Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>With much thought given to it I have taken the advice of so many respected board members and banned Jay Behrens, at least for the time being. I am sort of sorry it had to come to this but at the end of the day I do have to listen to the board members. The welfare of the board depends on these types of decisions. As Joann so eloquently put it I really do feel it is OUR board and not my board. I have gotten so many emails, it's not even close, about doing this. After many chances given, and the continued rants, I feel I was losing credibility with the board. Jay and Scott have their own board where they can do what they want. I will not let 1-2 bad apples spoil a good thing.. Thanks again for the support from so many board members. It's truly humbling. I know a few will disagree with this decision but I have spoken to enough people whom I respect, and got their input, that I feel this is not only warranted, but needed... ...Now we can get back to cards...best regards

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I guess the other board will be pretty busy over the next few days.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...try not to lose too much sleep over these kinds of decisions. It is not a democracy -- and, in any event, it is not a communist state of equal access with no profiteering allowed.<br /><br />If someone is being a jerk, by all means cut them off. The standard for expulsion from an internet chat board about old cardboard need not be set so high.<br /><br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Life is far far too short to be wasting time dealing with incessantly negative behavior.<br /><br />Leon, he has another Board? that he runs? How does he stay so active on this one, then? No matter. On to bigger and better things!<br /><br />How does everyone else like their eggs?<br />Slabbed or raw?<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Ed McCollum</b><p>cracked out of their shell.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Jimmy</b><p>I tried staying away as much as I could and the situation got real bad. When I started using this website I was hoping to use this as a resource for my new website - maybe a banner advertising in the near future, posting items in the B/S/T. I am a bit quiet when it comes to most of the trends as many become get to personal and way off topic. Let’s face it, I am glued to this hobby and will continue to support this board, but this is a hobby and we are talking about baseball cards. There are not too many places we can go and find the resources - both for collectors and advertisers. I myself still hope to advertise with Leon, because I think he runs this website very well and gives options to everyone in the hobby. Many of us are collectors first, but we are all dealers in some way or another because of our expertise whether we are doing eBay auctions, shows, buying and trading with one another. If I had a lot of money, sure I would be doing less dealing and more collecting, but the hobby is in my thoughts all the time. I am always trying to learn more and help others along the way. Everyone has the right to voice their opinions, but sometimes it just goes in the wrong direction.<br /><br />Jimmy<br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I've avoided getting into this fray....and at some point I lost track, but was Dorskind also banned....or,<br /> at least suspended ?

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>RIch Klein</b><p>Like I said; being called a liar is a severe personal attack. At that point, Jay either needed to apologize or leave. HE made the choice -- <br /><br />Regards<br />Rich

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Brian McQueen</b><p>Just wanted to add a small point of my own to all of this. You know, it sucks when Leon and I receive emails or see posts that read along the lines of “…you know, I’d post a lot more if it wasn’t for all the fighting and bickering…”. I think even Jimmy is saying that to a degree in his post above. This is horrible for us to hear because so many of the people that I’ve heard this from in the past are individuals who have contributed a lot to this board in the past and no longer feel comfortable doing so. I think the community as a whole loses out when people with knowledge and true passion for this hobby no longer are interested in posting their own beliefs, experiences and insight. I see really solid questions asked all the time that are really great questions, yet they fall straight to the second page right away because people with the knowledge or answer to that question no longer feel like contributing. Like Chris was saying in another thread, the “popular” threads on this board always seem to be of the “train wreck variety” where a bunch of fighting breaks out. These are the ones constantly bumped to the top (until they’re locked) and the ones that go over 100 for a post count. How often do you see us breaking the 100-post mark without a huge fight going on inside the thread? Seems to me that it happens very seldom nowadays. <br /><br />So when it comes down to it, we have certain individuals on the board that are making the forum a less enjoyable experience in general. I have nothing against Jay personally as I’ve always gotten along with him in the past, but at some point, you have to look at what certain individuals are contributing and if their contributions are mainly personal attacks and negativity, then maybe this forum isn’t the best place for that individual. Heck, maybe that person feels the same way since the negativity and complaining has to come from somewhere. I think it might be best to part ways with some of these individuals because I feel people should feel free to come here, post their thoughts and ideas, learn a little bit and enjoy their time spent on our board. If there are a couple individuals who consistantly prevent others from doing that, we need to take a closer look at things. If we need to lose a couple people for the betterment of the entire community as a whole, then I think it’s time we consider doing so. When I hear that people are afraid to post because they fear personal attacks and ridicule, then there’s something wrong with the system. When the number of threads consisting of fighting and personal attacks start to outnumber the number of threads covering solid hobby discussion, then there’s something wrong with the system. I certainly don’t blame Jay for all the fighting that goes on but I am hoping that this sets a precedent for behavior on the board. That maybe we’re a little closer to no longer having to deal with such a large amount of negativity, personal attacks and pessimism on this forum.<br /><br />Brian McQueen<br />redmaccie@hotmail.com<br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>At first, I felt some reservations because Jay B. shared the death of his babies with us...but it is clear that he was the same way before the miscarriage. So at least a temporary ban is a good idea.<br /><br />Peter C.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Joseph</b><p>God help us all!

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Bruce Dorskind has not been banned. He has promised to stop sending private emails to folks unless he is buying, selling, or trading. At least this stuff can be left on the board. I think, at this point, that was enough. If he doesn't keep his word then we will deal with it at that time....I do feel I have a responsiblity to protect board members from abusive people when it originates from board issues. take care...

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>If there are people out there who are too timid or intimidated to post because of something Jay B, Jim C or Bruce said then they probably should just disconnect from the internet or stay away from chatboards in general. I have no problem with Leon banning whoever he wants, but I expect all those folks who emailed Leon and are intimidated by Jay to start coming out of the woodwork to post now. It's now up to these lurkers to actually contribute something to the board other than the occasional drive by hit.<br /><br />edited out irrelevant content.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>As Brian and others have said (and I think that was Brian's longest and most eloquent post <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) this board should always be a civil place where people can come to visit. As Leon can corroborate with the daily hits, there are many people looking at the board each day who do not post. Some of them may be new to the hobby, and as such feel insecure about posting. But they may also be afraid to do so, because they see how easily someone can be attacked. They may feel that if they post something stupid, they will become the butt of somebody's sarcasm and nastiness.<br /><br />This is not the first time the issue of decorum has been brought up. And to take it a step further, and I discussed this with Leon earlier today, Leon does have one specific obligation to all his advertisers, and that's to keep as many people looking at this board as possible. If we make ourselves out to look like a bunch of uncouth yahoos, then we are going to lose a lot of that traffic.<br /><br />Jay is not the first to be banned, and while Bruce hasn't been, he likewise has an obligation to carry himself around here with a little more class. All of these distracting threads hurt the board. Period.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Well Barry now that Jay has been banned and Bruce has been warned I'm guessing the discourse with all those timid lurkers will skyrocket the conversation around here. All those who complained to Leon should be inundating this messageboard with questions and their knowledge.<br /><br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I want to point out how I feel with respect to something you said. I feel my biggest obligation is to the forum members and then somewhere after that the advertisers. The banners could go and it wouldn't hurt me too much, believe it or not. If too many board members left I would hate it. Otherwise I agree with everything you said.<br /><br />Dan B- I understand your feelings and I do want to clarify something if I wasn't clear or miscommunicated before. Of the folks that emailed me there might have been 1 lurker. The rest are regular board memebers saying they very much supported banning Jay. It was folks on the board every day but they didn't really want to get too involved publicly. Sorry if I mispoke ....regards<br /><br /><br />edited grammar....it still ain't good <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Well hopefully it does bring out some more folks to add input or questions. It is amazing to think of all the people that do come across the board daily and you have maybe what 20 people that might post on a daily basis? <br /><br />Just like the other week when Bill sold his entire T206 collection to a lurker...you would think that lurker would have some knowledge to add to the T206 discussions....and would be nice if folks like that would join in from time to time. <br /><br />If Peter C would just calm down and quit jumping on people <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Actually, I've noticed that you have been posting less on the main board recently. Any ideas on making posting more enjoyable for lurkers?<br /><br />Peter C.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>please allow me to post my dissent. I think it was a bad idea.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Bruce's posts were (and no doubt will continue to be) overinflated pomp, often interesting, but were never name-calling or threatening. I think most people lived with that and make fun of it as well and that was that. (Jay was of course a different set of circumstances.) Where I have a problem with Bruce was his garnering of our emails and their tone to the recipients. I happened to get a chance to read some and, although the ones I saw were not literally threatening, they could easily be interpreted as downright crazed and spooky. This seems to have occured over a protracted period of time. I hope the idea of that doesn't keep others way from here. All I can say is, Leon, if I ever have to appear in court I hope you are my judge! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Two questions.<br /><br />1. Why do you think it was a bad idea to ban Jay?<br /><br />2. If you were me would you have banned him?<br /><br />It's everyone's right on this board to express their views, per the forum rules.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>you had to do that but I think you gave him every chance....again.....<br /><br />I understand some people's concern about banner ads, I do. I also understand some people's concern about appearing improper when defending Mastro or other advertisers. I can see the point. But you can only beat the dead horse so long. <br /><br />Hopefully we'll have another period of just good threads until the next train wreck. Not a matter of IF but when............<br /><br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Leon - thanks for the follow up comment to the conversation about your duty to advertisers. Frankly, I thought it was a perfect example of what I talked about at length yesterday - the tiny little things that start linking advertisers' interests to board policies. <br /><br />Board decorum? Good. Becuase of duty to advertisers? No. Your only duty to advertisers should be to display their ads in the place and at the times paid for. Anything more starts down the slippery slope.<br /><br />And I would have preferred Jay not be banned. It's no secret that I support Jay in general, so obviously I would prefer to see him here. I think he does have a lot to add in terms of card knowledge and a somewhat unique collecting style and history.<br /><br />But I also know what you mean about having to defend yourself frequently. It can't be easy and Lord knows you have more patience than I do.<br /><br />Personally, I think that once Jay started the other board more of his posts related to cards and the hobby were reserved for that forum. Then the posts here about advertising, etc, were more isolated and less in the context of a knowledgeable regular contributor voicing a concern. He had been posting on general topics more the past few weeks, and I was glad to see it.<br /><br />But disagree as you may with his style, I firmly believe that his drive is his appreciation for this board. Like he said once, it's like home. Seriously. I think he really loves this forum, and has been advocating for what he believes is right. <br /><br />At least there's that. I vote for it to be temporary.<br /><br />Joann

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I can understand why Jay was banned....I too got tired of the banner ad discussion and I don't have a problem with it. I also understand Jay's point about biases, but hey it's Leon's board and Leon's the boss....over on Jay and Scott's page they are the boss. This ain't a democracy. <br /><br />I still think with all the lurkers here they should add more to the board...and I also think this board suffers a bit when there isn't a good argument going...not that I think it's healthy for the board to be arguing, but I bet this place gets more hits when there is a controversy going on...take Jay out of the equation and that equals less hits which in the long run equals less advertising dollars. My favorite posts are when someone chimes in at the 300 or so post mark to say "This BS needs to stop, I come here to leave my stress at work". Ummmmm.....then why did you just read 300 posts of "BS"?<br /><br /> <br /><br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dan- there's nothing wrong with a good controversial thread, with people exchanging heated opinions about something going on in the hobby. I think we all find them interesting and many of us participate in them.<br /><br />But there's that fine line where it regresses into train wreck mode, and that usually begins with the personal attack. There is no place for those on the board.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I agree Barry. Jerry Rucker came straight out of "LURKER" mode to make a personal attack on Jay and it went unnoticed.<br /><br />I call for a ban on Jerry Rucker.<br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry, Dan<br /><br />We can argue all day long about what is or isn't a personal attack. Leave it to Leon, he has a very thick skin, when he feels that there's a personal attack that's good enough for me.<br /><br />Peter C.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Peter, I assure you what Jerry R wrote was a personal attack worthy of Bruce Dorskind. I've also seen lots of personal attacks on you that have gone completely ignored.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>Can you imagine what would happen in corporate America if every single employee was allowed to openly, in a public forum, critique and micro-manage every decision that mangement made? <br /><br />It's one thing to talk around the water cooler -- quite another for Leon's every move (or lack thereof) to be openly debated and questioned.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>personal dealings with jay have always been fine with me eventhough it was just a handful, but i do believe he was trying to "call leon's bluff" on this to see if leon would back down and allow him to stay. well, jay got what i think he wanted. i dont think the board will suffer without him and maybe someday he can come back under certain circumstances. like someone said in the other thread, he does have some good input regarding cards.<br /><br />now on with cards!!!!

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />Leon is doing the right thing, you need to give people as much leeway as possible to express their opinion. And some of those opinions can get very personal. So far, I've been satisfied with his moderating.<br /><br />Peter C.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>ErlandStevens</b><p>I will certainly miss Jay's input on the board. Jay knows his stuff concerning cards (and many other things as well). I'd vote for a temporary ban, but bringing Jay back probably will result in another ban. Jay and Leon disagree on the ads. Neither is going to change his mind and I doubt Jay would let the issue slide if he returns. I don't fault Leon (who along with the others who run the board deserve all the praise they get) for the decision to ban Jay, but I'm not glad he's gone. It's just an unfortunate situation that doesn't have a clean solution.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Not trying to hijack the thread, but something Peter C just posted has me burning with curiosity.<br /><br />Peter - you just posted that so far you are happy with the way Leon moderates. Just out of curiosity - and absolutely no judgment of your position on this, really - what would you do if you weren't happy with it? <br /><br />Seriously, I'm genuinely curious. I'm working on that question myself. Because as much as people here say that all of these decisions shouldn't be debated, I suspect that may be because for the most part people don't have a big problem with Leon's moderating. I think if anyone with this opinion suddenly had a really really big issue with something, that person would absolutely feel it should be debated and we'd all hear about it. I'm just glad Leon allows it.<br /><br />Joann<br /><br />And I'm with Dan on the lurker issue. Could there really be legions of people dying to post that won't because they are afraid of attacks? And, like Dan, I also note that many of the controversial threads contain names I absolutely don't recognize.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Peter- you have been attacked many times on this board and to your credit you have never let it get you down. I admire that.<br /><br />Dan- I'm not sure the first personal attack necessitates immediate banning. A couple of warnings are reasonable. Joe P. attacked me many times, entirely unprovoked, and went at quite a few other people too. Leon cut him an incredible amount of slack but in the end he was too detrimental and had to go.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Yeah I do not understand the attacks against you Barry from Joe P. I didn't even realize he had been banned though. I also did not see any warnings from Leon when Joe was incessantly attacking you, although I may have missed them or he may have done it through email. I just think the "personal attack" issue needs to be meted out fairly if it's going to be used as a reason for banning someone. I expect Mr. Rucker will be getting a warning from Leon - even though he apparently has gone back and deleted the attack. Doesn't change the fact that many of us saw it and now have someone else to add to the list of people not to do business with.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Sad that it came to this, because Jay has an impressive wealth of knowledge about prewar cards and contributed more than most. However, there are two questions I have to ask myself. Firstly, was Jay's repeated badgering of Leon something I wanted to see on a continuing basis. Answer is no. And two, did I believe Jay was ever going to let this go? Given Jay's admission and I don't recall the exact wording, but it was along the lines of wanting to stick around the board to break Leon's chops, it wasn't likely that he was going to give this harassment a rest anytime soon.<br /><br />Knowing that he was provoking most members of the board, Jay persisted. He made his own bed.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Joanne,<br /><br />If I was dissatisfied with the moderating, I would bitch and moan and then if the moderators didn't make any changes, I would quietly go to a more satisfactory board.<br /><br />Right now, my only concern is that maybe one day only thick-skinned people will post.<br /><br />Peter C.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>I thought Marc S had a good point and I hope he doesn't mind me launching from it. Society has expected norms of social conduct in any given situation/place, and people who fall too far out of its expectations for too long a time are usually fired at jobs, shunned by their friends, or generally ostracized (no, not changed into a giant flightless bird with a long neck). Hopefully before that happens they are given warnings by their boss, or a friend tells them how they feel about their actions, etc. In this case it happens to be an online forum. Same type of rules apply. A person can't be around here and continually complain about the place and not know what to expect. Jay is smart enough to realize that. In this case Jay had an option and choose what he did. I think he did it to himself. In Bruce's case he ("they") chose to cease and desist.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Jay B went "bananas" on the "Banner" kick....but, my take on what really was bugging Jay, and was the<br /> last straw for him....was that vile email that brother Lee received. And, that the offender was just given<br /> a "slap on the wrist".<br /><br />I might be off base on this, but I was one who read that despicable email to Lee when he first posted it.<br /> If I had received such disgusting diatribe, or even worst if it was directed to a family member of mine, I<br /> would be damn furious; and, I would've demanded that the offender be barred.<br /><br />I think I speak for others on this forum when I say Lee Behrens is a great guy. Since I've been on Net54, <br />he and I have had some great T-card conversations (via emails) and some great T206 deals between us.<br />And, although he doesn't post as often as he used to, he always asks intelligent and thought-provoking<br /> questions on any given vintage thread. <br /><br />Finally, all I can say about this entire incident is...it's amazing how the "Arrogance of Affluence" in some <br />individuals can drive them to despicable extremes....and, more amazing is that such individuals, invariably,<br /> get a pass.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Let me be clear about this - Jay got what he deserved - and I do believe he was wanting to be banned. He was warned repeatedly and Leon gave him more leeway than I think he's ever given anyone. With that said I also think Jay had some good points about the appearance of a bias with regards to advertisers. It's really no sweat to me though because I don't really care one way or another....but with regard to personal attacks we've seen people get away with plenty here and the moderating of that seems a bit uneven to me.<br /><br /><br />edited to add: Good thoughts Ted, and I'll add that I think Jay has gotten more leeway than anyone besides Bruce. That email to Lee was despicable and beyond the pale and should have been grounds for immediate and permanent banishment.<br /><br />edited one more time to add that I have corresponded with Jay and he did not want to be banned and was not trying to get banned.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>1. Why do I think it was a bad idea? Well, first and foremost, I abhor censorship.<br /><br />I didn't find his comments that out of line, and although his delivery could have been better, I believe questions about your objectivity are fair game, as I mentioned in the locked thread. I believe you should be held to a higher standard, like he said. I would be happy to go into that further, but others claim it's a dead horse, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to do so. As for the allegation that you were a liar, that referenced e-mails between the two of you concerning REA, and since e-mails are off limits, I don't see how that one gets resolved. The rest was a rehash of prior battles over the ad banner debate, and even if it is concluded that such subject is old news, so what? Members should just go to another thread; in fact, we are often told that if something bothers us or we find it uninteresting, to just move along.<br /><br />I also do not find this thread very persuasive. First, I don't believe Jay was frequently at the epicenter of any 100 post threads that have caused some to sour on this forum--re-read those threads, and you will see others more prominently displayed. Rather, what got Jay banned were his pointed questions to you, Leon. Now I'm not necessarily saying you have to put up with it until the end of time or as it gets worse and worse, but I find it odd that you say you banned Jay because you had to listen to what the board says. As far as I'm concerned, if you were not offended or bothered, or did not think his shots at you were worthy of banishment, then that's the end of it. If YOU felt otherwise, then act upon it, but don't give us that had to listen to the membership line. That particlar explanation, combined with the insinuation that Jay was at the heart of many 100 post "trainwrecks" both sound like copouts to me. Incidentally, I find it amusing where people keep saying it's Leon's board and he can do what he likes. While I disagree with that, if people truly believe it, then why are so many sending you e-mails to throw in their bitching and moaning? <br /><br />Several other points are probably worth discussing, but I already started this 45 minutes ago and got a lengthy phone call I had to take.<br /><br />2. Would I have banned him? No.<br /><br /><br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I have, to this point, stayed out of this mess. I will first state that I agree with Todd that banning Jay was a bad idea - though in all honesty, I dont believe that his contributions will be missed because, quite frankly, he hasn't really attempted to contribute positively in some time. My problem with the banning is that Jay's attacks were directed at Leon and Leon decided to ban Jay simply because he was tired of it. Jay has an opinion and while its old and tired, his "attacks" weren't all that insulting. On the other hand, Ive seen others attacked - I mean truly attacked and insulted - without so much as a "tone it down" from any of the mods. This reeks of a double standard. A post above made an analogy to the workplace - well, certainly management would not stand for constant insubordination directed toward management. However, nor would management allow employees to go about attacking other non-management employees with abandon. So if you are going to stop one, be consistent and stop the others. <br /><br />Personally, I dont think the board needs to be free of all "attacks". Often times, they person attacked brings it on themselves (not saying this is the case with Jay/Leon). I just have a problem when most everything is allowed to go unfiltered as long as you put a name next to your post, yet Jay is banned simply because we are collectively tired of hearing his rants. <br /><br />Finally, a lot has been mentioned about a post generally being negative before it generates any interest. That is too true. Unfortunately, I dont believe banning Jay will stop the train wrecks or increase the quality of the posts that are actually on topic - to me, I'd rather see something being done to try generate more on topic posts and quality dialog within those posts.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>"Arrogance of Affluence" in some <br />individuals can drive them to despicable extremes....and, more amazing is that such individuals, invariably,<br />get a pass." well put ted <br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I responded to Todd in the other thread and asked him a question and now it's locked.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>Thanks to Leon for putting an end to the misery. Jay's words were way out of line and he pushed, pushed, and pushed until he finally got tossed. Todd its easy for you to judge Leon, but i guarantee if this was your board and you were attacked endlessly you would do the same thing. bottom line, the board is free, if people want to act poorly, they can go else where. when one person leaves another will take their place. Great Job Leon, Finally.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Tim Newcomb</b><p>Unfortunately, given my genuinely high regard for Leon, I have to agree that there appears to be a double standard here. I'm sure if I were Leon, Jay would be on my last nerve, and I really do sympathize. But no one has provided any evidence that Jay was going around making personal threats, attempting to terrorize people, as Dorskind clearly has been doing via email. <br /><br />Jay was expressing unpopular opinions and refusing to stop, which is the basis of our Bill of Rights. Sure, you can say things like "this isn't a democracy" (some people are suspiciously eager to say this), that "it's X's forum and he can do what he wants" and that "if X doesn't like it, he can go over to his own board" -- but frankly I find these comments disturbing. They do not square with the "it's your forum" position that Leon asserts repeatedly.<br /><br />Nor, as I recall, was another longtime board member banned when (off his meds or something) he began making personal threats and racist comments to various people in emails--worse than Dorskind, as I remember. This is before the time of many current posters, and I don't want to stir it all up again, but he's still around and to my knowledge, was never banned or penalized in any way. The old folks know what I'm referring to.<br /><br />It won't be the end of the world for Jay, Leon, or the board if Jay is banned, hopefully temporarily. But I do find it disturbing that the contrarian gets banned for unpopular opinions, while the psychos get slaps on the wrist. <br /><br />Tim<br /><br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p><br />I abhor censorship too. That's the reason I am so hesitant to ban anyone, ever. I have to really be pushed hard. Comments about objectivity with respect to ads are very fair game. No argument there. I agree Jay, at least recently, hasn't been at the epicenter of most 100 post arguments. You are dead wrong about why Jay got banned. He got banned for his incessant rants about the ads that would never stop. He had at least 2 final warnings before. Maybe when you give warnings you won't act on them. I will. I only listened to what the board said to validate what I was already going to do. If it was overwhelming to NOT ban him then I wouldn't have. I will continue to believe it is not "my" board as long as I moderate it. It's the members board but I do have to manage it. It would be worse than it is if no one managed it, I believe....<br /><br />Dan B- Joe P was banned a few weeks ago. I warned him in private emails to stop the attacks on several people. Nine days after my warning he did it again. For the record I emailed with Joe today and he is doing well. WE are cool between us. I like him. He just wouldn't do a small thing I asked. I am also in email correspondance with Jay B this evening.....I hope he and I can work things out. I can only take so much though before I have to do something. I only ask others opinions to make sure I am not way off base....<br /><br />I hope this clears a few things up and gives a little more of my thoughts on the subject. I HATE banning anyone...I really do....regards

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Wow. Josh and Tim and Todd - I wish I had even a shred of your eloquence. If I did I certainly wouldn't be struggling so much with the school assignment I'm working on this week! Dang. And it's not just that I agree with the substance of your comments. It's that they are so well crafted, constructed and presented. <br /><br />Tim, I'm so glad that someone else sees comments about not a democracy, X's board, etc are disturbing. Honestly, I felt a bit like a lone voice on that front and was starting to feel a bit like a kook!<br /><br />J

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Tim Newcomb</b><p>I do disagree with this one on principle, but I agree that Leon has taken an awful lot from Jay, that Jay did seem to be repeating himself rather than adding to the debate, and that someone has to manage us animals so we don't maul each other too badly. <br /><br />Joann: don't mention it, happy you find my post helpful. BTW, you underestimate your own eloquence. You are going to make a great lawyer--

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Well colleagues, I have no doubt that Leon speaks the truth when he states that he has acted in accordance with the wishes of the majority of the board. I hope that you are up to it; because from my perspective, I am watching the expertise of this board one by one walking out the door.<br /><br />You have a heck of a legacy. I sure hope that you have more than that.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Gil,<br /><br />Leon doesn't have to be judge and jury here. All he needs to do is to make a reasonable decision...and he's done it.<br /><br />Peter C.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Leon, I guess I find your last post just as disquieting. Jay got banned "because of his incessant rants about the ads that would never stop". So now it wasn't a personal affront but the subject matter that led him to be banned? What if I or anyone else wanted to revisit that issue and was as persistent as Jay--are we warned and then booted? <br /><br />Barry, I do believe that personal attacks could form the basis of someone getting banned, although I would probably have to see them reach a particularly serious level, have little or probably nothing to do with sportscards and be repeated after warning. I believe that Jay Behrens' posts on ad banners fails to satisfy two of those criteria.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>I think for the record it is pretty much known the majority of people Leon has talked to did agree with this decision. Can you make everyone happy? Of course not. <br /><br />I've been coming on this board now for two years. Honestly...I can't recall Jay having been involved in a whole ton of educated card discussions, unless most were based before that two year period. Maybe he was more involved before Leon became the moderator? I really don't know. Maybe he has and I just didn't notice...but for the most part I can name off most the people that do get in those threads. I'm not trying to speak badly of Jay...I don't know him for one. Have never conversed with him other than one time a few weeks ago he said something smart-alecky in a thread related to me and I emailed him privately about his comments...he never replied. <br /><br />I do think that Jay is probably extremely educated when it comes to cards (lord knows i'm not)...I just wish he would have shown more of that instead of going off on his crusade or throwing a jab here or there.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You know, there are times in life where you can either take door A or door B and you just have to make a decision. I know Leon gave this a lot of thought, and he went with his gut. He was fed up with what was going on. If he and Jay work things out he can undo the ban. It takes two seconds.<br /><br />I disagree with Tim, Joann, and others that there was some higher principle involved. No higher principle at all- he just got fed up and did what he did. I have no problem with it at all. If Jay can stop complaining about the same damn thing every time, then Leon will reinstate him.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2yVZCVLK3E" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2yVZCVLK3E</a><br /><br /><br /><br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>I hate to see Jay go...but you have to do what is best for all as the mod. I hope at some point the hatchet can be buried and he can come back again. I've been a moderator on a message board before..and its not a easy job by any means..you do it because you love it and care. This one seems to be one of those that require a lot of monitoring..and my hat is off to Leon. Despite some of the viciousness that rises up occasionally here..its still a wonderful place to come to, read, learn about and see some wonderful cards and stories. <br /><br />Ricky Y

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You are failing to take into account the other times I have been ripped apart by Jay over the banners. How much does it take to get to a point of taking action, in your opinion? I believe this is at least the 3rd time so far that Jay has done this. How many more times Todd?

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>Boy Josh hit the nail on the head for me.<br /><br />I think banning Jay was bad.....Especially since it was between Leon and himself.<br /><br />Jay had some very good points that others tend to ignore.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Such talk of lofty principles and ideals is making me hungry. What a utopian society we live in here! Alas, I was unaware.<br /><br />Leon banned Jay for the same reason Jay would ban Leon: he got sick and tired of him. As for Leon, I've ripped him pretty good out here over his Mastro stance; that being said, I consider him a good friend and an incredibly decent guy. You can disagree with someone and still like them. Really.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If this were my board- and thank goodness it isn't- here is how I would deal with a board member who I felt was out of line:<br /><br />I would look for a really, really tall stairwell, with lots of steps, and I would have the perpetrator stand at the very top and bend over. Then I would kick him in the ass really hard and watch him tumble all the way down, head over heels, like Groucho Marx did when he was kicked down three flights of stairs in "A Night at the Opera."<br /><br />Hey, I run a very tight ship! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Which two. As I see it, Jay (1) questioned Leon's character (by saying his posts on Mastro Auctions were influenced by their banner advertiser status) and called him a liar (the undefined REA situation) and (2) was asked to stop saying such things but persisted. I would think (1) falls under "particularly serious level" and (2) falls under "repeated after a warning". So as I see it there are your two. What am I missing?

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I believe Jay's comments were repeated, and I do not believe anyone else thinks otherwise. I do not believe his comments about Mastro rose to any level of seriousness that warrants banishment, and I think those comments were more than tangentially related to sports cards. <br /><br />You may say that Leon's character was assailed by the Mastro reference. I would agree to some extent, but again, I do not believe it is/was all that personal or serious. Fact is, if you are accepting any remuneration (and I mean anything more than a Happy Meal--certainly $30K would apply)from someone(s) about whom you later render an opinion or endorsement, you are subject to criticism about the objectivity of your opinion. Period. Does that make you an evil person whose opinion must be readily discarded? No, but it does not mean that you are above having your motives questioned either. Hey, with all due respect, Leon solicited opinions about banner ads before taking the step of implementing them, and he was told by some of how it might look and what misgivings others might have about it. He made the choice,and in my view, he has to take the bad with the good. Frankly, it's a logical extension of any conflict of interest analysis, IMHO, and explains why many times people excuse themselves from a position so as to avoid the appearance of impropriety.<br /><br />Mr. Lichtman, I do not disagree with you when you said Leon got fed up and reacted. My beef is with some notion that it was for the good or at the will of the board. I don't see that at all, and I'd rather it was simply called for what it was. And yes, you are correct, one can disagree with someone and still like them.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>if there's a poll, i'm against banning jay. i like jay/leon's symbiotic relationship (mostly jay needing to rip on leon <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>), kind of a checknbalance system.<br /><br />when everyone say it is leon's board...that is jay's whole argument that it should be a board of collectors for collectors, not this revenue-generating machine. jay may be over-estimating how much leon makes and how that affects leon's decisioning concerning board matters.<br /><br />i've met both and they're nice and fair people (and would probably have no problem sitting down drinking coors light together)...i support and contribute whenever i can to both boards and hope they can work things out. at the end of the day i just want to buy and talk about cards (preferably caramels) and thinking about how every year leon can afford to outbid me by 20k or so <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>there you go stirring the pot again Quan-- Coors light? You could have named any one of a hundred beers and an equal number of other beverages preferable to Coors light. The only thing fostered (pun intended) by sharing Coors light is a good case of the, well, you know.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>remind me to stand behind you whenever we head down a flight of steps. I don't want the boot. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>someone and CONSTANTLY baiting them to the point where they just can't win. That's what Jay did/does with Leon. He baits him to the point and pushes the issue to the point where Leon CAN'T walk away or Jay says he's hiding something. If he acts on it, he's a bad guy. I've seen MANY people disagree with something Leon does, portray it in a constructive manner and he takes it fine. Might not mean he changes his behavior, or, for that matter, even should change it but respectful disagreement is fine. It's when it crosses a line into the attacks and all the baiting. I think it's always bad to ban someone and when any other alternative exists, it should be taken. This is by no means the first time that this happened with Jay and I'm sure, over time, Leon had just had it....

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>For what it's worth, when I saw Leon's request that skydash e-mail him about choosing an auction house, my first thought was that skydash was going to hear a sales pitch for Mastro. I base that soley on what I view as Leon repeatedly going to the mat for Mastro and seemingly becoming emotionally involved while defending that company when negative posts were made. And I know Leon has argued to the contrary that he treats all the advertisers the same, and that's fine. My perception differs from what he's saying, but hey, maybe that's a shortcoming on my part. I honestly don't get too worked up over it.<br /><br />That being said, I'm amazed that Leon waited so long to ban Jay and don't blame him a bit.<br /><br />One other thing: I shake my head that when certain threads reach a certain length, someone will post a plea to Leon to lock it. And how some people complain so vehemently when contentious threads that aren't soley related to cardboard have a long shelf life. What's the big deal? You have to know 20-30 posts in just what a thread is about and where it's headed. If it bugs you, ignore it ... don't click on it! How hard is that? When I see a topic about "What's Stan Musial's rookie card?" or "What would you do with Barry Bonds' home run ball?" I know they don't interest me, so I don't read them. Again ... how hard is it to do that? If a topic has 150-plus posts, it must be interesting to quite a few folks. But just because a person doesn't like it or in their mind it's lived long enough, he calls for it to be locked? I don't get it. <br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>yea seems like everyone's had their say so i'm doing my part to help push the thread past 100 posts.<br /><br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Cat (ret.)</b><p>If there is a poll, I say Leon didn't ban him fast enough.<br /><br />If I didn't know better I would think Jay had a side bet on the over/under of how quickly he could get banned. Leon warned him over and over and over "to stop it." Jay went on and on and on.<br /><br /><br />P.S. Also, I hope Jay wins the lottery soon so we also don't have to listen to how little money he has [again].<br /><br />OK, I'll crawl back into my cave now!!! Promise.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Quan, post some youtubes and Seinfeld quotes and this thread will get over 100 in no time.<br /><br />If you're really daring, claim that you know more about SNL than Barry and Hal.<br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Thanks for the response. I guess this is something about which we'll agree to disagree. I don't disagree that Jay was not alone in raising the issue of the potential for bias or at least the perception of such when Leon instigated the discussion about whether banner adverstising should be allowed. Where we disagree pertains to how to interpret the totality of Jay's posts. It seemed crystal clear to me that he was accusing Leon of being unduly influenced by banner advertising revenue when making his various posts, that those posts would have read materially differently had there been no banner advertising. Yet other Board members who also opined Leon should not accept banner advertising never came close to such accusations. In addition, as I said, in regard to that REA situation he flat out calls Leon a liar. Those to me are what distinguishes Jay's case and at least in my estimation makes his cross the line. With that said, though, I will say that I greatly respect Jay's knowledge about card issues and the informative nature of many of his posts, and hope that in time this can be resolved and that he will be reinstated, and that should that happen he will concentrate his posts to card issues.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Dang. Add Corey to the All-Eloquence list of Josh, Tim and Todd above. In this case I don't agree with the content, but cannot help but admire the construction and presentation of the argument.<br /><br />Of course, Jeff L still wins in the most-humor-per-word basis among the lawyer types. And Jason L wins the most-humor-period award. hee<br /><br />OK. Enough awards for one night. Back to homework so I can try to finagle my writing to make it better!<br /><br />J

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I don't really have anything of value to add, I just want Joann to tell me I'm eloquent.<br /><br />-Al

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>joe p. deserves to be banned, i can't stand him myself, i would probably give up my entire collection for the opportunity to get him inside the octagon and i wouldn't be choking him out either!

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Eric, really? You do know that Joe is like a 75 year old little dude right?

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Don't I get a little credit for my Groucho Marx reference?<br /><br />Jay made his point about his dislike for the banner ads a very long time ago. He made it, and we all got it. He conveniently reiterated that point any time he disagreed with Leon on just about anything. If you looked back at all the times he protested, I doubt many of them were on threads that were even discussing banner ads. He has harangued Leon to no end on this issue and I think anyone has the right to say enough is enough.<br /><br />And keep in mind Jay has not been exiled to Devil's Island. He simply lost his posting privileges on a chatboard. Those can be reinstated by mutual agreement. Where I do agree with some of the dissenters is there have been worse transgressions on the board that have slipped by without being punished. Fine, Leon showed less than consistent judgment there. If it were me a lot of people on the board would have been banned sooner. But like I said, you wouldn't want me running the board. Leon does it well enough.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Tim Newcomb</b><p>Corey,<br />Your reasoning on the "two things" post escapes me:<br /><br />"[Jay] (2) was asked to stop saying such things but persisted. .... <br /><br />[this] (2) falls under "repeated after a warning". <br /><br /><br />Isn't the whole point of free speech, which Leon says he supports, that you can't legitimately be forced to "stop saying such things" that are unpopular? <br /><br />Let's see: X says something Y dislikes. Y warns X not to do it again. X does it again. Then Y can do anything he wants to X, just because X was warned???? <br /><br />Doesn't sound like free speech to me. <br />_________________________<br /><br />This issue seems like the crux of the whole Leon-Jay problem. <br /><br />On the one hand, I'm pretty sure Leon was a lot more patient with Jay than many would have been in his position, and that Jay did his position no favors by being so relentless in expressing it. <br /><br />On the other hand, Jay (or anybody) should have the right to express the unpopular opinion AS OFTEN AS HE WANTS, period. That doesn't mean you, I, or anyone has to pay attention to him. <br /><br />I for one did pay attention to his contentions, at least for a long time until they seemed to become merely repetitive, because I am deeply suspicious of Mastro and I don't like the idea that they might be given sweetheart status by those who run the board. I think Leon knows my view on this. I am also willing to agree to disagree with him on this issue without destroying our relationship. But I don't think anybody who disagrees more vocally should be stifled. <br /><br />And it's clear from this thread that a lot of regular posters feel it was not a good decision.<br /><br />But maybe a cooling-off period was necessary for emotional reasons. That I can live with.<br /><br /><br />

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>i don't know what he looks like or how old he is but i do know i can't stand him.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>In extremely short hand.<br />If anyone doubts at all that JayB style scything and demeaning commentary keeps people away from this board...don't.<br />From the time I came here first perhaps 2 1/2 or so years ago, JayB and Gil were on my a*& big time, and in fact did manage to run me off for perhaps 6 or so months. Weirdly enough, at that time JayB loved to exhort his efforts and claimed proudly his ability to run people off was in fact the VICTIM'S fault, that if they weren't able to hang around and be castigated and made mockery of - well they just weren't strong enough for this world.<br />I must have read him write that sentiment 30 times in 2 years. And he chuffed and lorded over it, even as the extraordinary mean spirited nature of his posts poured forth, and as apologists on this board wrote amazingly of admiring his 'straight shooter'ness' and 'telling it like it is'.<br />What a bunch or bull dust.<br />He told it like HE SAW it.<br />Not how it is.<br />But all along claiming virtue, and moral high ground, and not once did I see signs of a truly morally virtuous human being.<br />He was nothing but rude, and condescending, and bullying through it all, while currying a couple of friends on the board to share his venom with.<br /><br />And perhaps, once ever 8-10 weeks he'd show his zeenut Jim Thorpe, and every other month make some semi-useful suggestion to someone. Outside of that, he was a malicous canker whose 'charming candor' - whilst (<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) appreciated by Joann and a couple others, ABSOLUTELY scared off many other board members and read as nothing but school yard bravado. He, in my opinon, was 100% one of those people who would have been smacked in the mouth by any number of people (including myself) if he said to their face what he typed about them on this board, and surprise surprise - by private email. Yes, that's right, he was a player in that regard too.<br /><br /><br />Tim, and others who wonder if he had really reached a threshold.....<br />He reached it several times over, and it was only because you might not have been the target of his abuse that you might find contrary argument to his banning. No one, I will state with absoluteness no one, would have taken the number of shots Leon has from this guy - and just lived with it because this is America and people can say whatever they want.<br /><br />The guy was pure muck in my opinion, committed the 'Dorskind' act 100's of times over, just never so long windedly. Glad he's got his own aimoo box to stand on somewhere else so he can share that special personality with others who tolerate that 'quirky' kind of vicousness.<br /><br />There, just my O.<br /><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br /><br />Edited for one gramatical correction.

Banning people....one more down.....Jay B.
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />Why do you insist on stating incorrectly that Leon's take is $30,000? The man said on a number of occasions that his take is $15,000? <br /><br />Furthermore, are you saying that Leon could remain impartial with regard to his advertisers if they paid him in Big Macs but not with $300 a month? Are you suggesting the man has no personal integrity? No matter how much money he makes as moderator it is possible that he could still maintain a level of impartiality. There is no evidence that he is taking money for the sole purpose to argue on behalf of a rogue auctioneer. The burden of proof with such an accusation is on Jay and yourself and not the other way around.<br /><br />Based on the amount of hits this site gets, I think Leon could make a lot more money and I hope he does at some point, if only to defray the pain of threads such as these.<br /><br /><br />edited for typos<br /><br /><br /><br />