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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I just went through the front page and counted a total of 10 threads about actual questions about cards, and they seem to have little response. I find this a disturbing trend, I started a thread about T202's about a month ago and got a total of one response. There is a question about T210's that has 1 response. This is a disturbing trend to me. <br /><br />This board use to have more substance, where are the OJ discussions? Where are the T202 collectors that use to respond? If it weren't for Ted I wonder where the T206 threads would be. The threads to be more about quantity and not quality. I have resorted to send private emails to the people that use to have knowledgable answers about card questions. <br /><br />I know the new (within the last 2 years) people seem to think this board is just fine. Go back and look at the early threads and you will find much more substance to the board. Yes, There were OT threads and the such but no where close to the number these days. <br /><br />I hope there is a way this trend can change and we can get more of the really knowledgeable people back on the board. This is a great place to get an education in vintage cards but to find real information you really have to do some digging.<br /><br />Just my thoughts,<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The board could be evolving and changing a little as new members join the group. But I still think we have many good card discussions, and the memorabilia board has made some great progress. It's a pretty tight group.<br /><br />There are many card threads that I don't participate in because I don't feel I have anything worthwhile to add. If I do, then I jump in. I think most posters feel the same way.<br /><br />And while I agree there are perhaps more non-card threads than there used to be, I don't find it disturbing. It's just that the board has changed somewhat. And it's easy to get it back on track when it veers- just start a good thread about cards.

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Lee,<br /><br />I agree with your assessment; the board has changed. I post less frequently because I find most of the OT posts to be uninteresting. My P2 question was probably one of the posts that you counted. Two board members were kind enough to email me some information but to this point the post has received no responses. <br /><br />Historically the board has provided information on many topics. It is quite possible that there is little left to discuss.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I see your point somewhat...but still feel the contributors to the board are vast and diverse and growing. Regardless of how the Unique IP's are counted, who look at the board every day, there are more than there were 2 1/2 years ago, by far....Even in the last several months there has been an increase. This last Sunday there were 1123 Unique IP addresses that hit the front page and over 1300 every other day. Over the last week there has been an average of over 300 posts per day on the main page. The point I agree about is the off topic stuff being a little more than it really should be lately. I don't mind some of it as it lets our "family" of board members get to know each other better, imho. I also agree with what Barry said too. We can always start good card threads if we want and get it back on track a little bit.... As for the T202's thread not getting a good response I am not sure why that happened. I don't think there are quite as many folks that collect them as the more mainstream T cards and the more mainstream E cards so maybe that's the reason. I only collect one set so I certainly can't help with too many set questions...unless they are more obscure ones. I still see a lot of the regular posters posting albeit not as much as some of the newer folks, which is fine too. The other 2 forums (memorabilia and Post War) seem to be drawing more and more attention too, which could detract a little bit from the main board. From my point of view everything is cruising along in an ok fashion. Brian and I are always open for suggestions....regards

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>SO if those 2 folks emailed you, about P2's, instead of posting then maybe that is a small part of the issue overall. Folks email privately instead of posting the info on the board...I agree too, that there is only so much to talk about and then we have to get more imaginative. <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253F partner%253DZSzeb008%255FZN%2526i%253D10%252F10%25 5F1%255F123%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_123.gif" alt="SmileyCentral.com" border="0"><img border="0" src="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fimgfarm%252Ecom%252Fimages%252F nocache%252Ftr%252Ffw%252Fsmiley%252Fsocial%252Egi f%253Fi%253D10%252F10_1_123/image.gif"></a>

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>The problem with all the "other" posts is that if you want to find a thread of substance you have to sort through so much just to find it. I just went to go try and find the thread I started about T202s. The lat response was six days ago and 5 pages deep. ( I was mistaken I did get a second response). <br /><br />Barry is one of the few that has hung on and his knowledge is greatly appreciated as well as others that contribute. <br /><br />I certainly don't think that any issue has run it's course. If some issues need to be rehashed yearly I don't see the problem there is always new people and they are looking for answers. It never hurts to renew interest and maybe something new will come out of it.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />It is frustrating as your graphic suggests. I still really enjoy visiting the board and contributing when I can. The football board in the postwar section has also been frustrating. Very little information is exchanged compared to the show-and-tell stuff (which I don't mind).

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>I agree Lee, I don't mind answering (or reading) questions that have been addressed before. The search function is an excellent resource but should not be the response given to someone's question. That only discourages new posters.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Don't get me wrong....ANYTHING pertaining to Pre-War baseball cards on here is fine by me and as much as anyone wants to post about it. I don't care if we post about something 50 times if it's on topic....Redundancy to one person is no doubt the first time someone else has seen it.....I do wish more lurkers would chime in and share their knowledge....But if they only want to lurk then so be it....regards

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Posted By: <b>Tim Newcomb</b><p>I am often disappointed by the lack of response to substantive card threads, or even ones pertaining to issues in the hobby. Some of the latter type get hundreds of responses when posters start fighting with one another, but at least as often the topic dies a quick death. <br /><br />Maybe that's just the way it is with chat boards, but it is a bummer when posts offering or asking for actual card knowledge (as opposed to hobby gossip and personal carping) falls to the bottom with so little response.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I think what Lee is trying to point out is that even when he or someone else asks a questions like "can you check your cards and tell me....?" that there is little or no response. T202s are not widely collected, but his question certainly wasn't about a common player or obscure variation, yet there was almost response. I can't imagine that among a supposed 1000+ people that only 2 had this card.<br /><br />This is the point, even when basic info is asked for and lurkers could obviously answer, no one bothers.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Am I wrong in the logic given that if the train is off the track you just put it back on and the the train falls off the track and it has to get put back on and the train goes off the track and we have to put it back on. Part of that problem is that the putting back on falls off the tracks more than it's on.<br /><br />Also what I get from Leon's response is that as long as the hits are up that is all that matters at the expense of why this board is actually here. <br /><br />Now this is where I get killed for bringing it up, but with the advertisers you can charge more with more hits. At what point Leon are you willing to get the train back on the tracks at the expense of the hits and thus probably less advertising revenue? If it is about maximizing the hits and maximizing the revenue stream, please let us now, then it won't have to be brought up again and again. I personally could care less if that is what you have in mind, but I think we all deserve to know this.<br /><br />No, I was not aiming at bringing up the advertising but Leon's response I felt warranted it.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Shawn Chambers</b><p>Hey Lee,<br /><br /> I agree with what you are saying, but hope much of the board's problems could be solved by personal responsibility.<br /><br /> I am the one that posted the T210 question (and except for Frank's response) was basically ignored. I am a newbie and joined early in the year. I really do try hard to post on topic always (I've only started a half dozen or so threads period). I also try to post things because I really want to learn something--not just to post for postings sake. With all the research gone into T206s, I was sure that someone would have something on the 210s distribution. My Zeenut question was better.<br /><br /> Before coming here, I read the boards at PSA, but found them to be useless in general. I hope this board NEVER becomes like those. I know at any given time, I can find a quality thread...just takes a bit longer in these last few months.<br /><br /> I think Leon is a good moderator, but just wish certain people would think harder before they start a thread, and wish the rest of the people would think hard before bothering to reply to a bad thread. I know some of the long-time hobbyists are jaded and probably tired of what they consider the same posts asked and answered, but there are MANY new people like myself that really look forward to some guidance and thoughtful insights.<br /><br />Shawn<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Whoa--Jay is back! Good. And now we are talking about advertising again!<br /><br />In all seriosness Lee, I don't respond because I do not have anything to add. Many people who now contribute I know from CU or LTS. Generally speaking they are collectors and mostly graded card collectors. I think the mix of threads is a direct result of the changing mix of people on the board.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Shawn- I would have gladly responded to your T210 thread, or to any other one about vintage cards, but I don't know enough about the set to add anything really meaningful. I don't feel a need to respond to every thread just to be heard, and I in fact more enjoy the threads where a lively discussion about some hobby issue develops. I think we each like certain types of threads more than others (such as this one which entails some editorial comments).<br /><br />But you put Leon in a tough position. If he chooses to be strict about allowing only card related threads, then if someone posts about Joe Torre or steroids he has to either lock or delete it. And while I shouldn't really speak for him, I don't think he is comfortable going in that direction.

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Posted By: <b>Shawn Chambers</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Actually, I've always found your responses to be informative and very helpful. (And I love Seinfeld). <br /><br />I don't mean to put Leon in a spot at all. If you notice in my last post near the top, I stated that it should be solved by "personal responsibility" - meaning for the posters to really think about what they are about to post and to also think before they respond to yet another OT thread. In an ideal world the board would be best by self moderation, but, unfortunately, the discipline seems to be lacking in people.<br /><br />Best,<br />Shawn

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Barry, That is one of my points. The people are either no longer here or chose not to respond that were here in the past. I think responses should be given only if you have something to add to the thread.<br /><br />Shawn makes an excellent point about the people starting threads need to think more when posting these threads with little substance, and also the people responding.<br /><br />Maybe there needs to be another off shot of the board for community threads.<br /><br />One other point about the person mentioning his disappointment that the football thread is a dead issue. I would think that it should almost be expected since it is a vintage baseball cards board.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I think that part of the problem with the posters policing themselves is that many of them have a broader thought of what the vintage baseball card forum is all about (peter C is a prime example, an extreme maybe). There is a "mission statement" at the top of the page that seem to be forgotten.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I think the football card reference was for the post-war football forum<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/579393/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/579393/</a>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>For the millionith time about adveritising. It's here. It's been discussed ad nauseum. I don't mind if you and Jay and a handful of others don't like it. I don't think it's the reason the board is whatever it is.... Jay came into the forum again either as my mistake or another computer, whatever. For the moment it's no big deal. When I talk about the "hits" it's not so much about the advertising as it is about the popularity of the board with respect to the number of people posting. I wish more people would post that visit the board....Regardless of all of that the board is way up in posts, posters, and "hits" and many times great information. I wish more threads were completely on topic but whatever I do some folks will not like. I do exactly what I feel is the right thing to do and that's it, in each circumstance. If anyone likes it great...if they dont'....great...We aren't going to have another whole thread about it.... best regards<br /><br />edited to add that I do listen to the board all of the time and base my decisions with those things I hear, in mind...but at the end of the day I do have to make a decision on many things and I do the best I can...

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I thought it was a click link from this board, my bad. The only football card I have is a Walter Payton Rookie because he is my alltime favorite.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I've been the moderator of several message boards and have participated in many more, and I've found that message boards, in general, behave cyclically. They're living and breathing things, with personalities that constantly change. New members discover the board, which injects new personalities into the discussions. Established members become disillusioned as the personality of the board changes with the new members. Subject matter discussions fall into occasional lulls which frustrates established members looking for stimulating discussion. People get pissed about off-topic threads. Established members get frustrated with two or three posters who seem to irritate the entire community.<br /><br />None of these things are specific to this board. They happen all over the internet.<br /><br />The key to restoring the sort of community that attracted a person to a board in the first place doesn't involve complaining about it, quitting, or calling for the moderator's head; the key is to dive back in and take some ownership over the problem by starting worthwhile threads, participating in others, and understanding that today's newbie is tomorrow's long-timer. Rather than get irritated with the direction of a board and give up, it's more effective to keep contributing - everything you like about a board will eventually come back, if the people who seem to care so much about it continue to move the board in the right direction.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Like I said Leon I could give a rat's arse about what you are doing with the advertising (just a point I believe you think that the money that comes in from it is insignificant but it is more or close to what some of us make in a year) and I will leave it at that. But I see you doing nothing to bring the train back on the tracks and following the "mission statement" that is at the top of the board. It is sad that the board has gone this direction, I am just glad I have the emails of many of the old board members that no longer post.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Well said Al. Now if the train will get back on the tracks.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You are certainly entitled to you opinion....take care

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Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Good evening gentlemen,<br />Hello Lee,<br />Being a newer poster here I think this board needs to allow some change in order for it to continue and evolve. I do realize this part of the board focuses more on pre war cards but as an observer how many times can you talk about one set of cards before it becomes a bit redundant. Take a post like show us your t202s. If you probably go way back and look it will be the same cards by the same posters time after time when asked for. I like Barry (hello Barry) like to discuss other topics such as the one we just had on the Bidding Stragedy post. I got to learn alot about him and Im sure he learned alot about me.While I do agree some of the posts go way off track at points most are a healthy way of learning about some of the veteran posters and thier vast collections and knowledge.<br />By the way Lee you do know me I am pretty sure you bought a t202 (noticed how I picked t202s) To Late For Devlin As A (giant) in poor to fair condition from me years ago! Just wanted to jog your memory! The train always seems to be put back on the track most of the time but sometimes its good to open her up !!

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I think the board adheres to the mission statement perfectly.<br /><br />And I think Leon ought to make more money.<br /><br />And I think Al is right on the money.<br /><br />I want Net54 to be more about graded cards in the future--so I will start more threads about grading and pops etc--I won't complain that there are not enough about them.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Al said what I was thinking but said it better than I could have. I've been posting regularly on the board now for two or three years and I've seen a lot of people come and go. And as such, new personalities carry on with posting. And everybody has individual likes and dislikes. Some people love the "show me your Nap Lajoie" cards or something like that. Personally, I find them boring and often don't even open them.<br /><br />And so what. I participate in threads that interest me. Some are directly related to vintage cards, and some are discussions of important hobby issues. I do agree with Lee, Tim, Shawn, and others that there are too many off topic posts, and that lies solely in the hands of the person who starts them. But can I still feel free to respond? I know the Joe Torre thread was off topic but I've followed the Yankees all year, so can't I offer an opinion or two?<br /><br />I think this is the current state of the forum: threads about baseball cards mixed in with threads about other general baseball topics. And yes, of course Seinfeld and rock music find their way in too. Hey, in the end we're just a bunch of friends who like to chat. So we jump the tracks once in a while, that's life.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Al, I know your name rang a bell, but I have bought so many cards, not alot of T202 Matty/Devlin's though. The thread I started about T202s was to gain some research knowledge and not a show and tell thread. I am not a contributor in the Show and Tell threads but it seems really popular and I can see the correlation.<br /><br />I just don't see this evolution is good if you are losing a majority of your knowledge base, that is my opinion and concern about what has happened to this board. I think what is lost is going to be very tough to reobtain what has been lost.<br /><br />Sorry for being so concerned but I feel there is a serious lack of knowledge base compared to the first couple of years.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>I started a thread about the origins of T206 that I thought was actually pretty interesting -- and got ZERO responses.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1191766683/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1191766683/</a><br /><br />I feel as if the knowledge base is either gone or not participating. The newbies are not chiming in with theories or ideas. The only posts I learn from lately are Ted Z's.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>No further examples are necessary.

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Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Hi Lee,<br />While I understand your concern I myself dont think the knowledge base really has gone down . What I have seen when the knowledge on a perticular subject is needed the veteran posters( now most probably lurkers) but are still out there respone with some great answers because they now see a subject post they can be helpful with, and become posters and thread helpers once again. You have to keep in context that not everyone is lets say for sake of arguement in there 60s and 70s. You have alot of younger people trying to learn about the hobby but in the same token love to talk about some of the more intresting "subjects" that evolve very quickly I.E. Joe Torre leaving. Maybe thats the post they are able to handle and get there feet wet so to speak. but as a veteran dont jump down thier throat and say hay that not suppose to be posted here! You are a purist and as such its hard for you to let go of the "pure" baseball talk CARDS. Expand a little Lee its more healthy for you. Your knowledge is vast and needed on many card subjects but AS AN OBSERVER most everyone knows your stance on advertisers time to put it to rest and try and enjoy this forum!

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I want to get one thing clear on this advertising thread. I do not believe I have ever voiced that I do not like the fact there is advertising, even in this thread. It is my brother Jay who has beaten it silly, not me. I can see where there is a possible conflict of interest and the response by Leon falls into that category, As stated in an earlier response. <br /><br />As far as lightening up If you read posts from the first couple of years it was not a problem. Jay and I were the ones that started the NCAA final Four contest for Net54 that Nick Martinez donated the first prize. My choice about a year ago was to not respond to threads that had nothing to do with cards in hopes of keeping the board more in focus. As I have stated I feel that the board has lost it's main focus and valuable members.<br /><br />By the way to me the Joe Torre thread does not belong here and should have been deleted, it adds absolutely nothing to the context of the "vintage forum". Why not discuss the Rockies current winning streak, why not talk about will ARod leave the Yanks, why not talk about whether Johan Santana should get traded before he is a free agent? Alot of things can be discussed but this should not be the forum to do it.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I agree that the focus seems to be meandering. I will honestly admit that I don't know if this is natural evolution of all such boards, or if there are genuine forces in play affecting this board. <br /><br />I know that way back to the Fullcount days it seemed like there were true hobby heavyweights that rang in regularly, and the board was a great resource. (Although, let's not forget that the flame war threads on that board could put this one to shame - that's always been there too.)<br /><br />There are still heavyweights that ring in here - some routinely and some much less so. But if you look at the overall mix of topics and posters, the gravity of the board has decreased.<br /><br />I count myself as part of the problem. I am newer to posting regularly - only maybe two years - and while I am passionate about the hobby I simply do not have the knowledge to add that some do. Someday I will. Today I don't. So I contribute to threads about general hobby issues and direction, but not so much the genuinely informative posts. There are many others like me who are newer and less experienced, and as a result the entire mix of contributors and nature of contribution is changing.<br /><br />What's the answer? Who knows? But there are some things that might help.<br /><br />First, absolutely with everyone upthread that says to give answers to questions even if it's the millionth time it's been asked. Don't refer to search functions and don't not answer. When I started lurking at Fullcount years ago, the ways for spotting reprints and trimming were already well-known. Thankfully, people would post this common knowledge there in response to questions. Otherwise I would never have picked it up.<br /><br />Second, agree with whoever said to consider these issues before you respond to a vacuous thread started by someone that does so more regularly. Yes there are two OT's now on steroids and the Yankee's manager. But both were started by (and believe me, in one case it really does kill me to say this but fair is fair) regular contributors who never, ever start OT threads. To me, respond away in those cases. But to contribute to general dilution of topics by responding to peripheral threads by frequent starters of such threads only encourages it.<br /><br />Vintage cards first, hobby issues second, and peripheral topics about vintage baseball in general, or players from that era, etc. last.<br /><br />And goodbye to the board if we ever become a place where the topic is a mix of vintage baseball cards and general baseball topics. There will be no reason at all for the truly experienced contributors, which are the lifeblood of this forum, to stick around.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Paul, that is amazing that thread had no response until I just did. There is nothing difficult about the thread, just basically asking opinions on your observation and there were none. That is a very good example of my whole thought to starting the thread. I would be curious as to how many pages back it was buried after 13 days. Mine thread was 6 days old and 5 pages back.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>compared to most of you guys (& gals) i know crap about the card makers or reasons why cards were made or why some players were not included in certain sets. i have learned so much from everyone its almost embarassing, i thought i knew baseball and it's cards until i was introduced to this site...to this i thank everyone.<br /><br />that said, what can we do to get back on track? well, as a suggestion what if we or someone (not everyone) pick a particular set or card weekly and we discuss it to its end. not just by adding links but personal knowledge and photos and whatever else it takes.<br /><br />here are a few suggestions of sets that i would like to learn more about...<br /><br />1. 1895 mayo plugs<br />2. t204 ramly<br />3. boston garter cards

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Anthony likes seeing guys in underwear & garters. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Great suggestions I think that would be a good start.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Sorry Lee Thats Right it was Jay more than yourself.<br />I do understand what you are saying that this "part" of the forum is devoted to pre war card talk but as you can start to see yourself alot of the old posters are gone. Then my question to you is lets say if this part of the forum went back to the way it was do you really think all the old posters would come back? In my opinion I dont think so. I think it has evolved and because it has done so maybe changes do need to be made. But I think it will play out in time but for now weather it be good or bad this is what it is for now and adjustments need to be made in order for this forum to stagnate or flourish.

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>lee, that was suppose to be a secret...<br /><br />edited to add scan<br /><br /><img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/Goombata/Goombata2/bostongartertycobb.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...but I don't come here to read the dirt on Torre or ARod. If you want to talk current baseball, I agree, it should be done someplace else.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I was one of the two guys who emailed John about the P2 question because when I posted a thread about the P2s and asked some questions you could hear the crickets chirping.<br />I agree with Lee, all we seem to get lately is hedge fund posts where the original poster posts and then hides and never returns to the thread or threads about current baseball and not cards. I am not hypocritical enough to say I never post OT threads because I do but I also try to get discussions going on Sporting Life cards (crickets), Close Candy and Anonymous cards (crickets) and the finding of a previously unknown (to me) T212 back (crickets). <br />I do think if you check the recent threads you'll find things have gotten somewhat better though...

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Lee - <br /><br />Good question. The short version is that every topic dealing with vintage cards and related topics has already been discussed time & time again. In other words, every card set, manufacture, series, issue, rarity, number, etc,... has been discussed in excruating detail. The same with grading, auction houses, ebay, shows, etc,... Also, nothing is changing that quickly in the hobby/industry that there needs to be any long discussion about. Most of the questions members post (my self included) can probably be found in the archives of this forum. The forum is like celebrity TV shows (Access Hollywood, Entertainment tonight, etc,...) - you're curious to know who's doing what to whom <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JakeB</b><p>I'm a huge modern baseball fan... October 20 2007, 11:23 PM <br /><br /><br />...but I don't come here to read the dirt on Torre or ARod. If you want to talk current baseball, I agree, it should be done someplace else.<br />================================================= ============================<br /><br />Agree 100% with this statement. However, I made a similar point in the Torre thread the other day and low and behold, I am told that the originator of the thread has posted for a long time on here now and talked about pre war baseball cards. Well, I've now seen a few O/T threads from that poster and he never shows back up to respond at all. However, since he's been here awhile, it's apparently alright to do as you please.<br /><br />I remember started a couple of threads in the past relating specifically to pre war cards. I may as well have attached cinder blocks to the threads they dropped so fast. I will say though that I did get one response.<br />"This topic has been discussed before. Use the search function."<br /><br />Yeah, well, that's great and all, but if some of you want the lurkers to come to light and post as well as some new people, maybe the topic can be discussed again for those that are new to it. Maybe something new was discovered with that particular set. God knows the debate of bidding practices has had multiple threads. Maybe if people were a little more helpful and friendly, the lurkers would come out and new people would be more likely to hang around. <br /><br />So what if some of the old people don't come back. Nobody is going to be here forever. Ever hear of out with the old and in with the new?<br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Alan, I hope your post is in jest. It may seem like everything has been hashed out a million times, but that just simply isn't true. All you have to do is look at the thread my brother started, or the thread started by tbob. The started threads about something that hasn't been seen or discussed before, yet almost no one responded.<br /><br />Jake, be careful what you wish for. If all the old timers leave, you won't be left with much of a knowledge base given what I've seen from the new comers.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>JakeB</b><p>I hardly believe that the old timers that have left this board are the only ones out there with great knowledge. I've met a couple of people myself who are simply lurkers on the board. They have great knowledge to go along with great collections. But guess what, they lurk because of the way they get treated on here by the "old timers".

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Jake,<br /><br />I do not think anyone has been attacked here for giving their knowledge of a set. It is your thinking that will send this board to just a chat room with little real knowledge. Go back to the early threads and read them if you have not already. There is more substance in the first year then there has been in the last 3. Heck if it wasn't for Scot Reader and Ted Z. the substance would really be minimum. <br /><br />Many of you think the "old timers" are the ones driving people away, to me it is all the new off topic non card topics that have driven them away. Heck, I always remember when Andy Baran would leave the chat room because the discussion turned to T206 and away from the subjects he liked, caramels, E107s and obscure issues. When was the last time we heard from him? What of Art M.(T206), we lost Pete Calderon to Mastro, many probably don't know he probably has the best knowledge and great site on caramel cards, what of Wike Wentz, some didn't like him but a great amount of knowledge, I know Jay Miller reads but does not post anywhere close to as much as he use to, great OJ knowledge. Even our post moderators post very rarely and they have great knowledge. I don't think the newbies realize who much more they could learn if some of this people would post again. I am sure they all have there reasons. To me I miss them all and many I have not mentioned.<br /><br />This is what is missing from the board now, I strongly encourage anyone that has not and has the time to read earlier threads, you will find there is alot more substance than most of the posts today.<br /><br />As far as everything being said and known far from it. Ted Z. started what is believed to be the best thread ever on the board about a year ago that has help to understand the T206 set better. So we need the inquiring minds, but if we don't have the people with the back ground it sure doesn't do much good.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>JakeBushi</b><p>Maybe you don't get what I'm saying. I don't think ANY O/T threads belong on the board. If someone wants to discuss those topics, the internet is littered with message boards for them. However, since many people on here are sick of the O/T threads, then maybe they should just not be allowed. And that goes for EVERYBODY. I fail to see the logic in letting one person do it simply because they have posted here for awhile about baseball cards, and somebody else not doing it because they are new to the board. If the O/T threads are what's driving all the "knowledgeable" people away, I don't think they care who is posting them.<br /><br />As far as driving the "knowledgeable" people away, well, how many of the people actually said they don't post here anymore because of O/T threads? What exactly are the reasons they left? Instead of living in the past and hoping these people come back, why not the people here who have knowledge step up and take on the role. Some of these people are on here enough, it shouldn't be a problem. But in the end, these same people who could step up and actually discuss the card topics, choose to become embattled in childish arguments. And what are they arguing about? They are arguing about how those people drive the knowledgeable people away. Imagine that.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>What are you talking about with this comment of yours....?<br />"But guess what, they lurk because of the way they get treated on here by the "old timers".<br /><br />I for one, am the oldest on this Forum and there are quite a few "OLD TIMERS" here; and, I don't see any of us "scaring" others away.<br />Quite the contrary is true, we welcome and encourage thought-provoking, worthwhile discussions on all aspects of vintage cards. Most<br /> of us veteran collectors are interested in the history, the "nitty-gritty", and subtleties of our BB cards....and not what the latest POP<br /> report numbers are, or the number on a plastic slab, or debating whether a card is trimmed, or concerned if a "hedge fund" is going to<br /> take over our hobby ? ? <br /><br /> I don't know where you are coming from.....but, you better explain this accusation of yours ?<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>I enjoy learning about the history of the game and its players and the production/distribution of the cards. There is still much to be discovered. The recent minor league HOF thread is a perfect example. Although the thread was somewhat hijacked new (at least to me) information regarding the Colgan's set was discussed. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I am a veteran collector and I know lots of veteran collectors. We are very interested in card pops, whether card is trimmed and the post on hedge funds was fascinating. In vast these types of threads are the most popular on Net 54. Look it up.<br /><br />What is scary is that certain old timers think their way to collect is the only way.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>The departure of posters with knowledge of particular sets is being replaced by knowledge of people about graded cards and card restoration. I would take Kevin over one of these guys anyday. All kinds of new posters with knowledge about graded cards. Doesn't mean I am right--just means that there is room for all kinds of posts relating to pre-war cards.Graded and non-graded. This is the way the hobby is going. Posts related to graded-cards are still less than 50% of all posts so there is plenty of room for expansion. We are just scratching the surface of what to talk about regarding graded cards and issues surrounding them.

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />While grading certainly has a place in the hobby (and as part of the discussion on this board) I do not believe that it should be the primary focus. I personally place little weight in the population reports as a means to assess relative abundance/rarity. Overtime as more re-submissions, crack-outs, and crossovers occur the information contained in the pop reports will continue to lose validity. I would much rather learn about the cards, not the plastic that surrounds them.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>John. Thats your right(to place little weight). I think pop reports are a great barometer of relative scarcity. But I am talking about all aspects of graded cards when I say we have just scratched the surface.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ted Z. and Jim C. are different personalities and collect in entirely different ways, but each is passionate about his area of the hobby. So I think the best solution here is tolerance towards how someone else collects. Jim hasn't found a better way, nor has Ted. I'll call it a draw.<br /><br />But I think it might be time to start a thread on the role of O/T posting, and maybe we can come to a better mutual understanding. Clearly it's an issue that is concerning enough people.

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Posted By: <b>Jake</b><p>Accusation? Hardly, simply speaking what others who come to the board think. People who have a great amount of knowledge on pre-war cards. People who have great collections. They don't post here, simply lurk and try to find something worthwhile in between the garbage. Sometimes they buy/sell but that's about it. They see what goes on here and feel no need to be part of a message board titled "Net 54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum" that is riddled with hedge fund/Joe Torre/Colorado Rockies threads. <br /><br />It seems many of these "Old Timers" have already left. Yet many on here blame the "new" people and many O/T threads, many of which are created by veterans of this board. <br /><br />Maybe I read your post wrong. I am not for O/T threads. I think they are useless and the more they pop up, the more we will see. Whether it's created by a veteran of the board or a one week participant.<br /><br />You, Ted Z. I have learned the most from. You are probably one of the few who stick to the purpose of the board. I only ask that maybe some more 207 threads pop up?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Exactly what I am saying. There are graded cards and ungraded cards. Ted collects ungraded-great, talk about them. I collect graded-great, I will talk about them. I think Al posted something like this in more detail recently.<br /><br />I agree with you on O/T posts they should be looked at more carefully. Stuff like the Colorado Rockies posts etc. However the hedge fund post is related to vintage cards and was one of the most interesting on the board in some time.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The hedge fund thread kind of straddled the on/off topic line. It dealt with one aspect of vintage cards- that is their investment potential. On the other hand, the number of collectors on this board who care about the relationship between hedge funds and baseball cards they will never be able to afford is minimal. Nevertheless, it wasn't technically off topic.<br /><br />This thread has brought to my attention that these O/T posts are bothering more people than I had imagined. I enjoy the digressions and I am fully aware that while I do post substantively, I likewise jump the ship on a regular basis. I guess it's a reflection of my personality. If you know me, you will see me sometimes being very serious, and other times I'm completely off the wall.<br /><br />But I do think today we should devote some time to a discussion about this. So far so many people have come on the thread to complain about O/T (and obviously many others who agree haven't) that it needs to be addressed.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />You say the hedge fund topic straddles the line(I disagree) but indicate its of limited interest. Quite the contrary. The thread goes to 100 posts and the threads about an oddball set drift to page 5 with nary a response. This thread shows that this is exactly the kind of thread that posters do care about the most.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jake, here is a challenge I present to you or anyone else that cares to take it on:<br /><br />Please show us ONE POST, just one, where some someone here was attacked (doesn't even have to be me) for asking vintage baseball card related question.<br /><br />I posed this challenge numerous times and no one has been able to produce any real evidence. It's like Bigfoot, people swear it exists, but no one can offer an real proof.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jim, that thread is also proof that people will chime in on a topic they know little about, yet they won't chime in on a card question. Go figure <i>shrug</i><br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- it did get a lot of responses at that. I guess I just felt its scope was narrow.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />I agree.<br /><br />Glad you are back--you are a wealth of knowledge. Whatever board you share it on someone will benefit.

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Jay - of course, my response on this posting last night was in jest <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Alan

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Jake,<br />Not sure how long you have been on the board or lurking but I don't see the rules about off topic stuff changing. I suggest you read the rules. If you don't like them that is your choice. The more often someone posts the more they are entitled (in my opinion) to do an off topic post. It is a reward for being a part of the community and helps us get to know each other. If you don't like it...that's ok. As far as off topic stuff running people off I will throw a BS flag on that. There are plenty of good threads to join in about what the focus is. As far as anyone leaving because they get attacked I will also throw a BS flag on that. As my good friend <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Jay B just said....show me one thread where someone got attacked for talking about the focus of this board. <br /><br />Lee B- you mentioned several folks that don't post much anymore. I doubt it's because they want to but won't for fear of anything or because this has turned into a bad place. Pete C doesn't post much (he has a few times) as he is with Mastro and it's probably better for him not to. He and I have talked about it often. He still reads the board quite a bit. Bill C. doesn't post too much but does when he has something to chime in about. Elliot- same way. Andy Baran is all but out of collecting baseball. I am not sure he's a whole lot into collecting at all right now but is still a good friend. Nothing "scared" him away or drove him away. Do a lot of folks hate the bickering? Sure, but it is what it is and I don't think it's been that bad lately. I get slammed when it happens and I get slammed if I censor it. I just make judgement calls...right or wrong, on allowing it. It sort of goes in spurts too. I feel we still have pretty much the same breadth of knowledge as we always have....plus some and minus some others. It's too bad some folks leave but they do for a variety of reasons and my intuition tells me it's mostly not because of anything to do with the board itself it's more a statement of what they are doing in their lives. I know if I didn't run the board I would take some time off every once and a while. It's not a bad thing to do.....regards

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Look at it this way, with me as the star example. I don't have the breadth and depth of knowledge of those that used to post here regularly and some of those that still do. So would it be more harmful to this board to lose 90% of the people that know more than me, or 90% of the people that know the same as me or less? I think that pretty much says it all.<br /><br />As to related-topic posts about hobby issues (graded cards, auction house practices, etc) I tend to think they are okay. They give people like me a chance to participate - maybe long enough to acquire true card knowledge. Also, they do provide some volume and heartbeat to the board where pure card topics don't, or are too static.<br /><br />To me, it's a spectrum, really. I tend to think of the topics (in order of being truly on topic to being truly off topic) as:<br /><br />Vintage cards<br />Vintage card hobby issues<br />Vintage baseball (players, teams, etc)<br />Baseball<br />Sports<br />All other topics<br /><br />Most of the time should be spent in the top two, with increasingly fewer posts as you go down the list and a large drop-off between topics 2 and 3.<br /><br />And as to OT, I really like Leon's rule and think it works great in general. Take Jim C's recent steroid post. He contributes regularly here to the first two topics above, and I don't think I've ever once seen him start an OT thread. It's a great example of how Leon's rules should work and be used responsibly. So the policy is good, but we all need to be more mindful of it and where on the continuum a topic falls before starting it. We shouldn't make Leon ride herd all the time on it.<br /><br />And I absolutely think that such OT leeway should go to regular posters and not new people. People "earn" the right to post OT by making ongoing contributions to the core topics. How can that not be fair and promote the interest and focus of the board? It makes perfect sense to me.<br /><br />J<br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Please show us ONE POST, just one, where some someone here was attacked (doesn't even have to be me) for asking vintage baseball card related question.<br />================================================= =========================<br /><br />What, are you putting words into my mouth now? When did I ever say someone was attacked? It's the general attitude some of the posters on here present to others. <br /><br />In the words of some people when a poster asks about cards, "Go do a search for it. It's been discussed before."<br /><br />I love how some of you only take one small aspect of anything I've said and argue that, never anything relating to the ridiculous O/T threads that so many complain about, yet start themselves and expect them to go away.

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Posted By: <b>JakeBushi</b><p>Jake,<br />Not sure how long you have been on the board or lurking but I don't see the rules about off topic stuff changing. I suggest you read the rules. If you don't like them that is your choice. The more often someone posts the more they are entitled (in my opinion) to do an off topic post. It is a reward for being a part of the community and helps us get to know each other. If you don't like it...that's ok. As far as off topic stuff running people off I will throw a BS flag on that. There are plenty of good threads to join in about what the focus is. As far as anyone leaving because they get attacked I will also throw a BS flag on that. As my good friend Jay B just said....show me one thread where someone got attacked for talking about the focus of this board. <br />================================================= ========================<br /><br />So then when a good number of the regulars say that new people posting O/T threads keeps the "old timers" away, you'd be saying that is BS as well. If the O/T threads keep old timers away, as many appear think happens, I highly doubt the people check to see who makes the O/T thread before deciding if it's alright or not. It will be annoying either way. If a new person comes to the board, I can say with certainty that a good number are not going to read the "rules". So, they see O/T threads from regulars and thus think it's alright. Maybe you should have some sort of agreement that people check off before they can actually post on here.<br /><br />And I'll pose the same question that I just asked Jay B. WHERE did I say people were attacked? Attacked and being treated disrespectfully are two totally different things. And as I said to Jay and now to you that I have received a couple of times in the past when posting about pre war cards, "Go do a search, it's been talked about before."

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>JAKE<br /><br />I first posted on Net54 in 2005 (so I'm not a "newbie" and I not an "oldie"). And, at every Philly Show since then, I have had the pleasure<br /> of meeting a lot of Net54ers that have come to my booth. Most are the members that post frequently. Also, at each show approx. 12 "readers"<br />(hate the term lurkers) visit with me. They range in all ages and most will engage in long conversations on vintage BB cards or threads on <br />Net54. At the this recent Reading Show two readers stayed at my booth for at least an hour each. One talking about 19th Century cards <br />and the other on T-cards. It was obvious from our discussions that both these guys had some fantastic collections and had<br /> sophisticated knowledge thereof.<br /><br />I always ask readers why they do not post, especially guys like these two who can provide some meaningful and informative expertise to us.<br /> I get a variety of responses.....from...."I select the substantive threads and read them and enjoy them and I will email the poster" (I do receive<br /> occasional emails as such, on threads I have posted). To...."It sometimes gets too "hairy" on the board with all that controversy, and I do not<br /> want to get involved in it".<br /><br />But, I have never, ever heard the "excuse" for not posting that you claim. Are you talking about an anecdotal one (or two) ? I have met approx. 80<br /> different readers of Net54, either at shows or via emails these past two years and never such a complaint. I am really very skeptical of what you are<br />claiming.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Jake,<br /><br />Thanks for clearing up your initial post. To me you have a valid point about newbie seeing O/T and thinking it is OK. Your statement at the end of your first post about "out with the out int with the new" is the one that really disturbed me and I pointed that out. <br /><br />As far as the O/T stuff I believe it was hashed over about 2 months ago and never seemed to solve anything thing it even seemed to get worse because of one poster. I don't know what else can be done without Leon's intervention of deleting the threads. It would be great if posters and responders would think before doing so but that does not seem to happen enough.<br /><br />Jim, as far as popular threads, I go back to quantity over quality. THe quality gets hidden with too much quantity.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>JakeBushi</b><p>Just as you are skeptical of what other people have told me at card shows (dealers) I can easily say the same of what people have told you. That's just how the world goes, unless we were with each other at the given time, neither of us can prove a thing. However, I did in fact meet a couple of people who have told me this. Not that they get attacked, simply spoken to (saying typed to sounded strange) as if they were being spoken down to, disrespected, for no reason at all. <br /><br />Bottom line is, O/T threads will never go away. If they are allowed, other people will come onto the board and think it's alright because others do it. That's how life is in general.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Perhaps the easiest way to read the posts is to go to the index (front) page and just skip the topics you are disinterested in. I do think the card question posts deserve to be answered, especially when someone new here asks the question. I try my best to always chime in but if the question pertains to pre-1900 or Cogan Chips or strip cards or some set I have limited (if any) knowledge of, I'd like to think someone ask will chip in.<br />Also I wish someone could define "old-timers," does that refer to guys and gals who have been here on this board for a long time, collectors over 50 years old, collectors with 25+ years in the hobby, or what? There are collectors here (and lurkers) who have been in the hobby since the 80's but are in their 30's, are they considered "old-timers?"

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>No doubt at all what Lee is saying is true, there is less meat to many of the card threads and fewer of the hobbyists who used to give opinion now do.<br />Its hard to see friends and people you admire not participate, there was an established feel you could count on and relate to - daunting but to be respected and observed carefully before any real soul baring.<br /><br />But, as Joann said so nicely: "They give people like me a chance to participate - maybe long enough to acquire true card knowledge."<br /><br />I mean, isn't that the larger question. Sure its nice to be surrounded by just the people you have friendships with, admire alot, but those people leave the hobby, move, lose interest, and frankly - die, and if you haven't allowed and encouraged new participants then you're left with nothing.<br />If we were to set hard and fast rules that brought old time posters back AT the expense of newer members, do we get a guarantee those seriously experienced people will stick around long term, post regularly with content that's valuable to us all, not go off and start their own board or simply take up a new hobby?<br /><br />Me, I liked the tenor of the board a few years back when I came here. It was robust and intellectual and not a little intimidating. I spent many a day nervously checking to see responses to my posts, almost too nervous in case I got chewed out to even scroll the threads, and some posters definitely made the experience less than it might have been.<br /><br />I don't know whether I like the new board as much in terms of material discussed, but when the new tides come in that's what you get. Renewal, removal of some things that had been there before, and the possibility of a treasure being deposited before your eyes.<br />If we don't encourage it, then where do the next Ted Z's come from and how will we know their worth without making this a welcoming place. The guy/gal that comes on here originally and posts on a grading thread - thereby recieving Ted's total dismissal - may in fact have the only complete set of tangos complete with advertising and packaging, passed down through his family together with stories hitherto unknown in the hobby. And we get a chance to scare him away by pissing on his first chosen post, or encourage him to stick around and share more of what he knows.<br /><br />Lee's lament to me sounds more of a despair at having lost control of the spirit of the place, that enough of his friends have left that as a group it has become almost impossible to set some posters in their place and make THEM change to meet the feel of the board. I understand it, indeed I can't believe the reckless feckless nature of a couple members who have assumed equal ownership of this board regardless of how little time and content they've added to it.<br />But who am I to remind them of the board standard flying at the title page. I only just got here too in the scheme of things.<br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think the board has always been considerate and welcoming to first time posters. I know it can be intimidating to make one's first post because nobody wants to look silly. But we've always gone out of our way to make newbies feel at home, and have always encouraged them to stick around.<br /><br />It's the chronic off-topic posters, together with those who can get a bit combative, that experience the most trouble and often leave. But the fact that people come and go is not unusual. There is a small group of hard core posters that have participated on a near daily basis for several years. So I'm not sure the fact that some people are leaving is a sign that something is wrong.<br /><br />Another important point is that threads that ask a specific question about vintage cards, for example: which colors in E94 are most difficult?, don't need dozens of responses. Once a couple of E94 experts have responded the question has been answered. But when a provocative topic is posed that demands someone's opinion, it's not surprising if it approaches or surpasses 100 posts, because each person has something unique to add to the discussion.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>To elaborate a little more on Barry's thought of the E94 thread. I think it is all right to ask another question within that post that would be tied to the E94 without hijacking the thread. That is how many good threads get extended and are more enriching.<br /><br />I would like to thank Leon for stepping in on the latest irrelevant thread. I hope he gets it by now. Now the rest of us just need not respond and it will go away.<br /><br />This place is a resource that can not be found elsewhere and I would hate to see it go to the crapper. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hey Lee- how do you do the frowning face? I can do the smiley and the blinking, but forgot how to do the other one. Thanks.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I would also like to add that after the initial confusion of his first post, I think that Jake did a nice job of giving the "newbie" side of entering the forum and it's current guidelines.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>LetsGoBucs</b><p>As an occasional reader and less occasional poster that considers baseball cards a hobby and something to be enjoyed, I'd say that there isn't anything wrong with some periods of time where there aren't as many posts "true" to the core of the cards.<br /><br />You can only ask so many questions about your favorite set and no need to repeat just for the sake of repeating. Yes sometimes there might be a lack of replies to a question - but if you don't know the answer to a question regarding the scarcity of E94 colors that doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to enjoy your hobby. Not everyone pursues their hobby on an everyday basis.<br /><br />Its easier to participate in posts that aren't so specific - thats why there are more replies (IMO). Does there need to be a balance - yes otherwise it becomes a different board. But personally I still see this as a vintage baseball card forum.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>"Not everyone pursues their hobby on an everyday basis".<br />Who don't vant to wear de ribbin?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Gil, that's funny. One of my favorite episodes ever.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>It seems like there is a fair number of response that imply if the board is quite they there must be something posted to keep it active. <br /><br />What is wrong with a quite board? <br /><br />To me this would be a good time for a infrequent poster to ask those card questions they don't seem to want to ask. <br /><br />Lee