Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />One very saavy investor enjoyed a 258% return in less than 3 weeks<br /><br />He "stole" the Peckinpaugh card on Mastro and re-sold it 17 days<br />later for 2.5 times what he paid Mastro.<br /><br />Sounds like this guy should forgot baseball cards and move up<br />to hedge funds.<br /><br />It certainly appears that a well managed ultra high grade card portfolio<br />will provide a very satisfactory return, even for the discriminating investor.<br /><br />The facts speak for themselves.<br /><br />Mastro AUsction<br /><br />1915 Cracker Jack #91 Roger Peckinpaugh - PSA 8 <br /> Lot Number 448<br /> <br /> Number of Bids 9<br /><br /> Closing Bid $525.00<br /><br />E Bay Auction- 17 days after the Mastro Auction Close....same ID number<br /><br />1915 CRACKER JACK #91 R PECKINPAUGH PSA 8 <br /> Item number: 180157702308<br /> <br />Winning bid:<br />US $1,358.00 <br /> <br />Sep-16-07 19:01:00 PDT 17 bids<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List<br />

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You are certainly smitten with these hedge fund characters.<br /><br />Of course a few questions: how often does this happen, and why aren't the ebay bidders paying attention to the largest auction house in the business? Perhaps this was merely an aberration and not a sign that high grade cards double every two weeks.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Despite Mastro's protests to the contrary, their CJ set went for a song -- and Bruce's cherry-picked ebay sale doesn't disprove this.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>I do not know what it is but for some reason there are buyers that only use the auction houses and pay stupid money for some cards. These same cards that show up all the time on eBay for 30% of the price they pay. Maybe these people just want a simple way of collecting and not have to deal with the hassle of eBay and all the different sellers no matter the cost.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>William</b><p>Not trying to be picky, but the $525 did not include buyer's premium so they paid $630 for the Peckinpaugh.<br /><br />It appears they bought three others Cracker Jacks from Mastro. They basically broke even on one after EBAY fees, the other two they made a few hundred dollars on after EBAY fees.<br /><br />Not bad, as they made around $1,000 on the four cards.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Bruce, how about go through the last years worth of major auctions and track the resale of those cards. I'm willing to bet that you won't find any others with that sort of return, even a year down the road.<br /><br />Let;s look at the flip side of that deal you used. Whoever consigned the card to MAstro probably took a good hit. So from the Mastro consigner's viewpoint, it wasn't a good investment<br /><br />I seem to remember someone doing a study on PSA9 t206s over the past 5 years or so and it showed a dramatic drop in price in most cards. Once the registry boys get their cards, there is no one else there to drive price unless they place bids themselves to try and artificially keep price levels high.<br /><br />I've got a good reputation as an astute buyer and even if I had a huge bank account to buy whatever I wanted, I wouldn't be "investing" in high grade cards.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Marty</b><p>Hello everyone although I am a newbe on this forum I have been a serious eclectic baseball collector since 1985. We are all investing in an educational pursuit as well as hoping as we go that someday if so inclined and we sell we might make a couple of bucks....BUT as everyone always says buy what you enjoy.........But having said that what do you all feel are under valued at this point? <br><br>GO YARD

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Oh my god you mean someone made $728 dollars in 17 days wow that’s almost like $1.78 an hour each day WOW!!! Must be nice I’ve always wanted to try one of those really big sodas at 7/11, you know the ones like all the other multi-billionaires drink, imagine living on that side just for one day dropping that extra buck on that jumbo soda, the chicks, the parties ahhhh one can dream I guess. <br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/small/1981_5130_1_1%20copy.jpg"><br /><br />**Added the Wagner for Jeff**<br />

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>See? That's funny.<br /><br />The kid has major skillz, what can I say?

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Kravitz</b><p>I think there is more money in buying low grade or rare/scarce baseball material. High grade cards will not always be high priced. The market is thin and if a couple guys back off of a card in an auction it could mean a whole lot less to the consigner. <br />Jay is right, the guy who consigned those CJ's took a bath. <br />I think you should be a collector first and an investor last. Buy cards cause you love 'em, when you invest, buy your kids education, real estate or stocks. DK

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycle</b><p>What does a 17 day flip variation in sell price have to due with the card being in high grade? Why couldn't this variation have happened if the card or card(s) were in lower grade?<br /><br />The Mastro consignor likely lost money on his consignment, which could be used as equally valid evidence that high grade cards are a poor investment. 2 sales: 1 lost his shirt, one made lots of money. Explain how a 50% occurrence of losing money when selling high grade is an example of stellar investment potential.<br /><br />Lastly, is this an example a self fulfilling argument, in that the example was use only because it proved the argument? If it did not sell for so much, would it have been presented as the defining example and would the thread have even been started? There are a plethora of examples of buying high grade cards from Mastro and selling them for a big loss on eBay.<br /><br />Just seems to be a lot of loose strings to the initial argument. The initial conclusion may be correct, but the evidence quoted doesn't prove it or really much of anything.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jared</b><p>If you've got the money to flip, you can make a profit, regardless if it's cards, real estate, etc. But it takes money to make money, so I'm not that impressed. In fact, it makes me furious when I consider that the guy who outbid me on a card I really love is probably gonna turn around and sell it just to make a few bucks. <br /><br />BTW, it doesn't HAVE to be high-grade cards. By my observation, the ebay auction prices of SGC 10-30 T206 HOFers this summer have been very volatile.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>....keep in mind the thread about 33 Goudey prices being flat to lower over the past few years.... Those are high grade prewar cards, too. When you consider the amount of shill bidding that goes on in both the auction houses and ebay, good luck making a lot of money when you flip your cards.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bruce's example is arbitrary as he just picked one that made the buyer look smart. I'm sure there is someone else who bought a high grade card in the same auction, put it on ebay, and sold it for less. So is he an idiot while the other guy is a genius?

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Ya know, I have always said there is a fine line between being an idiot and being a genius. In many card situations that line is 1 bidder.....

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Well analyzed <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycle</b><p>A problem with eBay, is you can never be sure the item sold.<br /><br />The problem with auctions in general is you don't know how much shilling is involved, which makes auction prices unreliable to bogus and is most likely to hurt law abiding investors. If you're buying shilled items and selling without shills, your returns likely won't be so pretty.<br /><br />If an item sells for $11,000 on eBay, it's impossible to know what it means. It might mean the item sold for $11,000, it might mean it didn't sell and it might mean that it sold by $3,000 of the price is shills.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>At What point does beating your head against a wall begin to hurt? <br /><br />Lee

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...a glass door today. Cleanest thing you've ever seen. No stickers to point out that there was a door there. Walked right into it. My forehead hit first -- and let me tell you, it hurt like HELL!<br /><br />Left a nice forehead grease circle on the door. If they don't clean it, someone might be able to avoid walking into it because they'll see my grease mark floating in the air.<br /><br />Now I know what it feels like to be a bird flying into a window. It totally sucks, by the way.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I've sold low to mid-grade cards with similar profits in similarly short periods of time. One or two perhaps- and I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who has been so fortunate.<br /><br />I've also taken a hit in short periods of time as well. So- interesting stat, but I'm not sure it really means anything in the grand scheme.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>"It certainly appears that a well managed ultra high grade card portfolio<br />will provide a very satisfactory return, even for the discriminating investor."<br /><br />I would never knowingly disparage anyone publicly here, and so I hope the person who consigned the card that was "stolen" at Mastro is not a board member.<br /><br />But what about the person who was the consignor? Was he/she a savvy investor, too? Was he/she the same person who paid $1,160 for a PSA 8 Peckinpaugh in the Mile High auction in November of 2005? Because if he/she was, then they bought the card for $1160 and sold it for $630, right? Savvy?<br /><br />You can sell 100 shares of GE tomorrow, and before you sell it, you know what you're going to net. You can consign a baseball card to an auction house, and you have no idea what it will sell for. It all depends on how many people feel like bidding on your card, and how much money they're willing to spend.<br /><br />Case in point: from what I can see, if the person who bid $1358 happened to get caught in traffic on the way home, or was watching television, or just didn't feel like bidding, the underbidder would have won the card for about $780. And if the underbidder didn't feel like bidding, the second underbidder would have gotten it for $667, and the seller then would have taken a loss on the card, once you factor in shipping.<br /><br />So, Bruce, where you guys see a wildly successful, well-managed portfolio, I see dramatic swings in prices, where the "value" of a card is subject to fluctuations of up to 100% and a market that's so thin that just three people can break it. To me, that's about as wise an investment as multi-level marketing.<br /><br />Buy cards for whatever reason you like, but I'm pretty comfortable with my decision to buy them because, well, I LIKE them.<br /><br />-Al

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Al, quit making sense.<br /><br />I like applesauce.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>I think the point is well taken in the sense that there are inefficiencies that result in some cards going relatively cheaply in auctions; and someone who really pays close attention can make money taking advantage of those. That said, I don't think it proves any general proposition that cards -- high mid or low grade -- are necessarily a good investment at this point.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>WELL said.........

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>One (as opposed to we) can't base a conclusion on 1 or 2 cards. As other board members said earlier, one would have to get a large sampling, preferably of several types, and track them over time. (and probably by the time one figures it out, the card market's swung again.)

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p> Bruce is correct -- the better conditioned cards one can afford will bring you the best returns long term. However, as has been pointed out, specific instances can be either very positive or very negative. But, if you are willing to wait 20 years, then just as the stock market has been for that period, you will do very well.<br /><br /> Somehow, though, I don't think one specific high grade goudey card is the best barometer of long term value. We believe in a diverse long-term view.<br /><br /> Regards<br /> Rich (and his alter-ego)

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>"But, if you are willing to wait 20 years, then just as the stock market has been for that period, you will do very well."<br /><br />No, you could do very well. Or you could do lousy, depending on whether you have to cash in during a slump. Or after your CEO steals your company blind. I bet there are lots of Enron pensioners who aren't so keen on long term investing in stocks. The stock market isn't a lock; if you want guaranteed rates buy bonds. Otherwise, you take a risk.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I agree with Bruce's main point although I don't think the example he gives necessarily justifies it. The biggest threat to the continued escalation in high grade vintage cards is if collectors/investors lose confidence in the grading companies ability to detect altered cards and if the belief spreads that there are a growing number of altered cards in graded company holders.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Well Jim, the perception that altered cards have found their way into holders is already with us.<br /><br />The road from here is for collectors to have renewed faith that the grading companies have gotten better in detecting this.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>I think I'll get some popcorn.<br /><br />And just my 2 cents...Any rare card, whether it be due to pristine condition or there just aren't very many of them, are probably going to appreciate. Low grade stuff with a decent image probably will, too. I'm not a high grade collector by any means and I haven't lost any money on the stuff I've sold. Keep your purchases within reason and you'll be fine. Now have fun, dammit.<br /><br />And my investment tip of the day is large brokerage firms. Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros. If you make any money on these, send me 10% of the net profits to my paypal account. I trust you guys!<br /><br />--Chad

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p> You constantly mention that collectors are afraid that their high dollar cards in high grades have been tampered with. Yet, you are never willing to take that risk yourself to see what, if any, of your cards have been tampered with. I understand the concept about not wanting to take a loss; but until you are willing to in that sense, put your money where your belief it, you may never be able to affect that change you desire.<br /><br /> I know at one time, the idea was broached that SGC come to your house or vice versa (20 minute trip) to see about cards in a few sets which you believe may have problems. I would love to see that come to fruition just to see the results and frankly, to give YOUR viewpoint more credibility. <br /><br /> Regards<br /> Rich

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I'm aware of that--I said a "growing" number.<br /><br />Rich,<br /><br /> I'm sure you would but my goal in collecting isn't to make you happy, its to make me happy and if and when I do it, it will be on my own terms, not yours. And my idea for reforming the hobby does not involve going back and checking every card that has been graded--its to positively affect things in the future.<br /><br />Lastly, I don't believe any of my sets or cards have problems.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>All cards should be slabbed as "Auth." Certainly the grading companies can tell the difference between an authentic card and a faked on, can't they? On second thought... <br /><br />This scheme will eliminate the shadow of doubt over altered cards and will create an interesting market. But it will also cut down the amount of material we have to talk about. Oh well.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You said<br /><br />"Lastly, I don't believe any of my sets or cards have problems."<br /><br /><br />I am not sure what to say about that.....I guess you have changed your opinion from reality to something else...This is in no way, shape, or form a personal attack. It seems we are all playing nicely on the board lately and I couldn't be happier about it. I just find it interesting that you have changed your mind...<br />

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />While I believe that there are altered cards in holders and that by the law of averages I must have some too, there is nothing to make me believe that any of my sets or are more likely than others to have altered cards.<br /><br />I was trying to respond to the poster that said give them(SGC) a few cards in sets that you believe may have problems--there are no cards that I own that I believe may have problems.<br /><br />Clear?

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p><br />I think what Bruce's anecdote shows is that, due to a thinly traded market, there is an arbitrage opportunity in vintage baseball cards. It does not speak to whether vintage baseball cards are, or are not, a good investment.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I'm not sure how this became a discussion about grading companies and alterations, as I'm not sure that was Bruces's intent when they made their original post. Although I certainly do not speak for them.<br /><br />My contention is that while the buyer of the card in question seems to have done well on resale, but there's no indication as to whether the consignor did well on the sale of that same card. How can a single card serve as an example of a good investment and a bad one, both at the same time? It seems to me that the market conditions for the sale of cards have as much to do with the current climate and the universe of potential bidders as they do with the item itself.<br /><br />Clearly with any collectible item, there will always be interest in obtaining the "best" of something, whether it be best condition, best player, best manufacturer, or whatever. From an "investment" standpoint, if you're going to look at our hobby that way, I suppose there will always be a buyer. However, it's difficult to use the sale of one card in particular to make such blanket statements. It could be said, for example, that there have been plenty of recent instances of high-grade prewar cards selling for less money than anticipated - and that might represent a softening in the overall "market". Such a softening could be due to a softening in the greater economy, a weakining of confidence in the quality of the cards or holders they're in, or any number of other factors.<br /><br />I'm not smart enough to identify what the best "investment" is in this hobby. I consider myself lucky to be so dumb, because it enables me to have a hobby I can enjoy without freaking out too much over the investments I make that backfire. I just spent $300 on three brandy-new boxes of 2007 Upper Deck Goudey cards, ripped them open and probably have about $20 worth of cards as a result. But damn, I had fun.<br /><br />-Al

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I have to say in my current auction I'm still getting strong interest in scarce low to mid-grade cards, but a lot of my NR MT cards are soft. So where is all the interest right now in this higher grade material? I don't see it. I still say it all depends on who is bidding. Put another PSA 8 Peckinpaugh on ebay, and now that the winner of the last one has his, the next one might go for $700. Who knows who is going to bid on any given night?

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Anthony</b><p>Barry-<br /> Are the bids on the low grade scarcer cards coming from all different people, or a few guys rebidding? Ditto on the higher grade stuff?<br />Rhetorical question until the auction is over, but I wonder if it is a bunch of different bidders driving up the lower grade scarcer stuff, is that indicative of a wider collecting base for such items, and a smaller base for the higher grade items?<br /> Either way, it ain't over til it's over. But it would be interesting to see how many unique bidders were on any given lot, and over time what conclusions could be drawn.<br /><br />edited to add my name.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. shanus</b><p>I think Peter S and Scot have nailed it -- in any market there are inefficiences that can lead to grossly above normal returns, which are hardly indicative of general market investment prospects. To truly put Bruce's hypothesis to a test, one would need to put together a basket of high-graded cards from a variety of issues, hold them for a period of time, then see what the ultimate return is net of transaction costs (e.g., net return from selling them after the auction house's cut is subtracted). Given the extraordinary appreciation over the past several years coupled with the potential bombshell if and when the extent of slabbed altered cards becomes exposed, it is very unclear to me how good a long term investment these cards are. For my nickel, I would invest in (1) geniune rarities (i.e., not condition rarities) where absurb price fluctuation based on de minimus condition variation does not receive such prominence or (2) high graded cards with impeccable provenance thus leading to market confidence the cards have not been altered.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I think the biggest indicator that the initial premise was flawed is that Bruce has failed to come back to this thread and argue in support of his position.<br /><br />For what its worth, I completely agree with Al - very good, well-reasoned posts.<br /><br />

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>But it seems The Group has a vested interest in all of us thinking that high grade stuff is the way to go. These posts seem kind of like advertising to me. This really doesn't bother me--I like Bruce's posts, actually--he really hits the buttons and gets people talking around here.<br /><br />--Chad

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Find the nicest example you can at a price you can afford. If investing, hope for the best and try not to be too disappointed if things don't go as anticipated. Don't forget to enjoy the card, as if you wouldn't mind keeping it in your collection.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Unless they are buying the hi-grade cards for re-sale I would think that their touting them would be counter-productive.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>My mistake if they don't, though. If they don't resale them, then the constant trumpeting of how smart it is to collect them confuses me as it would only serve to drive up the prices of things they want to buy. Not that my being confused is indicative of anything other than my normal state of consciousness.<br /><br />--Chad

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Anthony- the bids seem to be from a wide range of bidders. Some leave ceilings so that will create multiple bids as others participate. I've actually had a few bids in the last hour on some of the higher grade material, so there's a slight improvement. But I am clearly seeing more interest in scarcity than condition.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Barry: I think over the long haul true rarity is always going to trump condition. Look at what a beater T206 Wagner sells for. Look at what people pay for beater Zeenut DiMaggios. Take a major player from a rare set and it will do very well over time regardless of condition simply because there is so much demand among advanced collectors for those cards.<br /><br />Chad: I agree that the Dorskinds are engaging in a bit of apple-polishing, but that seems to be de rigueur for them. <br /><br />Al: absolutely spot on. <br /><br />The CJ is a great example of perspective and perception. Great "investment" for the buyer; not so much for the seller. Bottom line is that someone got railed in that Mastro auction, someone got lucky on that ebay auction, because the right people were watching that day. Simple as that. I saw all those CJs in Mastro and thought about bidding but, frankly, I was in overload by then from all the auctions plus ebay plus the recent National. The result doesn't mean jack about "the market". Heck, even when the stock market is crashing, someone is there buying and selling and someone is making money. If you want to look at overall "market" health you need to look at a big sampling of items. How are the totals (selling prices and numbers of different bidders) for all the myriad auctions? There's your measure of market health. <br /><br />One thing that is overlooked is how well you can do with popular cards in grades that average collectors want. T206 is the primary example. So many collectors that even a vast supply is absorbed and desirable HOFers continue to escalate in price. I know since I've been shopping for Cobb-Young-Matty-Speaker and have been watching the price trends.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>One thing Bruce has accomplished is he now has almost everyone using the first person plural and "whilst." He might convert us all yet.<br /><br />But I do wonder why he doesn't come on to defend his point. He started a provocative discussion and the majority of posters disagreed with his analysis. So why abandon the thread? Why not come back and defend your position, if you truly believe it?

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Barry...<br /><br />I think Bruce is a good guy, I would just assume it takes a few days for him to write up a couple paragraphs in response while having to insert his language and crafty words into it....

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>The Dorskinds are probably too busy trying to snipe the high grade commons that they are trying to flip.<br /><br />Peter C.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />We will see how it ends up at the end. I believe condition trumps rarity and I believe the results bear that out. You see a psa 10 of any player pre 1960 and the price goes nuts--don't see that happening if a common beater card appears nearly to the same extent.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Well of course a PSA 10 will garner tremendous interest and bidding. It's state of the art.<br /><br />What about a card that is a sharp PSA 7 but not particularly rare? How would you feel about that? Most people would qualify that as at least pretty high grade.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Depends on the vintage--for me no but I do not collect many of the pre-war sets.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Here's an example why rarity trumps condition. If people are given a choice between a beat up t208 Fireside and PSA 8 t206, I don't think there are too many people that would take the t206.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />I hate beat-up looking cards--If the Fireside is that valuable I would immediately sell it to buy a psa 8 or 9 card. Not saying thats the right answer for everyone but its how I feel.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, Jim: it really depends on the individual card. I collect as many high grade cards as I can get my hands on but some of my favorite cards are ones residing in holders with a grade of 5 or less that are just very difficult to find. Depends on the card.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Aaron M.</b><p>Great points in this thread. I wholeheartedly agree with those who have pointed to the vast difference in price simply having two determined bidders competing against each other can make. (Especially given that there is a relatively small consumer base for most of the vintage, higher-end cards and memorabilia we collect.) I have had the pleasure of being part of several one-on-one bidding wars that have significantly driven up the price on an item to the point where I will almost certainly lose money were I to re-sell. <br /><br />I have two competing views on the whole "investment" topic. On the one hand I try and follow the adage to collect what I like regardless of value. But on the other hand I bet I would probably spend maybe a tenth of what I normally do if I didn't know that most of the items I buy will hold their re-sale value. <br /><br />I think that's the real question for investors vs. collectors. If you knew what you were buying had no monetary value and you would never see that money again (kind of like travel -- great experience, but you can't recoup the money), how would it effect your buying habits? <br /><br />If you would spend significantly less then even if you consider yourself the purest of collectors, you are an investor in a large way.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Good points Aaron, and it's hard to imagine too many people spending thousands upon thousands on baseball cards and not thinking even a little bit about what they are worth now, or may be worth in the future.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I assume my cards will be worth more. So far the assumption holds true but the price of these cards have to come down sooner or later.<br /><br />Peter C.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I kept saying that in the late 80s and never it never happened except on the high end of the market, which Bruce seems to love so much. Prices just tend to flatten out when the market gets soft. When the economy goes bad, people quit buying collectibles. The true collectors will stick it out, but the casual collectors will bail. The hardcore collectors won't let prices on mid and low grade stuff fall much because they will want their fix.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Dave S</b><p>"He "stole" the Peckinpaugh card"???<br /><br />Years ago, an old lunatic gave me some advice...as to whether or not cards should be considered worthy of investment. I think his crazy principle held true then, still does, and always will...<br />You're never going to see CONSISTENT returns with the "Peckinpaugh's" and commons of the hobby. If you're looking only from an investment standpoint..short-range or long-range..low-grade or high-grade..limit your collecting to 8 players: Babe, Honus, Ty, Walter J, Matty, Cy, Gehrig, and Joe J. Forget the Peckinpaugh's, forget the commons...regardless of condition..<br /><br />To those of us that enjoy collecting for the chase, and the FUN it entails, how much we'd miss by limiting our collections to these 8 players. But think we'd always be able to unload without a loss...<br />Not so true with the Peckinpaugh's...<br /><br />

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Greg Theberge</b><p>A Collector purchases an item for his or her collection for the love of an item, the history to which it represents, and the hobby to which it belongs. It should not be purchased for the monetary value that is placed on it.<br /><br />Obviously, it's wiser to purchase items that are well researched and that will at least hold their value in the event that a collection has to be liquidated, but, that being said, there's nothing wrong with purchasing items of lower value, or quality, if, indeed, this is of interest to the collector, or, all that he or she can afford.<br /><br />In my humble opinion, to belittle collectors, or collectibles of lower monetary value, makes an individual shine more as a pompous ass than a collector. It never ceases to amaze me how certain individuals think nothing of their fellow collectors and what they collect, or how they would feel about their own personal interests, by the remarks that they make. A true collector can find interest in anything about a hobby, not just specifically items that they would like to acquire for their collection. A huge part of this hobby is the comaraderie one shares with their fellow collectors, not what the monetary worth of their "portfolio" is worth. <br /><br />I've been a "collector" of multiple sorts for 35 years. Not until I started reading this baseball card forum have I ever come across such arrogant (as well as ignorant) statements at times. "Whilst" the monetary value of our (I don't mean me as a plural, I mean my father and I - this forum needs more psychologists at times) collections have become substantial over the years, it is never THE topic of conversation. Sure, some items may be very costly to add to our collections, but that's just a part of collecting. It's not the reason for having a collection. Most of the time, we feel embarassed at the amount of money we have spent on items, not boastful of it. <br /><br />By the way, I personally think the original transaction given for this post is a ridiculous example for the arguement. In the collecting world, you do well at times, even at times, and downright blown away financially at times. If "high grade" was the critical factor in this transaction, how does the original consignor feel about selling it so low, in addition to the commission that was taken off the top of the sale? I know I wouldn't have thought my "investment" paid off.<br /><br />Anyway, maybe it was the "yankeefan51" that set me off..it's been a bad baseball week. Sorry for the rant <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />edited for spelling<br /><br />

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Tim Newcomb</b><p>Greg-- very well said. There's something pathological about the Dorskind need to parade the superiority of his method of collecting.<br /><br />Tim

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>edited to try not and get too personal....

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Nieves</b><p>edited.....too personal in nature...

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>I don't get involved in the Dorskind weirdness, but since you guys brought it up, I too believe that this repeatedly displayed contempt for those less well off, is pathological. Doesn't take much to figure out this behavior is compensation for feelings of inadequacy in other areas. Poor dear.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Aaron M.</b><p>I imagine that Bruce grew up with little money or surrounded by those who had more money than his family (and he in turn viewed those people as "better" than him) did and it has left him with a vast inferiority complex. So for him, it's not enough to have money, and it's not even enough that he tell everyone he has money, but that he actually feels contemptuous toward those who don't have money. Really, Bruce just hates himself. <br /><br />I think this is why Bruce uses terms like "whilst" and refers to hismelf in the plural. It's how he imagines cultured or well-heeled people conduct themselves and that is what he so desperately aspires to be. <br /><br />Bruce would make for a fascinating character study.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Quit picking on Bruce, I've recieved e-mail from him before, he's just a very sensitive guy just like I am or many of us are. If you show him respect and simply explain your position to him, he will respond in kind.<br /><br />Look at it this way, I assume he speaks the same way or at least in a similar way that he writes. If that is the case, then don't you think there have been many people that have told him it's better to use "I" instead of "We."<br /><br />He starts feeling that people are just making fun of him, just like kids who make fun of other kids who have accents. Once you treat him that way...Bruce just tune-outs and thinks that we are just like other unfriendly kids. If that happens, he begins tuning out and becomes unresponsive.<br /><br />Peter C.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Peter, how many times have you made fun of Bruce over the past few weeks? I think you've repeatedly referred to him as "The Dorskinds" and even yesterday you gave him a jab. Are you like Sybil?

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If Bruce and I were having a conversation in person and he used the term "whilst" and "we" (for himself) I believe I would just start laughing. I don't hate or dislike Bruce but the way he acts and says things about less fortunate folks isn't very nice. You reap what you sow....

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Somehow I suspect Bruce does not speak that way in public -- at least to me, it's fairly clear that he's just having fun with those on the board...

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>When you speak to Bruce in person he uses "I", and I have never heard him use "whilst" once in 20 years. This is done purely to rile the board.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />You're absolutely right I have poked fun at Bruce and he sent me an e-mail and I politely responded. Bruce e-mailed me back saying he understood. He strikes me as being a civil and reasonable guy.<br /><br />Peter C.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>"Ya know, I have always said there is a fine line between being an idiot and being a genius. In many card situations that line is 1 bidder....."<br /><br />Truer words were never spoken Leon. <br />I have sold cards on ebay, usually because I have upgraded, occasionally because I have lost interest in a set and moved on to another one and my cards have not been PSA 7s, 8s and 9s, but it usually worked out quite well. Sometimes you take your lumps and shake your head but sometimes you catch lightning in a bottle like the VGEX T206 Rhoades arm extended I sold for $500 which I bought for $40. Bruce, that arbitrary transaction was an abberation and I use it as an example to show that the Peckinpaugh card was a similar one and not indicative of the value of flipping high grade cards only.<br />tbob

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Peter, don't let the nice guy act fool you. If you want more details, email me and I'll tell you about his dark side.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Aaron M.</b><p>Peter, Bruce does not speak that way in real life. I saw Bruce's little youtube-type clip for some kind of collector channel he was helping to promote and he sounded just like you or me. <br /><br />Barry has said he met him several times over the last 20 years -- what say you, Barry? <br /><br />Never mind, I see Barry already responded.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>Investing in High grade pre-war one must seriously consider the difference amonst cards with the same grade, ie. not all PSA 8's are created equal.<br /><br />Examples: All other qualities equal, the near 50/50 both PSA 8 card could command upwards of additional 30+ percent over the 60/40 PSA 8 card. Or the rough cut PSA 8 vs. the non-rough cut PSA 8. Or the slight tilt cut PSA 8 vs. the straight PSA 8.<br /><br />Be careful - One can lose quite a bit of cash if not in tune with the differences within the grade.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Many people assume a certain persona on the boards--this is Bruces--who cares. Its the quality oof a person's posts that matter and Bruce is one of the most thoughtful posters on Net54.

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Thoughtful?

Why It Pays To Invest InHigh Grade Pre-War Cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>LOL -- I think Jim means that Bruce's posts are thoughtful.