the Cobb card...<br /><br />If you decide to go through with selling this card to this guy (don't guess you have much of a choice)...make SURE his paypal address is confirmed and make SURE you send it in some trackable manner. <br /><br />You wouldn't want to ship and have the old "I never received it..." and then have to fight with him and paypal. Not saying he would try this, but since you two have a history and he seems less than honorable...well...<br /><br />Good luck!<br /><br />Shawn

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Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Joe,<br />I would probably follow thru with the sale. At least its 400 for the sale and I would assume you made a little money on that item . Send it with delivery confirm and a signature. I had this same problem happen to me with and OFF LINE sale of an item , bothered me for years!! I still have the item as a reminder. Be the bigger man and take the 400. Treat it like a regular ebay win and move on.

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Hello guys, thanks for the posts to this problem. The name of the person is Brooks Newell, San Antonio Texas. In my last note to him , he said he was tired of beating a dead horse because this was a few years ago. Well he got my money, I got a counterfeit card. That's my dead horse. Some on this board know him. Someone said he has problems with his eye sight, still no reason for the original problem. Barry, I was not planning on keeping the money, but I want to make him get the money back himself. it should not be easy for him to screw me and not suffer any repercussions. There is no easy way to get solutions to some of these EBAY problem sellers. I originally contacted EBAY, USPS, and some other Government offices to get a solution with no avail. <br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Show him the character and class he didn't show you -- return the money.

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>I've never been cheated out of such a large sum of money, but I can only hope I'd show the same character and maturity if facing a similar situation. I think Joe is handling the situation absolutely perfect. In my book, if someone has cheated you in the past, you have no obligation to assist them in any way. If the guy is stupid enough to bid on an item from someone he has cheated in the past, he should expect some inconveniences. Joe, absolutely don't sell this guy a card he wants, and don't lift a finger helping him get his "unearned" money back.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>I wouldn't sell him the card either. But I would return the money with no hassles. Two wrongs don't make a right, right?

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>Ship him back his counterfeit card and use USPS shipping confirmation. That proves delivery. He is then screwed under PayPal rules. Tell PayPal that he must have switched the card. Don't put anyting in writing to him that he can use against you. Tell him that you know that you shipped the right thing and can't believe that he is trying to pull a fast one on you. Let the weasel get some of his own medicine. (Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.)</font><br /><br />(typo corrected) <br /><br />DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Or you could do that. Vargha, you always bring a fresh perspective.

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Dave V.,<br /><br />Several thoughts come to mind:<br /><br />1. Your thought process is mean, hateful and despicable. <br /><br />2. DAMN!!! I wish I had thought of that. <br /><br />3. Remind me often, to never cross you.

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>ok let me get this straight. you bought a card. years later, you try to get it graded, and comes back counterfeit. now you want the money back. i would have to agree with the seller on this one. you purchased the card, with no written guarantee its authentic. it was poor judgement on your part for buying a fake. if you are willing to spend $1200 for a card you don't no is 100% real this is a problem. <br /><br />now with him winning a card you sold. you don't have to sell him the card, but return his money. show some respect that he doesn't have. come out with your head high. <br /><br /><br />i would swallow the lose and move on. stop dwelling on it. <br /><br />just my 2 cents

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>Several years ago, I sold a 1952 Bowman Mantle (raw) card for about $600 on eBay. About one year later, the buyer wrote back that it was a counterfeit. I refunded his money without question and apologized. I then contacted the person who had sold it to me some nine months before I had resold it, informing him that it was a fake. He refunded my money without question and apologized. How does the passage of time negate responsibility on the part of the seller?</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>T206 king, I had the card graded within 1 month of receiving the card, not years later. That's what the 1st transaction was all about.<br /><br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Joe -<br /><br />What about going over to his home & knocking on his door, bringing the card that you purchase at that time. He gives you the $1200 back & you give him that fake card back. <br /><br />Then, for this transaction, he gives you the $400 for the card he just won & you give him that correct card as he fairly won it. And, then you guys shake hands & have a couple beers together. Would that work ? Why not ?

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Peter S., By no means does anyone have to sell a card to the winner in an ebay auction. That's the way it's suppose to work but not the law.<br /><br />One of the beauties of ebay is there feedback, everyone is afraid to leave a negative in fear of retaliation. Thus it makes the feedback almost worthless.<br /><br />By the way, if you do plan on keeping the money, I would get it out of your paypal account right away. Paypal will side with the buyer 99% of the time, even if you do everything right.<br /><br />Good luck with the situation, Joe it really sucks that he would not stand behind the original transaction. I have met Brooks and he seemed like a nice guy but I have heard other stories that his eyesight has got him in trouble.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p>I would send that person a home-made counterfeit version of whatever card you sold him for $400. Just get some paper, cut it into the size of the card, and get a few markers and take a solid 10 minutes or so to "create" the card. If it ends up looking kind of like a child's drawing, that's perfectly fine. Then mail that "card" to him along with a postive note inside the package, something along the lines of "Congratulations on winning! Please leave positive feedback and I will do the same!"

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>when i first started reading the replies, i was thinking of the same exact thing that david was thinking. f&*k 'em! <br /><br />(my only negative a few years ago was a similar situation. i sold a psa 3 ruth card to someone that was hesitant about buying it, i actually let him make 2 payments. once he got the card he cried "counterfeit"<br />i told him to return the card and i would take it to psa (i'm 45 min drive) he said he would take it to a show where psa was going to be but of course that was 2 weeks away and of course they said it was fake. well, since he refused to send back the card, i refused to send back his money.)

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I know Brooks as he is a customer. I've never had a problem with him, and Joe's outcome surprises me. I know that he does have some vision problems, but that has nothing to do with the issue.

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>Thought I might add a bit to this thread as I have known Brooks for many years and sold him a lot of nice cards.<br /><br />Brooks is legally blind, his vision has worsened the last few years and he can barely see cards with out a monster size loupe, yet he still collects, due to his love for the hobby. In all probability he probably bought the card as real and never knew the difference. He used to sell quite a few cards on ebay to support his hobby and his income as he is on disability. That being said, I am sure when he was confronted about the issue he may have become defensive as people have tried to take advantage of his poor vision before and could have thought this was another incident like that. I am not condoning his actions just trying to provide a little additional info. Brooks can be very stubborn at times, especially if he believes he's right.<br /><br />On plan B about going to his door, I would nix that idea. Brooks is a very large individual. When Brooks was in the service he was the B.A.R. man. For those that are familiar with weapons you know the type of individual chosen for that assignment. <br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />That's what I call bad luck, to buy from a seller that's blind. Knowing that you got give him a break and let go of your beef.<br /><br />Now I'm upset that some scumbag took advantage of a blind man.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Brian's first response say's it best in my opinion.<br /><br />"Show him the character and class he didn't show you -- return the money".<br /><p>Tony

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Someone who is legally blind and still has the passion to collect should at least have someone look his high dollar cards over before he sells them on ebay.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>1 question: is it that good of a reprint?....how about a scan. old saying,one picture is worth a thousand words.

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Here is scan with SGC response, next day return and original ebay listing with description. The one think I did notice when I received the card is has a lacquer finish on both sides. Sorry if scans are to large.<br /><br />Joe<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1195925707.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1195925652.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1195925682.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1195925777.JPG"> <br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>thanks for the auction,i would think the seller should refund w/o question. the laquer finish you mentioned should seal the deal that it is the same card and a tell tale sign.

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>It appears the card is actually real. I think SGC missed the call on counterfeit, although it probably has been coated with something, either lacquer, shellac or glue, from the scan it certainly looks ok and I can see why Joe bid on it and why Brooks thought it was ok.<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Then in court you can prove your case, he can prove his and you end up with a net $800. <br /><br />If that doesn't sound appealing/feasible, follow the Golden Rule...cancel the sale with an explanation and refund the money or close the deal and forget about it. It's the only way to address situations like this in life. Otherwise, you open the door to all sorts of crap that isn't worth the time or the stomach acid. <br /><br />Of course, you could also put a big, honking crease down the middle of the card before you ship it; odds are he wouldn't even notice <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>what scott said could be true but maybe they(sgc) meant to check the altered box and checked the counterfit by mistake. i would certainly send it back and see what happens as the card looks ok in the scan.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I'm so upset about all of this. First some scumbag rips off a blind guy. And then a blind guy rips off Joe. And now everyone wants to help Joe rip off the blind guy who ripped off Joe but who surely got ripped off by the scumbag. Third base!<br /><br />I'm very upset but that's just the litigator in me.<br /><br />Notice the lack of inclusion of any smileys in this post. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>That Cobb is pretty close, but certainly counterfeit. <br /><br />I'd keep the money and send him a print of a horses ass -with signature confirmation of course. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity at retribution... To heck with karma. You've already been good about it -where did it get you. If he wants to push the issue, to me, it would be worth all the aggravation. I want to look up to ya Joe -nail 'em.

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>Read the auction, doesnt say 100% authentic. buyers fault!

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>I don't understand how this is the sellers fault. The seller never said in the auction that the card is 100% authentic ! He just states that its a t205 Cobb card. If you weren't 100% sure of it being authentic, then you shouldn't have bid on the card... espcially if its $1200. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if someone is willing to spend $1200 on a card that he/she doesn't know if its real, than you shouldn't be bidding on prewar baseball cards.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I'm sure I'm just a bit tired but are you guys serious? If a seller advertises a card as a T205 he also has to say 100% authentic too in order for the buying public to understand it is not a fake? Do you think the seller might have assumed that a buyer spending $1200 on a card presumed that the card was real and not a ten cent fake? If the card is advertised as a T205 it is presumed authentic unless there is a disclaimer included in the listing. If the card is a fake it is NOT a T205.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>tough crowd... if you are an HONEST seller any buyer should assume a card listed as this (1909 t206, 1933 goudey etc)listed in the proper catagory is buying a legit card. it does not have to be slabbed to be real.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>People that support crooked sellers scare me... By listing in the Pre-1930 category, isn't it a reasonable assumption that the item is Pre-1930. Get a clue

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Does anyone know if anyone from SGC reads this board? It's difficult for me to believe that SGC would mark the wrong box on this one. But, if they did and someone from SGC can look at the scan, I would be happy to send it back to them for another look if they think there is a chance for a grade or authenticate. I see 1 from the board says definitly not real and another thinks it is real.<br /><br />Thanks Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Many, if not all, of the guys at SGC read this board....I thought the card looked good too but I have been fooled before. Also, I am in the minority but if someone sold me a fake and it was not refunded then I would consider the newest issue as partial payment for their not making good on it. I also consider Brooks a good guy and a friend...but this was not handled well, imo. A refund should have been given. He should have got the card back and dealt with it on his end. regards

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joe- my gut is they checked the wrong box. The card looks real but with a slight trim to the bottom border. Maybe they were distracted and just made a mistake.

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Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>Some thoughts -<br /><br />1. I may not be real bright, but the back of that card would have kept me from putting a serious bid on this card. <br /><br />2. I also would have wondered why the seller wouldn't have graded this card to maximize the potential.<br /><br />3. The seller is absolutely at fault on this. He sold this card as a 1911 T205, not a 1970's reprint. <br /><br />Good luck! Let us know how this works out. <br /><br />Rick

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>I would send it in to GAI (are they still in business)? and then hope 'Darren' calls and says he has a buyer for it.<br /><br /><br />Joe I sympathise with you. Any seller worth his salt would refund if a card came back like yours did. The seller in question seems to be ok to some so he is not an outright thief. 4 yrs ago i paid over 2k for a coin from a big time dealer. It was graded by a 'Gem' type grading company. After a few years had passed I sent it into PCGS for grading and it was not what the original grading company said it was. (I am not disputing the grade) I called the dealer and after a few hoops he made me jump thru he refunded my 2k+. At this point i would resubmit it to SGC and see what happens, like you stated here some say it is fake while others claim it is ok. I have no idea, you have the card in hand and should be able to make some sort of conclusion. In any event i wish you the best of luck regarding this as no one should take that type of hit.<br /><br />In closing I have no idea if the seller of this card got scammed or where or when the scam (if it is in fact a counterfeit) strted.<br /><br />1 more thing........expressed above is simply opinion and not stated as fact.<br /><br /><br />I think i covered myself here from unsolicited advice in which the advisor was gratious enough not to charge me for.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Hello Barry, they checked the counterfeit box, but look at my scans again, on the front of the toploader in large capital letters COU.<br /><br /><br />As a side note, I can fight my battles, but it sounds like a few of you know Newell personally, I'm wondering if anyone as a friend of his, has contacted him about this? He certainly was never friendly with me on this transaction and I got nowhere with him. <br /><br />Joe<br /><br />Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>For those not seeing the flaws in the counterfeit...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1195951614.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joe- if that's a counterfeit, and I'm the first to admit that it's difficult to authenticate from a scan, it's a pretty scary one. Look at the wear on the top two corners- unlike all the fake aging done to cards, that looks like honest wear. Boy, that one could fool a lot of people.

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>well you cant "assume" a card is real. its like assuming a car runs good. then when you buy it, its a lemon. just learn from the experience. be cautious next time.

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>T206King, of course we can't assume a card is real, but like the majority on the board have said, the seller should stand by his goods. Especially if it is someone known by some of the NET54 board members. <br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Bill, you CAN asume a card is real if it is sold by a seller in the pre-1930 category on ebay. Your car analogy makes no sense -- unless you think it is appropriate for someone who purchased a Toyota Camry on ebay not to have standing to complain if, after the car was delivered, he found out that it was really a cardboard cut-out of the car and not a Camry.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I am with Brockelman on this one. I know Brooks well and would be shocked if he tried to pass off a reproduction as real. JUST BECAUSE SGC SAYS IT IS FAKE does not mean it is fake. My apologies to you grading fanatics. SGC employees are human just like we are and my money is on me and several board members over SGC as far as determining a forgery. Everyone just assumed that the card was fake without asking to see it??? Well it looks real in the scan but possibly thin. Maybe SGC meant to check trimmed instead of forgery?? All of you just jumped on the SGC band wagon immediately like that was the gospel, too funny. I think SGC does a decent job overall, but mistakes can happen. My call is to resubmit it now, sell old Brooks the card he rightfully won, my guess is that it will be slabbed or marked as trimmed. Dan.<P>Scott I read your 2nd post! Browning Automatic Rifle! That is a great weapon and a very heavy 1 to carry in combat. The Navy had them as part of teams basic load, 1 B.A.R. and usually the largest and strongest individual was assigned the weapon.

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>1.) You need to figure out if the Cobb is good. Look closely at the edges and compare it to a legit T205. The gold should still be rolled over at least one of the edges. <br /><br />2.) If your sure it's bad and you have SGC saying it's bad ask the buyer to refund your money again.<br /><br />3.) DON'T COMMIT MAIL FRAUD.<br /><br />4.) Advise your buyer that you are keeping the $400 as partial repayment of his debt.<br /><br />5.) Be prepared to lose your PayPal privileges if you want to keep the money and not simply make your point. Really the same thing applies to your Ebay privileges.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>There is no way I think Brooks tried to pass this off as good if he knew it was bad. I think he just didn't know, bought it as real, and sold it as real. From the looks of the back printing, and the even age tone on the back, I still don't think it looks good....but I am far from a T205 expert. I would at least have it sent back in and looked at again. My guess is it will be the same conclusion. SGC can get stuff wrong but I don't think they did on this one. Here is their customer service manager's email...it is Michael Goldberg and he is most helpful....<br /><br />mgoldberg@sgccard.com

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Does anyone have a T205 Cobb with black Piedmont printing on the back? I know the T205 reprint set issued in the 80's did, does anyone on the board have one with the black printing?

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>&lt; Even told me the card was once in an SGC slab&gt;<br /><br />That troubles me.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />my statement about the car is simple. if you don't ask questions before you buy, you will get soaked, obviously this auction has warning signs written all over it. <br /><br />1) no where does the auction state money back guarantee, no where does it state 100% authentic. eBay is an as-is basis site, otherwise stated. <br /><br />2) committing mail fraud is an illegal offense. all he has to do is call the police department and have charges put on you. then lawyers are involved costing you more money. its not worth it....<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>SGC got it right. The Cobb is counterfeit. No question.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't believe Brooks did this knowingly IF the card is not good. With that being said you are not correct. Ebay is still a regular market place where the UCC is still in force. That is as legal as I will get....but<br /><br />Last week I saw a Judge Judy episode. A lady and her daughter bought 2 cell phones on ebay. They received 2 pictures of cell phones. The plaintiffs were suing for about $425 total, the cost of phones and shipping. Judge Judy awarded them $5000 as the defendant stuck to her guns of never saying she was selling an "actual" phone in the auction description. The judge called the defendant,along with her no count husband, a crook, thief, and everything else she could think of... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. Not only are you wrong but you are very, very wrong, in this matter...imo. regards

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Posted By: <b>Scott M.</b><p>I also think that the card is actually a real T205 that possibly had some type of lacquer/shellac/glue coating that was applied to it. It wouldn't be the first vintage card that I've seen this done to for preservation or some type of mounting onto a background.<br /><br />As far as the darker color of the back, not all Piedmont backs are as light blue as the example that was shown to compare against the card in question.<br /><br />There are plenty of legitimate Piedmont T205s that have strong, darker blue backs which can easily look almost black depending on the scanner.<br /><br />I don't see anything in the scans that makes me think that it isn't an authentic T205.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, do you eat bon-bons in front of the TV when Judge Judy is on?

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p><i>SGC got it right. The Cobb is counterfeit. No question.</i><br /><br />What is the tell? Is it simply your experience or is there a simple thing we aren't seeing?<br /><br />It would also be interesting to see the entire auction as it appear back in the day if you still have it.

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>I sent an email to Michael Goldberg at SGC with scans and a note about the discussion on the NET54 Forum about the card. I'll let you know what Michael tells me. I am considering sending the card Newell bought from me, although it still burns me up. <br />Too bad he does not read this forum or have someone read it to him. He might consider doing something good with this situation. No matter what he should have returned my payment as soon as I notified him about SGC deeming the card couterfeit. <br />I know there are many members on this board who would have done the right thing. I have read many times about problems with items, even years later and the "Good Guys" did make good on the deal.<br /><br />Thanks again for all of your input, suggestions and support.<br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>D.C. Markel</b><p>...never mind.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>What should the statute of limitations be for counterfeits?

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>DC not sure how you came to that conclusion. many here may have settled the issue when it occured. I am of the opinion that there is no statute of limitations on collectables that are deemed Fake. The OP said he tried to get his refund/return not years later but around the same time that he bought it. He claims he sent it to SGC and they returned it as counterfeit. What bothers me (if true) is the seller claiming it was once in a SGC slab. Like always we only get half the story, so I am basing my assumptions strictly on what the OP has said.<br /><br />I never really answered the question as to what he should do now with the card that this person bought recently. IMO he should weigh two things. 1....is it a good price for said card? if it is send it to the guy, leave no feedback and move on. 2.....Can he do better selling it again? If so I'd tell the guy that he is not getting the card and Id relist it.<br /><br />In no way would I advise the OP to commit mail fraud or do anything illegally.<br /><br /><br />The above advice is free too.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>D.C. Markel</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />Sorry. I misread the original post. I thought the card was submitted for grading a few years after it was purchased.<br /><br />I do believe there is a time limit to when someone has the right to return a card. A month or two after the purchase - upon receiving results from a grading company - definitely. A few years later - probably not. <br /><br />In the final analysis for me, it's a moot issue. I'd never spend more than $100 for a raw card and I'd never sell a pre-WWII HOF card ungraded unless it was in fair to poor condition.

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>Leon,<br />your basing your argument on judge judy? she merely did that to show them to never do it again. <br />if the seller didn't mean to sell him a fake, thats different but the auction is AS-IS AND NO GUARANTEE , how is it the sellers fault? he labeled it in pre-1950. its the problem of the buyer. if the seller wont refund the money, what do you want to happen leon? lawyers involved etc etc? think practical for a change....<br /><br />example : if i walk into an antique store, see a card labeled t205 cobb. look at the card and pay the 1200 bucks for it, thinking its real. not ask any questions on it. get it graded, comes back COU. you think an antique store would refund the money? haha in your dreams. its the same idea. no words of authentication or money back guarantee. you cant "assume" he will refund your money. see the point?

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Posted By: <b>Scott M.</b><p>Hi Steve,<br /><br />I appreciate the detective work that you did in comparing your scan with the scan of the card in question but I would caution that unless you have two scans taken with the same scanner and same resolution then you can't really be sure that your scans are on the same scale.<br /><br />For arguments sake, here is a scan of my T205 Cobb scanned at 300 dpi and pasted over the initial picture of the card in question. The only thing I've done with the initial picture is to rotate it to the right to straighten it out and then paste the image of my T205 Cobb to the right of it.<br /><br />I'm not saying that you couldn't be correct and the card in question <i>might</i> be counterfeit but I don't think you can make this determination based simply on comparing it to a scan of another card.<br /><br /><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~jillmay5/misc/N54_Cobb_New.jpg"><br /><br />In case anyone is curious, here is the front of the card I used in the comparison above...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=43849&usetid=1778" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=43849&usetid=1778</a><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I have seen worse things than Judge Judy as basing one's case on. I think for the most part she gets the law correct. We can agree to disagree on this one...take care

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, Leon, you based your opinion on Judge Judy and the prevailing law. But why should that get in the way of a good argument?

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>T206king, your example of buying a card at an antique is not the same as buying cards from a card dealer. Back in the days where you could find cards and collectibles in an antique store, you take your chances. I did this many time, of course an antique store would not have a $1200.00 price on a card like this one. That was the name of the game years ago, flea markets, antique stores and garage sales. A collector took his chances with very little money involved.<br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />I agree with your post regarding the size/scale of the scans. However, I think the problem that Steve is pointing out with his comparison is that the borders or lines that surround the writeup on the reverse make a different size box in each of the two cards. In your example, the lines still generally match up and the boxes surrounding the writeup on top and the ad on the bottom are the same size in both cards.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Bill, your analogies make no sense whatsoever. The card was posted in the Pre-1930s category. Case closed.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>So Bill. Let me get this straight. You are saying that you could go onto the BST, write some artfully worded ads for vintage cards, sell them at market value, and send out reprints. And come back the next day to do it again, claiming the right to make sales in this manner because you never really SAID they were 100% authentic. Do I have that right? Do you think Leon would let that go on for long? Can you see why not? Would you be good with buying a $500 card off the BST, receiving a reprint and having Leon and the seller say that's okay? Your ethical standards for sellers are pretty low.<br /><br /><br />Another thing that has gotten missed in this whole unfortunate thing is Joe's character. The seller has had several people vouch for his honesty, and his present ebay feedback seems to support this. But his stated reason for not refunding Joe's money when the reprint was brought to his attention (within, it seems, a reasonable time) was that Joe may have switched the card. <br /><br />The thought of Joe switching out a card in an attempt to steal $1200 from someone is laughable. It's easily as unlikely as this seller intentionally defrauding someone. And yet, the seller bascially said he was keeping the $1200 because Joe may have - probably? - planned to return a reprint instead of the card he got. Huh? <br /><br />See, the bad thing about this episode of "Something Went Wrong Between Two Good Guys" is that after the dust settles, the one that is out $1200 is Joe. That seems unfair, and I'm surprised the seller isn't at least willing to talk compromise - even after all this time - now that he can see from this board that Joe did not switch cards. <br /><br />Joe - I'd send it back to SGC first of all. It looks pretty good to me, and if the seller says it was once in an SGC slab maybe the rejection was the mistake. As to the $400, I'm just dying to tell you to keep it as partial payment of the $1200. I understand the arguments about whether that would make you a "good person" or not, but for some reason the seller seems to be getting a free pass on the "good person " front because of his reputation in the hobby. I'm not sure I see how his keeping $1200 by suggesting you would cheat him on a return is any different than you, in good faith, keeping his $400 for a card that got rejected by SGC. Definitely very gray areas we are in here.<br /><br />In the end though, I think you are right to do exactly what you are doing. Don't sell him the card. That would be the final straw in the unfairness here. Keep it, let him have his $400 back, but don't lift one finger to make it easy for him to get it. Tell him to have at it and come get it, and if it is still in your account in 30 days you are keeping it. It might not be much, but it does put you on higher moral ground than he is (and certainly after this thread in which it should be clear to him by now that he may have, indeed, accidentally sold you a reprint).<br /><br />And resubmit to SGC. That will be interesting.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Scott M.</b><p>Hi Josh,<br /><br />Yes, I understood what Steve was getting at in comparing the lines on his image to that of the card in question.<br /><br />I just don't think its valid to compare the two cards like that without insuring that the images are scanned at exactly the same resolution/size.<br /><br />That was the point of my scanning the back of my T205 and showing that it matches up with the card in question. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I got it now - and of course your point well taken/made. I was a little bleary eyed last night when I posted and for some reason it went right over my head. I thought you were comparing your card to the other original (not the card in question).

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Bill - what's your ebay ID so I can know not to ever buy anything from you?